I WISH my H “got it” the way you do Steve. Very happy for you and that you are doing things for the right reasons. I aspire to do the same. :-)
DV6, unfortunately I didn't get it for almost 19 years.
I look back and realize how bad of a husband I really was. The fact that she stayed with me is really amazing. Again, this doesn't excuse her from her behavior, but just recognizes that my 50% of the relationship was very very badly done for most of the 19 years.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
RE: the SSM issue. That is definitely describing my marriage. In the beginning, that was not us at all. But after the kids arrived...at first it was just sheer exhaustion and then I think it got to be a bit of a habit. It was always on my mind, however, but I just kept thinking it would good better and, there were periods of time when it was [and I would say to myself... Oh yeah, right, I really love sex with my H. We should definitely make a point of doing that more often.], but then we would just go back to the routine again of barely seeing each other and choosing to sleep instead. I don't know if I am a "typical" woman or not but for me there were a couple of things that really affected me when it comes to sex...1. Body image. There were many points in my marriage when I just did not feel attractive and I couldn't imagine that he would be attracted to me either. 2. The emotional connection...this is CRITICAL for me...that started to go with the birth of our children and by the time they were about four years old, I sensed there was a "wall" between my H and I and I couldn't seem to break through it. He just seemed distant. 3. My H rarely, if ever, made advances toward me [but had no problem seeing the issue as my fault]. Not sure why since when he did, I rarely, if ever, rejected him but maybe he thought the distance was on my end? Whatever the case, that emotional connection is so important to me. Good conversations, physical affection, expressions of appreciation, compliments, etc... indicators that my H was interested in and felt an attraction towards me. These were rare and it took its toll. And of course, for the last four years, my H has slept most nights elsewhere. Pretty difficult to ML with someone when they are physically somewhere else. And now my H says to me that he has no interest in sex with anyone let alone me. He is numb and shut down. Anyway, I have a huge amount of guilt when it comes to that part of our marriage. I knew it was an issue, for both of us. I should have dealt with it head on and to this day, I don't know why I didn't. Fear, maybe? Not wanting to hear from my H that he is not attracted to me? Anyway...my two cents. I hope you and your W work this part out. I know that the times when my H and I were in sync in this area, we were very happy with each other. Best of luck!!
Wow DV6. that pretty much mirrors my SSM too. You aren't secretly my W are you? LOL
I think a lot of it is, and I don't know your husband or not, but the Nice Guy Syndrome's covert contracts. Men are terrible at this. Where they do a nice thing or two (buy you flowers, take you to dinner, rub your feet) and expect that you will jump them that night in bed. I know this thinking was pervasive in me. Many nights I would lie there hoping she'd initiate for a reward of something I did right. And when it didn't the resentment and bitterness would build up even more.
Your perspective on 1 and 2 are really good. For most married couples I think aspects of both of those are present for the W. And if you think about it, due to #1, #2 is even MORE important. But Hs get tired of being the one to always initiate so they pull back on the emotional connection, either consciously or subconsciously, and this just perpetuates the problem.
I know in my sitch, I would be bitter and resentful, so I didn't want the emotional connection. I'd pull away and treat her poorly, or ignore her, etc. As Dr. Phil says, I began to make that which I feared most come true. After all, what woman wants to sleep with a man that treats her bad, criticizes her, ignores her and is just generally a jerk? Vicious circle!
Thanks for this DV6. I think this is all important for all LBSs from SSMs!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Thanks Steve. My H definitely has the Nice Guy Syndrome combined with an intense fear of conflict which I have come to learn is "any conversation that could result in being remotely upset with him". Needless to say, we rarely had a conversation about anything that was bothering him. He did bring it up on BD#1 but more of an accusatory "we don't have sex" with the general inference that it was all on me. Huh? Part of me took responsibility and the other part was like, "WTF! When was the last time you even came near me in that respect?" I wish I had known about this site or Michele's books then as I probably would have done more to address it but at the time, I saw it as a symptom of the problem and not a problem itself that needed to be fixed. Of course now I am nearing menopause so who knows how that is going to wreak havoc on my libido. Not that it really matters at this point since my H has declared himself "asexual", so to speak. Anyway, if we ever get back to the living together stage, this is something I am going to make sure we deal with. But that seems a long way off at this stage.
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage? That's probably a poor way of phrasing it, but I think you understand what I'm asking. I ask because W and I were talking a few weeks ago, and where I have accepted responsibility for my 50%, I really don't think she has, and it's making me wonder after so many years whether I would even like to R.
M:23 T:26 Me:53, Wife: 60 S:18 D:16 filed 7/16 W moved out 4/28/17
Thanks Steve. My H definitely has the Nice Guy Syndrome combined with an intense fear of conflict which I have come to learn is "any conversation that could result in being remotely upset with him". Needless to say, we rarely had a conversation about anything that was bothering him. He did bring it up on BD#1 but more of an accusatory "we don't have sex" with the general inference that it was all on me. Huh? Part of me took responsibility and the other part was like, "WTF! When was the last time you even came near me in that respect?" I wish I had known about this site or Michele's books then as I probably would have done more to address it but at the time, I saw it as a symptom of the problem and not a problem itself that needed to be fixed. Of course now I am nearing menopause so who knows how that is going to wreak havoc on my libido. Not that it really matters at this point since my H has declared himself "asexual", so to speak. Anyway, if we ever get back to the living together stage, this is something I am going to make sure we deal with. But that seems a long way off at this stage.
DV6, my W just turned 50 (in March), and has been perimenopausal for a few years now. In the last year she is more in full blown menopause. It seems to have resulted in an increase in her libido! In fact, a lot of our problems were she was feeling more and more sexual, but due to my bad behavior didn't see it as something she could satisfy with me. This was why she started looking to find a job so she could get her own apartment. That is when I came across the statement "Women don't need their own place to find themselves or work on the marriage. They need their own place to sleep with other people." That statement was so profound and hit me like a train. It was such an epiphany.
Anyway, just wanted to share that with you.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Steve, I'm curious. How did you get her to own up to her part in the failure of your marriage? That's probably a poor way of phrasing it, but I think you understand what I'm asking. I ask because W and I were talking a few weeks ago, and where I have accepted responsibility for my 50%, I really don't think she has, and it's making me wonder after so many years whether I would even like to R.
Jim, this is a good question. And one that, unfortunately in my case, doesn't have a good answer. Also, I am not sure it is a question that should be asked (I'll explain).
My best answer is that it was through DBing. When I started DBing (let her go to get her back, 180ing on bad behavior, GAL, and detaching) I think she started to take stock of what she was doing and how it would affect her life, and our D's life. It would have been easy for her to continue to feel justified in her decided course of action if I continued my boorish behavior and made no changes post BD. It was very gradual, over time that she started to wake up to the fact that our MR could be rebooted, and we could both be happy together.
As with most, she was leery of my changes at first. She'd seen that movie before, and as most WAWs, she wasn't sure if they were real and lasting and permanent. So for the first 2 months I don't think she was ready to own her own behavior (SSM, checking out housekeeping-wise, no longer trying herself in he MR).
A couple of key things:
First, MC. I think MC was where she saw me really taking ownership of my problems in the marriage. Until then she saw it as me "trying to convince her of my changes". But when I didn't excuse or deny my own shortcomings to an unbiased third party I think she started to trust that I really got my part in all that had happened.
Second, when I told her fairly early on in the MR that I had spoken to a lawyer, I think this surprised her. When she asked a few questions I said that if it came to it, I would be filing for D for adultery. (The jury was still out on that really, since it was never a PA and only an EA.) But this was the first time I saw her kind of realize that her actions were not justified. That turning the energy of the marriage outside of the marriage wasn't the way to try to fix things.
Since R I have seen a lot of 180s from her. She is back to making family dinners for all of us. Her housekeeping has been much better and she is making it a priority. We've been intimate regularly. So while there was never a moment where she said "Hey I realize what my part in the breakdown was." Her actions are speaking louder than her words. Words are just words, so I wouldn't put a lot into what she says. Even if she said "I realize my part in all of this" if her actions don't match that it doesn't mean anything.
The reason I say you shouldn't really ask that is because my fear is you are looking for a magic bullet that would bring about an AHA moment to your W. If that is what you are looking for then you will be disappointed because those types of things don't happen very often in sitches like ours. There isn't a lot you can do or say that bring about that kind of realization. In fact I think pointing it out will cause most WASs to deny, justify, avoid, etc. In other words it will have a negative impact on your sitch. Further, if you are looking for an AHA moment from her I think you will be disappointed. While I believe the majority WASs know deep down that what they are doing is wrong, human-beings have an unbelievable ability to do what I just said above: deny, justify, avoid, etc. Plus this is enhanced by certain personality types and flaws.
Hang in there Jim. Deep down she probably knows her own part. If you continue to DB, especially being consistent in your own 180'd behavior, she'll eventually come around, I believe.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
If there is a magic bullet imho I think it’s “choice”. We are able to choose our actions and furthermore, to choose who to love. So we must face our own demons and live with the consequences of our actions. So there is no more deny, justify or avoid in our true life. You must find willingness and commitment (ty S!). And LOVE, life is all about it.
Stay strong guys! Love you all.
WW H(me): 53 W: 48 T: 27 M: 22 S: 18 Piecing since 03/2016 Saw the light in the storm
