Getting Back to my Old Self

[DonH]

I want to be careful how I word this because I really, genuinely value pretty much EVERY SINGLE COMMENT that is provided here. I may not agree, I may even very much disagree but I value and consider the input and don't ever want to diminish or discourage that. That said, it does get tirering when people seem to just shoot from the hip, give two seconds of thought and maybe even repeat things I think I've clearly explained in the past. Once again, Dawn you do not even come close to falling into this group. You clearly take the time to read, think, weight your comments and then provide them as best you can. You never shoot from the hip, so I just wanted to be clear about that.

Of course just because I may often agree with what KML or Ginger or Dawn say, does not mean I always do, nor that I don't value or want to hear from others!

As KML did this morning, Dawn has now pretty much answered the telephone thing just as I would have. But I'll ask as well, what was I supposed to do? We live over 60 minutes apart - and with a major road construction project going on that Wild Girl really didn't want to drive through, it was taking her closer to 75 minutes to get to me - and another 75 to get back home. We are both rather busy - her being a full-time single mother. The kids NEVER EVER NOT ONCE stay with their dad. If we didn't talk on the phone, we would not have gotten to know each other. I am careful about text - especially early on as it can get confused. But even on the phone, much of it was just mindless banter and fun. It was not deep, serious stuff but even when it was, it was NEVER her crying on my shoulder, talking about other guys, etc. We did have deeper conversations but it was often on the phone - not in person - that she'd tell me how she just had a long conversation about me with her BFF or with her work BFF. It was THOSE comments that pulled me in closer. While she said "We are just hanging out" her other words and actions showed different - like going to a concert with her female cousin and sending me pics while it was going on and calling me on her way home while cousin was driving. She would often text me a photo of where she was and share things with me. It's these things that brought us closer and SHE initiated much of it. I know this coach would say, don't do that, but if I didn't I'm betting we'd never have gotten as close as we did.

Again this coach is mostly running a business, from what I can tell, has absolutely ZERO training other than being self taught by experience, and is selling his books and coaching "services". All the more power to him. Some of his concepts are solid and I'd agree with them. Others, especially these "rules" and "read my book 10 times" I just question more heavily. I just don't think his tactics are for getting a quality woman. I think it's for having better game to hook up. That's just my take.

Again Dawn you are very much on target with saying you'd reimburse me for costs if you bailed. I strongly believe Wild Girl would do the same - or at least offer to. Among the things in the "plus column" for her is she has always from the first date on been extremely generous. No matter how much I tried, she would not let me pay for our first real date and has always continued to pick up the tab, bring things along with her, buy things, etc. She may well have paid for more things of us getting together than I have. She's also never done one thing - even hinted about backing out of the cruise. EVERYTHING toward this end is ME mind reading or guessing - based on her past and now more recent behavior. She did back out of one or two planned events and talked about backing out of more than half of them - but then went through anyhow. I think that's just part of her and her anxiety. I really do think the only way she will bail on me now is if we have a really big argument, or she gets a BF who doesn't want her to go. I don't think either will happen but if they did, I think she'd offer to pay whatever it took to fix. I know if she did, her friends, family, kids - everyone will look at her and say "Wild Girl are you crazy, you're going to back out on such an incredible opportunity?" And I'm sure she knows this.

Yet again, the costs involved have really not been my concerns, it's the logistics of it all - including now assigned seats on Delta. Even if I did blow off that ticket and pay for someone else, she'd likely not get on the same plane - and for sure not sitting with me and the 6 others. What would have to happen is to get that plane ticket name changed. That's really the only legit option.

But let's stop talking about it. It's not yet happened (WG bailing), I don't think it will so what remains now is what I want to do going forward - not only with Wild Girl but with anyone. That's my focus. I still need to respond to JuJu and then it's getting close to time for a new thread - very opportune time for a new thread actually. Life is a process and you learn new things with every R you have - no matter what kinda of R it is. I've learned things about myself and am discovering more. I thought I knew what I wanted and didn't want, and mostly still think I do but I may be wrong or it may be shifting. That's where I'm going to start my focus on for the new thread when it's started. Thanks again EVERYONE for your comments. They are valued..

[DonH]

JuJu, you asked quite a bit of questions, some going back quite a bit in time and I'm not sure are as relevant as you think they might be, but who knows, so I wanted to try to answer and maybe I'll learn something.

Most women (not all) are "clingy" when they really like a guy.

Ugggg, if this is true, then I'm screwed. LOL. Right or wrong, I just am hugely turned off by this. Perhaps much too deep for here, but I guess in someways, I'm turned off by anyone who wants me that badly. I'm hugely confident, as you all know, but I don't think I'm all that. I hesitate to put it this way but I sorta feel like, what's wrong with you that you are into me - or into anyone - that much that you are acting sooooo clingy. Whatever, it lowers my attraction.

Do you want to be taken seriously? Meaning as a serious consideration to be a life long partner to another person?

Well, I most certainly always want to be taken serious BY EVERYONE. Very much so. But that's far different than wanting to be a serious consideration to be a life long partner. Because - ABSOLUTELY NOT am I looking to find a life long partner. Anyone looking to find their next husband or says they want to be married in the next 5 years or looking for their soulmate or want to find someone to grow old with - yeah, not what I'm looking for. For the last 10 plus years what I've wanted is simply to find someone to do things with on a regular basis, talk with, have fun with, be intimate with, etc. If I happen to meet someone that goes farther, I will try my best to not run away from it and do all I can to embrace it. I can see myself possibly living with someone, I have no problem just dating one person and no others as I'm actually very sick of finding new people to date. So that I will do but if the questions is "Do you want to be seriously considered as a life long partner by the next person you date" that answer is NO!!!

Was your ex wife wayward or a walkaway? Are you at peace with the way things ended?

My ex was a walkaway. Knowing what I know now, she was very likely a love addict. She lied to me in the beginning which just added to going against what I'd do now. She was not yet D'd when we met and started dating. Knowing what I know now, I'd never have even dated her. I would not take anyone until they are D'd for at least 6 months. To top it off, she told me they had been separated for over a year and were just finishing the D paperwork. Seemed fair enough. However, the truth was they started separating over a year ago but she ran away or became his WAW only three weeks prior to us meeting. She clearly ran away from him and right to me. I was the only guy she dated after that husband.

Yes I am very much at piece with how her and I ended. I saw her for the first time in I think 8 years last week and had absolutely no feelings. I am glad I am away from her and pretty sure I'm happier. I very much value the time we had together - it was likely among the happiest time of my life, including with the kids, who I am still close with. Thing is, while I was like 99% happy with my life, she was not with hers - and I'll bet she still is not. So I'm not at all happy of being lied to and used, but I'm fine with how it all ended.

Do you feel guilt? Have you come to terms with that guilt? Have you made amends?

Guilt from how I was in the marriage you mean? I'm not sure I feel guilt. I feel bad about some of it, I've learned a lot, I've changed quite a bit. But I was very much who I said and showed myself to be. I told her clearly what I wanted and did not want out of future life - including that I really never wanted to get married again. Yet, she thought I would change or things would change after we were married. Nearly everything she told me was just not the truth. Heck, I'm not sure she even know this of herself. I told her I value my alone time, absolutely do not want to have more kids, etc. She claimed she was fine with all of that while the truth was, she HATES to be alone, wants to be with her partner 24/7 and wanted to have another child - and now has adopted a DOWNS baby who is 4 or 5. Not at all even close to the life I wanted with her. I wonder how long the guy she had the affair with and has now married will hang in there. He's her third H but I will give him this, he's close to being the longest and I'm pretty sure is her longest R.

Do you feel worthy of being in a relationship with someone capable of loving you?

Great question! Do I feel worthy? Absolutely. Again, I have huge self-esteem. I am very worthy of pretty much anyone I chose to let in my life. I'm very picky as to who I let in - and I guess sort of am picky about how worthy they are to be in my life. But, being worthy is different than wanting it. I don't want the obligation, I don't want to put in the work, I don't want the hassle. I love being able to do whatever I want to do when I want to do it. I constantly told my friends that anytime I think about getting or wanting a GF, all I need to do is hang out with them and listen to all of their stories and struggles and that will knock it out of me. I have no problem being alone. The only real downside is not having someone to do things with. Yes I have lots of friends and a smallish family that keeps getting smaller, but it's not the same as having a special someone. I've just not at all found that person and the "cost" is just too high. However, when things like this cruise, or a wedding, or vacation trips come up is when I regret it. I have extra PTSD around the cruise - mostly because I did so many with my ex w, with friends, family, the kids. I was on and/or ran nearly 10 cruises and they were among the happiest times in my life. I skipped one opportunity right after my D but then went on one in 2009 and it was HELL for me - really, really bad going by myself, to the point I never wanted to go through that ever again. I even skipped another free offer three years ago because I could not find anyone to take. It was truly depressing to say no to a free 7 day vacation THAT I PLANNED but it really was that bad for me. That's why I'm so over the top hyper about this one. I'm sure it's partly PTSD.

That's wordy but sum it up with, I'm not looking for a full on R so I mostly look for someone like myself and they are out there - or at least I'm told they are. The problem is, I got in deeper with Wild Girl than I thought I would and it's now making me wonder if I don't need or want more. Using people here, taking away looks, age, everything other than their mindset and what they want, I would NOT be a match with Ginger. She wants to get married again and wants a full-time BF. Being in an R is one of the most important things in her life. I might be a better match with Dawn as she doesn't want those things as much but has not closed the door and could see herself back there again. I could fully see myself with someone like KML who can take it or leave it, has no need to get married again but could see herself with one guy for as long as that works should it happen. That's what I need to find, but in my area, that I'm attracted to, etc. etc. etc. Easier said than done.

I hope all of that both answers your questions, helps everyone better understand me, and maybe even gets me to understand where I am. Best I know right now, I guess I want more than I thought I did, but still not as much as the typical person seems to.

[Ginger1]

DonH, I have always been honest with you, and I plan on continuing to do so, and I hope you don't get offended.

But you sound like you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want an R only on your terms, where you only get the fun stuff and none of the real stuff. You just want the good parts of someone, but not all of them. Is that really fair, or even feasible? I mean it sounds all nice on paper, but reality does not work that way. What are you willing to give to make the stuff you want happen?

And no, we wouldn't be a match. But no, I don't want to get married again, and having an R isn't one of the most important things in my life. You are way off base on that. What is important to me, is that when I am in an R, is that a person can take all of me, and not just the pieces that they see fit. I lived in a marriage like that, subsequent R's like that and it is an awful feeling. But I do think our age makes a difference perhaps in what we want, and the fact I have a young child. I do desire a life partner, whether we marry or not, someone who takes the good, bad and ugly and not only the parts they want. That is a true life partner. And you are correct, I desire it. But I think you need ot truly look at the reality. I am not intentionally trying to speak for Dawn or KML, but yes, they are comfortable alone (I am too, just don't want toe alone for the rest of my life) but these are strong women who value themselves and I think they want to also be someone who doesn't just chose the easy and fun parts of an R, and understand that to get the fun person to go on cruises, have good dates, good sex, and to have their partners show consistency, there will be work and commitment to do so.

Don, you have a lot to offer a partner. And there is a woman who has a lot to offer you out there. But do fully capitalize on that and get the most out of that, you might have to get out of your perfect scenario comfort zone.

[LH19]

I get you and J9 are saying this dating coach that y'all are a fan of says this is a no-no, but if Don and WG were both into it and it was working for them, who cares what the dating coach says?

Dawn,

I also understand what you are saying and agree that his teachings are not for everyone.

I admit I got a little defensive when Don totally discounted what he teaches mainly because he doesn't have credentials and was divorced. We all no that's BS because there are plenty of people with credentials that don't know JS.

Coach was mainly trained under Tony Robbins who is probably the most world renown strategy teacher ever. So it's not like he is just making the $hit up. I combine what I learned from DB and him and other various sources and it is working really well for me right now.

Lastly is response to Don's comment to J9, the coach basically tells you not to be robotic in your responses. He just teaches fundamentals so you are prepared for every situation thrown at you.

I just offered up to Don what might have happened to his relationship with WG. Certainly only she knows.

[TBSakaJ9]

I just don't think his tactics are for getting a quality woman. I think it's for having better game to hook up. That's just my take.

What is your definition of a quality woman? Is WG a quality woman by your standards?

[Dawn70]

I am not intentionally trying to speak for Dawn or KML, but yes, they are comfortable alone (I am too, just don't want toe alone for the rest of my life) but these are strong women who value themselves and I think they want to also be someone who doesn't just chose the easy and fun parts of an R, and understand that to get the fun person to go on cruises, have good dates, good sex, and to have their partners show consistency, there will be work and commitment to do so.

I don't mind you speaking for me on this one. I'm just fine alone. I was raised to be independent and to NOT rely on anyone else to take care of me or make me happy. And, it is a good thing I learned that lesson, because it just never seemed to be in God's plan for me to be with someone until I was a little older. Sure, I dated and had relationships prior to meeting my XH in my mid-30's but even when I was younger, I didn't know what it was like to have a boyfriend all the time, so I was very conditioned to being alone. I had a full life then with friends and family and I continue to have a full life post D. I'm not saying I don't miss companionship from time to time as I do, but I honestly have no idea if I'll ever get married again and I'm ok with the thought that I very well might not. I could live with that. I think I have a lot to offer a partner. Like Don said of himself, I am very confident in who I am and what I bring to the table and my self-esteem is not at all lacking. And, because of those things, I'm not willing to settle, so if my choice is being alone or settling, I'm going to choose alone every single time. Of course, right now, I have Sparky in the mix and I'm enjoying that but if it ended tomorrow, while I would be sad in the moment, I would eventually get back to a place of "it wasn't meant to be". I was so blessed when I was growing up to be raised by parents who taught me to value myself first and most and to not rely on others for my happiness. It is a good feeling.

Having said all that, I don't necessarily think it makes people who do seek relationships bad or anything. They just think differently than I do and as I say all the time, that is a true blessing, because I'm ok with myself, but Lord help us all if everyone was Dawn. YIKES!!!!!! I don't want to live in a world of Dawns. I want to live in a world that includes one Dawn (me) and lots of other opinions as well.

Dawn,

I also understand what you are saying and agree that his teachings are not for everyone.

I admit I got a little defensive when Don totally discounted what he teaches mainly because he doesn't have credentials and was divorced. We all no that's BS because there are plenty of people with credentials that don't know JS.

Coach was mainly trained under Tony Robbins who is probably the most world renown strategy teacher ever. So it's not like he is just making the $hit up. I combine what I learned from DB and him and other various sources and it is working really well for me right now.

Lastly is response to Don's comment to J9, the coach basically tells you not to be robotic in your responses. He just teaches fundamentals so you are prepared for every situation thrown at you.

I just offered up to Don what might have happened to his relationship with WG. Certainly only she knows.

LH,

I think that everyone has to do what works for them. If this "coach" person works for you and J9, more power to you. I'm not a man so I don't think from the same vantage point that you all do, so I have not looked this guy up nor listened to him. He may well be the greatest thing since sliced bread. I will say, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, based on what you and J9 have said about him, he just seems arrogant to me, but that may be WAY off since I have not taken the time to actually listen. Again, that is just my perception of things I have read that you all have said. Maybe I misunderstood something J9 posted to Don but it seemed to me that he (J9) was saying that this coach advocated just ghosting someone if you weren't feeling it and that just seems immature and childish to me. Not saying that women don't do it, so don't think I'm dishing on men here. I think bad, immature, childish behavior absolutely goes both ways in the dating world.

While I understand your feeling defensive about what Don said (don't we ALL get defensive when someone talks against someone that we respect, like, listen to, whatever?), I also understand Don's point. I wouldn't want to take dating advice from some chick whose goal in life was to be a sugar baby. Don doesn't want to take dating advice from someone who seems to him as a player (sorry for putting words in your mouth, Don...feel free to tell me shut the h3ll up and not talk for you). It's like I say all the time to my friends and family, I want to take advice on specific subjects from someone who has walked a mile in my shoes. That is one reason I value this DB site. We have all been down a similar path, whether we got there the same way or not. I mean, I'm a fat girl, so if I want to go to a work-out class or watch a work-out video or whatever, I don't want some skinny little twig leading it who doesn't break a sweat or breathe heavy. I want a fat chick like me who can't even hardly talk because she can't catch her breath but she's giving it all she's got. THAT would inspire me to keep going, not the 95 pound chick who can run a marathon and still go out and party the night away with her friends. May be a bad analogy but hopefully you get my point...............we all have value in our viewpoints and we have said viewpoints based on our own experiences, reality, perception, etc. And, I end this hi-jacked message on Don's post to you, LH, by saying exactly what I said at the beginning of it, you have to do what works for you and if this person has things that work for you, rock on with it. We all have to take our sage advice from the person that is giving it to us in the form that best works for us.

[LH19]

Dawn,

It doesn't really matter but I just want to clarify two things:

1. He doesn't teach ghosting people. J9 was wrong and admitted so in this thread.
2. He is not a player. Now if you use his teachings to be a player that's on you. His website is called Understanding Realtionships.

The point really is before being critical people should take the time to actually do some research first.

[Maika]

Who is this coach? I am intrigued.

[Dawn70]

Dawn,

It doesn't really matter but I just want to clarify two things:

1. He doesn't teach ghosting people. J9 was wrong and admitted so in this thread.
2. He is not a player. Now if you use his teachings to be a player that's on you. His website is called Understanding Realtionships.

The point really is before being critical people should take the time to actually do some research first.

You are absolutely right on both accounts. It doesn't matter and people should do research before being critical. I did see where J9 admitted being wrong about what he said but if I hadn't happened to see it and was just left with the impression that ghosting is good is part of this person's message, then that would leave a bad taste in my mouth about said person's teachings. I didn't say the guy was a player. In fact, I said he may be the best thing since sliced bread. Don't know, haven't listened/watched. What I DID say was maybe Don doesn't want to take dating advice from a player and that is a total assumption ON MY PART based on what I read of Don's responses about this guy. He may not think that at all and I spoke out of turn. If so, I apologize to you and Don both for assuming and making statements based on my own assumptions.

My whole point was that we have to take the advice that works from us from the sources that work for us. If this person gives advice that works for you and J9 and whoever else it works for, that is awesome! I'm glad that you found advice that works for you. We are ALL different and we see things and react to things differently. We are also "talking" via text conversations and as I have stated time and again, there is absolutely NO context behind this written word, so you don't know if I'm being hateful, condescending, supportive, nice, whatever. I can disagree with someone and still "hear" their opinion and even respect it. If you all get something out of this guy's advice, I'm glad for you. I'm sure I could site sources that I appreciate advice from that other posters on this forum might well think are just crazier than a bag of hammers and that is fine. We all are entitled to our own opinions and we all receive/perceive information differently.

[Maika]

Ah! Didn't read LH's response before I posted. Found it.