once burned...

[burned]

very important and instructive for your purposes and at this stage of your journey ... he just didn't manage to reconcile his marriage.

Glad I saw that while in a reasonably peaceful state of mind. I think I understand the message.

[hoosjim]

Burned, i will have more for you tomorrow, but for now i want to leave you with this: You still are way, way, way too concerned with "winning back your wife." I can tell because of the questions you ask, which are intently focused on what other people have done vis a vis their wives and what impact it had and how it hurt their chances of reconciliation. Not that i think it is wrong to hope on some level that that eventually comes about but... because you are SO concerned with doing so, your chances are getting slimmer and slimmer. Only when you are able to "let her go", so to speak, will yo u be truly detached enough to give yourself and any future relationship with her it's best chance. And, yes, by then, ironically, you might not even want it any more. It is a bit of a paradox, but it is a crucial one, and learning to navigate it can be the key to successful DB-ing.

[hoosjim]

I'm curious what you mean about how your friend detached in a way that cost him his self-respect and his W's respect. I'm right at that point now and I want to do the best I can. Will I maybe be able to turn it around? Not sure. Is there a bad way to detach? And would it include things like what I did today, when I passively-aggressively left a box of stuff on the porch that she had at one time caringly packed for me as I showed myself the door?

In some ways that is perhaps too harsh on him. Subjectively, yes, i might be inclined to say that about his "self-respect"... i mean i know it was (is?) the prevailing view amongst our circle of friends. But... the dude did find happiness, and did create a life for himself that brings him joy and which he is proud of. He certainly improved his life by any objective standards. So who am or who is anyone to judge that? I do think that his interactions with his now ex-W only increased her disdain and disrespect for him, but, that was his call. Bad way to detach? Idk. Like i said, it sure as heck "worked" for him, at least in terms of his long term happiness. I can tell you his philosophy was very grounded in the viewpoint that "you can only control yourself." I don't know how many times he told me "there are only two things i can control: what i do and how i react to what others do. I can't control what she does. She needs to come back to me of her own free will. I will not do anything to manipulate her in that direction." Adhering to that philosophy, as he saw it, meant eschewing some of the things in the DB-ing books as being "not genuine" or "manipulative." IMO, what he failed to see was that some of those steps and actions, while potentially having a secondary effect of drawing one's WAS closer to you, could also be critical components of improving one's own self-esteem and confidence and, as such, not at all "manipulative" (Unless of course done with manipulation specifically as the goal.) At any rate, within his own philosophy that he adhered to, he did not feel any loss of self-esteem or the like, and his confidence remained, particularly in his faith. It's just a different way of looking things, i suppose, and it worked for him. It just wasn't going to draw his now ex-W back to him. But, perhaps, that is what God is intended and so that's what God spoke to him and why God gave him the incredible patience and zen-like detachment that he did. Who knows. At any rate, I would prolly rephrase what i wrote to say "... to an extreme degree that sacrificed any hope he had of regaining the respect of his W" Because, objectively, i think his "self" respect is probably just fine. It's just that subjectively, and perhaps even objectively, i believe that he could have altered his stance/approach to her, insisting on an appropriate degree of respect for him (and for their children, truth be known) without being manipulative or controlling. He just didn't see it that way.

WRT your episode with the box of stuff, others (particularly AS) have addressed this, and i agree fully with everything they say. You simply need to take control of your own life (and, by extension, your sitch) and act decisively. "Caringly packed" to me indicates she still has you on the hook. She has moved on with her life for now. Time for you to take care of yours.

More background. My W is the oldest daughter out of 7 siblings, working class Catholic family, not much money growing up. A major contributor to this saga, I think, has been her need to "find herself" and "figure out what I want, not what other people want from me" as she was essentially the "2nd mother" helping to raise her 4 younger siblings. Unlike your W, my WW isn't overtly religious but was raised Catholic, confirmed, etc. So she had a traditional religious upbringing but with that sort of secular Northeastern flavor.

Dont think this necessarily "changes anything", but it is interesting to note that alot of WW's seem to share this background: Oldest or at least most responsible older child, often the one responsible for helping to raise, set an example for, or keep the others in line, often seen as the "good child", religious upbringing to a certain extent. These are all things in their pasts that WW's when they go wayward are rebelling against, amongst other things. Sandi and my W both fit this profile. Sandi has written about this quite alot, of course, and if you have not read her WW threads (which start at the bottom of her 35 rules string, you need to. She also discusses these phenomena, as well as others common to the WW, all very helpfully, in my strings... but obviously the info is much more spread out, there.

I did just about everything your friend did until just very recently. The "take her back no matter what," the turning the other cheek, "she needs to find herself," etc. That's me. Sure, my W didn't react quite the way his W did with all the public humiliation, but I'd be surprised if it isn't how she feels. I need 2 hands to count the number of times I made weak boundary threats and then didn't follow through. Several times I said "Hey we can all be friends" or "I forgive you no matter what" or "You're what matters, not your actions" blah blah blah. I even remember her asking me once, around the time she wanted S, "Why would you want to be with someone who is so ambivalent?" Like, directly challenging me. My response? "Because it's YOU." NGS. Until about a month ago I wouldn't tolerate anyone telling me that R wasn't the #1 goal and that my W was "trying her best." Things are a bit different now.

This is good! Your self-awareness on this kind of stuff is improving! Now, what are you going to do about it?

I'm seeing her now in a completely different light, a much darker light. I'll accept responsibility for debasing myself. But I'm getting a LOT better at detaching, and FAST, now that I see the evil. It's probably too late for any kind of turnaround (OK, maybe it's never too late), but somehow that doesn't bother me as much. At least not today. Who knows what tomorrow will bring.

Be careful about the good/evil thing because it is not entirely apt WRT the WW. I remember saying once on my thread something to the effect of i felt like Luke Skywalker because i could "Still see the "good" in my WW. Sandi made a very helpful and insightful response, something to the effect of it was not a question of her being "good" or "evil" but, rather, wayward, which is born from loss of respect, rebelliousness, and selfishness which, yes, may be at odds with the person or personality of the W before she became wayward. I think it would really help you to read and understand Sandi's "profiles" of the WW if you have not already done so. They don't think like normal, rational people.

[SteveLW]

Be careful about the good/evil thing because it is not entirely apt WRT the WW. I remember saying once on my thread something to the effect of i felt like Luke Skywalker because i could "Still see the "good" in my WW. Sandi made a very helpful and insightful response, something to the effect of it was not a question of her being "good" or "evil" but, rather, wayward, which is born from loss of respect, rebelliousness, and selfishness which, yes, may be at odds with the person or personality of the W before she became wayward. I think it would really help you to read and understand Sandi's "profiles" of the WW if you have not already done so. They don't think like normal, rational people.

While I agree with this in general, I think what burned meant is what most of us have dealt with in regard to a WW. In my sitch I had a very moral, upstanding, modest W throw all that to the wind in her EA. She was suddenly, willing to cast aside her religious beliefs, definitely her modesty, and engage in very immoral behavior. I remember pointing out to her how she didn't tolerate TV or movies that used foul language, but was allowing the potential OM#2 so use all kinds of bad words in exchanging messages with her. It was very puzzling.

Even sandi points out how the WW is willing to shuck her morals in the name of her A conquests. It is puzzling. Especially when she was engaging in activity that she would have condemned if she had witnessed others engaging in it just weeks before.

burned, HJ is right though. None of that matters. Trust me, from personal experience, pointing out that her behavior does match-up with her pre-wayward morality will get you no where except more frustrated. Logic doesn't work. As HJ said "They don't think like normal, rational people." In fact, my WW would still talk about her morals, but was living a life contrary to them!

[burned]

Thanks. Busy stressful day but I wanted to respond to this quickly.

AS and Amoafwl have been jackhammering me with the "move on with your life" thing and I'm making slow progress there.

It's taking all of my strength to just STOP thinking about how any of this will affect her. I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Have gotten to mid-August in your threads, and I've gotten through the first couple of Sandi's threads (had read them in the past but they never sank in because I didn't approach my sitch as 100% WW).

Also struggling daily with the decision on whether to D. I mean, really, she's just done. I'm OK with letting it just rest. But I'm starting to lose the respect of everyone else in my life for not doing it. As of yesterday I'm getting a little bit better at saying, "Thanks, I appreciate your concern and your input, but I'd rather not talk about that right now."

Gotta run. More later. Thanks again!

[equalzr]

Jim, i hadnt heard about WW's having religous backgrounds, oldest child, and being the role model in common. To say my W grew up in the church is an understatement and she is the eldest child as well. She wasnt a role model child growing up either. She definitely rebeled during her teen and college years. There was some lying and things that went on in her parents M before their D. From what she told me when we first started dating, her father kind of went missing some nights as well(she denies it now).

[burned]

I guess to follow up on the "done" thing, I know it doesn't matter and I can't change it. Just expressing my usual regrets about how I could have done better if I had gotten to DB sooner. I think I had a window of opportunity in May and I completely blew it. She then realized that OM was a better option. Then came S.

MC was done in the name of "coming to a decision" about whether to stay in the MR. Mostly it was a delay tactic. The decision was made in her heart long before. But the feeling of finality that came on that day, along with all the talking we had been doing about how hard of a decision it is to make, "I love you but I can't be with you if I'm not safe," and just the way she said, in essence, "I've carefully thought it over and this is what I am choosing to do with my life" really rattled me. I was in shock at first, then denial for self-protection.

Now it's just pain. Her actions: taking off the rings, deleting me from the house, putting the furniture she always hated out on the front porch, etc. Completely consistent with absolute certainty. Words, not so much. But we know those are useless. Even last weekend she said, "This is so hard, I've never had to go through something like this before, I'm trying to take it one day at a time."

I'd say she is, or IT FEELS LIKE she is, the kind of person that MWD, in DR, describes as "only a miracle could change her mind."

Not to say that any of it matters in terms of what I need to do. Just venting some extremely powerful feelings of grief. I had kept up a hopeful delusion for MONTHS that something would improve. It never did. I've been fighting a heroic battle. At least now I'm fighting for myself, mostly. But the regrets, the regrets...

As to the "evil" comment. Having taken some time to re-evaluate things in the context of a selfish WW, rather than a loving W who made a bad decision...and based on her attitude toward money (which I have and she doesn't) and how ANGRY she got when I said to her, "You just see me as your bank account," I think that's what it all came down to in the end. She kept me around THE ENTIRE TIME, not just after BD but DURING the A (which may also be ongoing), because of her attitude of, "I worked to put you through grad school, so now you're gonna pay for me." Saying "Yeah but at the time I got to sleep with you, and we were committed to building a future together" won't cut it.

So now I'm making plans for how she's going to fleece me in the D. I live in a no-fault state so I can't duck spousal support by filing due to A. Bummer. Next time, pre-nup.

Sad that WW has stolen from me my belief that the world is a reasonable and relatively kind place. In 10 years if I get turned down for M by someone else because I need a pre-nup, it's still WW's fault. Her selfishness will reverberate for years to come...

Maybe all of this is part of the detachment process. But I'm having trouble thinking to myself "I love her" these days.

[lost8]

F these WSs, I hate that any of us have to go through this.

[burned]

Last post was maudlin but I think it's stuff I need to get off my chest, if only to show my progress on this awful journey. A month ago my mindset was that I would drown without her. At least now I can say, "Hey, she's not such a spectacular person all the time."

There are even moments, like last night, when I can almost believe myself in saying, "I might actually be better off without her."

And last month, the anger and jealousy, thinking that she will have a better life without me, was enough to make me doubt my sanity. Steve called me out on that. But lately it has been replaced with some sadness that, alongside the fact that she could have had a better life with me, she may not find happiness where she's looking for it.

I've learned that my reaction to her sadness is to try to protect her. This insistence on trying to "keep her" is partly driven by a desire for her to have what is best. So I am what is best? Maybe in my mind, but certainly not in hers. In her mind I'm a pitiful, weak, repulsive person, and I'm sure she's relieved to be able to escape.

I hear over and over about WWs finally at some point realizing that what they left was better than what they found. I doubt that will be the case in my sitch. I know I'll be fine either way. But it's not really what I wanted.

So all I can do is move on...

Scheduled a consult with the D lawyer for tomorrow at 2.

[AnotherStander]

AnotherStander:

Eventually started dating and got serious 3 years ago with a beautiful young lady with tatt's, crazy hair colors and a zest for life

Briefly wondered about this a couple of times, because that opportunity was there for me as well. Hmmmm.... Oh, what? Anyway, I'm better off now, though.

LOL! It's fun times for sure, but if someone stuck me back to a time before BD and said "you have two paths to choose, this one is to stay married and continue your life as-is and this one is BD, D, meet this sexy young thing and do all this fun stuff you never had time for" I would without hesitation choose my M. I hope no one reads my comments and thinks I consider it a better alternative to M because I don't. Unfortunately I wasn't given that choice so I made the best with what life handed me, which is really what I hope everyone takes away from my comments. Deal with what you're handed and make the best of it whether it's recon or not. I love reading yours and Steve's posts (and others here who have reconciled) and am thrilled that some of you were able to make it through and save your M, I think THAT is what this site is really all about! But I do enjoy my life, it's a lot different since BD than where I previously thought it was going but it's fun times for sure

Just be aware, burned, when you start turning yourself around, there will be other opportunities out there. I've seen it posted on these forums frequently that often by the time the LBS gets himself turned around, in the cases where the Wayward spouse tries to "come back", the LBS no longer wants anything to do with the wayward spouse, and the LBS then becomes the "walk-away."

Exactly right. Especially if a couple of years (or more) have gone by. A lot of LBS's just want their M back so things will "go back to normal" but at some point the fog clears, you realize things weren't so hot after all, and more importantly you realize there is no going back to normal no matter what happens.

AS and Amoafwl have been jackhammering me with the "move on with your life" thing and I'm making slow progress there.

Yes, I mean I hope you don't think I'm saying "ditch your M" because I'm not, I'm saying your best path forward is to focus on you and your life and quit feeding energy where it's not doing any good. Do that and hopefully -later- recon will be an option. We all go through the "super-needy" phase where we try to do everything we can to get our spouse back, then we pretend we're DB'ing while still being super-needy. Then we eventually start DB'ing while monitoring our spouse every second for changes, and finally we start DB'ing for real. The sooner you start the "real" DB'ing the better your recon chances.

I'm just so stuck on how DONE she is (she NEVER took off her rings, and that was a MAJOR symbolic gesture, as well as removing my last name from her Instagram username). Sounds like, at this point, DB is just "rebuild your darn life."

Steve, Joe and other reconciled men here will tell you they heard the exact same things from their W's. DB is indeed about rebuilding your life, but that doesn't mean there's no chance of recon.