Can I really do this #5

[sandi2]

An uneventful weekend until Sunday afternoon. D wanted to go do something social and asked for money. I informed her, what I had before, that if she needed spending money, she should see her Mother as my D had told me specifically that she "hates" me, doesn't even like me and doesn't want a relationship with me. I told my D that I love her, will always be here for her, but she must respect me in our home. Also informed her that I would make sure she had all the essentials, food, water, roof, clothes, etc. but that I would not be funding anything else.

Well, this is JMHO. I think this particular action encourages your D to team up with her mother against you. Plus, I think it might bring forth more bitterness without teaching her to respect you. I know how hard this stuff can be, and trust me, I made so many mistakes.

I tried a couple of things that worked fairly well. One was that my kids had an allowance of money each week. They also had chores. I am huge believer in kids having a chores, as a way of teaching them responsibility and pride. If they didn't do their chores, they didn't get the allowance. If they wanted to buy something, they had to save up their allowance. (Occasionally, there would be an exception, but not often.)

The other thing I used was something like a merit/demerit system. I didn't stick to this too long, and I can't remember why, other than it probably didn't suit my particular personality.

When it comes to training children to show respect, I think it has to be right at the moment. Kids must know what the parent expects from them. So, tell them in advance. Let her know you will not tolerate tantrums, or verbal disrespect and if she gets mad at you and proceeds to throw a fit, you call her out right then. Have a set discipline in mind for these type of issues, b/c they are going to happen. So, whenever it happens, you will call her out and if she doesn't humbly apologize or if an apology isn't sufficient, you tell her she is grounded, or whatever her discipline may be. I think that's more beneficial than waiting to discipline them later when they are wanting to go somewhere, etc.

One thing I have seen parents do that I don't agree is when a kid has been planning something really important for a while (like a trip to Disney World), and the day or two before the event, the kid messes up......so as punishment, the parent won't let the kid go to the event. When this child has been planning for weeks/months and so excited about it and the parent just kills the whole thing...…..I believe it causes a bitterness in the spirit of that child. Maybe that's just me, and there are always exceptions...….you know, if the crime was bad enough.

With your D14,I think it's best not to refer her to the mom. B/c I don't think mom is going to back you, and it will just cause more division in the family. I'm trying to remember when D14 was ugly to you...…..is that when she was grounded? Did she ever apologize?

As a note to you, JS, I realize what she said hurt you. However, you are the adult man here, and you can't take to heart what a 14 year old girl says in a fit of anger. Most teenage girls are melodramatic when they are upset......or anytime else, really. I'm not excusing her! She should have been disciplined for her behavior. But what you said to her......….I'm afraid, just perpetuates the feelings in her. At some point soon, I think having a heart to heart about some of these issues with her, might help...…...given at the right time. Maybe next weekend you could take her for a ride, just the two of you (no mom) and have a father to daughter talk. She knows just enough about what is going on between her parents to be scared. She's acting out. She's disrespectful. Have the talk. Be open, honest, and loving.

I use to read parenting books by Dr. James Dobson. I thought they were excellent, especially the ones about teenagers.

((hugs))

[Dtrmned]

Thanks Sandi as always for your input, advice and guidance.

Thinking on this, I believe I am right in my stance, but I do need to find a way to get my D back engaged. I am leaning more on the allowance side, with a twist. Maybe giving her the opportunity for her to work for me 4-5 hours per week. She would come to the office once or twice a week in the afternoons. Work on some social media stuff for my company, and I'd pay her. It would give her the opportunity to put her skills to work and improve them, earn some money, and give her a chance to see her father outside of the home situation interacting with other adults in the world. It will also give her some perspective on the working world and some great self-esteem building as she would be earning her money as opposed to the entitled attitude she believes presently.

I see the alignment between D & W against me and I have been struggling with this. I know my W will exploit this as much as she can to justify her own selfishness. I also will not put my D in between us and use her as a pawn in any way. If I can show my D a little about life, help her with responsibility, I think the respect part will come when she sees how hard I work, how things actually work in the world, and hopefully doing some work together will bring us closer.

[sandi2]

Thinking on this, I believe I am right in my stance, but I do need to find a way to get my D back engaged. I am leaning more on the allowance side, with a twist. Maybe giving her the opportunity for her to work for me 4-5 hours per week. She would come to the office once or twice a week in the afternoons. Work on some social media stuff for my company, and I'd pay her. It would give her the opportunity to put her skills to work and improve them, earn some money, and give her a chance to see her father outside of the home situation interacting with other adults in the world. It will also give her some perspective on the working world and some great self-esteem building as she would be earning her money as opposed to the entitled attitude she believes presently.

That sounds like an excellent idea!

[AnotherStander]

I have ordered NMMNG and will begin reading when it arrives.

Good, because....

QUESTION: I don't want to be a Mr. NG any longer. What are the best steps to accomplish this knowing that this is going to enrage my W?

I think maybe you misunderstand NGS. The book isn't about how nice guys are too nice and therefore doormats and need to fix that, the book is about how the whole "nice guy" thing is really a cover for controlling and manipulation. Nice guys are also quite passive/aggressive. On the surface they appear to be nice and friendly, but in a long term relationship their controlling tactics slowly wear their partner down until it gets to the point where the partner just can't take it any more. A LOT of the men ending up here are full blown nice guys (I was one). The book is a revelation for many of us because we don't know we are controlling and manipulating and passive/aggressive. But once you read it you recognize it in yourself, you can do something about it. If you correct NGS then your W will not be enraged, she will be pleased. I'm not saying it will save your M but her reaction will definitely not be a negative one.

I'm not saying all nice guys have NGS, the nice guys as described in the book may or may not be you or other "nice" guys you know. But I think just about everyone can learn something from the book, even if someone doesn't have full blown NGS they can probably still recognize unhealthy personal patterns in reading it.

My W doesn't want to be married to me. Why is she still there? This is showing my D that she should remain in a bad relationship that she doesn't want to be in, for MONTHS, even years, sleep in the same bed, interact socially occasionally, have family dinners, etc.

What is this showing my D about life, relationships, self-esteem, dignity, respect, responsibility, etc?

This is very disturbing to me and I am very concerned.

Not sure what you find "disturbing" about her staying, do you think it would be better for your D if your W left?

Again, my issues are that I don't know how to do this and picking the best path. I know there is only a 50/50 at best shot of getting this to work. Knowing that, there are going to be many, many paths to choose along the way, and they will change. I need to learn how to recognize which is correct for the long term, and not just which one is good to "keep the peace" for now.

Just understand that it took your W years to become a WAW and no one thing you do now is going to matter. The aggregate of all that you do does matter over the long haul, but no one thing is going to make or break things. So don't sweat daily decisions. You'll make some good ones and some bad ones, just learn from the bad ones and keep moving forward.

QUESTION: If Limbo is a gift, how is pushing it a different way going to help better?

I think "limbo" is absolutely the wrong word for any LBS to use. If you are in limbo then you completely misunderstand DB'ing. The whole point of DB'ing is to NOT be in limbo. Does getting out, getting a life, becoming strong and indepedendent, being a great father to your kids sound like being stuck in limbo? Limbo isn't a "gift", it's a curse. It'll slowly kill you. Standing for your M doesn't mean camping out in limbo, it just means branching off into a new independent life in all ways EXCEPT pursuing a new mate.

[Dtrmned]

Thanks AS.

I read a little about the NMMNG book and realize it is not me becoming a jerk and more about looking inward on my world view. The few things that I have seen, I recognize a lot of the traits (good and bad) already in myself. Very much looking forward to diving into it and hopefully having some enlightenment.

I guess my comment on your "limbo" issue is that I have been told on this board several times that limbo is the gift of time. It allows you the time GAL, 180's, detach, etc. and if you are still in the same home, it hopefully gives your spouse a chance to see the changes sooner that if you are physically separated and only seeing each other once a week for a few moments or even further apart if there are no children. I am standing up for my MR.

I agree that it took my W years to get to this point. She did not make this decision lightly, nor would she ever (if ever) refocus on our MR quickly. I am working more on detaching and moving on. NOT focusing on the daily things, and what she is doing or not doing. I'm focused on my children and our future. I am determined to do my best everyday. I feel stronger each day as well. I also know that whatever happens, I will be ok and I will be there for my children. This is HUGE for me as I put a lot of value in our family and our MR.

[AnotherStander]

I guess my comment on your "limbo" issue is that I have been told on this board several times that limbo is the gift of time. It allows you the time GAL, 180's, detach, etc. and if you are still in the same home, it hopefully gives your spouse a chance to see the changes sooner that if you are physically separated and only seeing each other once a week for a few moments or even further apart if there are no children. I am standing up for my MR.

You are absolutely right, the word does get used here a lot in that context. I personally don't like that particular word as it applies to these situations though, because the word "limbo" is defined as "an uncertain period of awaiting a decision or resolution" or "a place or state of restraint or confinement" and as such is in contrast to what DB'ing is. DB'ing isn't about confining yourself, it's about setting yourself (and your spouse) free and if you can do that, then recon may become an option. I'm not trying to split hairs, just trying to explain my opinion that it is perhaps not the best word choice when it comes to DB'ing.

I agree that it took my W years to get to this point. She did not make this decision lightly, nor would she ever (if ever) refocus on our MR quickly. I am working more on detaching and moving on. NOT focusing on the daily things, and what she is doing or not doing. I'm focused on my children and our future. I am determined to do my best everyday. I feel stronger each day as well. I also know that whatever happens, I will be ok and I will be there for my children. This is HUGE for me as I put a lot of value in our family and our MR.

PERFECTLY stated, that's exactly what DB'ing is!

[Dtrmned]

Nothing eventful last evening.
I got home from work a little later than usual.

W had made a nice dinner for us, so that was nice. Being I had to work a little later than usual, made the evening a little different. W is way cold and distant. My view at this point is "whatever" . Nice, but quiet dinner. A couple of tv shows, then bed.

W is still struggling. Healhwise, painwise, uncomfortable, etc. I have no idea.

She got up at 330am this morning.

I've reached out to an L to draw up paperwork for the D is it would go through. We don't want to "use" lawyers, and I will express her viewpoints during the Lawyer's questions on my side. I like to get this one, propose to her and see what she thinks. Easier to file jointly, no lawyers, if everying has its I's dotted and t's crossed.

[SteveLW]

OK, I just thought of something. Have you ever seen the movie "Let Me In"?

Its about a vampire (they don't age so she is perpetually a little girl (though there are hints in the movie that she might have once been male)). She "attaches" an enabler who goes out and murders victims to feed her with their blood. I think they are a guardian or something. Once they grow up and get old, she moves on to a younger guardian.

That sounds like your STBXW. Using someone until they no longer suit her purposes. As you've said, OM's day is coming..........

[Dtrmned]

Hey Steve,
Thanks. I will look up the movie when I get a chance.
I don't know what the last sentence means, I know you follow and post on a lot of sitch's, but I am still fairly certain that my W is not in a PA. There may be an EA, but the fact that she never leaves the house, rarely puts on makeup or nice clothes, never goes out at night, etc. Leads me to believe that. I have given up snooping, but do check our vehicles for maintenance, etc. and she has only put 500 miles on the vehicle since Memorial Day. Basically, grocery runs, pharmacy runs, and just general running the kids around.

JMHO on that. I believe by reading the other sitch's on here, that I would have some impression if she was seeing someone. When a woman gets herself together for a rendezvous, it takes a little time, i.e. hair, nails, makeup etc. My wife's average time to get ready for us to just go to dinner when this would happen was about an hourish. It also takes some time for them to wipe off the war paint afterwards. Generally, she is wearing the same, or just very comfortable inside clothes when I get home from work. With her medical and energy levels, I think this would be fairly difficult for her to pull off. And, she would have to leave the kids at home alone. They are old enough, but I don't believe she would do that.

[SteveLW]

JS. Sorry. That last post should have been to OK in his thread. My bad.