Married 12 years, 2 kids. Wife gave up job to put me through school and had the kids along the way. Things seemed to be going smoothly until this summer. We went on vacation ans upon the return, W tells me she wants to separate and is in love with a family friend. It turns out this was strictly an EA.
I move out, file divorce then move back in to the guest room 2 weeks later. I initially don't know how to handle things then wise up and deflect any attempt to anger me.
We argue like cats and dogs for 2-3 weeks then suddenly start hanging out again. I stated helping more around the house and with the kids. Along comes 3-4 sexual encounters and going out on dates. Then I move back to the bedroom and we completely rekindle, put wedding rings back on and talk about filing a nonsuit for the divorce. It is filed, but just before processing i find she is still talking to the OM. She wanted to meet him in person to say goodbye. This stalls things because I found out by snooping in her phone and she doesn't trust me again.
Reading the common 6 stages of MLC I think she's in between withdrawal and acceptance based on past behaviors.
Here's the current situation.
Taking a "step back" in the relationship to see how it goes. We are both in individual counseling and hope to start couples sessions in the next month. She has been fighting mental illness (depression and/or bipolar) for years, but doesn't want to admit it.
She says marriage and family are the best thing for us but may want to be out on her own. Will not give a simple "yes" when prompted the question if she wants it to work.. She's been a SAHM for 8 years and wants to work so she can contribute. She swears it's not a death sentance for the relationship. When we arrived back together I admittedly smothered her with affection. It may have been too much. Some days are hot and some are cold. There is no sex or kissing currently. We are in the same bed and she has not asked me to leave. I was telling her I love her periodically but have stopped. I have tried peeling back on hand holding and hugging but she still allows it. We still go out on "dates" but little or no affection. She occasionally reverts back to earlier phases but quickly (in a day or two) reverts back to current phase and all seems ok. She has not talked to the OM in over a month. I hope for the best but am planning for the worst.
Some questions:
Would a MLC wife act this way if she knew she dis not want the marriage?
How effective is completely stopping all affection if she still allows it?
Do counselors typically pick up on MLC?
I plan on being supportive for as long as I can. I love her dearly and fear she will spiral out of control if I leave her.
Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support)
I have read a good deal of books on the subject and can give you some suggestions when you are ready.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
I will give you a bunch of homework assignments to read. This POST is under reconstruction and we will be working on this as time goes by, this is the most current version.
Now you have all the tools to read. Let us know how your doing and if you have any questions.
I suggest that you read the entire thread in the resources. You can also pick out some people and read their whole story.
Depression is the key to the whole thing and it is always present!
Believe none of what he/she says and 50% of what he/she does.
I would not ask him/her anything unless you can have no expectations. Sometimes asking them questions will be thought of as pressure. You do not want to do anything that can be thought of by your H/W as controlling or pressure.
Lets not worry about him/her. Lets work on you! Start your homework assignments. Something to DO while you are on moderation. GAL. Eat, sleep, exercise and take a deep breath. In general take care of your self first. Detach the single most important thing to DO.
Your H/W has given you a gift THE GIFT OF TIME use it wisely
Sorry you find yourself in this place in life. It is shocking and disorienting. First this may be hard to hear, but she is most likely nowhere near withdrawal or acceptance. Sounds like she is in early stages and is fighting the inner turmoil. What you are eeeing is cycling. So first and foremost detach and stop looking for signs. If you don’t you will find yourself whiplashed and thrown around emotionally.
Give her as much space as she needs. In fact try matching her exactly as how she approaches you. If she seems distant pull back, if she emotionally gets close match her and no more. Have no expectations, demand nothing, and show her no pain or concern. No “us” talk. She probably has a lot of inner pressure and anything you do will feel like pressure.
Having said that nothing you do will have much impact on what she is going through, she will need space and time. And despite the fact that you were most likely the person who helped her now you no longer can do that. Read the links above and learn as much as you can. And settle in for a long ride, stop trying to see how far along she is, it may be a longer process than you want right now.
As for therapists most are not aware of MLC, so beware. Find one who is and understands it rather than dismisses it as pop psychology. This will most likely be one that is older. Also marriage consoling is not productive, but if she is willing to go to individual but with a therapist wh can detect she is in a mid life crises may help. One that doesn’t realize this may do more harm.
The stages of MLC are just a guideline and timeline for the emotionally turmoil that crisis people are in. Each person is unique, therefore, their crisis will be unique because of their personalities and childhood experiences. My personal opinion is that your wife has slowly been entering into crisis mode and she's still waffling about staying versus leaving. From your posting, I do not see much in the way of replay. As the stages are linear, they can bounce back and forth from anger to withdrawal and back again. Depression is the main ingredient of MLC and when she does hit the really dark depression, she will withdraw from everyone and everything that she held near and dear. She's not done that thus far. When they have a crisis, it is because they weren't allowed to go through the normal "growing periods", i.e., 20, 30, 40, etc. We each go through this and if not allowed, well...a larger crisis will take place down the road. Also, MLC is about revisiting the past, a past that will take them back to the time where they were emotionally stunted. This can happen when an authority figure does not show them admiration or recognize them for what they've accomplished or who they are. It could stem from abuse of any kind...but they have to go back to that time, revisit it and face their demons before they can begin to grow up and heal from those things.
So, what do you do? Give her plenty of space and no pressure. Do not pursue. No expectations as the woman you are dealing w/is now the exact opposite of the woman you use to know, i.e., mirror image. Has the spending by her ramped up? If not, it very well may...so watch your bank and credit card accounts. As for her spiraling out of control...if she is in crisis, she will do it no matter if you are there or not. There is nothing you can do to stop it once it begins. If you attempt to snap her out of it, she may come back to reality for a bit, but eventually she will enter it again and that time will be far worse.
I would suggest that you attempt to keep the focus on you and your children. Find things to keep yourself busy and just give your wife the time and space she needs. She may not show it, but she does feel guilty and ashamed for what she's doing...but it is something that she has to go through in order to grow up.
As for counselors recognizing MLC, many of them are aware of "changes in one's personality", but MLC is not a recognized disorder by the medical society.
As for showing affection to her...follow her lead. Actions always speak louder than words.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I've had time to think of a broader timeline of unhappiness.
June 2016 we move out of state. Denial: stops taking interest in cooking, family activities, pours resources into fixing up new house. Family Notices shed changed but cant place how.
Fall 2016: Anger: fights break out left and right. They escalate and are frequent. Extremely irritable, mentions feeling stuck and trapped and entertains getting a job.
Spring 2017 Replay: EA begins with family friend. Starts smoking cigarettes and marijuana occasionally. Jan 2018: says we need to separate and shes out of love with me. We work on things which seem to be getting better by spring. Things are stagnant but we march on with "normalcy" July 2018: withdrawn from family/friends for months. final bomb is dropped. I dont love you, get out of the house, I'm moving on with the family friend. No chance at fixing it. Family friend is 40 and lives with parents, has no job, does drugs, smoke like a chimney, anti government sovereign citizen. She feels he is her kindred spirit and soul mate, and is ok for children to be around. She is high class, wont even go to grocery store without being dressed up. Family is very upset and nobody can talk any sense into her.
Summer 2018: Depression: after I move in we have many heavy conversations. She feels like her life has been wasted and shes a failure. Marriage is a failure, kids will be failures. She wanted to be left alone, was secretive with phone and computer, locking bedroom door, etc...still did not want to talk about her problems. I was still the brunt for EVERYTHING. She has 3-4 horrifying, catastrophic breakdowns over the course of the month. Admits she is depressed and has thi gas she needs to work out. Her parents divorced when she was 3 and it took a huge toll on her. Was looking for a job then puts on hold as feelings start to change.
Withdrawal? August: things are better. We put house on market and reconnect. We go out for meals, sit out by the pool for hours every night talking and laughing. We get closer and closer, occasionally having sex. Still no kissing or "I love you" She meets with EA and sets up stage to end it.
Sept: goes to family members house for 1 week break. We flirt, text back and forth and she comes back stating she loves me, did soul searching and knows being together is best. Periodically asks if we moved to fast. I state we did it organically with no pressure and can work out kinks in counseling.
Oct: things going well. She has behavioral change, I snoop on phone and find she wants to meet with EA, and they've had a secret meeting spot and met 3-4 times during initial phases. She says loves me, wants it to work but we need to take step back and reevaluate, as I violated her trust. We took vacation together and did well. Later in month, she mentions work again. I stupidly ask if it's for her to be on her own and the lots of hell opened with irrational thoughts. Bankruptcy to get out of debt, struggling in a low paying job to teach herself lesson, focuses talk on negativity. Next day everything is fine.
This MLC journey is definitely not a sprint...but a marathon. You will need to dig deeper for patience and understanding. Read all that you can on MLC and depression. Visit the other threads because each and every poster has something to offer and you just might find some "pearls of wisdom" that will help you while you are on your journey.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Ive read a lot of stories here and many of them are slightly different
A DB coach once told me to notice the behaviors that pull them Closer as well,l as the ones that push them away This way I could practice the ones that seem to help with the R
Its hard to really pin down where we stand with the MLCer especially when she keeps expressing the desire to work at it and is willing to be with you- I don't have any experience with that end because when My XH left , he moved in with A partner, eventually M her and D her. But there was never any talk of ever coming back-
Job and Cadet probably know everything there is to know about MLC, You will see the road she takes, but it usually takes time if it is true MLC 2-7 years
As time passes, you will get information about her choices...In the mean time, it is best to focus on you and kids be supportive and cordial, helpful and follow her lead-
Be positive maybe take up a new hobby-You will know more later
It seems she could turn in any direction and she seems confused-
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
So sorry to see you here, Hamburg. And to see you doing what all of us do -- think that the stages will last much shorter for your W because she is different. I was sure of that for my H. He was so wonderful and loved his family so much, I was sure that his would be shorter than two years. I'm heading toward year six now, and I would say that he had made some progress through the tunnel and then went back to replay this past spring and rebombed me. He just filed, and is doing it a horribly vicious and brutal way but refuses to leave.
No one is telling you that to scare you or make you feel bad, but to encourage you to stop noticing what she is doing. It's incredibly hard to do. From this side of the screen, it looks like you are extremely focused on everything she does and says and looking for signs that you won't have to suffer anymore. This will only hurt you even more than the suffering will hurt. (And it hurts, I am so sorry to admit it!) The best way to protect yourself is to assume this is going to take years, and make your own life. Don't notice the EA. The guy is such a loser, trust that she will figure that out in time. It's harder when the OP is not so clearly a loser, but even then, anyone who would be an OP is a disgusting person to begin with, and knows only the worst side of your spouse.
If she turns out to be a quick MLCer, wonderful. But if not, you can release yourself from the slavery of watching her every move/sign far sooner than most of us did.
If you are Christian, I recommend signing up for Rejoice Marriage Ministries. You will see a lot of cynical comments here, or doom and gloom. A Christian perspective is a good antidote to keep a clear head through this h#ll.
Last edited by Gerda; 10/29/1810:27 PM.
I believe I will see the bounty of the Lord in the land of the living. Wait for the Lord with courage. Be stouthearted, and wait for the Lord.
I am sorry you find yourself here. There are some very kind and compassionate people here with much hard earned wisdom willing to share their knowledge. You are among friends.
I will add my view and agreement with the others. As long as their is another person involved, your spouse is in replay. They have to sort out what ever troubles are driving them to these fixes. Your W has displayed quite a few replay behaviours so far.
This is a marathon and it takes a while. There are averages and statistics, but really no one can know when the MLCer will exit replay and start towards finding their way out. They may unfortunately bounce back and forth for a while also.
You have stated that W set up stage to end things with EA. Then a few months later started up again. Perfectly normal, don’t loose hope. Breaking up is hard to do. She will need to purge him and that will take time. Unfortunately, there is no way to know if she is actually working towards that or still running.
To your specific questions MarvinF and job gave excellent answers.
My own take.
An MLC W does not have a normal way they behave. No set behaviour to tell us what they are thinking or planning. They are confused, and running on pure emotions. Their behaviour will be all over the place. You cannot count on it to mean anything. Your W will adamantly mean and defend what she believes - right up till the moment she doesn’t. An MLCer can change views quickly and frequently, it is dizzying to attempt to keep up with them.
Asking the effectiveness of anything during MLC is pointless. Nothing you say or do will have much effect on her journey. She must go through this on her own time and on her own path. We really cannot speed it up.
From my limited experience most, by far, of the counsellors do not believe in or understand MLC. Most people do not. Until you experience this, see it up close, it sounds so unbelievable. Aside from places like this forum where LBS gather, heal, and share knowledge, folks just don’t know.
I do like your plan to support her during this. Remember you did not break her, therefore you cannot fix her. Give her space and time - lots of each. Focus on you and your two kids.
From what you have posted, to me it looks like W started to run / replay in spring 2018. Most times bomb drop signals the start of replay. The time up to then looks like the emotional turmoil that a trigger event started. Understand this is not your fault, she has damage deep inside which was destined to come out. This would have happen with or without you.
I do hope you continue post, share your insights, and ask questions. These are probably not the responses you were hoping for, I am sorry.
All these people are good honest people who deeply care. They have a lot of wisdom that was earned with sometimes a very high cost. I consider myself blessed to be within their company.
Take some time to consider what has been suggested.
I am looking forward to speaking with you again.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks everyone. Y'all are extremely helpful. We had a nice dinner the other night at which point I told her she is troubled and I made a vow to support her and will continue as long as I need to. She squeezed my hand tighter than I have ever felt that night in bed. It is painful though. I came home tonight and got yelled at for asking if her 7pm coffee was decaf or regular. 10 minutes later we were talking and joking and having wine on the back porch. I have reserved myself to accept the ups and downs and realize the negative comments are the demons talking, not my gentle, caring and golden-hearted wife. During the initial phases all I had was hope. People thought I was crazy because I focused on small things she said and knew her actions were not equal to her words. I stuck through it, we came back together (through whatever pretenses those were). We still share a bed and wear our wedding rings. I thought for sure she would have removed hers at this point, as she removed it early on. She uses distancing words when discussing divorce or being on her own and these things give me hope. The EA is now over, I have spoken with his family (they are family friends). I am close with her family too and talk with them frequently, as they are very concerned about her. I know focusing on the small things can end up hurting me but they do give me strength to pull through. Meanwhile, I am caring for myself. I've hit the gym 5 days per week since August and lost 25 lbs. I am a physician and get hit on by 2-3 nurses per day. Not going to act on that but it boosts my morale. I've started listening to positive podcasts and music. Most importantly I engulf myself in my children when I'm home and have an excellent network of supportive friends and family. I've peeled back with the lovey dovey stuff and wait for her actions. We're both caring for ourselves and its helping us grow as a family. The kids have never been happier.
You told her she was troubled and vowed to support her indefinitely
You do not need to diagnose her
Let her diagnose herself
You also do not need to speak of or make vows about the future
Just live in the present
Last edited by job; 10/31/1801:02 PM. Reason: edited a word for Gordie
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
Had the pleasure of speaking to a DB coach on the phone. It was fantastic. He does tend to think it is more of a WAW or maybe a hybrid of the with MLC. I did note if I drop ILY while hugging or holding hands she squeezes tight and gave me the green light to drop it every now and then.
I did pick up on a new pattern now though. It goes Daggers thrown---->my deflection---> 5 minutes later her asking if I'm ok in order to see if her insults affected me or not.
Example from lunch today. I admittedly put my hand on her thigh and attempted to hold hands. She did not reciprocate. I got full while eating and got quite. She interpreted that as I was upset she didn't reciprocate.
Her: does it eat at you when I don't reciprocate these things. Me: No. Her: it has to, you are getting upset. Me: 1. Dont name my emotion. 2. How would it make you feel? Her: I dont think I could be with that person any more Me: laughs with a sarcastic "OK" Her: I dont know where we stand and you're trying to change my direction toward you Me: OK. What do you want. Her: you to acknowledge you get upset when I dont reciprocate Me: sorry, I dont. You're arrogant to think you control my emotions. Her: I'm not arrogant Me: yes you are. Her: I dont want to be touched right now, ok. Me: cool.
We get home, I shower. Shes in the bathroom probably to see if I am crying. I get out and tell her I'm going out for a bit.
Me: leaving now Her: gives me big hug. I drop ILY and she squeezes very tight. Followed by "Are you ok" Me: -smile-, I am great, thanks. See you at dinner.
This pattern of things happens every 3-4 days or so. It always involves something about my emotions or a future without her. It is followed by a check up 5 minutes later to see if she had any impact. Is this typical behavior?
Whether she is a WAW or someone in MLC, we would follow the same advice here. Yes, her behavior is very typical and that's why we say "focus on you". If you continue to focus on her, it will drive you nuts.
Have you read Sandi's Rules? Here's the link to her thread:
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I am taking good care of myself. In fact, this convo occurred 3-4 days after I went semi-dark. I've spent the past 3 months focusing on her and now its "me time"
This does lead me to ask a question about her again though. About 6 weeks ago she told me she was depressed. I have been trying to help her, she is in counseling too. But she needs to see an MD and get a mood stabilizer. How in the heck can this be conveyed to her? She had issues with depression long before this crisis stuff began.
One thing they really do not want, is to be diagnosed. You are correct, mood stabilizers, anti depressants, etc.. would probably be helpful. However, in her view, there is nothing wrong with her. Even when she may start to think there is something wrong she will dismiss it and convince herself otherwise. This continues until they get tired of running, hit rock bottom, or something, and hopefully awaken.
My W actually said she thought she was going crazy, but she realized that a crazy person would not think they were going crazy, so therefore she was not going crazy.
I also suggested she should see a doctor. Ha, that went over like a lead balloon.
She was one confused woman. I say was, because now she is deep in replay and she has no room for confusion. Her fantasy must be maintained at all costs. So things like self reflection, getting a check up, etc... are out the window.
The chances of conveying something to her are slim. Even if you do, it probably would only stick until she spins again. She needs to get to a place where she sees the benefit of seeing a MD for herself.
I love job’s saying. I heard it a few times.
Keep focus on yourself. Focus on her and you will go bonkers.
You’re doing good.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
So after some trial and error it seems going dim seems to work. Going completely dark backfired, I think because part of the marital turmoil was my emotional unavailability. She is now initiating all physical contact and conversations. We did this about 2.5 months ago with the difference now being 1. We are sharing a bedroom 2. We have established saving the marriage is the baseline. She wants nothing sexually and I guess I am now a guy trying to rebuild a friendship. This is the hardest part for me to navigate. I continue to individually grow but it is painful to go out on a Saturday night to a dinner alone.
Some thoughts I have that perhaps one can chime in on.
-she doesn't know if she wants to be married to me but certainly wants to be married to my bank account. There is no crazy spending but she is a SAHM and has no income of her own. I don't think bringing this up would be wise unless there is something egregious.
-my brain tells me I need a drastic move.....like move out of the house, or proceed with the divorce negotiations..... but my heart tells me I cannot. The children were made aware of the initial plans to divorce and the subsequent reconciliation. House is currently for sale. She has not mentioned even leaving the bedroom so this step would likely be a terrible idea. I just need some answers but I know I have to be patient.
-regarding divorce: I filed in July. Last activity was in August. It is stagnant and set to be dismissed in jan-feb. It was to have a nonsuit filed in Sept but my snooping (and discovery of continuation of the EA) led to my "inappropriate behavior" led to cancelation of that. Now it is hung over my head every 3-4 days. HOWEVER, since I have been deflecting and set boundary for those discussions to be held in front of a mediator they have stopped-for now. It takes her 20 minutes to pick from a restaurant menu so at this time I know there is no way she will pull the trigger herself. This is where the "I understand if you want to end it. I don't like it but will accept it" discussions come up every now and then.
-for myself. I have started to dress nicer when I go out. It boosts my confidence and feels good. I am still hitting the gym, etc... I honestly started to make changes (in july) to win her back but they have made me feel good on the inside and I am doing for myself. Now they have become routine. There are good days and bad days. I am trying to shut off her emotions controlling mine but it is hard. I am gaining strength with this each day. The "act as if" strategy is kicking in slowly.
-snooping. This was habitual for me once I felt the EA had started some time ago. It is like an addictive drug. I have stopped and realized no good can come of it. It was hard to quit though.
180s. Probably the hardest thing to do. It is hard because there is no one size fits all. My coach gave me the green light on occasional ILYs, during a hug only. I do this once every 2 days or so. But if we are in a friendship stage I may stop. This is where it gets complex. A friend wouldn't say ILY but a friend would not sleep in the same bed, do the dishes or take you to lunch, gym, etc.... several times per week.
All in all I want to save the marriage, but don't know how long I can continue like this. We have both taken to reading. I am reading fantasy and of course DB. She is reading self help stuff and biographies. Nothing to save the marriage. She keeps pushing back on dates to start couples counseling. She obviously has demons she is facing in her IC and is waiting for some of those to be dealt with. If I push I am "controlling." Last convo we had we will start by the end of the month, but I'm waiting for another excuse as to why we cannot. There may be a point I have to give an ultimatum but that is a last resort......
I am glad you are seeing results w/going dim. Stay the course for now.
Before you dated, you were friends and that is where you need to start...back to square one. No expectations, listen and validate when she has something to say.
I, myself, wouldn't move out until the house is sold. Time for answers will come just before you sign the contract on the house. For now, I would continue to live in the house and treat her like a roommate.
I am glad to read that you are dressing nicer and hitting the gym. As you stated, these changes must remain a routine. Are there any other changes that you want to make? They have to be for you and not her. Also, when you go out, you do not have to tell her where you are going all of the time. Be mysterious for a bit. Her curiosity will eventually get the best of her and she will ask you.
As for snooping...nothing comes of it. In fact, it will make you feel terrible, angry and want to do something about it...as you are aware. I'm glad you've ceased this exercise.
180's can be difficult, but you can do some of them. Start out slow with the ILY's and be sure to thank her when she does something that you've been doing, i.e., dishes, etc.
I would back off on pushing for counseling. This is something that she needs to do herself and she's not ready to face the demons Set up counseling sessions for you. No ultimatums! If you do this, she will pick the one that is the easiest.
I know that this journey is frustrating, but you have to trust in the advice that you have been given. Give her space and time, no pressure of any kind, dig deeper for patience and remember....you didn't break her, therefore you can't fix her. The marathon has just begun and it's going to take some time for both of you to heal.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Yes, I think she is using the house as a guide to her decision making. Our realtor said it prob wont sell until the spring, given the style and price point. As it stands now, if it sold today she would want to move in a new place together. Whether that's true on a few months....who knows.
Other than dressing nicer, I am looking at a new hobby. Golf, shooting lessons, karate. I will start something this week.
We unofficially decided to make each other aware of when and where we are going out. Mostly to keep track of who will pick up kids from school. During the intial divorce phase we would leave unannounced and show up whenever. We dont want to relive this feelings. It may be a general "I'm going shopping" to "I'm going to target, you need anything" . Either way, I do not pry, though it seems she does from time to time.
For 180s, I backed off ILY for a while and slowly introduced them back. Last week, she told me there are certain things she doesn't want to tell me because they would get my Hope's up. She eventually spolled the beans. One of those things is ILY. The other is she thinks it's best to remain a family.
As for counseling, she is doing well in her IC and I have a feeling she will spring it up on me suddenly when she wants to do CC. She has a list of my days off in her purse, so she may have scheduled one already.
Oh, and she still thanks me several times per day for helping out with kids, getting dinner, doing dishes, taking her on "dates". Things that were missing from the marriage for so long. I guess this is her love language? I need to read up more on that.
I agree with everything job has said. Really good adivce. I read it twice myself, she real does know what she is talking about.
I would like to add something.
Originally Posted by Hamburg
my brain tells me I need a drastic move.....like move out of the house, or proceed with the divorce negotiations..... but my heart tells me I cannot.
Stop! As job said, I would not move out, or anything else.
I found that this whole situation, this MLC, is one very dramatic experience. As you find some level ground, and the rollercoaster becomes just level track, boring and calm, we think nothing is happening. It now that everything is happening.
The LBS is addicted to the drama, to the dramatic events. You very accurately hear that your brain is telling you it needs a dramatic move. Yes it “needs” it, your life and situation does not!
It takes a lot of will power and focus to calm one’s own brain. Seeing this is the first real step toward achieving it.
Eventually you will also find your heart will “tell” you it needs a dramatic move. Trust me on this, I didn’t see it coming, you probably won’t either. However, one can work their way through that also.
Stay the course and make it through these “needs” of drama.
Do not run away from something, run towards something.
For now you are not ready to run towards anything, even if you think or feel differently. Give it time, and patience. You will know, without doubt, when you are there and on your correct path. Until then accept the “needs” your brain and heart will be telling you, work through them, choose to defer any big decisions for a while - just until you are absolutely sure. I guarantee you will see thing differently, you may still choose the same action, but your reason will be different.
I hope that helps.
DnJ
Feelings are fleeting. Be better, not bitter. Love the person, forgive the sin.
Thanks. The key word is patience. I have looked back at so many events between us (especially lately) and told myself the outcome would have been better if I would just have waited. I have to tell myself this over and over again. I love her dearly and want to help her. It is so hard when that person becomes a monster. I will be honest, it does drive me away from time to time. I think to myself I am at the peak of my earning capacity, am in shape, have plenty of prospects, why the hell don't I move on instead of waiting (possibly years) for this to turn around. I have to be patient.
I have a divorce playbook that has my entire case I built around it. I formed it early on in the process and almost threw it away when we initially reconciled. Something told me to keep it. I have been adding things from time to time and feel guilty continuing to build a case while trying to save the marriage. I just don't want to get caught off guard should the worst happen. I hate opening it but feel it is necessary at times.
I touched on this in another thread, and searched and couldn't find anything about how to just be friends.
Background: late 30s, M 12 years, 2 children under 10. Divorce filed in summer, now dead and in line to be dismissed. Living at home and sharing a bedroom. Please see my other thread for more detail.
We had an early reconciliation and then she pumped the brakes for various reasons. For a month now we have basically been friends. There are occasional hugs or hand holding but not really any more than that. I feel stagnant and we need to head a new direction. I have reached a good balance of distance and pursuit. She has not requested space like she did in the past.
We go out once/twice per week and seem to have fun. I have heard to remember what its like to date but when dating, the goal is to build on a romantic relationship. I need some tips on how to get a friendship going here.
You are very new to the forum and I thought I would let you know that the policy is that we stick to one thread until we have reached 100 postings/replies before creating a new one. You can change your subject line within a thread at any time. The reason for this policy is that it helps our posters to follow your progress, as well as you, the poster, being able to go back and look at all of your postings and not have 2 or more active threads going at the same time.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
If things are working okay at the moment, I wouldn't push to head in a new direction. You have to remember...she's leading the dance at the moment. This is her crisis and she will take as long as she needs to heal and you can't rush the process or the results could be very negative.
Can you look at her as a possible roommate, someone you can share experiences with? Talk about your day a bit, ask how her day went, etc. Plan some fun activities not just with her, but w/the kids and ask if she would like to join you. If she says no, don't get upset...but by asking, you will have put the ball back in her court. If you know what her interests are, then you can work on that angle. For example, if she likes craft shows, then look for some craft shows and mention them to her. Everything you do needs to be kept on the download with no pressure and no expectations. Keep things light and fun. You can try to give her a hug once in a while, but don't expect anything in return. If she appears uncomfortable with hugs, then stop them.
Dig deeper for patience, keep those expectations at zero because you are starting out once again developing a friendship w/someone "new". You may want to rush things a bit, but slow down! You are working on her time clock and that clock is mighty slow. It's one step at a time.
Keep the focus on you and dig deeper for patience! Rome wasn't built in a day and a new relationship has to take time to develop.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
It took me a while, but expectations are now zero. We are pretty much roommates sleeping in the same bed.
Here's how things are going: Hugging: majority initiated be her. They are at "hello" and "goodbye" moments only. Kissing: rarely a kiss on the cheek from her. I usually give one while hugging. No resistance. Hand holding/embracing: always initiated by me. She declined most of the time but occasional reciprocity depending on her mood. Note/gifts: not really present in our relationship until all this garbage happened. I would leave a note by the coffee machine daily. Now I do it 2-3 days per week. No longer "ILY" type stuff but rather stuff you'd see in a fortune cookie, have a nice day type stuff. She seems to enjoy it and always says thank you.
We are going to golf lessons this week. Neither of us like golf but we want to try something new together. She is still intertested in going out as a family the majority of the time. We have thanksgiving dinner planned. She says there is nothing to celebrate for Christmas so has said she doesn't want to do anything. I'm letting that die until time gets closer.
I will think of some more activities. My fear is that we will grow apart as we find ourselves. But there is nothing I can do about it.
The thought of pulling back involved stopping ILYs, hugging and spending more time by myself. Is this a bad idea at this time?
You may have to try different angles to see if anything seems to help
If anything brings her closer or what seems to help and notice what does not help
Sometimes nothing works-and that is helpful to know-
Golf is good and like you said, you can find more activities you can go to range and even get golf games with others when your able
Couples dancing is also another activity if she Is open
I know it is scary to let go and find yourself but yes as you said you have no choice and any clingy behavior may seem negative to her and push her away
hang in
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
So last night we had wine out on the porch. I went against the playbook and talked about myself. Eating right, working out, etc... she complimented me and said she's proud I have stayed the course and am very attractive. Then we talked about the money pit of a house we live in and I said "I'm done with it. I'm ready to startover. I'm going to build a cabin in the woods, live alone and enjoy life". She said "whoa, whoa, whoa, remember nothing has changed. Dont make a rash decision"
Nothing has changed = convo we had a month ago. we want marriage to work and are taking time to figure it out.
Not going to drop that card often but it seemed to work.
MLC interactions are like lab experiments. As Peace pointed out, you have to experiment a bit and see what works and what doesn't. If something is working...then stay the course. If something isn't working, then don't try it again.
I see nothing wrong with the conversation you had last night. You used the word "I" instead of "we or you" and that keeps the communication line a bit more open. She listened to what you had to say and you got a response from her. Do not drop that particular card again...she may feel like you are trying to pressure her into something.
For now...keep the focus on you and your family. Give your wife the space and time she needs.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I also went to dinner by myself, which I never do. She asked how it was and I said it was nice to have some peace. She said it's nice.......occasionally but nothing more than once per week or so. Prior in our divorce she would go out by herself daily.
She is re-inspired to work, but putting heavy stipulations on it. No weekends, nights or travel. Prior in the divorce she wanted to do whatever she could to get out. She may just go part time to see how it goes. I encouraged her and said to let me know if she needs anything.
No daggers thrown in 4 days or so....this is a record. I'm guessing so far, so good.
We are going to the gym, lunch, then golfing today.
I am remembering the man she fell in love with. Charming, witty, funny and romantic. I would send her love notes, poems and treat her like a queen. Lots of that fell off during the marriage. I have to be that guy again. I remember that was one of the happiest times of my life and I felt whole inside.
Day went well. Went to the gym, lunch and golfing. I needed to go to lowes by myself but she insisted on going with me. Then we took the kids to dinner.
I have a work function we discussed months ago, and she finally told me she would go....but i cannot have any expectations, which I agreed to. She hates putting on a happy face when that's not the truth. Nonetheless, she is going. I expected some daggers after this discussion.
I got trapped in an R talk. She said we are Platonic right now and I agreed. I explained I am patient and will continue to do so. She said its important we remain friends even if divorced. I said the only promise I have would to be a great father to my kids, nothing more. She seemed offended. I said I'm not hateful or vindictive, but after being treated like $^#% for so long, then we got back together-prompted by YOU- and then possibly divorced, it would be difficult to want to be friends for a time. I told her that HER destruction of a family, fantasies of a happy life after a nuclear bomb like divorce are not practical and she needed to escape from Lala land. I would likely want her out of my life completely, as it would help the healing process. She remained silent.
She then asked how I felt sleeping in the same bed, and I said fine, I have no expectations. I asked her if I should leave the bedroom and she said no, she just wanted my perspective. It would also be hard to explain that to the kids, who were initially told of the divorce then the early reconciliation.
I asked what it would take for the R to work and she does not know. I then asked what it would take for it NOT to work and she did not know.
We changed the topic and all is well. I hate having these discussions but this was the most calm one we have had. While I understand the need to "act as if" all the time, I cannot let her think I will jump through hoops to be friends with her.
Well, it seemed to have worked. I fell asleep on the couch. She came down at 130 am to bring me to bed. In bed, she rubbed my shoulder and tried to hug me a number of times but I was asleep.
I will say the hangover from an R talk is exhausting though. On to a new day
Thanks. Yes, being friends is difficult, especially as we were intimate a month ago and it has been slowly peeling away, to an occasional hug. After all this, the dynamic has shifted a bit. I feel she has more respect for me now.
There is a book called tough love- not sure of the author-
I don't know how it works with MLC and each situation is a little different never read it or followed the techniques and my ways did not help my situation
Best to test any new strategies to see if they seem to help or hurt the situation and if it is true MLC, sometimes nothing really helps
remember MLC is caused by unresolved childhood issues in many instances-
So the only true healing can come from the MLCer if they are willing to seek help and dig deep for their healing Sadly, Many will prefer to go into replay and have fun, use substances or find a way to numb from it
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
The book peacetoday referenced is titled "Love Must Be Tough". I read the book many years ago, and in my opinion, it's not a book of techniques that would work well when dealing with a MLCer/person in depression. MLCers already feel controlled and manipulated and they would see the techniques as trying to change their minds and if push, come to shove, they will take the road of least resistance.
It would be up to you to decide whether you want to try some of the techniques and see if they work or not. Again, you have to try different things along the way.
Here is a link to some recommended reading materials that you may want to scroll through:
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
What's difficult to understand is different days different things work. It's hard to say there is one consistent set of actions that work.
We are pretty much down to a hug in the morning and that's it as far as touching. We still hang out frequently but there is little connection. I notice any time I throw a compliment to her she smiles and seems to like it. This is hard when I'm also trying distance myself. Can opposite approaches be run simultaneously?
Yes, they can change on a dime and give you nine cents change. They are emotional and don't always think rationally. Try to remember that she's an emotional depressed hot mess right now. Yes, you will see moments of clarity, but she will bounce back and forth Their wiring in the brain is a scramble mess. You can't rationalize with someone who is irrational.
Throwing out compliments when they do something that warrants a compliment is okay. Wouldn't you give a compliment to a friend if they did something that warranted a compliment?
Try not to over analyze her behavior or what she says. Focus on you and try to maintain some stability for you and your family. As for your wife, she's going to be bouncing all around for a while.
If you have not read the detachment thread, you may want to do so. It will provide you with some tips on detaching.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I have started to detach but very slowly. It has helped me get back into the grind at work, feel more confident and realize there is a world for me if things don't work out. It is a hard process though. 12 years, med school, residency, children were times of struggle and happiness, and we managed to pull through. I want to remain hopeful but have to prepare for the worst.
I haven't told her she's beautiful in over a week. I haven't said ILY in several days. I haven't hit on her in over a week. It is so hard because that is what helped us get back together for a time. Now it feels empty, stagnant, and like a friendship.
You can always have that flicker of hope and you are right, you still need to prepare for the worse...but let's hope it doesn't come to that.
It is difficult when you think back and see just how far you have come and now, this type of thing happens. But, you need to remember, it's not you, but her. You didn't break her and she is the only one that can fix herself. You didn't cause this situation. Before you loved her, you were friends and that's where you need to go back to. Think about the man you were before you met her. You were single and not a couple and there is nothing wrong in doing things for yourself now and leaving her to herself to figure things out.
Friendship is the first step. Take it minute by minute, hour by hour and then day by day. It will get easier in time.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
The other thing is to view this situation as a Valuable time /lesson in your life Maybe not exactly what you wanted...but it needed to happen for whatever reason
It can become an extremely important time:
you get to re-discover yourself you get to see the M.. the mistakes , the changes you would want in yourself if you had another chance
You get to look at your relationship with your kids, what you would change, whats important your friendships and family
maybe there are some issues in yourself, that can be healed also-or changed The way we take care of ourselves our compassion expands ect… our religious or spiritual views much to learn here
Without the crises, we may not look within we may not be aware of things even in other people that we need to see
It doesn't seem as such, but maybe a gift in some ways-
Usually the LBS gets to the other side with many new gifts, maybe a new view on life and definitely happy again
Depending the the MLCer and if it is true MLC, some do not make the other side better than b4
more will be revealed later.. now is time for patience and inner healing and work
hang in there
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
So since I informed her I would not be friends with her if we divorce, things have changed. I feel she respects me a bit more and she has NOT tried to throw daggers or start any arguments. Things are smooth.
I am trying some 180s to see how things go.
Last night she did not want me to light her cigar, but I did anyway. She did not pay much mind to it. I got her an extra blanket because it is cold. She asked what it was for and I explained it to her. She gave a soft thanks. This morning I asked her what kind of coffee she would like and said "I dont need you to make my coffee for me" These are things she has never had a problem with before. She later texted and apologized for being rude but kids woke up early today and shes in a bad mood.
I will preface this with the fact I am still focusing on myself. I do wonder though, if she respects me more or if she has just given up. I do think if she has given up there would be MORE daggers, fights, etc... but nobody can understand the mindset here.
My big question is: are 180s attempted once or a few times over the course of days?
There is no right or wrong way in dealing w/a MLCer. Each person has to experiment and figure out what works best for them. If something doesn't work now, it might later on. I would suggest that you not smother her with 180's. I would do a few every now and then and drop them for a bit.
Remember...you can't rush the process and you do need to give her plenty of space to figure things out. You do not want to look like a pursuer and making her feel pressure. If she says she doesn't want you to do something, then maybe you should "listen to her" and honor her wishes.
Keep the focus on you!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
If she is really in MLC, you will continue to see crazy behavior and a lot of come closer, and push aways mood swings and odd behavior
I don't think the MLCer gives up for long, because the issues run deep- The crises usually takes a long time some do return quickly but we rarely see that on this board-
if it is something besides MLC you may see someone shift back into the relationship and perhaps work on things in a shorter time frame
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
So the work banquet went well. One of the things she said was missing from the marriage was that I never made her part of my work life. Heck, it took me 1.5 years before any of my work friends could meet up due to our busy schedules.
She agreed to go as long as I didn't make any PDA, etc... I was completely hands off. Had a nice dinner with some co workers (even people who know our situation-which she was always afraid of). Then after we met up with some work friends for drinks and had a great time socializing, something we haven't done in a while.
Of course, meeting new people you have to discuss how we met, where we've lived, etc... One other wife had helped her husband through med school and residency, currently have busy schedules and little time for herself.... and my W realized she is not alone here.
At home we say outside and she let me light her cigarettes. Had some deep talks about life in general and family stuff. No future talk at all. I told her she looked beautiful in her dress and she said I looked very nice myself. I said we are a dead sexy couple and she giggled and said thanks. Night ended with her hugging me.
During the night I placed my hand on her upper back--no movement or push back from her. This morning I got a hug. I looked back at the times I would get some leeway and would come on too strong, pushing her back. I will try and do things slowly and stepwise here.
When doing 180s it would be either hot or cold (not mean though). So maybe the key is some small steps with physical affection while still finding time for myself and keeping some distance while together? I will see how this formula works.
1 week and absolutely NO daggers thrown. I have given her plenty of opportunities too. I don't know whether to be scared (if she gave up) or happy (she realized I'm not a door mat anymore).
Just go with the flow. Learn to accept her for who she is at the moment and no pressure.
Keep the focus on YOU!
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Still taking care of myself. I have a wonderful work family who is giving me support.
With regards to the wife, we had plans to go out with friends fri night but friend is working. I made reservations for the 2 of us but she wants to go out as a family instead. Then she is going out with a friend sat night and asked me to watch kids. I said, no I'm going out with friends. She said "WHO are you going out with?!?!?!" and I said "friends"
This is something I would always have jumped at the opportunity to hang out with my kids but we are going out as a family fri night. Plus the kids love the baby sitter. We also have plans to go out thanksgiving and she said she may not be in the mood. I said I will take kids out myself. The old me would have sat around and felt sorry for her.
I'm not going to sit at home and wallow in her misery anymore.
Doing for myself feels great. I come home in an upbeat mood, have fun at work and am enjoying what I can.
Next up is Brazilian martial arts on thur.
Last edited by job; 11/13/1806:40 PM. Reason: added spaces between paragraphs
You are doing exactly what you are suppose to be doing, i.e., not wallowing in her misery. Go out, have fun and you do not have to tell her who you are going out with. Her curiosity will eventually get the best of her.
You handled this conversation very well. Keep up the good work, especially on yourself.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
New development. Realtor suggested pulling house off the market in dec if no offers. That would be 4 months. Plan would then be to re list in late jan. I have thought to only do it if we dismiss the divorce and re file later if we need to. Otherwise we need to keep all options open. Dismissal was on the table until I discovered the EA was still intact (in late sept). It is over now. She pulled it due to distrust of me snooping (go figure). Is this a fair bargaining chip?
Fyi, divorce filed as fault for her infidelity, which she hates. Bonus is that I get big chunk of change back from unused retainer.
I think your realtor has given you good advice. I would put it back on the market in early March because houses don't usually sell quickly between Nov. - Feb. Before I agreed to take it off the market, I would discuss what the realtor advised you to do.
If you use the house as a bargaining chip, she may tell you to keep it on the market. Proposing or giving ultimatums doesn't work well when some is in MLC. They always pick the option that is the easiest and she will see this as manipulation. I would just lay out to her what the realtor said and not bring up the divorce issue...but that is my two cents.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Thanks. I think she is about to hit rock bottom too. Job search is not what she hoped and she's extremely depressed. May want to go back to school to do something that pays the bills but not something she really wants to do. Also feels shes wasted her life, etc...She tried to engage me again this morning by saying "if we get divorced I will need a good job. I know that's not what you want to hear"
I said "I get it" she started to cry and I left for the gym.
It's so hard because the husband in me wants to embrace and tell her it will be ok. The DB in me just wants to get out of the situation.
Reading your situation just stirs me up inside, so familiar.
Only difference is my husband has left physically and come back a number of times to pursue his fantasy life/affair. But he always keeps constant contact as though we are still "together" even while gone. Once he returns he is distant emotionally but wants hugs and is kind to me, but secretive.
When I read your interactions it very much sounds like ours, including the time line except this is our second round; which is much harsher than the first. It sounds like she may be a clinging boomerang type, like mine is. They don't want to let you go but don't want to commit either. The thing with MLC is they can be in multiple stages at one time and it makes it confusing to navigate. I can relate very much to your feelings. People say to detach and to not focus on them but it is hard when you can clearly see they need you and do want your attention. Also because they give you hope with politeness and appreciation it just feels like your being mean by doing 180 and detaching behaviour. If the desire is to keep family together, I have such a hard time with doing my own thing and not being concerned with my H. I just find the connection is important if they are keeping connected. Chasing after the connection when they clearly don't desire it; I can understand pulling back for them to come to you and to stay out of the drama. But, if they are present but in inner turmoil and not projecting it on you anymore, it makes it hard to be patient and detach. For me anyways.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
You may think she is about to hit bottom....but they scrape the bottom for a very long time and when you think she's hit it, she will again float to the top. Bluesun is correct in saying that they can be in multiple stages at one time. It's definitely not a linear crisis. They are mourning their youth and just like people mourning the death of a loved one, it takes time and yes, they too, bounce through the stages of grief.
Dig deeper for patience. It takes a lot of time, energy and patience to walk this path.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
No matter how hard they seem to fall or how hard they appear to have landed there is always more bottom to be found.
I never would have thought my ex would be still chasing after her dreams and his wallet over 3 years out having sacrificed her home, family, losing both her parents, losing her standing in the community etc etc.
She's even gotten the stereotypical tattoo. The little I hear about her indicates that she is an angry bitter woman despite her situation being completely the result of her own choices.
There's still farther she could fall though - there is always a door pointing down.
The real question is when they say "enough" and try to climb back out. Many never have the strength nor courage to do that. And many keep chasing after the phantoms of happiness.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Thanks guys. The other night she declined an invitation to dinner and suggested I find some friends. So, had lunch with some coworkers and she asked me if one was female. I said yes and she became visibly angry. I find it comical.
I agree with the above input. I do feel like I care less and less as the weeks go by. I am in the prime of my life and have a timeframe of when I am throwing in the towel here. Sometimes it is too much to handle.
So went to dinner 2 nights in a row with kids. Last night was great. Tonight....not so much.
Background: W feels I never made her part of my work life. She also knows nurses have been giving me numbers and hitting on me (she has a friend at the hospital telling her this stuff).
Dinner was ok. She had IC today and I think they've been hitting hard topics. Then, who is at the booth behind us? It's the attractive nurse practitioner who was basically been hitting on me non stop for 2 weeks. She's there with 4 other nurses I know. I introduce then to the family and W seems upset.
Then bowling. Who's on lane next to us? 8 ER nurses celebrating a birthday. I hear in unison "Hi Dr. XXXXXX" W is visibly upset. Kids are upset because they aren't bowling strikes. W looks at me and says "I hate doing things as a family. I hate it and dont want to do it anymore"
I just say "ok, I'm sorry you had a bad day" I start to plead and day we can do things non competitive but back off.
In the car discussed plans for tomorrow. I remind her on going out with friends. She said "oh you found someone to hang out with you" I said "I have friends and don't have to find anyone"
In my experience my H likes to "test" me, a lot. Suggesting things to see what I will do, watching to see how I will react like he is checking to see if I still care or maybe determining how much control he still has over me. He often makes "suggestions" for me about taking up a hobby and things like that, but to be honest I think he is projecting his own thoughts about himself when he says that. Maybe your W is doing the same, when she says find some friends etc.
That's why its good to change it up and give an unexpected reaction at times, so they get caught off guard a bit and think. For myself I find it tough to keep playing the game. I too have days or even weeks where I feel fed up with the games. I guess the trouble is we are in our 40s + and dealing with someone who has the social skills and perspective of a teenager (and a toddler at times). We have matured and they are still in the process.
What gives me hope is that I went through my own crisis about 10 years ago when I was hit with a health issue that changed my life in every aspect (I am 43, H 48). I also watched my father go through a mlc when my grandpa passed away, my dad was in his early 30s at the time, 5 kids and a wife at home, a few years of being off and on gone and I have a half sister as a result. My parents worked things out and have a solid marriage, they celebrated their 50th anniversary a couple years ago.
I know there is possibility for things to repair because Ive seen it happen. My husband and I got through my MLC and Round one of his. We are on round 2 and 7 years in, thank goodness we had a break of 5 years limbo before he hit me again, though I saw it under the surface. My sister is presently in MLC and she completely left her family and has been gone for 2 years living a very horrible life in a abusive and awful relationship even living out of her vehicle but still wont come home and face the damage, completely abandoned her children and husband of 16 years; its truly amazing how low rock bottom can be. Ive also seen it work and seen it not work out but I think if you have a good marriage to begin with and you have hope, communication and patience there is always a chance on reconciling if you have forgiveness and see the crisis for what it is and don't take the horrible projections and actions personally. Just my thoughts.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Yea it hurts her to see you getting attention, but no regard for you when the OM is in the picture. That's the fun of MLC... whats good for them is not for us, unless of course they tell us it is and then we still aren't supposed to do it because they are testing us or using it to justify their poor behaviour. Mind games and mind games.
I can just imagine the feeling of every corner there being the nurses, one shot of it would have been a bit funny if it were me to be honest, but every turn in the evening I don't know for you but for me, I would've thought...seriously? Like Im trying to have a good time and keep the peace here....why.
Love the comment " I have friends and don't need to find anyone"
Im thinking it is her low self esteem and guilt beating her down, not you or anything you are doing. If she is bothered by the nurses then maybe she has been afraid of losing you to begin with, like maybe abandonment is a root issue for her. Maybe she knows she messed up and needs time to figure out what direction she wants to go in life in general.
I know for myself I had to accept things in my MLC; once I did the fog lifted fast, I accepted things and then felt it lift, the clarity was surreal. I remember it like this... One day I was a real Bee* to my H. I had this thing I would do where I would throw his blanket on the bedroom floor and say to myself how much I didnt want him to sleep with me and laugh to myself when he would come in and pick it up. Pretty childish tbh. This day he came in and saw it and was annoyed, he said Im starting to think this is on purpose and said he had it with me, and well...he meant it. When he left the room I laughed to myself but I also thought about it. He was genuinely angry and it was at that moment I realized maybe he would leave me. The next day I thought, alot.... I was looking out my bedroom window, sitting with my legs crossed on my bed. I was very obsessed during my crisis with my Papa who had passed when I was 4 years old, I would talk to him and sing to him nearly daily. While I sat there I talked to him, I sang him a song and said goodbye to him and told him how much I loved him and missed him. I thought about my health and accepted that things will be how they will and that I would be ok no matter what because I had a great support system and would always be ok, maybe not rich but always ok. I could feel myself almost as though I was a little girl, for a few minutes I actually felt like I did when I was very young, it was strange and then I felt the love I had for my husband in my hand...I took my hand and put it up to my chest, I literally felt the love fill inside me and I knew I loved him and wanted to be with him. It was very strange and most people would think I was crazy to tell them this. But this is an experience I had in my own MLC.
Listen to the things she refers to , like work and stuff like that. There may be some meaning behind it, a fear or issue. People say don't do that because it will make you crazy but if your situation is like ours its a bit different than a spouse who is still in heavy replay with crazy in their eyes. If she is like I was she will realize things and remember her love for you once her acceptance comes. She is very lucky to have you being patient and understanding. If she doesn't realize it now, sooner or later she will. Hopefully for her and the future of your family she realizes your value and clears her mind before you give up and cave to attention from other women. Its very lonely being a LBS, being rejected, walking on egg shells and knowing you are wasting away while they brood or "run". Its exhausting really and we need attention and affection too. But, for me I don't want attention from others at the expense of my marriage if it can be repaired.
You are strong and patient. Just try to keep focused, it isnt an easy task. If you want your marriage intact once her Crisis is over try not to fall for temptation it will just make it harder to repair things after, its enough with their damage. My opinion anyway.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
You nailed it. Her mom left her dad at age 3 and abandomnemt is her main issue. Her parents are good friends now and both single. She still wishes her parents would get back together. That's why she had hope we would be friends if we get D. I put a quick stop to that lone of thinking a couple of weeks ago.
After all this last night she came downstairs to say goodnight.
Tonight I'm going out with co workers. 3 guys and 5 females. I'm sure the W will be asking questions.
I think its good for her to see the possibilities and you creating new life/friends--some female
I don't think many of us have taken that route, and most of us here also lost our spouses every MLCer is a bit different
I don't think any strategy can really bring them through the crises but you are taking care of yourself and seeing possible new directions for yourself-so I will be curious to see the outcome and how she handles it-
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Its unfortunate but she will need to face those fears that have stunted her spiritual/emotional maturity before she can recognize what she is doing to her future with you. Of course I am speaking from my own MCL experience and maybe others are different. From my experience I still loved my H but it was like I was detached from it, like it was in my hand not my heart. I did notice him and the positive and negative things he did, even if I reacted in a different way at times. I would call my behaviour like acting out/rebellion based on how I felt inside. I was mean to him because inside I knew it was safe to be, that he wouldn't leave me and would forgive me. I think on some level I thought I could do anything and he would forgive me. Is that feeling entitled? That was me. I didn't want to lose him but I also felt really angry with him for holding me back in life, even though it wasn't actually the reality just my reasoning at the time, I was attracted to him at times and then on a flip of a dime I was repulsed by him. Its really internal conflicting. If you can see it from the inside its easier to not be taking it personally. It literally is about them and not you.
To me you sound like you are taking things from an objective level even though it can appear subjective. Its that uncertainty and not knowing when it will finally end that is the hardest for me with my H crisis. (From the other side of the crisis I can say I didn't know myself how long it would take either while in that fog.)
If its any consolation I wasn't really aware of my behaviour and its impact until after the fog lifted. I was pretty confused though at the time I didn't realize it. Even though I acted and said I wanted a divorce, when it came down to it I never really did and wasn't aware completely of the impact of those statements or of the outcome if it were to happen because even though I said it and in a way wanted it so I would feel less pressure from everywhere, on a subconscious level I never believed it was real or could ever be real. If that makes sense.
Going out and taking time for yourself is a good idea. Take care of yourself and try to get that much needed attention on a platonic level so you don't get sucked into temptation when you are now vulnerable. Again just my thoughts.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Yea it hurts her to see you getting attention, but no regard for you when the OM is in the picture. That's the fun of MLC... whats good for them is not for us, unless of course they tell us it is and then we still aren't supposed to do it because they are testing us or using it to justify their poor behaviour. Mind games and mind games.
I can just imagine the feeling of every corner there being the nurses, one shot of it would have been a bit funny if it were me to be honest, but every turn in the evening I don't know for you but for me, I would've thought...seriously? Like Im trying to have a good time and keep the peace here....why.
Love the comment " I have friends and don't need to find anyone"
Im thinking it is her low self esteem and guilt beating her down, not you or anything you are doing. If she is bothered by the nurses then maybe she has been afraid of losing you to begin with, like maybe abandonment is a root issue for her. Maybe she knows she messed up and needs time to figure out what direction she wants to go in life in general.
I know for myself I had to accept things in my MLC; once I did the fog lifted fast, I accepted things and then felt it lift, the clarity was surreal. I remember it like this... One day I was a real Bee* to my H. I had this thing I would do where I would throw his blanket on the bedroom floor and say to myself how much I didnt want him to sleep with me and laugh to myself when he would come in and pick it up. Pretty childish tbh. This day he came in and saw it and was annoyed, he said Im starting to think this is on purpose and said he had it with me, and well...he meant it. When he left the room I laughed to myself but I also thought about it. He was genuinely angry and it was at that moment I realized maybe he would leave me. The next day I thought, alot.... I was looking out my bedroom window, sitting with my legs crossed on my bed. I was very obsessed during my crisis with my Papa who had passed when I was 4 years old, I would talk to him and sing to him nearly daily. While I sat there I talked to him, I sang him a song and said goodbye to him and told him how much I loved him and missed him. I thought about my health and accepted that things will be how they will and that I would be ok no matter what because I had a great support system and would always be ok, maybe not rich but always ok. I could feel myself almost as though I was a little girl, for a few minutes I actually felt like I did when I was very young, it was strange and then I felt the love I had for my husband in my hand...I took my hand and put it up to my chest, I literally felt the love fill inside me and I knew I loved him and wanted to be with him. It was very strange and most people would think I was crazy to tell them this. But this is an experience I had in my own MLC.
Listen to the things she refers to , like work and stuff like that. There may be some meaning behind it, a fear or issue. People say don't do that because it will make you crazy but if your situation is like ours its a bit different than a spouse who is still in heavy replay with crazy in their eyes. If she is like I was she will realize things and remember her love for you once her acceptance comes. She is very lucky to have you being patient and understanding. If she doesn't realize it now, sooner or later she will. Hopefully for her and the future of your family she realizes your value and clears her mind before you give up and cave to attention from other women. Its very lonely being a LBS, being rejected, walking on egg shells and knowing you are wasting away while they brood or "run". Its exhausting really and we need attention and affection too. But, for me I don't want attention from others at the expense of my marriage if it can be repaired.
You are strong and patient. Just try to keep focused, it isnt an easy task. If you want your marriage intact once her Crisis is over try not to fall for temptation it will just make it harder to repair things after, its enough with their damage. My opinion anyway.
I noticed some of these behaviors early on. I took a nurse friend out shopping (for me). I changed my wardrobe style a bit because I had only my "dad clothes" like baggy jeans and old shorts. I came downstairs one day and she noticed how thin I was and how neat I looked. She immediately started crying for about 30 minutes. Once after a talk with my attorney she was frightened I would take the kids and she had an emotional breakdown and stood behind my car so I couldn't leave the house. She also told me a number of times how her biggest fear was that I would give up on her. She initially refused IC but on her own accord accepted she needs it and continues to go (consistently for 2 months now). She was never a heavy smoker but did daily for the past few months. She quit last week and no longer wants to. She barely drinks wine now, which was a daily thing for 3 years (and heavy for the past 3 months). I keep thinking she'll ask me to leave the bedroom but refills my soap dispenser and puts new toothpaste in my drawer, and does my laundry. In September she said it wasn't entirely my fault and she played a big role in it. The EA is over and there is no communication. She knows she's depressed and asked me for help.
These are some of the little bits that give me hope she is crawling out of it.
The harsh daily daggers have stopped but I continue to deflect and give empathetic statements when applicable. I no longer say ILY but there are so many times I want to.
I noticed some of these behaviors early on. I took a nurse friend out shopping (for me). I changed my wardrobe style a bit because I had only my "dad clothes" like baggy jeans and old shorts. I came downstairs one day and she noticed how thin I was and how neat I looked. She immediately started crying for about 30 minutes. Once after a talk with my attorney she was frightened I would take the kids and she had an emotional breakdown and stood behind my car so I couldn't leave the house. She also told me a number of times how her biggest fear was that I would give up on her. She initially refused IC but on her own accord accepted she needs it and continues to go (consistently for 2 months now). She was never a heavy smoker but did daily for the past few months. She quit last week and no longer wants to. She barely drinks wine now, which was a daily thing for 3 years (and heavy for the past 3 months). I keep thinking she'll ask me to leave the bedroom but refills my soap dispenser and puts new toothpaste in my drawer, and does my laundry. In September she said it wasn't entirely my fault and she played a big role in it. The EA is over and there is no communication. She knows she's depressed and asked me for help.
These are some of the little bits that give me hope she is crawling out of it.
The harsh daily daggers have stopped but I continue to deflect and give empathetic statements when applicable. I no longer say ILY but there are so many times I want to. [/quote]
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
[/quote]I noticed some of these behaviors early on. I took a nurse friend out shopping (for me). I changed my wardrobe style a bit because I had only my "dad clothes" like baggy jeans and old shorts. I came downstairs one day and she noticed how thin I was and how neat I looked. She immediately started crying for about 30 minutes. Once after a talk with my attorney she was frightened I would take the kids and she had an emotional breakdown and stood behind my car so I couldn't leave the house. She also told me a number of times how her biggest fear was that I would give up on her. She initially refused IC but on her own accord accepted she needs it and continues to go (consistently for 2 months now). She was never a heavy smoker but did daily for the past few months. She quit last week and no longer wants to. She barely drinks wine now, which was a daily thing for 3 years (and heavy for the past 3 months). I keep thinking she'll ask me to leave the bedroom but refills my soap dispenser and puts new toothpaste in my drawer, and does my laundry. In September she said it wasn't entirely my fault and she played a big role in it. The EA is over and there is no communication. She knows she's depressed and asked me for help.
These are some of the little bits that give me hope she is crawling out of it.
The harsh daily daggers have stopped but I continue to deflect and give empathetic statements when applicable. I no longer say ILY but there are so many times I want to.[quote]
* Sorry Im technology challenged*
Not sure what others would say but seems like maybe she is coming out of the replay stuff by dropping the smoking/alcohol stuff which was out of character prior to the crisis. Just be prepared in case some of it surfaces again. I know a lot of the advice is to not say you love them and to go against your natural feelings. For myself, I have a hard time not being genuine. If I want to say ILY and it is because I really want to, not for a reaction or anything like that, then to me...say it if it is true in your heart. Saying it for it to be reciprocated, out of habit, to manipulate or to test is not a reason to say it and I would suggest pulling back when the urge is there. But if you are having a moment and really connecting and you can feel the naturalness and you aren't saying it all the time personally I would from time to time. They do need to hear it some times because the truth is during the crisis they don't feel loved and don't love themselves. Sometimes saying it can trigger a "but I don't love you" response in them but once they have pulled themselves out of the crazy replay stuff an ILY once in a while I think is a good thing. But that's my opinion. Others may feel different.
Do you think she will ask you to leave because you are scared she will or because you aren't sure where you stand?
She is probably really thinking a lot right now and wavering on what her future will be. She just needs time to think, to reflect and to sort that stuff out. Hang in there. In the end it will be what it will, but it sounds to me like there is genuine love between you both. Repairing if you reconcile completely takes time and those triggers will reappear but if forgiveness and understanding are there you have a fighting chance.
It is still a long haul even after the replay ends and taking a look at your future without them is another process we go through as LBS. No matter what you will be ok. My prayers are for you both to have that okay future -together.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
I personally think depression and withdrawal are coinciding. As for our love....we have always had a special bond and even during the worst times of our fighting/divorcing I could tell she still loved me. She refused to look into my eyes and when she would, she would cry. She cried about imagining me moving on and that nobody will understand her efforts to support me through school and residency. She told me a few weeks ago the old ILYBINILWY. But then a day later said she is keeping certain things from me in order to not get my Hope's up. I eventually extracted them: 1. she thinks marriage is best/right thing to do for our family 2. She loves me.
I was admittedly caught snooping which led to secrecy. But now she leaves her phone, tablet, laptop out in the open (I'm not looking) which symbolizes trust or perhaps just testing me.
As for the bedroom. It is more of a curiosity to me why someone who is so confused would want a spouse sleeping next to them. I just don't understand it. To be Frank, there is no intimacy right now. She used to ask for space but would not define it. She has not mentioned that word in a couple of months now.
As for the future. She is looking for employment and hasn't worked outside the home in 8 years. A week ago she said she wanted to struggle because that build character. Now she realizes jobs are hard to come by but cannot possibly work for $15 per hour because it can't support her lifestyle. She has applies for maybe 12 jobs in 3 weeks and continues to shop, get nails/hair done, workout etc....and job search seems secondary to everything else.
You are her security, her safety net, the one she can rely on. In MLC there are a few different approaches Midlifers can take. Some abandon completely like my sister did, some come and go checking in every week or month like my Dad, and then there are the ones who keep closer contact like my H and your W. They all have confusion and on some level escape the relationship either physically, emotionally or both. She says she doesn't want you...but....I would bet way down deep inside you are still there in her heart and she doesn't really want you gone, maybe for a minute and then thinks about it and no. That's why she wants to sleep with you still, she is confused, she blames you and loves you at the same time. And the fear is always strongest for a while.
It sounds like she is going through different things in her mind, different scenarios. She says one minute she wanted to struggle to build character and then the next couldn't work for $15/hr because she is accustom to her lifestyle. In my opinion she is trying to figure things out about what she would do if she no longer had you in her life, on all levels. And this does correlate with the issue of abandonment. Not having her accustom way of life is a smoke screen for her fear of not having you in general. I don't believe she only sees you as an ATM. She is struggling inside and flipping things around, ideas around until she accepts one that eases her fear, so she can face it head on with a safety net in her mind whether conscious of it or not.
Listen to what she says and watch her actions; they do give you some insight if you read past the crazy/chaos. There is a grain of truth in things she says and does, you just can not take any of it personally.
What does employment mean to her? Does it fill a void, define her identity, give her purpose, indicate status, indicate worthiness, what does it trigger inside her. I wonder if she sees your success as a doctor and sees that as "who" you are, and then looks at herself and thinks....who am I? Maybe not realizing that employment is not your identity; it is superficial to define others by their employment and status rather than by who they are as a personality/character good and bad. She may be trying to accept this and embrace that her value as a person is not defined by income. Some women struggle with "losing" those years of staying home to raise a family. But it is not a loss at all it is actually a blessing but many women struggle with this concept and transition.
Maybe she actually thinks very highly of you, despite her poor behaviour and wonders how she could possibly hang onto you if she is in her own mind not worthy. Its just a thought, I may be wrong.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Sorry if I have high jacked you today. Prayers of hope sent for you both~ Take Care
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Well... she has said before there is no way I could love her and she doesn't deserve me. She has also stated it would be hard to not be the drs wife.
As for a job. She has always held prestigious jobs and community titles. She lost her identity through becoming a mother and feels employment would give her a chance to contribute financially. A month ago she wanted to go to school and I promised to support her in every way. She was excited about finally pursuing her dream career but now that has taken a back seat to employment, in case she needs to support herself.
Last week she said she can see how important it is for me to unwind with the kids every day after work. She knows it would be devastating to break up a family. She has stated several times how she doesnt want to follow in her mothers footsteps. Which is strange to me that someone who has had so much resentment for her mom, knows the pain of broken family would follow in those footsteps. She always thought she was better than the cycle and could beat it.
[/quote]As for a job. She has always held prestigious jobs and community titles. She lost her identity through becoming a mother and feels employment would give her a chance to contribute financially. A month ago she wanted to go to school and I promised to support her in every way. She was excited about finally pursuing her dream career but now that has taken a back seat to employment, in case she needs to support herself.[quote]
The dream career may have taken a back seat to employment but, she may also be rethinking that dream career now that the commitment to pursue is there. Making decisions and commitments while in MLC is difficult because the brain is all over the place. She may also have some changes in her desire for that dream career now that time has passed. When did she chose this career?
She knows on some level that a divorce is not inevitable, so she knows she may not have to support herself entirely if you stay together. She could even be afraid of the leap into the dream in case it isn't all she actually thought it would be. Her fear of failure could be stunting her movement towards the schooling, she has been dealing with her appearance with nails/hair/shopping etc and the job search took a back seat to this. Is the shopping and salon a normal behaviour pre crisis?
So her dream career has taken a back seat to employment which has now taken a back seat to shopping/hair/nails etc. So she is stalling. Im hearing all these things are being processed; she is contemplating decisions on her work, her home, her family and on you. She will likely flop all over the place for a while as it goes undetected under the surface. I would just acknowledge her options when she presents them and support her choice at the time; eventually one of these things will dictate what she will chose with the others. And once she makes concrete positive choices and they come into fruition from her hand then her confidence should increase as should progress. Takes time...argh eh.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
[/quote]Last week she said she can see how important it is for me to unwind with the kids every day after work. She knows it would be devastating to break up a family. She has stated several times how she doesnt want to follow in her mothers footsteps. Which is strange to me that someone who has had so much resentment for her mom, knows the pain of broken family would follow in those footsteps. She always thought she was better than the cycle and could beat it.[quote]
This makes me wonder if one big lesson she has to learn and face has to do with compassion for her Mom and understanding why her mom did what she did. I don't mean agree with the choice, or decide whether it is right or wrong but understand it wasn't your W fault and recognize the things that may have influenced it happening. One of my own acceptance was accepting my Dad behaviour in his MLC and seeing it from an adult perspective rather than from a child's, and actually seeing it from both at the same time, if that makes sense. I had to look at it and understand it and basically forgive him for everything on a spiritual level and let it go. Maybe she is going through something similar. In my own it was understanding my grandpas passing having an affect on my dad which threw him into deep crisis. Saying goodbye to my Papa actually helped me understand why my Dad did what he did, I didn't agree with his choice but I understood how it could twist his mind. Maybe it is something like this sort of for her.
In order to beat the cycle you need to know what you are up against. She has so much resentment because it hurts, its the pain, the lack of understanding the perspective and the fear that is driving her right now. She can still beat it by repairing and learning from her own experience.
Last edited by bluesun; 11/18/1812:22 AM.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Thanks. She has always kept up with appearance, but nails, etc... have become more frequent now.
As for the schooling. It is something she has always wanted to do. She was steadfast about 2 months ago. At that time I promised to support her, move across the country and do anything for her, as she supported me through school. Coincidentally, it was a time we reconnected on a deep emotional level and reconciled....for a month. Now she says she can do it without my support, but that would be next to impossible.
I will say that going out with friends was great, but it was so lonely without the love of my life there with me. I saw all the other couples having romantic dinners and it stung......hard. then, picking up the kids and coming home to an empty house stung even more. The kids asking where mama is, wanting her to sing lullabies and tuck them in. She doesn't go out with friends very often.....this was the first time in months. So I don't know if this will become the new norm or not. Having been through this, does she feel the same loneliness coming home to an empty house?
That was why I was questioning the nails etc, it could be replay behaviour cycling. This journey is a tough one. Do what is right for you, if it is too much, one day she will live to regret it. Im sorry you are going through this. The cycling is what makes it harder, you get your hopes up and then they hit you again. Its part of the process. Detaching while they are in replay behaviours is a good idea. You are vulnerable right now, just make sure to not make any decisions you may regret later. Its a blow to find out about an A of any kind, Im beyond aware of that. She may escalate for a while, just be prepared and hold yourself together. You are strong.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
[/quote]I will say that going out with friends was great, but it was so lonely without the love of my life there with me. I saw all the other couples having romantic dinners and it stung......hard. then, picking up the kids and coming home to an empty house stung even more. The kids asking where mama is, wanting her to sing lullabies and tuck them in. She doesn't go out with friends very often.....this was the first time in months. So I don't know if this will become the new norm or not. Having been through this, does she feel the same loneliness coming home to an empty house?[quote]
I can just imagine the sinking feelings...I am familiar with the questions from the kids, it triggers those feelings of loneliness and anger even more I find. She likely does feel the loneliness of an empty house, how it affects her Im not sure. It could feed guilt, feed her feelings of emptiness/void or remind her of her wanting to run urges or something else. But I would imagine she does feel it. MLC is a tough haul. They are pretty selfish through out the crisis. Im sorry it is so hard, I am dealing with my H second round as we speak. It [censored] to say the least. She seems to be cycling, it gets worse before it gets better...
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
The new attraction brings on euphoria and fun-so I doubt many of them are feeling to lonely and they use the new person to run from their feelings and it works for a short while, till everything comes tumbling down-
The MLCer is not in their right mind- but from what I've read here and experienced myself- many will pursue the new fantasy life It rarely seems to work out for them
The LBS usually has to clean up the mess at home-be the strong involved parent and encourage good co-parenting even though we are crushed and hurt-
Usually no strategy will stop them so think about what will be best for your kids and you- and work for a peaceful transition for yourself and the kids-
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
I went home and packed a suitcase and left it by the front door. Asked her to talk.
She walked in the room and said "are you leaving"?
Me: we both know what happened last night. You violated trust of the marriage. Your actions have caused me to leave. You have some serious thinking to do.
She started to cry and shake her head in acknowledgement.
I left.
This really cuts deep and I am going dark now. Attorney advised me to move back in ASAP so going to move to guest room tomorrow and keep my distance.
You handle yourself well, likely because it comes from a place of love and patience. Keep strong and go with your gut not your emotions. Its tough to do at times but focus more head than heart. Detach for yourself and continue to take care of your own emotional needs through friends/your children; you matter too.
Its pretty common to flop back and forth with the stages and to have them happening at the same time. In this situation the best thing to do is not make any decisions on reaction and impulse; leave the impulsive irrational stuff to them.
You impress me Hamburg, your W is a lucky woman its a shame she doesn't appreciates her blessings presently.
On a legal note, best to not leave the residence good advice by your attorney.
Dark is a good idea; you do it for you, not for them. Going dark to manipulate never works, its so you can detach from the drama and manipulation/emotional control from them.
I realize this is moo presently; the urge to escape and avoid or "run" is very strong it takes a lot of strength to fight it. Midlifers are known to do some mind boggling and wayyyyyy out of character replay behaviours; lie, cheat, steal, etc. The way I look at it is as though they are a rebellious teenage/child. They are in adult situations but with the thought process of a teenager that is why everything they do lacks maturity and is hard to comprehend for those looking in. They think how can this mother and wife do this?? What kind of mother abandons her children, becomes narcissistic in their way with entitlement behaviour? They literally are internally detached from that identity. They know they are a mother but on another level internally are detached from it. Its hard to explain. Its like they are detached in general from their life and their identity. That's why they do the things they do. People say they know what they are doing so they are responsible for it. I agree and disagree. They know yes, but they are detached, kind of like watching a movie. They aren't cognitively able to take responsibility fully for their actions until there is some clarity, until then they will not recognize their behaviours damage, to a degree yes, but not to the extent you expect or desire. From my experience anyways. Another way I look at replay is; lets say you are 16 and your curfew is 11pm. You are at a party and it is really awesome. All your friends are there and it is the party of all parties. You are suppose to be home in 15 minutes, man....so what do you do? You say "F it" I don't want to miss out, I will deal with mom and dad after. And since you are already going to be in trouble, might as well go for the gusto and get home at 5am...for some the next morning and others 2 days later.
On a side note about your comment on loneliness; I know someone had said they don't feel lonely because of the replay highs, but from my experience loneliness was a constant theme through my own crisis, a deep feeling of loneliness that fueled my behaviour, even during replay. It wasn't from anywhere I could pinpoint, therefore I blamed my H. My sister and H have both vocalized loneliness throughout their crisis as well as a need for attention.
Hugs to you~
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
I am glad you moved back into your home. You have stated what is on your mind and now...you need to give her time to digest all that has happened over the last few days. Going dark/dim is for you and your peace of mind. It is not to control and/or manipulate her into rethinking her stance/behavior. She is emotionally stunted and she is seeking that time in her life where she ceased growing emotionally. She's not always thinking rationally and you can rationalize w/someone who is irrational.
Do not think for minute that she doesn't think about you and what you have shared w/her. At night, the wheels in her head continue to turn and that is when she has time to think about all that has happened. Don't be fooled that she is having the time of her life because she isn't. She is hurting deeply within her heart and soul. The scars run deep and you cannot see them...but they are there.
She will test your love and patience many times in the days ahead. She will thrive on attention, both positive and negative. The best thing to do is try not to react to what she says or her behavior. Try to stay calm and speak to her in a calm voice, i.e., just as you would to a skittish colt.
BTW, Bluesun has given you excellent advice, based on her crisis.
Try to keep the focus on you and dig deeper for patience.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
Thank you guys. My initial plan was to get the wheels turning for D. I may still call my attorney to get some ground work done but want to see how things go over the next couple of weeks. I was out for one night and will return tonight. Plan is to avoid her at all costs and keep to myself and the kids. I really don't want to interact with her.
I hope this is her wake up call but who knows.....
Thank you Job, I was worried I may be over stepping.
Hamburg, your strength is obvious. When you feel weak step back and breath, don't react. As a doctor you are likely familiar with "bandaids" aka bandages...that's all that replay behaviour is and usually its those bandages that leave glue and a rash and worst of all rip the scab right off when you remove them. Food for thought~
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.
In her mind, the only way to get you to back off a bit and give her space is to take off the ring and throw love notes in the trash. They do like to throw the word "divorce" around too. Hopefully things will change again before the divorce is final.
BTW, the holidays are rough on everyone, especially MLC crisis people. We see a lot of them announcing that they don't feel the same towards the LBS, runaways and those shouting they want divorces from November to March. Emotions tend to run very high for them during this time period.
For now, keep the focus on you and your family. Give your wife plenty of space and time.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I think she really checked out a few weeks ago. Not sure there's any turning back now. I'm giving plenty of space but cannot see how she would change her mind. Shes knee deep in another round of this EA turned PA.
Me: I'm back at home under legal counsel to live in guest room W: I think that's a good idea
Me: did you make a decision W: I want to end the marriage Me: here's how its going to work. No discussion of details, that's for attorneys. House will sell ASAP and I'm calling realtor in morning. I hope we can get along for kids sake. W: I just............... Me: enough has been said
I would continue moving forward and focus on what you need to do in the days ahead. Time will tell, especially once this holiday season is behind us.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
I second Jobs comments. With MLC you just never know from minute to minute at times. I would bet she doesn't even know herself what she wants, she may be convincing with her antics but the drama is to convince herself even more than you. They want to create space to run and avoid, they dont realize it is in the escape they get the hard lessons; its only later they have the understanding once they process the damage. Cycling is a crazy maker.
I had a counsellor tell me that my H wasn't in an A because he didn't love me, its is actually the opposite. He has all this love inside that he pushes down but he still wants to feel that love and doesn't truly want to let me go so he puts it on someone else, but they have not earned it. He said that is why they fall so fast; the immaturity, infatuation and the misplacement of love. Once the processing, maturing and the infatuation fades they realize the love is misplaced on the AP and they get some clarity. This is what he told me anyway and it was before I really understood MLC.
You are in my prayers~ big bear hug
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
So is my play here to give it time? I am tempted to just get things moving. Though she may stall......
I am curious about her willingness/encouragement to let me stay here in the guest room. When this was round 1 she insisted I leave the house and never come back.
If your w is in some sort of EA or PA with OM then you are in a 3 way relationship
You only know what is going on with you
And you only see glimpses of what is going on with w
And you have no idea what is going on with OM
When my w would be all infatuated with OM
Then I was treated like garbage and told I had to leave immediately
And yes she was wedding planning
And then things would cool off with OM
And she would be nice again
This is why we say focus on you
You can only control you
If w is in MLC then she may be all over the place
And she may keep flip flopping
Day to day or month to month
Stay strong and steady
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
The only way you can really know what is going to happen is to watch and wait
While you are living together- it is most difficult
I use to wake up at 3am and notice my H was still not home
Many of us wait it out to some degree to see if the MLCer has an awakening some DO and these still usually take time
The time we use waiting is never wasted usually we are in therapy, in church or support groups learning about ourselves and what happened Learning how we can best navigate our situation, learn and grow from it and deal with our feelings of grief, hurt, and pain-
During the transition, we learn to best support the kids as they are hurting also-
We do things now, whatever seems best and many of us have NO regrets later- We know we did all we could for our situation Hang in
married 14 years H 42 bomb 2/07 IDLYA D final 3 /09 M ow D ow
Truth is, my attorney advised me that if i get suspicious to hire a PI to do surveillance. She met EA in a parking lot and told him she thought I was having an A and she needed to talk to him.she was frantic about it. They haven't met or talked in 2 months. They make small talk and then discuss future meet ups, all in a parking lot. Next is wed during day and after that mid dec. She even tells him she doesn't want to raise suspicion from me, actively plotting this behind my back. They end up making out and discuss they can't talk or text until next meeting. She tells him this is what she wants out of life but feels bad for destroying a family. No talk of sex, and next meeting she will be on her monthly cycle.
It hurt to hear but I could have carried on like this for months, getting comfort and finances from me and something else from him. I feel used.
My big question is, if you're going to have an affair, why not do it full force and not once per month in a parking lot in broad daylight? It seems she wants her cake and give each of us little nuggets to keep us interested.
Hamburg, nothing they think or do makes any sense. They are spinning between what they think they want and what they already have. Trying to understand it and track their movement will do nothing but make you crazy.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Yes it does make me crazy. I have decided she violated terms of commitment and am moving forward with D. I think even if she tries to come back my way I cannot do it. I love her deeply and this hurts. She is a different person. This may very well end up being finalized soon and then it will be too late for any hope.
Or he may not be willing to go further until the D
Or they are doing more that you do not know about
You never really know
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
1. You are correct that she is a different person and your old M is dead. It can always be resurrected and rebuilt.
2. MLC take a long time...it is a marathon, not a sprint.
3. It is your choice whether or not to pull the trigger on the D, but it won't stop the love you have for your W.
4. Hope has no timeline.
5. We have to do what is right for ourselves to overcome the hurt and the pain. Will finalizing the D actually take away the hurt and the pain?
6. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. Proverbs 3:5-6 New International Version (NIV)
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
Thanks. Round 1 of replay was dynamic, explosive and hateful. She had full control of things and I was pursuing. Then we reconciled for a month. Round 2 seems so much more calm and cool....at least for now. I have control and told her how the D will work. I am not pursuing. I have grown and can handle the threats and daggers. I started to detach and she started to check out. When I told her I wouldn't be friends after the divorce she really began to check out. I started to GAL and it got to the point she was asking me who I was with and I would just reply "friends". I guess she took that as me having an A, throwing her back in to his arms.
Now she seems subdued and has a sad look on her face.....hopefully remorse. During round 1 she was energetic, hateful and took every chance to tell me how much better OM was then me and how great her life will be without me.
If we agree on terms the D can be final in a matter of days (filing was in July). I want to at least get through the holidays ... for the kids sake. I don't want them remembering christmas as the time we split as a family.
We had thanksgiving plans as a family but now I will take kids out myself.
[/quote] Truth is, my attorney advised me that if i get suspicious to hire a PI to do surveillance. She met EA in a parking lot and told him she thought I was having an A and she needed to talk to him.she was frantic about it. They haven't met or talked in 2 months. They make small talk and then discuss future meet ups, all in a parking lot. Next is wed during day and after that mid dec. She even tells him she doesn't want to raise suspicion from me, actively plotting this behind my back. They end up making out and discuss they can't talk or text until next meeting. She tells him this is what she wants out of life but feels bad for destroying a family. No talk of sex, and next meeting she will be on her monthly cycle.
It hurt to hear but I could have carried on like this for months, getting comfort and finances from me and something else from him. I feel used.
My big question is, if you're going to have an affair, why not do it full force and not once per month in a parking lot in broad daylight? It seems she wants her cake and give each of us little nuggets to keep us interested.[quote]
H
You are a smart patient man from what I have read. Based on this reporting if she were a friend and not your W what would you get from this information.
Case study..keeping in mind MLC is irrational, frantic, paranoid and immature behaviour.
The OM is accepting a "relationship" that consists of meeting in a parking lot & no communication until she initiates, what does this say about their character and the dynamics in the "relationship". Any woman knows you plan around your "monthly" so that's interesting. It seems she is in desperate desire for control. I had read somewhere that the MLS doesn't have interest in the LBS, I question that though. In my experience the LBS is the target of interest for the MLS. Maybe not for a distancer, but for a clinger/boomerang I think so
Like a teenager she thinks she is pulling one over on you like you are her parent trying to ruin her fun so she has to sneak out the window to not get caught.... If she is thinking like I was, she probably figures you will "get mad at her" but its not like you will kick her out of the house for good, cause you love her right. Think like a teenager or a child, that is where her rational is. Like a toddler she will use the same control tactics, how do you deal with a young child, options and choices and firm boundaries. Options and choices are an illusion of control and they work to feed that want of control in a more positive way. Boundaries help reduce their choices' affect on you.
She is definitely filling her present needs some with you and some with the OM. Her present needs are not true needs in the sense of the pyramid of needs. She has selfish needs getting filled as well. You got it, lots of cake!
I actually feel bad for her, that she is so caught in the drama of running that she doesn't see the damage or what she is missing out on. What a waste of time eh....chasing her tail like a puppy....when she falls she might be in for a hard landing.
Part of the allure is getting away with it, the affair I mean. So, it may be just wanting to steal that lipstick, not walk out the store door with a lawnmower...still get the high feed. If that makes sense.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
I agree with you as to the remorse that is on their faces at times.
When they are in a state of Limerence, there is nothing that will get through to them. I am of the belief that at some point they kind of has buyers remorse.
Me 49 W46 T25 M22 S22 D18 S13 W had EA Apr-Jul 2016 Dropped Bomb 7/9/16 ILYBINILWYA HER DIVORCE IS FINAL...8/18/17 Dropping the rope to SURVIVE & THRIVE!!!
If you are not concrete on the D, take a bit more time. Things could change as they often do with MLC.
How is the D going through legally going to change the situation and what are your hopes in regard to it.
If you are using the finalizing to gain/maintain control it may not work the way you hope.
Patience is hard but necessary if deep in your heart you desire reconciliation with your W, not the MLC W but the one at the end of the crisis. Just make sure the D is what you truly want and recognize why you want it. If its for control or reaction to the situation then maybe think on it. If it is because there is nothing left in your heart and you could never forgive or see your family together after the crisis...then maybe think too. Just don't do it out of spite and control.
You are hurt, understood. It is brutal and surreal, understood.
She is trying to get the high from replay and its not there like it once was.
Patience is hard.. keep your expectations low. She will let you down they always do, but, unconditional love is a powerful thing.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Wheels turning with the D have to do with evidence now she violated terms of the M. It crossed a boundary for me, and I cannot live on a M that way. I mean, plotting things for a month from now behind my back? Np bueno. At first I was angry and wanted depositions , I was going to kick her to the curb jobless and without a place to go. Looking at her face and at my children I cannot do that. I initially wanted out of the house by whatever means necessary and was willing to sell it rock bottom. Now that I've had time to think I want to give her a chance to find a job and get through the holidays with all of us under the same roof. It may not be glamorous but want the kids to have pleasant memories of our last christmas together.
Watching the sky for the space shuttle return...relief, lights at last BD May/12 (37, H41- D18 D13 S11) July 2012 ILYBNILY reconcile oct/12 no AP 2nd BD Jan/18 start again Original AP
Forgot to add. The physician in me sees this as black and white. She made a decision to withdraw from the M and doesn't love me anymore. The DB in me sees a frail human in a time of great need who needs help. It's a real catch 22.
Forgot to add. The physician in me sees this as black and white. She made a decision to withdraw from the M and doesn't love me anymore. The DB in me sees a frail human in a time of great need who needs help. It's a real catch 22.
She is wearing her "do not resuscitate" wrist-band.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Forgot to add. The physician in me sees this as black and white. She made a decision to withdraw from the M and doesn't love me anymore. The DB in me sees a frail human in a time of great need who needs help. It's a real catch 22.
She is wearing her "do not resuscitate" wrist-band.
Yes. I am done being a shoulder to cry on and we are not even speaking.
I would leave her to stew in her own pot of juices. I certainly wouldn't bend over backwards to try to talk to her right now. As I mentioned early, continue moving forward and keep the focus on you and what you need to get through the holidays.
Last edited by job; 11/21/1802:19 PM. Reason: added link to new thread
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
