Whirlwind of hurt

[Twofeet]

Thank you hoosjim,

This gives me a lot to think about. To my wife I have not been dragging my feet, but I also haven't been outwardly pushing forward with the D prep. Behind the scenes I am getting ready for it. She also has not been pushing as hard as she did initially. Some of this may be attributed to cake eating, her own mental and emotional state, and/or some may be attributed to DB. Its hard to figure because things are so early at this point in time, and I may never figure it out. It hasn't even been 1 month since the BD. I do have her out of the bedroom, but cannot kick her out of the house. Afer the first few days from the BD she tried to leave, but without her family willing to help she changed her mind. I keep a physical boundary, which sometimes is broken due to kids, but should be understandable especially because nothing happens between us. This physical 2ft bubble boundary is a BIG 180 for me because my love language is physical touch. I have been working on a privacy boundary ie we share a bathroom. As far as the EA goes I am not sure what other boundaries I need to establish. She isn't going around partying at night or acting like some wild single girl. After the confrontation about the EA, I am assuming she is still in communication with the OM, her secret texting and trying to hide her phone have stopped as far as I can tell. She did separate our phone accounts so whatever she does is now hidden from me. She stopped going for drives from dinner to the kids bedtime. When she is at home she usually just lays around in lounge clothes watching shows on her phone or sleeping. I am no longer an open book of trust with her. Financially, she only has access to our joint checking. I locked up our savings so there can be no take the money and run. She doesn't like dealing with money anyway so she rarely checks it. She has no access to my CC although I still have access to hers. She knows I don't want a D but I am going to go through with it regardless.

I can probably work more on the emotional boundaries since she is the one saying the hurtful things. When she is confronted with truth she likes to lash out harder. I have been good about walking away or letting her know what she says is hurtful. While she doesn't apologize for the things she says later she wants to let me know she just want to avoid arguments and wants to keep the peace.

I think one thing I need to work on is detachment vs smoothing things over to avoid argument/confrontation.

I feel like I am not getting it or I am missing something as far as boundaries go.

[hoosjim]

Twofeet, a couple of more thoughts as I am somewhat scattershooting today due to time constraints.

First-- a word on confusion and on having "too many voices" giving you advice. The difference between just reading MWD's books and in reading the books and then frequenting these forums, is that with the former you have only one voice giving you advice. With the latter, you have many voices. Granted, we all here, in theory, and to one extent or another, subscribe to the efficacy and power of DB-ing and believe that following its tenets is a worthwhile and valuable course of action. However, as i said previously, everyone's sitch is different. Everyone's. As a result, each person you encounter on here is going to have a slightly to somewhat different take on the details and specifics of putting DB-ing into action, and whether or not and to what extent and it will work for you and in what time frames. It can be confusing... and also paralyzing. It can also send you careening from side to side and from one solution to the next like a drunken driver in a rainstorm. I know, i've been there. The best thing you can do WRT this dynamic is to know what you want, know what you can live with (would you take your W back if you knew she had slept with OM? If she had slept with multiple OMs?), and, above all, look for the common themes that run through most posters' messages... themes that will usually take you back to core/fundamental DB-ing principles. Look for commonality across posters, things that everyone seems to agree on, and gravitate towards posters whose situations and experiences seem closest to yours, and learn from their successes and mistakes. And, i would say, try harder to find similarities than you try to find differences between other sitches and yours. It gets very tempting to say "My WW is different because..." or "I think what my WW is doing in this instance is acceptable because ________________". Again, i have been there.

Second, a few more words about "ending the affair." As i intimated previously, i am with Sandi2 in believing that if a LBH stands firm against living with a cheater and/or allowing an affair to continue with someone living under his roof, the timeline for any reconciliation (and keep in mind quite often no reconciliation happens or is even possible-- nature of the beast) can be significantly shortened. What i am about to say needs to be caveated with the following: YOU cannot "end the affair." Only your WW (or OM, or both) can "end the affair." You have no control over anyone except yourself. Having said that, you CAN do things that will make it more likely that SHE will ultimately end the affair. (Again, mind you, there are no guarantees, and you can't count on this happening or rely on it's occurrence for your happiness-- sometimes, your marriage is just "over.") Thankfully, most if not all of those things you can do are things that are YOU-focused... things that will make you a better, more confident, and happier "you.":

-- DETACH. Detachment does NOT mean giving up all hope of reconcilliation, nor does it mean avoiding actions that may be in whole or in part aimed at improving your prospects of reconcilliation (This IS, after all, divorce- busting, right?) What it DOES mean is not tying your happiness and self-worth to a successful reconciliation nor to ANY actions your wife may or may not take. You are your own person and you do not need her or a marriage to her to be happy and fulfilled, even as you may prefer that outcome and work towards it, all else being equal. Make sense? Again, read the threads on detachment. And don't focus on fighting with your spouse, or condemning her and her affair. Focus on you. Do you know what the opposite of love is? No, its not "hate", it's indifference. And trust me, nothing gets under a WW's skin like being ignored. It may even help turn her back. Remember, you are never as attractive to her as when you are walking away... or when she doesn't know what you are up to. I saw this in spades in my sitch and it is absolutely true.
-- GET A LIFE. Already covered. Be a Twofeet that only a fool would leave.
-- SET HEALTHY AND APPROPRIATE BOUNDARIES/DEMAND RESPECT. This gets a little more towards the meat of "ending the affair." Here's the thing with affairs-- (and you can find lots of resources online about affair addictiveness without even trying) They are incredibly addictive. Take a lonely, unhappy, perhaps even neglected spouse (even if only in her mind--perception is everything), someone who has been married several years, is perhaps in or approaching middle aged or one of the dreaded "round number" birthdays, and add a mysterious stranger, or even any stranger, who suddenly pays attention to her, compliments her, makes her feel like a woman. It is intoxicating. Evan as a man it can be so-- i recall going out a few times during the rough months with friends of mine, and at one point i just decided "eff it, im just going to be me and enjoy myself", so i did... and women started to pay attention to me. Some, alot of attention. Young, pretty, women, too. And it was intoxicating and very, very tempting. The attention is like a shot of a drug... and you want more. For a WW in the throes of an affair, every contact with OM gives her that shot, that "buzz", that high, and she wants more. It is incredibly hard to break away from. At any rate, as many psychologists/therapists will tell you, the more advanced an affair becomes, at least in the beginning stages, the harder it can be to break away from. A "friendship" with a member of the opposite sex that is "toeing the line" of inappropriate is a lot easier for a WW to turn her back on then a relationship where there is hot and heavy texting and/or secret phone calls or, if it has gone that far, sex. In that sense, and assuming you have a willing and/or motivated WW, it is a lot easier for a WW to tear herself away from an extramarital relationship in the early stages, before it has become fully romantic and/or physical. I have seen this up close and personal and can attest to it. My own W, when the A was discovered, was only in the very early stages of an EA-- no romance or sex, yet, although there was some playful and mildly suggestive talk based on their conversation i inadvertently overheard. At that point it was merely an inappropriate friendship.. something that had gotten just a bit too close, but something about which W was still saying "we could never really do this" (have an affair.) At that point, i confronted her, and she said she cut it off... which she did... for a few weeks. Problem was, i did not follow up. I did not set any boundaries, nor did i demand any accountability from her. Instead, i let myself get talked into (by a well-meaning friend) letting her "explore and find herself", even if that meant seeing OM, and not "trying to control her" with any accountability steps or the like. And so, three or four weeks later, something happened. She met up with OM (probably with assistance from her toxic bff who was friends with OM) at a party, or girls night out, or the like, and things rekindled... and then advanced to the point of romance. Their conversations advanced from "We could never do this, it would hurt too many people" (OM was a good friend of mine) and "I kind of like you, too" (my wife in response to OM's blandishments) to, three months later, my wife, through tears, crying to OM "I just want to jump on you and run away with you and i know that if i come see you right now I wont want to leave." THAT latter sort of dynamic is MUCH harder to break away from, and so it was with us. Almost 11 months, to the day, from that point before my W fully cut the cord with OM and committed to renewing our marriage. Could i have shortened that time line by being prepared, and setting boundaries, and demanding accountability those couple of months prior at first BD? Perhaps....though it would have been much more likely had we had some sort of solid foundation of happiness and companionship previously, which we really did not. Our marriage was, in fact, pretty far gone, to the degree that i consider our recovery miraculous-- an act of God, if you will. Nonetheless, the lessons i learned from the situation are apt. It is clear that, had their been a better foundation (and maybe there was, IDK... my W seems to think now that we did have enough "good" history") that it would have been easier for my W to "snap out of it" and/or start down the road to reconcilliation in February of 2017 than it was for her to tear herself away after the relationship with OM had progressed. My counselor talks about skin to skin contact and oxytocin and how powerful it is but, bottom line, an affair is easier to leave in the formative stages than it is to leave once it becomes hot and heavy.

What does all that have to do with boundaries and respect? Glad you asked...

[hoosjim]

Continued...

Without respect, it is impossible for a woman to feel the kind of romantic love for a man that would underpin a marriage. Sandi2 has written extensively on this so i won't belabor it... besides, it seems self-evident. When a woman loses respect for her husband, she can become "wayward". She may actually even and often does actually "despise" her husband. This can happen for any number of reasons, but it can be addressed in the case of a WW who is in an affair by establishing good boundaries. Some particularly good boundaries are:

"I will not tolerate being yelled at or verbally abused."

"I won't get into an argument in front of the children."

"I wont share my bed (or, better yet, house) with a woman who is cheating on me."

All of these dynamics/events are things that can and obviously would tend to decrease a woman's respect, and, thereby, her desire, for you.

The consequences for violating these or any boundaries are up to you, but the boundaries should be clear, as should the consequences for violating them, and the consequences should be AUTOMATIC. Example: Wife starts shouting at you (for whatever reason), Consequence: You say "I won't be shouted at" or "I won't engage in a discussion with someone who is shouting at me" (or whatever), said in as cool, calm, and confident a manner as you can muster, and then you simply turn your back and walk away. Leave the house if you have to, but don't engage. The consequence of the disrespect of yelling at you is that she is deprived of your presence and the ability to continue the abuse. it gets a little dicier with removing her from the bedroom and/or the house, as you start to run into potential legal issues (you should know the law in your jurisdiction on such things) but, generally speaking unless something extreme is going on, you can't "force" her to leave. You can make her feel extremely uncomfortable and unwelcome and perhaps she will leave on her own, but bottom line is you may ultimately be the one to have to walk. Better if you can maintain ownership of the master bedroom, but not always possible. At any rate, the point is that you should have firm boundaries and firm consequences in place to enforce them when they are violated. You should read up on boundaries if you have not already.

The above is why it can be problematic to "confront" a WW who is having an affair. Once they know that YOU know, if you fail to act you can look weak, which can further degrade the respect dynamic. What woman is going to respect a man/husband who would stand for her seeing another man while living under the same roof?!?! And when a woman is in the throes of an affair, with the seratonin and oxytocin kicks and hits coming every so often, there is no way she is going to "break free" of that and return to a man she does not respect. No, for a WW to truly turn, she has to, as Sandi2 has written extensively about, suffer a "loss". In other words, she has to face the real-world consequences of her actions. One of those consequences has to be losing YOU.

This is why the dynamic in my sitch was so complicated. Me and my W had almost NO foundation for our relationship. She had no respect for me, nor did she have any reason to respect me. We could probably not even have been called friends. So, at the point of BD, "losing" me was not really any loss at all, at least not an obvious one. However, when i found out about the affair, and confronted her, she did cut off contact with OM for a brief period. So, even though i had not established firm boundaries with firm consequences, i was given a sort of reprieve. The problem was, without the respect, and without any other reason or plan to rebuild the marriage, she fairly quickly (about 3 weeks) fell back in with the OM. Thing is, and this is probably a blessing, I did not know she had. Oh, i suspected, of course, but i didn't say anything... told myself she was just going through a hard time. It wasn't until i found her burner phone about two months later that i knew. At that point, after having been told on this forum about "boundaries", i skipped merrily off to establish mine. "I will not share you or live in an open marriage" i said. But that was about it. No transparency plan, no accountability plan, no statement of definitive consequences if she saw OM. We then went through about a two month period where we danced around the issue, with her still doing things like staying out late with the girls (sometimes where she would see OM, i came to find out) and engage in other WW behavior (though we were also going to counselling during this time). I ultimately discovered that she HAD been seeing and talking to OM, and shortly thereafter discovered her second burner phone. At that point, I walked out. And this had a DRAMATIC effect. She wept, asked me not to go, promised to go to counselling, said she had just needed time, etc.. This time, however, i was more prepared. "You want to reconcile?" I asked. "Fine". If so, I am going to have some boundaries, and there is going to be accountability, and transparency. I stated my boundaries clearly and defined what the non-negotiables were: 1) No OM in any way shape or form 2) No girls weekends with bff 3) no post work wine-downs with male doctor and his secretary 4) etc. Any further transgressions and i was done. I would walk. And, by this point, we had actually started to re-establish a connection, to realize that we liked each other and spending time together, and, most importantly, she had seen my GALs were permanent and that i was resolute in the face of disrespect (remember she did not KNOW that I was aware of her cheating for a period of time, yet did nothing.)

From that point on there was a steady improvement in things between us on multiple levels, though there was still a barrier between us. She hadn't quite gotten over the hump. I found out in Late March of this year that OM had been contacting her regularly by phone at work, despite having been confronted by me AND told by her not to. She had been entertaining his calls, though she had not been seeing him (of this i am certain.). But even this alone was enough to keep her from fully giving herself back to our relationship. When i found out, I walked. I was done. And she knew i was done. If not for our counselor, who is just the best, that probably would have been it for us. She brokered a reconcilliation and... here we are.

The lessons and takeaways from all of this? Whew, IDK, lets see... prolly some I'll miss:

1) Know youre situation. Know what you want. Know what you can and cant live with. For me, I knew i wanted to try to save the marriage, and I knew i could take her back after infidelity. What i didn't have a good grasp on was my situation and its implications for reconcilliation. I knew nothing about WAWs or Wayward Wives or how they behaved and responded, nothing about boundary setting, and, really, i did not have a good idea how hopeless our situation was. Later on in the counselling process but before the final blow up and commitment to reconciling, in one of my individual sessions, I filled out a battery at the insistence of my counselor that sought to identify "marital satisfaction." year by year. The scoring parameters indicated that a level of satisfaction showing 10% or less of the married years as "very satisfied" or better were almost hopeless in terms of reconciliation. I scored between 15 and 20%, and i guarantee my W would have been at 10% or below. Had i known more about the WW phenomenon, i certainly would have taken stronger steps early on to set boundaries and reclaim my self respect and possibly her respect. OTOH, had i realized how fragile and ungrounded our MR actually was, that might have indicated a softer tack. At any rate, things turned out well for us but, i think, mostly by the grace of God. My point here, is that knowledge and self-awareness is power and strength. Be informed and be aware and use what you learn. Which brings me to:

2) Respect. Is there a respect void that needs to be remedied? Has your W been habitually abusive to you verbally? Nagging or denegrating to you in front of the kids? That should be addressed. Is there still an affair? Does she know you know about the affair? Act accordingly.

3) She has to experience the consequences of her actions. She has to experience loss. Divorce and affairs are messy, messy, nasty business, but every single WW, without exception, thinks they will ride off into the sunset with their AP, that their kids, family and friends will be perfectly allright with it, and that no one will hate them and that they will live happily ever cheating after. She needs to find out how wrong she is. This means that if she screws up, you let her screw up. Don't cover for her or make excuses with the kids (This doesn't mean you necessarily "out" her affair, either-- that can be a very dicey, harmful, and messy proposition, and doing so or not doing so is fairly controversial... but you can let her take the heat for being late or messing up or whatever without spilling the beans and, if she gets caught by them with OM well.... on her. Dont cover for her.) If you are the primary breadwinner, then you do not subsidize her activities that might tend to serve her affair (hair and beauty expenses, gas to go see OM, etc.) Most importantly, she needs to see what it's like to lose you and to lose her happy family (assuming it ever was happy.) sandi has also written extensively about this, so i urge you to read and reread her stuff.

4) Dont get discouraged. There is always hope, even if it is a slim one, and, while you need to decide how long you think you can "give" her and this relationship, know that it may not take as long as LH19 and some others indicate. Every sitch is different. Mine took 14 months from BD to truly starting "piecing", and that was starting with a nearly hopeless marriage and with me making many missteps along the way. And if you want to be generous and say we were kinda sorta piecing by last August (the time period where OM commenced his regular phone calls), then it was only 7 months. I am somewhat torn on how to view it because i would say that she and i did in fact make some very real progress on reconnecting in that August to March timeframe. But, then again, my sitch was kind of weird and unusual in many ways. Point is, it doesn't have to be, and often is NOT, a "period of years", although it admittedly can be. It all depends on the individual dynamics, how you play it, how much time you give it, etc. At any rate, yo need to keep the faith, and "do you" as much as possible.

Did you know that every counselor out there (prolly even MWD, too) has a "losing record" in terms of saving marriages? Nature of the beast, man. When we reach this point, things by definition tend to be pretty hopeless. But DB-ing is as good a system as is out there anywhere else, and one of the BEST things about it, one of the reasons it is SO good is that it focuses on YOU. What can YOU do for YOU. How YOU can have an awesome life, with OR WITHOUT your current spouse. That even though there may be pain and tears now, during the night, joy can come in the morning.

Keep the Faith. And God bless.

(Also, last note, if you havent', look up the lighthouse poem. it is pretty good stuff. Be the lighthouse.)

Just one more thing: Sandi2, if you read this and i have in any way done violence to your opinions/positions/theories, please please please correct me. Youre help has been invaluable.

Speaking of which: Anyone know where Sandi2 is and if she is okay? Haven't seen her or artista on these boards in over two weeks.

[burned]

Sorry to threadjack but Hoosjim I could really use your wisdom. Could you swing by my thread if you have time? Thanks!

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2808040&page=8

[Twofeet]

Yesterday evening she came home with the kids a little late so dinner was ready when they got home. She had a lot of tension, anger, frustration just reverberating off her. It felt like you could literally see it. I gave her plenty of space and focused on the kids. It got to the point were it was like the elephant in the room. I say I feel like there is some tension coming from you, is there something you need to discuss? She says no her day was rough and her Dad is swinging by to drop off a recipe and say hi and she wishes she would have said no. I said I can understand how a bad day a work can be frustrating and how your Dad causes you anxiety. After he comes and goes she is just being short and distant. She starts talking about splitting up marital assets and getting lists started this weekend. In my head I am thinking about how this feels wrong and this is sounds like it's going to be difficult and hopefully I can keep it from getting nasty. The good thing is that she can longer read my thoughts. I'm not her open book anymore. She is also being super protective and secretive about her phone again... great we are going through this garbage again.
I kept looking at her yesterday evening and thinking in disgust how she doesn't respect me anymore. This attitude, indifference, anger and resentment towards me just shows the lack of respect. How can this man whom she says is a great father to our kids have zero respect. How could she have such unreasonable expectations, of me. I feel like it's never good enough. Sometimes I feel like maybe she never respected me and I was too blind to see it. We always had a strong foundation and had each others back, we acted like a team, a solid unit. Now look at us. It's just disgusting.

Needless to say I stayed chipper and steered clear of her last night. Played with the kids out back and took the oldest for a bike ride.

[Twofeet]

Last night my wife decided to go for another drive after dinner and not come back until the kids bedtime. It upset the kids, but she just ignored their feelings. She told me she wanted to go look at neighborhoods. I said are you sure you want to leave the kids? You do? Ok well have a good time, hopefully you find something you like... Then before she left she started to tell me about how my BIL is interviewing for a new job that would pay enough for her sister to potentially work part time. At this point I have a pleasant outward appearance but inside I am upset she is leaving the kids after they asked her to stay and be with them. So I made a causal observation that was also a bit backhanded because I obviously am not detached enough. I say some stocks rise and some stocks fall. She says oh two feet you don't have to be jealous your stock is rising in your job and industry you are doing awesome. I say I am not talking about myself I am doing great, I will always be fine, I mean the stock in some families rise while the stock in some families fall. This felt like a mistake because she was very upset. She tried to bait me into arguing with her. She started mocking my intonation and saying I need to talk real be real, so I told her I am being real I am just trying to be a more positive person (this is a 180 for me). She says she just has to process this new look I am giving her (obviously from me doing DB, growth & improvement etc) and its all new and she doesn't know what to do with it. She then says something to the effect of this change in me being hard for her after all these years of being controlled by someone (ie me). My IC has been working really hard with validations and gave me some that are hard to say but work well. So I say, I understand how you feel, I would probably feel the same way I was married to someone as controlling as I had been. Well whatever wall she had up you could see visually crashing, she had this 5 sec second look of stunned silence, but then you could see the wall going back up and she said she was leaving and would be back.

That evening I was taking time to lay in each daughter in their bed and cuddle with them. My wife I think decided she wanted me out of the room as she is the one who is sleeping on a couch in their bedroom. I got upset because the girls didn't want me to leave yet and she was giving me the boot. We both got frustrated and she started making some weird hand gestures to represent her anger and frustration and went to use the kids bathroom. I told her I didn't understand whats going on and I am getting tired of the lack of respect. With no response I decided that it was time to head to bed. She later came down to talk and to smooth things over. She told me she was at an all time low right now, so I validated with I understand you are at an all time low, I am guessing you may be struggling too . I say Any healthy person would be struggling in her circumstance. She said she would be ok but she needed grace. Validated again with I care about you and and what happens to you, of course I will give you grace. She said thank you and it calmed her down so I went to bed.

This morning she seemed OK but cautious around me. Wanted to talk about sharing holidays and buying clothes for the kids as separate households. Internally I hate talking these talks, but I just let it go and cooperated with her thought process.

I feel I over came some obstacles and made some baby steps forward, but I just don't know if they are in the right direction. My IC wants me to validate my wife at least once a day even if that means I am the only to strike up the conversation.

[SteveLW]

Two feet, until you stop trying to control her and manipulate her you will continue to be frustrated. There is only one person you can control...YOU.

So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!

Also, next time just ignore her anger at you staying in the kids room longer than she'd like. Let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. When she comes to you later you can honestly say "Oh you were upset? I didn't notice. My attention was on the kids and their wants and needs. Sorry if that upset you." How can she argue with you putting the kids first?

[Twofeet]

Two feet, until you stop trying to control her and manipulate her you will continue to be frustrated. There is only one person you can control...YOU.

So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!

Also, next time just ignore her anger at you staying in the kids room longer than she'd like. Let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. When she comes to you later you can honestly say "Oh you were upset? I didn't notice. My attention was on the kids and their wants and needs. Sorry if that upset you." How can she argue with you putting the kids first?

Steve I agree with you. I am being controlling, it is a complaint she has of me. Sometimes I don't realize I am doing it. I am trying to fix the problem and this isn't something I can fix. I should be letting go and working on myself. This in turn corrects the issue of being to controlling.

[Twofeet]

Two feet, until you stop trying to control her and manipulate her you will continue to be frustrated. There is only one person you can control...YOU.

So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!

Also, next time just ignore her anger at you staying in the kids room longer than she'd like. Let it roll off of you like water off a duck's back. When she comes to you later you can honestly say "Oh you were upset? I didn't notice. My attention was on the kids and their wants and needs. Sorry if that upset you." How can she argue with you putting the kids first?

Steve I agree with you. I am being controlling, it is a complaint she has of me. Sometimes I don't realize I am doing it. I am trying to fix the problem and this isn't something I can fix. I should be letting go and working on myself. This in turn corrects the issue of being to controlling.

When I say fixing the problem I mean the impending divorce.

[AnotherStander]

So when she chooses something over the kids, you choose the kids over all else! Lead by example. Talking vaguely about stocks and rising and falling does absolutely nothing but frustrate you, and make her feel the pressure. Your goal is to remove all pressure!

Exactly right, the stocks thing was a very passive/aggressive comment. Twofeet, you generally did pretty good in that convo, you did some great validating it sounds like. But you're also making some missteps. Not sure if anyone has suggested "No More Mister Nice Guy" to you but it's a good companion read to DR. It's not what the title sounds like, it's about how outwardly "nice guys" are actually quite controlling and manipulative and it's about breaking out of that.