Is It Too Late?

[ovrrnbw]

I hate trying to come up with something useful after Steve posts, he is on it.

I will offer my support and encourage you to detach further. It is clear to me, and to your W I'm sure too, that you are hung up on everything she says and does.

[WillD78]

Thanks, ovrrnbw. I'm a work in progress on detachment, but there is progress. At the very least, I am successfully faking it (till I'm making it) at home. I'm all business with the W and I think I'm doing it successfully, after a few fits and starts. That doesn't mean I'm there yet, but compared to where I was at the beginning of this month, I'm pretty proud of myself.

[WillD78]

Not a lot to report here. Status quo, with a mild screw-up on my part. Of note the past week:

- I ended up paying the bills as usual. I decided on my own to continue to do so until W actually moves into her new place.

- On Saturday, W said she needed to stop by her new place for 30 minutes. She ended up being much longer than that and explained when she returned home that her landlord had installed new carpets and she needed to clean up the remnants. This prompted me to ask her politely and nonchalantly, "When are you going to move out?" Her reply was: "I don't know. I guess I should do it soon, though." I left it at that.

- Also on Saturday, we were invited to our neighbors' house for an impromptu get-together. W and Ds went ahead without me while I went for a jog. I arrived about 30 minutes later and played with my Ds and made small talk with the neighbors. W said she had to run home to drop something at our house and never returned. I returned later with our Ds and we tucked them into bed. I retired to the living room and W went to bed -- a first for her (she normally comes downstairs to wind down with cup of tea or glass of wine and some TV). In the morning she told me that a neighbor followed her into the kitchen at the get-together and asked W, "What's going on with you guys?" W explained to me that she was flustered and basically told the neighbor that she didn't want to talk about it and that this was what prompted her to leave the party. She told me that the question "upset" her and that's why she came home and didn't return. Like a dolt, I said, "Well, we will have to get used to people asking that question." She responded with something like, "Well, I just wanted you to know why I left." And we left it at that. I missed the perfect opportunity to explore and validate her feelings. Shoot.

- I am continuing to GAL and involve myself with D7 and D4 without W's presence. We are doing things more as a threesome, lunches, pool visits, and more. I think I find myself detaching. I no longer feel despair and desperation when W leaves to work on her new place to get it ready for moving. Perhaps this is successful detachment; perhaps I just keep myself busy with reading and being present for our Ds; or perhaps it is a form of denial because she hasn't actually pulled the trigger yet. I guess I will know for sure when she does that.

- Finally, I'm getting lots of texts from W today. Mostly about our Ds, but a few about a shared interest of ours--craft beer and a new one arriving on the scene in our town. I guess this is the friend zone. I let them sit for a bit and then reply as briefly as possible.

That's all for now. Love to all of you.

[WillD78]

Welp, I likely screwed up again last night.

After our Ds were in bed, I again asked W if she has any idea on a date when she is moving out. She asks if I want her to leave now. Then says she doesn't have a day in mind. She tells me that it bothers her that I think this is easy on her. It's not easy. Her eyes well with tears.

I said there are some things we need to talk about before you leave. I think you are putting the cart before the horse in a lot of ways. What are you going to tell the children?

Very little, she said. Keep it brief, tell them it's not they're fault and that they are loved. We'll do it together.

You will do most of the talking, I say. I'm not sure what I can say to them. I don't agree with this and it's going to be hard for me to pretend this is a team decision.

So you're just going to make it look like I'm the one leaving, she asks.

Well that is what is happening, I think to myself, but simply tell her that's why we will have to talk about this. To figure this out. Why am I always the one who has to start these conversations? What about custody?

She figures they'll do two nights at her place, two nights at our MH, two nights at her place, etc. I tell her that's a lot of moving around with little stability. She asks what I have in mind. I don't know, I tell her, but we need to figure it out.

What are you planning on taking from the house?

Very little, she says. I'd like to take the good dishes, she says. Those were wedding gifts, I think we should split them, I tell her. She says OK, and she would like to take the TV stand but she hates the idea of leaving me with nothing there. That's fine, I tell her, you bought it.

Who is going to help you move?

I don't think I need help. I'm not taking much.

What about finances? I will continue to support the kids, but I'm not going to continue paying your bills. I assume you are just blowing through our savings right now.

No, she hasn't touched our savings. She borrowed from her father. She told him she needed money and she couldn't talk about it right now. He doesn't know anything, but he probably has suspicions. She would like to come up with a financial plan until D4 is in school full time in a year and she can begin working full time again. She doesn't like when I make her feel like she is out to rip me off or take our money. She tells me I'm in no way responsible for the finances of her new place.

I tell her I don't think she is out to get me. I mention that school is starting in two weeks and it would be good to break the news to the girls before then. She agrees. Then I tell her I am not trying to rush her; that I still do not agree with this move. Then I ask her if she has any doubt that this is the right thing to do. She simply says no.

So what is taking so long?

I'm just slow. And the girls ...

Then I ask her if she wants to put something on the TV. She says that would be nice.

I managed to keep my emotions and body language in check, but this conversation hurt very much. On the one hand, I do want this process, if it is inevitable, to speed up. I don't want to have her move out as our girls are starting their new school year. It is always a tough adjustment for D7 and this will only compound that. I also know that separation will make LRT and GAL much, much easier and convenient for me. And I want her to begin to feel the consequences of her decision. It's not going to be all sunshine and rainbows, I think.

On the other hand, I see our past and what I thought would be our future together as a couple and as a family flashing before my eyes. I want desperately to cling to any hope that those dreams may not be gone and I want to hold on to them forever. And our girls. Oh, our girls. They are going to be heartbroken. And me ... I'm going to miss out on half of their youth. As a SAHM, she's not going to feel the effects of this, when it comes to our Ds, nearly as much as I am. She will get to see them every day. When I work on my days with the kids, she will watch them. On her days, I'll be stuck with phone calls and FaceTime.

Thank God I have an IC appointment today. I need it.

I know, guys. I'm not detached. But I'm getting there. They pain is less than it used to be and mostly focused on how this will affect our Ds. I'm trying, but feel free to hit me with some 2x4s.

[SteveLW]

You are still taking her at her word. You can't believe anything she says! Nothing.

Then I ask her if she has any doubt that this is the right thing to do. She simply says no.

Not true. I even have doubt when I order food at a restaurant that I made the right decision. Chicken or steak? Hmmm. But she can make a life altering decision without any doubt? AIN'T BUYING IT

She is conflicted. She is trying not to show it. Yes guilt is part of it, that came through in the discussion about telling the kids. Trying to not look like the bad guy. Telling you it isn't easy for her either. Admitting to delaying because of the kids.

Remember, take everything she says with a grain of salt. I really like how you put the ownership of the discussion with the kids on her. Yes you will be there. Yes you will back up that it isn't their fault and that they are loved. But that you aren't going to accept responsibility for something you are against.

I would suggest you avoid these conversations. I would suggest you not say things like "So what is taking so long?". That is dishonest on your part. You don't want it to happen, therefore you don't want it to happen quickly. So why ask her that? Other than to pressure her into making a decision. The fact that she is sitting on this is a good thing. Everyday she doesn't move out is another day closer to her staying permanently. She doesn't have a lot of steam in her sails on this, do don't get behind and start blowing.

Here is the thing. If she leaves coming back will be harder than just staying. So don't encourage it. LBSs think that prodding them will get them to change their mind. It doesn't. Prodding them will make them more determined to do it. Also, you are thinking that discussing this will show her that it isn't "all sunshine and rainbows". She will come to that conclusion without your help. This is why we recommend you do not initiate R talks. No good comes from it.

[uk82]

I love reading Steve85 posts. Always gives me a boost of energy when I’m feeling deflated. Go Steve!

WillD - 4 years, really? Wow that must be so so hard to go for that long with no movement either way. You have incredible patience and stamina. Don’t give up now.

[WillD78]

Steve:

Thank you so much. I don't think you have any idea how much this post meant to me. Your hopeful yet unbiased outsider's perspective really helped a lot. This was a rough morning, but your comments allowed me to focus on my work and realize that, yes, I shouldn't be believing what she says. Her actions do not match her words.

I would suggest you avoid these conversations. I would suggest you not say things like "So what is taking so long?". That is dishonest on your part. You don't want it to happen, therefore you don't want it to happen quickly. So why ask her that? Other than to pressure her into making a decision. The fact that she is sitting on this is a good thing. Everyday she doesn't move out is another day closer to her staying permanently. She doesn't have a lot of steam in her sails on this, do don't get behind and start blowing.

Here is the thing. If she leaves coming back will be harder than just staying. So don't encourage it. LBSs think that prodding them will get them to change their mind. It doesn't. Prodding them will make them more determined to do it. Also, you are thinking that discussing this will show her that it isn't "all sunshine and rainbows". She will come to that conclusion without your help. This is why we recommend you do not initiate R talks. No good comes from it.

You're right. I do not gain anything by initiating these conversations. I tricked myself before starting this conversation that it was not really an R talk, but more of a logistics talk. I am genuinely concerned with the timing of this move and the start of the school year, for our girls' sakes, but I didn't learn anything new with this conversation. I'm still in limbo, just feeling worse about it today than I did yesterday. I still don't know when this will happen. No more.

I talked to my IC about this today, too, and he agrees that I shouldn't bring it up anymore, which is a change of thought for him. He's usually telling me question after question after question to ask her. No more.

Anyway, thanks for making today less crappy.

uk82: Agree. Steve kills it. And no, I haven't been at this for four years. Perhaps you have confused me with someone else, or I gave you the wrong impression. I'm coming up on one year since BD in a couple of weeks, though, it does seem like longer. Thanks for chiming in. I'll go read your sitch in moment.

[WillD78]

So it's been two weeks and guess what ... Nothing has changed. W continues to spend a few hours a week preparing her new place for occupancy. I have just been doing my thing. Hanging with my Ds when I can, acting like a friendly stranger around the house, when I can. Other times I have to put up the happy family facade or work together with W on parenting, etc.

W left her computer open today and I stupidly took a peek at it. She's ordering furniture and curtains and pots and pans for her new life. It killed me. So much for detachment. I mean, I don't feel as terrible as I did on BD one year ago, but it definitely sank my heart. I know she is doing these things, but something about seeing the evidence on the computer screen just makes me hurt. I think it's clear that I'm living more in denial than in detachment. But it just makes me so sad to think that she's sitting there shopping online for curtains for her 2BR while our Ds play beside her, clueless about how their world is going to be rocked when W finally decides to pull the pin on the grenade.

I know, I know. I shouldn't have snooped. I'll do better.

As much as it pains me to think about losing my wife and missing out on half of my children's life, part of me wishes she would just hurry up and move out, as it will make moving on so much easier for me.

I'm so confused by her. She says she is leaving. She's sure it's the right thing to do. Signed a lease. Furnishing the apartment. But she still hasn't initiated the conversation about what we are going to tell the kids. She doesn't have a timeframe in mind for moving. Is she just doing the fun stuff, like buying furniture, but avoiding the things that she doesn't want to face, like telling the kids and exposing her deceitful ways to all of our friends and family? Will that keep her from following through with this when the time comes? There are no answers, I know.

Honestly, I have been good the past two weeks. Not R talks, just doing my thing. But peeking at that computer has really got me depressed. I know you'll ask, so I am GALing. My family is coming over tonight. We'll pretend to be a happy family in front of them. Tomorrow I'm doing happy hour with some coworkers and Friday I'm taking off to take the Ds to waterpark/amusement park. Just here venting.

Our wedding anniversary is Sunday. My plan is not to even acknowledge it. I may try to play some golf in the morning and then we're going to a friend's house for a cookout. Just another day, as far as I am concerned. Let me know if you disagree with this approach.

I haven't chimed in much lately, but I"m reading the board a lot. Prayers and love to all of you who are going through similar and worse sitches.

[SteveLW]

Will, thanks for the update. Reminds me a lot of my W. Did she actually order the items or did she just look at them online. You made it sound like she ordered them.

But yes WASs try to avoid the pain of their decision, but it will eventually come crashing down on her. Maybe she will never really pull the trigger due to not wanting to face the music. I think that was a lot of the reason my W finally came around. She saw the path of least resistance was to stay rather than go. Even signing a lease is easier than the actual moving and telling people she has moved. So don't be surprised if she breaks the lease and stays. Then again, don't be surprised if she furnishes it and moves in. Anything is possible.

Keep the focus on you. Even what you found snooping, in comparison, isn't all that bad. Think about it. the posters that are snooping and finding out about EAs and PAs. When I snooped back in January and found nude photos she had sent to OM, I would have traded that for her furniture shopping for a new apartment in a heart beat!! Now I know that doesn't make you feel any better, but the point is that it could always be worse. Think of all of these things as steps in the process. Even if she follows through, how you handle it will be huge in your sitch's future.

[WillD78]

Thanks, as always, Steve. Your perspective is priceless and invigorating.

Yes, W is making purchases. At the very least, I know she has purchased two end tables and had other items from Wayfair delivered to her new place. And with her nearly daily trips to home decor stores, I'm suspect there are other items, too.

I had a bit of a moment of weakness last night, and it involves the above-mentioned end tables. W found them for sale on Craigslist over the weekend for $20. They're vintage 1950s tables. When she returned home with them she told me that she spoke to some antique expert and he told he could sell them in his shop for $300. I asked her if she was going to sell them. She said no. And that was that.

Fast forward to last night and she showed me this picture on her Facebook feed of these two end tables that are for sale at another vintage store. "These are just like the ones I bought," she tells me. "Look at how good they look with you clean them up."

I didn't know what to say. What kind of a person does this -- rubs it in my face that she is leaving by showing me the awesome stuff she is buying for her new life?

After a moment I said, "What makes you think I want to hear about the furniture you are buying for your new place?"

W: I'm sorry. You're right. That's not fair.

Me: No, it's not that it's not fair. I just seriously want to know why you think I would want to hear about that."

W: I'm sorry. You're right.

Me (and here's where it goes downhill): I mean, I like talking with you about that stuff. I miss those conversations. I miss talking with you about those things.

(Pause)

Me: I miss you.

W: I know.

Me: I hope you will miss me someday, too.

And ... scene!

I know, not my best work. However, I think I managed to show very little, if any, emotion and honestly, I wasn't feeling too much, either. W also showed no emotion and wouldn't even look at me after my initial question.

My family arrived shortly after that and we had a nice pretend family dinner with them. W was pretty short with me and the Ds later that night after the family left, but otherwise it was a "normal" evening.