Hey, all. I've been lurking for a while now, just reading as much as I can. I don't have a super firm grasp on the abbreviations, so please forgive me if I type something out fully or ask you for an explanation. Also, this will be a very long read, so my apologies in advance.
I posted the following elsewhere online 27 days ago. It explains most of where we are, though some changes have happened since then, which I'll detail in a post to follow shortly:
I'm unsure what, if anything, I can do to save my marriage, and I feel like I'm dying inside.
For background, we were childhood sweethearts in middle and high school. We were on again, off again until either Junior or Senior year, and both of us dated many people in the years after. She was previously married and divorced (year long marriage), and with other people after that before we connected again. We always admitted freely that everyone we were with was always compared to each other as a standard of measure.
We've been married for twelve years, together for an additional year before that as adults. We have a 10-year-old son who is the most awesome kid on the planet. He really does encompass the best qualities of both of us.
Career-wise, my wife has always made significantly more money than me. She deserves to because she's a badass, and is fantastic at everything she's ever done. That is not to say that I'm not a hard-working husband. I've only been unemployed once during our marriage for about a week after getting laid off during the great recession in 2009. I'm not beneath doing whatever I have to in order to support my family as best I can. That said, she's always made 50% more to double what I've made. It's never really been an issue except in recent times, but not quite what you might be thinking (I'll explain momentarily). Also, earlier this year, after working a full-time job and running a side business for two years, I was able to take my side business full-time (something I feel plays into this situation quite a bit).
A little over a month ago, she had a conversation with me and dropped the "I love you, but don't know if I'm in love with you anymore" bomb. I knew we had our problems, and assumed they were like any other marriage... Something that needed to be fixed, but not realizing how deeply this was affecting her and hurting her. After this conversation, my ears were perked up, and I knew that it was more serious than I thought (I just didn't realize how much more serious).
About a week and a half after that conversation, we had an incident that involved her being gone overnight for a work thing, an argument, and her refusing to call or answer my calls. During this, I tried to convey (though unsuccessfully) that I wasn't accusing her of cheating, but that I was so scared because I realized things had gotten bad enough to put her in a position where she would consider doing so. We've always sworn that we would just call off the marriage before cheating because we both hate infidelity so much. I don't believe she has, though I can't say with 100% certainty that someone hasn't caught her interest. Either way, this was received as an accusation, hence the ignoring of calls and texts.
The next morning, we talked. It was a sobering conversation to say the least. She flat out said that she doesn't know if she wants to get divorced or not, doesn't know if she can work things out, and doesn't know that even if I changed if she'd want me.
I tore myself apart. I realized how complacent I'd become in our marriage and with myself, and how I'd taken her for granted. I also realized that the flaws of my own that I've wanted to change for so long had been thrown to the wayside because I was focused on starting my business and feeding myself excuses.
She tried multiple times over the years to express what was happening, and I either didn't hear her the way she needed me to, or passed it off as her just being upset in the moment. I'd change for a bit to smooth things over, and then go back to the same behavior. That behavior consisted of not helping around the house as much as she did, not worrying about our finances as much (the finances I alluded to earlier aren't necessarily in dire straights, but she feels like we waste so much money and she's busting her ass to earn the lions share only to see it wasted), not showing my love and appreciation for her as often or in the way she needed (I've since discovered her primary love language is acts of service). I neglected my duties as a husband, to put it bluntly. I think this is largely because my focus has been on my business the last two years, though things started going south before then, and I feed myself excuses for that, too.
These last three weeks have been a rollercoaster, going from she's considering divorce, to she had a plan for divorce and this is happening in the timeline earlier than that plan, to talks of our future together if we moved, to saying she loves me and buying me unexpected and random gifts. We've had sex three times since that first week, the first being awkward for both of us, the other two being some of, if not the best of our marriage (all initiated by her, as I would never pressure her that way). She has acknowledged changes in me and my behavior, as well as saying she's appreciated it, even if she's confused how I could do a 180 that fast. She also has said that she definitely believes I'm truly hearing her for the first time in several years. She's said she doesn't doubt my sincerity or commitment to change and to making our marriage what it needs to be, and to making her happy.
The problem is she doesn't know what she wants. Not just with me, but with life. There only thing she's said is non-negotiable is motherhood to our son. She's gotten in fantastic shape since early this year, started a new job where she finally feels empowered and respected, and has really started grabbing life by the horns. But then, she also feels like a slave having to work such long and brutal hours, paying for things and living a lifestyle that's complex and more expensive than it has to be. She's craving adventure and new experiences, even though the structure of her job is rewarding. When I ask her what she's trying to figure out, besides obviously us, she can't say. I've asked if it's where we live, how we live, her job, is there someone else she's interested in, etc., she just says she doesn't know.
I'm trying to find hope in the fact that she's still affectionate sometimes as far as kissing or snuggling in bed or on the couch while we watch a show. Also in how she will ask about long term plans and dreams, and how she bought me gifts randomly and unexpectedly since all this started. I've been speaking her primary love language as much as humanly possible, and trying to speak the others, too, in order to maximize her feeling loved and secure. I've also been working on myself. Getting in shape, taking more responsibility, being decisive (something I've been ordinarily terrible at), being more financially aware and responsible, not being angry or bitter (though I've had my moments of being sad and mopey), etc.
I understand that I have a lot of trust to rebuild at the very least, and a lot of resentment to overcome and soothe. I know this won't be a short process. But, it all depends on her choice... I can't do any of that if she chooses life without me. She's questioning all the changes in me, as well as asking how it is I could finally get it in such a short period of time. My response has been that, in my opinion, and that of many great minds, men tend to communicate and understand action more than words. The action that occurred in the first conversation, and then the real eye opener of the ignored calls, etc. that night three weeks ago, finally gave me the perspective I needed to hear her fully and truly. I've been experiencing a level of empathy I haven't had in a long, long time, and all I want to do now is be the best man I can be for her, and throw my arms around her and heal the wounds I've caused her.
I've read so many pieces of advice saying to focus on me, and to get a life and start being independent in my activities so that she has space and so that she sees me living life to its fullest. I'm trying, but when she's working 70+ hours a week, and we have a 10-year-old son to take care of, I haven't figured out how to do that yet. The only thing I have been able to do is go walk or run around our neighborhood. I've asked about counseling, which she says she's not sure she's in a position to do right now, and I'm not sure it would help if she doesn't know what she wants. I've tried to give space as much as I can, and I've admittedly had a few breakdowns and led us into conversations about everything multiple times (though to be fair, I think we both feel like we've had some really good and honest communication during these talks). She's mentioned a trial separation as an idea, but not asked for it explicitly, more in passing during one of our conversations. I've read conflicting points of view on them and can see the merit to each, but deep down I feel she can't see any changes I make if we're apart, and feel like all it would do is push her further away. I feel like she's romanticizing the notion of being alone, even though she truly does know that it would be hard and would hurt us both to do so.
I also believe her best friend is pushing my wife towards divorce. She's unhappy in her own marriage and wouldn't leave her husband for religious reasons. I feel like she may be trying to live vicariously through my wife. I have no evidence to support this, just a gut feeling. I'm also concerned that my wife is really protective of her phone, though I believe it to be worry about me reading the conversations with her friend (even though I don't snoop and have always respected her right to privacy).
I'm at a complete loss, and just don't know what to do, if there's even anything I can do. I don't know how I could ever believe in love again or know what love is if we divorce, because the standard by which I measured everyone else I've ever been with will have rejected me, even after acknowledging her lack of doubt in my commitment and feelings for her. The world would be colorless for me. Without her, the rest would be inconsequential. She's my heart, my soul, my drive, my motivation, my happiness, my everything.
I know this was a long post, and I guess it's a combo of journaling and trying to gain perspective from unbiased outside parties to our situation. Am I doing all I can? Should I keep hope? Am I misreading the signs that love is still there, just buried deep under resentment, hurt and anger? This just hurts so much, and is worse than grieving the death of a loved one.
I know lots of you think she is or did cheat. The night in question, she had a work dinner with the upper management of her company (she's part of the management team). She had made plans to stay at her grandmother's house that night since she knew it would be late and she commutes an hour or more to work every day. I was there when she asked her grandmother about staying there that night. When I finally got in touch with her that night, I could tell she was in a bathroom because of the echo, and she proceeded to tell me she was going to stay in a hotel instead of driving to her grandmother's house because she had consumed several drinks at dinner. She wasn't drunk (if she had been, I'd have known because she doesn't have a high tolerance for alcohol), but she didn't feel like driving would be the responsible thing. My fear got the best of me because I was aware that we had a major problem, and all of a sudden at 11:00 at night, I'm being told she's changing the plan, had been drinking, and was staying on a hotel. I tried to convey my fear that all of those things could mean she was in a place to consider it, not that she was actually doing it. This of course came out all wrong on my end, and upset her because she felt like I was accusing her. She told me the next morning that she was just done with dealing with all of this that night, and just wanted sleep (I finally got a text from her at 12:30 saying she was tired and didn't want to deal with it that night and we'd talk in the morning). Even if she did cheat, I can either accept it and forgive her and move on if I want to stay married to her, or I can't. I love my wife so dearly that I'm in the forgiveness camp, though I still don't think she did or is cheating.
You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts (for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support). Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active, and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down. Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come! Most important - POST!
Get out and Get a Life (GAL). DETACH.
Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
So, I haven't been able to read DR yet. Basically, between being almost dead broke and W seeing any and all purchases, I haven't been able to buy a copy. My local library doesn't have it, either.
So far it's been a complete rollercoaster. Over minute, she's talking about future plans with me and the next she's asking for space, and telling me she doesn't know if she wants to be with me. We've been intimate several times, about 4 over the last month and a half... That's actually a little bit of an improvement in our sex life compared to the last several years.
She's still constantly hiding her phones (one personal, one work), and is very distant. She's showing so many signs of being a WW/EA/PA or going through MLC that I don't know what strategy is best. It's entirely possible that maybe she cheated where she normally wouldn't have, and now is so racked with guilt after seeing my response to everything, that it's causing her to waver back and forth about staying. I don't think she wants to hurt me, and admitting to that would definitely do so, which means she either rips the band-aid off and hurts me, loves with the secret and guilt for the rest of our lives, or just leaves.
I'm trying my hardest to GAL, but with no money, there's not a lot I can do. I have started playing guitar again, but can only do so in limited bursts due to an injury to my left ring finger a few years ago.
As for things she listed wrong with me and our marriage, I've done a complete 180 on all of it. Validating, contributing to household responsibilities (she's done virtually nothing around the house in the last month and a half, save for one load of laundry and cooked three times, two of which I did half of). I've also sold my woodworking told and gun collection, which has put us within $500 of paying off all of our credit card debt (another thing she was extremely upset about). I've taken more of an active role in our finances, though she's still handling the majority there because she knows the budget software, whereas I haven't really used it other than to record transactions. She also has all the login info for everything, where I do not.
I've begun reading more. I've also dropped 37 pounds, partially because if stress and partially because I changed my diet and have been working out again. I haven't been this light since we were married. None of my clothes fit me anymore... My pants and shorts look like I'm trying to be a rapper, sagging down below my butt.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka that I totally agree with.
Originally Posted by Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
crouton, you mention your son's age, but not your and her ages. How long you've been together, how long married. All of that is good background for your sitch that will help those of us offering support, encouragement, and advice.
First of all, you are in denial about her cheating. All of the red flags are there. Not going to her grandmother's that night. Going silent on you (if she was concerned about you worrying about her cheating she wouldn't have done that). Her privacy with her phone and online activities. My guess is it was an EA with someone at work, that turned into a PA that night.
Her roller-coasting is common to a lot of sitches. In fact, your W's behavior is very similar to my W's behavior early on in our sitch. They roller-coaster for one reason. Their plan A (the new person) has solidified. Maybe the OM is married, or attached, or deep down they know OM is only involved to get some action. But the reason she roller-coasters back to you is because she wants to make sure Plan B is still solidly there as a safety net. We have a saying around here, a monkey doesn't jump from their current branch until they have identified a solid branch to leap to. Your wife isn't ready to jump off her current branch until she has a solid branch to leap to.
Detachment (also see self-differentiation in relationships) is the key here. No matter what, you can't be so emotionally attached that it is unhealthy for you, and smothers her. So often when we get bombed, we LBHs do the wrong 180s. Our WAWs just told us that they wanted out, or were considering it, and then we smother them and push them away. Think about it, she's essentially told you that she wants time and space, and our instinct is to spend as much time with them as we can! Likely, her working 70 hours a week is because she feels smothered once she is home. So detach, give her the time and space she needs.
GAL is a big key to this. I like the walking and running. And the guitar playing. I am not too sure about the selling of tools and guns though. To me that was you trying too hard to please her. And that is pursuit and pressure. NOTE, pursuit and pressure will not work. You are not dealing with a new woman that has no history with you. That is when pursuit and pressure works. Your W will be pushed away by those actions. GAL helps with this. It doesn't have to be expensive. But find things to stay busy with. Reconnect with old friends and just hang out. Take up new hobbies or interests. The more you are doing to stay busy the less your mind will race and the less you will try to apply pursuit and pressure on her.
180s. In the right way. Every time you think there is something you need to change ask yourself your motivation. If it is simply to impress her, she will know that. And it will come across as pursuit and pressure. If it is to better yourself, then go for it! Do things around the house, but do not advertise it! Do things when she isn't home. She'll either notice or she won't but don't do it because she'll notice. 180s are for self improvement. Sometimes your W notices this self improvement, but again, impressing her isn't the goal. The goal is to be the best that you can be.
And be careful blaming your W's waywardness on her friend. Lots of LBSs do this. "If only I could get her away from so-and-so." First, this is trying to control what you cannot. Second, it is probably misplaced blame. We LBHs like to think our WW is still the girl we married. She isn't. Read sandi's rules. Learn them, study them, live them. She is not the girl you married. Don't be in denial on that. Further, her friend has less to do with this than you think. You say your friend is unhappy but won't leave her husband for religious reasons. Likely she doesn't think your W should live you for those same religious reasons!! I've yet to meet someone so deeply religious (and I am deeply religious myself) that they wouldn't break up their marriage that goes around telling others to break up theirs! So forget the friend. This is between you and your W.
Finally, believe nothing she says and only half of what she does. I know you don't like to here the advice "concentrate on you", but crouton think about it. YOU are all you have control over. She is either going to stay or go. YOU have to be okay with either decision. YOU being ok is in your control. HER leaving or staying is not.
And don't be fooled into thinking she just wants to be alone. One of the things I said ad nausem on this forum is that a WW doesn't need to live alone to figure things out. Or to find herself. Or to work on the MR. The only reason a WW moves out on her own is to sleep with other people.
Finally, get DB/DR and read it. Read all of cadet's links. DBing doesn't guarantee your M will be saved, but it gives you the best chance. What is a guarantee is that if you pursue and pressure her then she will leave. So do the opposite of those things.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I'd add that you seem to want to take all the blame for this marital breakdown. It's not all your fault. You want it to be so that you can fix it and make the world better.
You can't fix her.
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
I'd add that you seem to want to take all the blame for this marital breakdown. It's not all your fault. You want it to be so that you can fix it and make the world better.
You can't fix her.
THIS^^^^^^
I just responded to I believe ballast' sitch about how we LBHs in particular like to take all the responsibility because of the feeling of control we think that gives us. overrnbw is dead on here........it isn't all your fault and you can't fix it. All you can do is GAL, 180 (in the right ways), DETACH, and be the best you that you can be. She'll either come around or she won't.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Sorry you're here, man. I know how you feel. I'm new to this DBing stuff, too, but one thing that has helped me is doing some nice things for myself. This can be difficult when money is an issue, but it sounds like the jogging and walking are good first steps. I think you should relish the weight loss, as long as you're not overdoing it. I wish I could get to the point where my clothes don't fit! Feel good about this new you as much as you can.
Originally Posted by crouton
I've asked about counseling, which she says she's not sure she's in a position to do right now, and I'm not sure it would help if she doesn't know what she wants.
I pressured my W into MC and it didn't do any good. I was still too sad and angry to make a go of it, and her heart wasn't in it. I've never been a therapy guy, whatever that is, but I have been seeing therapist myself, and it does a lot of good for me. If you can swing it and find a good one, I highly recommend it. It's great to have a professional validate your feelings and help you work through these emotions.
Me: 40 W:39 T: 19 M: 12 D4, D7 EA/BD: August 2017 EA ended: Oct 2017 MC: Oct 2017 - March 2018 W signed lease: July 10, 2018 W moved out: Sept. 14, 2018
She's still constantly hiding her phones (one personal, one work), and is very distant. She's showing so many signs of being a WW/EA/PA or going through MLC that I don't know what strategy is best. It's entirely possible that maybe she cheated where she normally wouldn't have, and now is so racked with guilt after seeing my response to everything, that it's causing her to waver back and forth about staying. I don't think she wants to hurt me, and admitting to that would definitely do so, which means she either rips the band-aid off and hurts me, loves with the secret and guilt for the rest of our lives, or just leaves.
Id recommend you stop mind reading, and start reading DR as soon as you can. THAT is the strategy.
Originally Posted by crouton
As for things she listed wrong with me and our marriage, I've done a complete 180 on all of it. Validating, contributing to household responsibilities (she's done virtually nothing around the house in the last month and a half, save for one load of laundry and cooked three times, two of which I did half of).
Have you done any SELF-reflection? You cant and shouldnt just change into what she wants of you. It wont work and it wont last. How do YOU want to be? How many of her complaints are valid? How many other things would you change about yourself?
Originally Posted by crouton
I've also sold my woodworking told and gun collection, which has put us within $500 of paying off all of our credit card debt (another thing she was extremely upset about). I've taken more of an active role in our finances, though she's still handling the majority there because she knows the budget software, whereas I haven't really used it other than to record transactions. She also has all the login info for everything, where I do not.
I feel like something doesnt add up. Shes a high powered executive and yet you still had to sell all of your things and theres a lot of worry over $500? How can you be on such a tight budget where you cant even buy a book?
Ultimately, I think it comes down to respect. Right now, you are kissing up to her at every turn. You are doing everything you can to try to make her happy. But how is that a strong partner? How is that someone she respects as an equal and trusts as a father and husband? Turning into SUPER H is not a way to earn her respect. She will be pleased to not have to do any household work but it doesnt increase her attraction for you.
How about instead, you focus on planning for you. Get your business/finances in order. Get the freaking login information and man up to being an equal team member. Figure out a budget for your family to get back on track. Make meal plans and execute them together. Women dont want a SERVANT - they want a PARTNER.
I feel like something doesnt add up. Shes a high powered executive and yet you still had to sell all of your things and theres a lot of worry over $500? How can you be on such a tight budget where you cant even buy a book?
I had this same thought when I read couton's comment on this. Likely she is using her 2/3rds of the income position to nitpick him about finances. A typical WAS move. Find as much fault with the LBS as possible. And as you said, he is overreacting trying to "fix" every one of her complaints.
crouton, right now you could turn into the perfect husband, but the time for that has come and gone. Time to GAL, 180, detach......concentrate on YOU not on her. You can't nice her back.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
A friend who knows my sitch loaned me the money to by DR, and I just got back from the bookstore, so I'll be reading today.
Sorry about the lack of background... I'm 35, she's 36, we've been married 13 years, together as adults for almost 14 years, and dated all through middle and high school (on again, off again), and even some after high school. We dated lots of other people after school, and she was even married for a year (she divorced him, for many of the same reasons she is now saying to me). We have always compared everyone we've ever been with to each other as a standard of measure, and found them lacking, which is why we were both so happy to have reconnected and fallen back in love when we got back together as adults (or so we've always said). There's no question in my mind that she is my soulmate, and until recently, she said there was no doubt in hers (this changing, however, could be what John Gottman calls "Negative Sentiment Override").
As for the cheating/not cheating, I totally see why it could be interpreted as such, and it would also explain a lot. That said, I'm fairly confident the reason she's so protective over her phones is that she knows I saw a text to her friend (yes, that friend I mentioned in the OP) early on in all of this. The alarm on her phone was going off, and I went to silence it (she was in our basement, I was in our bedroom). When I unlocked the phone to silence the alarm, I saw a text that read "He's doing everything right, but it just feels so wrong!" with a few crying face emojis after it. Then the next line said "I just feel smothered!!". I believe she only knew I saw it because I probably didn't put her phone back in the right spot in her purse. A different friend did confirm that she expressed to him and his girlfriend that she felt I was snooping, which is why she locked her phones down. This was all within the first week of everything happening.
Further, if she did cheat, I believe it would have been because I drove her to that point, and that it was a one time thing. It's entirely possible that, if it happened, she realizes she made a mistake, and is feeling guilty for doing so, which is why shes wavering on staying or going. She could be looking at it like she has 3 choices: tell me and hurt me (which I truly believe she doesn't want to do... she has one of the biggest hearts on the planet), not tell me and us stay together with her wrestling the guilt forever, or just leave in order to not face hurting me or the guilt. I've also had several friends tell me that after talking to her, they don't believe she did. That could all be hot air, or her lying to them, but I don't yet have any concrete reason to believe otherwise, just several possible red flags.
I'm still trying to figure out a way to GAL. My options are unfortunately rather limited, but I'm working on it.
This morning, we had a blow up. Essentially, the last 2 nights have been good, or so I thought (we even slept together night before last, which is kinda big considering she has wanted very little physical contact through all of this besides a good hug here or there when we've had a good day, or snuggling at night). She's been okay snuggling in bed most nights, with me spooning her. On some occasions, she will snuggle up to me, laying on my chest. We had about 10 minutes before we were supposed to get up, and I asked if she would lay on my chest. I was coming out of nightmares all night, and needed to feel a sense of normalcy, I guess. She pushed me away, saying she just wants to sleep. I got up and said that I'd just leave her alone so she could sleep, then left the room. I immediately realized I'd made a mistake, went back in to apologize and let her know that I was putting my needs first and not hers, and that it was wrong and unfair. She exploded almost as soon as I came back in, slamming our bathroom door so hard pictures fell off of the wall. She went on to say that it just feels like every time we start making progress, I tear it all down by doing things like not putting her needs/wants first. She said that she doesn't want to feel smothered, and she needs space when asking for it, and that she doesn't want us to have to sleep in different bedrooms for her to not feel that way, but if that's what it takes, then she'll demand it (she wasn't saying that's what she's demanding yet, just that she will if things get worse).
We talked through it, both apologizing. I communicated that her verbatim telling me last night she wasn't trying to be distant, and then us snuggling up is a completely opposite thing from what she wanted this morning, hence my confusion and frustration. She said she understood, but didn't really acknowledge that she sent mixed signals (I didn't ask for an apology or acknowledgement). Before she left, she did apologize for us being where we are, and her part in it. We talked the whole time she was on her way to work. She laid out that she could have talked to me about all of this differently, or taken some less drastic action prior to things getting so bad to get me to understand where she was coming from. She also admitted that her not doing so probably led me into a false sense of security (which it did). I agreed, and said I thought things had actually been improving over the last 6 months or so, which she said they were, but still weren't what she needed them to be. She further said she doesn't know if the changes she's seeing in me are real and permanent, and that her biggest fear is that I'm doing these things to manipulate her into getting what I want. She also said that she's felt so stifled the last several years, always submitting to what I want and need rather than what she did, and doesn't want to do that any more. I did my best to validate and apologize, and to let her know that isn't what I want either. I didn't fall in love with a robot, I fell in love with an amazing, independent, creative person, who I want to fully express and be who they are.
I asked her to see if she could think of some things I can do to help prove to her that the changes are real and lasting, and to help her trust that I'm not manipulating. She was able to give one example. Of the times I've talked about losing weight so far, she said that half the time I'm talking about it as though it's such a positive thing and that I've worked hard to do it, and then other times it seems like I'm throwing it in her face because she and I have both admitted it's partly due to the stress. I told her thank you for sharing that with me, and told her I will change the way I speak about it.
In all of this, I have laid down one boundary. Our son is on Colorado at my MIL's house until the end of the month. The only responsibility is taking care of our dog. She was considering being gone all last week, staying at her AUnt or Grandma's house, then staying with our friend this past weekend for a girl's weekend (this one she ended up doing). I told her that I would not sit alone in an empty house. I did it for the five days she was in Colorado taking our son there/visiting her mom, and that it almost drove me over the edge. If she needs space/separation, fine, but I will leave and she can stay. I can't stand to see her everywhere in this house with things the way they are. I also told her I don't know if a hotel/friend's house/etc. would be any better, because then all I'd see is the absence of her everywhere. Not to mention the financial expense, and that our friends all have their own lives, and can't be there reliably for me (understandably so). So I don't know where I'll go, but I won't stay here alone in an empty house with just my thoughts. She got a little angry over that, particularly because of the girl's weekend thing (which they did indeed do, I've seen the evidence), saying that it would totally screw her plans up because she had to take care of the dog. In the back of my mind I was thinking "And you think single motherhood would be any easier/different/better?", though I didn't say it. I finally agreed to stay here this past weekend to give her space and let her do the girl's weekend, and she's been home since Sunday night without packing a bag again (she had one packed last Tuesday night, but stayed when I laid down that boundary).
Anyway, I guess now that I've written another book on my sitch, does anything change/make more sense? Any more possible insight? I'm going to start reading now, but am here at the keyboard all day today, so I'll be checking in throughout the day.
This morning, we had a blow up. Essentially, the last 2 nights have been good, or so I thought (we even slept together night before last, which is kinda big considering she has wanted very little physical contact through all of this besides a good hug here or there when we've had a good day, or snuggling at night). She's been okay snuggling in bed most nights, with me spooning her. On some occasions, she will snuggle up to me, laying on my chest. We had about 10 minutes before we were supposed to get up, and I asked if she would lay on my chest. I was coming out of nightmares all night, and needed to feel a sense of normalcy, I guess. She pushed me away, saying she just wants to sleep. I got up and said that I'd just leave her alone so she could sleep, then left the room. I immediately realized I'd made a mistake, went back in to apologize and let her know that I was putting my needs first and not hers, and that it was wrong and unfair. She exploded almost as soon as I came back in, slamming our bathroom door so hard pictures fell off of the wall. She went on to say that it just feels like every time we start making progress, I tear it all down by doing things like not putting her needs/wants first. She said that she doesn't want to feel smothered, and she needs space when asking for it, and that she doesn't want us to have to sleep in different bedrooms for her to not feel that way, but if that's what it takes, then she'll demand it (she wasn't saying that's what she's demanding yet, just that she will if things get worse).
So you asked to cuddle, she said she wanted to sleep and you left. Then, instead of letting her sleep, you woke her up to tell her that you wanted to put her needs first?! Sounds like more of putting your needs first!!!
Did she overreact? Sure. But what can you focus on? Your own actions.
Originally Posted by crouton
In all of this, I have laid down one boundary. Our son is on Colorado at my MIL's house until the end of the month. The only responsibility is taking care of our dog. She was considering being gone all last week, staying at her AUnt or Grandma's house, then staying with our friend this past weekend for a girl's weekend (this one she ended up doing). I told her that I would not sit alone in an empty house. I did it for the five days she was in Colorado taking our son there/visiting her mom, and that it almost drove me over the edge. If she needs space/separation, fine, but I will leave and she can stay. I can't stand to see her everywhere in this house with things the way they are. I also told her I don't know if a hotel/friend's house/etc. would be any better, because then all I'd see is the absence of her everywhere. Not to mention the financial expense, and that our friends all have their own lives, and can't be there reliably for me (understandably so). So I don't know where I'll go, but I won't stay here alone in an empty house with just my thoughts. She got a little angry over that, particularly because of the girl's weekend thing (which they did indeed do, I've seen the evidence), saying that it would totally screw her plans up because she had to take care of the dog. In the back of my mind I was thinking "And you think single motherhood would be any easier/different/better?", though I didn't say it. I finally agreed to stay here this past weekend to give her space and let her do the girl's weekend, and she's been home since Sunday night without packing a bag again (she had one packed last Tuesday night, but stayed when I laid down that boundary).
This does NOT sound like a boundary. This sounds like a controlling way of getting her to stay. So if she leaves, you are just abandoning the dog and it's her responsibility -so she needs to come back and stay?
How about instead of "sitting in an empty house", you find something to GAL? There are plenty of free options out there. You just ave to look for them. Start on meetup and see what exists. SHE CANNOT BE YOUR WHOLE WORLD. Its smothering even if you arent intending it to be. You sold all of your tools and guns and such....what else is left in your life but her??
So you asked to cuddle, she said she wanted to sleep and you left. Then, instead of letting her sleep, you woke her up to tell her that you wanted to put her needs first?! Sounds like more of putting your needs first!!!
Did she overreact? Sure. But what can you focus on? Your own actions.
No, she was awake. She was groaning as I left the room. Literally 10 seconds passed before I walked back in. The apology wasn't putting my needs first, but rather trying to show her I realized I'd made a mistake and that it was unfair to put my desires ahead of hers.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
This does NOT sound like a boundary. This sounds like a controlling way of getting her to stay. So if she leaves, you are just abandoning the dog and it's her responsibility -so she needs to come back and stay?
No, it's not trying to get her to stay with me... it's me letting her see that she doesn't get to use me as a doormat. If, and I say if, she's cheating, then she doesn't get to cake eat. If she's not, then she doesn't get to abandon all responsibility, either. She's the one who is trying to decide if life without me is worth it... why does that mean that she gets to be completely care free? After all, shouldn't she see what a taste of that is like, responsibilities and all?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
How about instead of "sitting in an empty house", you find something to GAL? There are plenty of free options out there. You just ave to look for them. Start on meetup and see what exists. SHE CANNOT BE YOUR WHOLE WORLD. Its smothering even if you arent intending it to be. You sold all of your tools and guns and such....what else is left in your life but her??
That's what I'm working on. We live in a relatively rural community, so there aren't a lot of happenings out this way. I could go into the city, but then it's a financial thing (I had to borrow money just to buy DR this morning). For now, I'm going for walks/runs, trying to hang out with friends (though they're usually unavailable due to their own lives), etc., but there's not a lot beyond that. I'm not religious, so church is out. I'm looking for woodworking clubs, but there aren't many around me.
As for selling everything, one of the big complaints was financial. We have been dragging around credit card debt for years, and have made bad financial decisions in that time that prolonged paying it off. I don't want to live that way any more. Married or not. She knows how much I love those two hobbies, and I think it may have shown her how serious I am about change when I sold them. Not change for her, change for me, first, because it wouldn't be lasting change otherwise. In fact, I've been more frugal with our money than she has the last month and a half, which is a big first.
Id recommend you stop mind reading, and start reading DR as soon as you can. THAT is the strategy.
That's what I'm doing now... up to page 56.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Have you done any SELF-reflection? You cant and shouldnt just change into what she wants of you. It wont work and it wont last. How do YOU want to be? How many of her complaints are valid? How many other things would you change about yourself?
Yes, I have. I don't want to change just for her. Many of the things she brought up are things I've been struggling with internally for years. The last two years in particular, though, I've been more focused on my business... working two jobs has a tendency to drain you. That's no excuse, but simply the reason. I want to be decisive, strong, cheerful to be around, responsible, accountable, in shape physically and mentally, a leader, etc., and I'm working on accomplishing that. In fact, I started working on it before the BD, but I guess there was too much momentum behind the BD already. As for her complaints, I'd say they're all or nearly all valid. Again, these are things I've wanted to change within myself for years.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
I feel like something doesnt add up. Shes a high powered executive and yet you still had to sell all of your things and theres a lot of worry over $500? How can you be on such a tight budget where you cant even buy a book?
No, there's no worry over $500... I've paid down $5,500 in a week and a half by selling those things, which puts us within $500 of being out of credit card debt.Her issue has been that we keep dragging the debt around, by making stupid decisions and spending money on things we don't need/shouldn't, instead of being financially responsible. She's absolutely correct, and that's not how I want to live. I decided to sell those things because I want to be a leader, and someone who puts the good of his family over his own selfish wants. I can always replace those things later, and she even agreed with me on this point when I told her what I'd done. She knows, too, how much I enjoy those things, and is supportive of me having hobbies. But I can't continue being selfish... that's not who I am or have ever been at my core, and how I ever allowed myself to get that way bothers me. I know WHY I got that way, it was me trying to fulfill my unhappiness in our M, rather than trying to communicate and fix the underlying problem. But why I fed myself the excuses I did, or didn't see who and what I was becoming/doing is troubling.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Ultimately, I think it comes down to respect. Right now, you are kissing up to her at every turn. You are doing everything you can to try to make her happy. But how is that a strong partner? How is that someone she respects as an equal and trusts as a father and husband? Turning into SUPER H is not a way to earn her respect. She will be pleased to not have to do any household work but it doesnt increase her attraction for you.
But isn't this doing a 180? I'm doing EXACTLY the opposite of the things she's had a problem with for years. How do I show her I've changed unless I actually start changing? Again, not just for her, but for me, first, her, secondary? This is who I was at the beginning of our marriage, so why is getting back to that such a bad thing? I was happier about who I was as a person, and she was happier about who I was as a spouse. It wasn't me doing everything, but she also wasn't working so much and gone away from the house like she is now. I'm trying to be supportive of the fact that she's in the job she's in, and the demands of that job require so much out of her. In the past, picking up the slack is what I did. And, it's what she's done the last two years while I was focusing on my business. Isn't that showing her that I'm strong enough as an individual to also be a great partner?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
How about instead, you focus on planning for you. Get your business/finances in order. Get the freaking login information and man up to being an equal team member. Figure out a budget for your family to get back on track. Make meal plans and execute them together. Women dont want a SERVANT - they want a PARTNER.
We already have the budget in place (her doing, and it's a good one). She also doesn't want to relinquish control of the finances (and never has). What she wants is someone to help with it all, which is what I've been doing the last several weeks. I admittedly don't know the software as well as she does, but am learning it and using that knowledge to contribute to staying on track/exceeding our goal as much as I can. As for meal planning, I've always been the one to do that, and 90%+ of all the cooking. I have already been incorporating healthier and new items for us to eat, daily (something she has wanted for a while). I'm not trying to be a servant, I'm trying to be a supportive spouse.
No, she was awake. She was groaning as I left the room. Literally 10 seconds passed before I walked back in. The apology wasn't putting my needs first, but rather trying to show her I realized I'd made a mistake and that it was unfair to put my desires ahead of hers.
So she asked for space....you gave it to her....and then apologized for it? Maybe Im not understanding, but it sounds like NOTHING you do will make her happy right now. Thats a pretty good lesson to learn now.
Originally Posted by crouton
No, it's not trying to get her to stay with me... it's me letting her see that she doesn't get to use me as a doormat. If, and I say if, she's cheating, then she doesn't get to cake eat. If she's not, then she doesn't get to abandon all responsibility, either. She's the one who is trying to decide if life without me is worth it... why does that mean that she gets to be completely care free? After all, shouldn't she see what a taste of that is like, responsibilities and all?
No. I dont buy this. If she goes out, then you will, what, exactly? Spite her by going out also? So if she shuns her responsibility, then you will too? I mean, that doesnt really make sense. Im not saying she should be carefree. But your boundary needs to be something you can manage - it should be about YOU and what YOU can control. So if she goes out all night, then what? You go out the next night? Im positive it is coming off to her as controlling - that you are requiring her to come home.
And also, I dont really understand this boundary. Why can't you be home alone? Because youll be....too sad? I mean, why are you putting that responsibility onto her? What can you do to make your life such that your happiness doesnt require her presence? Because what youre describing does not sound healthy.
Originally Posted by crouton
That's what I'm working on. We live in a relatively rural community, so there aren't a lot of happenings out this way. I could go into the city, but then it's a financial thing (I had to borrow money just to buy DR this morning). For now, I'm going for walks/runs, trying to hang out with friends (though they're usually unavailable due to their own lives), etc., but there's not a lot beyond that. I'm not religious, so church is out. I'm looking for woodworking clubs, but there aren't many around me.
So you dont have money to buy a book or drive to the city, but you can find a hotel or second place to live?
GAL is SO SO SO important. For me, it was finding and making new friends that really got me out the funk that I see you in. Ive lived like that! Regaining our sense of self and self worth and self confidence is so crucial.
Originally Posted by crouton
As for selling everything, one of the big complaints was financial. We have been dragging around credit card debt for years, and have made bad financial decisions in that time that prolonged paying it off. I don't want to live that way any more. Married or not. She knows how much I love those two hobbies, and I think it may have shown her how serious I am about change when I sold them. Not change for her, change for me, first, because it wouldn't be lasting change otherwise. In fact, I've been more frugal with our money than she has the last month and a half, which is a big first.
Thats why I said you should make a budget. Stop looking for grand gestures and put yourself on a path to sustainable improvement. A one time infusion of cash is much less meaningful than setting up a household system for managing your money. Scrimping such that you cant buy a book seems so extreme compared to what is a healthy lifestyle. You gave up all of your hobbies - so now I imagine she feels like SHE is all you have left. And thats a lot of pressure. Even if you arent physically smothering her, your actions are showing her how vital she is to your existence. Thats got to be an uncomfortable place for her.
You showed that you are serious about change. But what kind of changes are you making? Are they helping you to reach your goal(s)........?
Hey Crouton, welcome to the boards! Glad you're reading DR, I think it'll help answer a lot of your questions. Also read the links Cadet gave you, lots of vital info in there. First let me say you're trying to hang onto your marriage by a thread and it's just making you look desperate and needy and that is not at all attractive to your W. You (like most of us did) are REALLY underestimating just how DONE she is, and most of what you are doing is just driving her farther away. Read Sandi's rules every day and model your behavior after those rules. Stop the pursuit. Stop the R talks. Pull back and give her space.
Originally Posted by crouton
I understand that I have a lot of trust to rebuild at the very least, and a lot of resentment to overcome and soothe.
I don't understand the trust comment, have you had an affair or something? Typically these situations have nothing to do with the WAS not trusting the LBS. They've just fallen out of love. As far as resentment goes, you can only work on that by working on yourself. Get out, GAL, become "the spouse only a fool would leave". Please understand this isn't about fixing all the beta stuff you didn't do before, you can't do housework and laundry and errands now and expect that to attract her back. A lot of people misunderstand that. You might alpha her back but you will never beta her back.
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She's questioning all the changes in me, as well as asking how it is I could finally get it in such a short period of time.
She thinks your changes are "tricks" to try and get her back. You've got to show her consistent, change behavior over a long period of time before she believes you really have changed.
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action more than words. The action that occurred in the first conversation, and then the real eye opener of the ignored calls, etc. that night three weeks ago, finally gave me the perspective I needed to hear her fully and truly. I've been experiencing a level of empathy I haven't had in a long, long time, and all I want to do now is be the best man I can be for her, and throw my arms around her and heal the wounds I've caused her.
Your words don't mean anything to her right now, so don't try to convince her how great you are through words. ACTIONS are what matters.
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I've read so many pieces of advice saying to focus on me, and to get a life and start being independent in my activities so that she has space and so that she sees me living life to its fullest. I'm trying, but when she's working 70+ hours a week, and we have a 10-year-old son to take care of, I haven't figured out how to do that yet.
Do activities with your son. Take him to the park to fly kites, take him to the zoo, take him to a museum, build a model together, go visit friends and family. Encourage him to go hang out with friends or spend the night and when he does then you go do something on your own.
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I've asked about counseling, which she says she's not sure she's in a position to do right now, and I'm not sure it would help if she doesn't know what she wants.
It won't help. Right now she doesn't know what she wants, but she KNOWS SHE DOESN'T WANT YOU. I know that hurts to hear, but the sooner you grasp the gravity of your situation then the sooner you'll start doing what you REALLY need to be doing and give her the space she needs to recover.
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She's mentioned a trial separation as an idea, but not asked for it explicitly, more in passing during one of our conversations. I've read conflicting points of view on them and can see the merit to each, but deep down I feel she can't see any changes I make if we're apart, and feel like all it would do is push her further away.
If you're making changes solely for the purpose of eliciting a response from her then you're doing it for the wrong reasons and the changes won't stick. This is all about changing who you are as a person.
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I feel like she's romanticizing the notion of being alone, even though she truly does know that it would be hard and would hurt us both to do so.
Again I know this is tough stuff to hear, but it would only be hard for YOU. For her it would be a dream come true. She wants nothing more than to be away from you because she's assigned all the hurt and frustration in her life to you. Your being around is just a constant reminder of everything she hates. When you detach and give her space then over time she will begin to realize she's wrestling with internal demons, that her problems are inside her. Then she may eventually come to love you again.
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I also believe her best friend is pushing my wife towards divorce.
It doesn't matter, if not her then your W would find someone else. WAS's need enablers, and friends who don't enable them get dumped in favor of new enabler friends.
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I'm trying my hardest to GAL, but with no money, there's not a lot I can do.
I thought you said she has a huge income and you own your own business?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So you asked to cuddle, she said she wanted to sleep and you left. Then, instead of letting her sleep, you woke her up to tell her that you wanted to put her needs first?! Sounds like more of putting your needs first!!!
Did she overreact? Sure. But what can you focus on? Your own actions.
^^^THIS^^^
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
This does NOT sound like a boundary. This sounds like a controlling way of getting her to stay. So if she leaves, you are just abandoning the dog and it's her responsibility -so she needs to come back and stay?
How about instead of "sitting in an empty house", you find something to GAL? There are plenty of free options out there. You just ave to look for them. Start on meetup and see what exists. SHE CANNOT BE YOUR WHOLE WORLD. Its smothering even if you arent intending it to be. You sold all of your tools and guns and such....what else is left in your life but her??
^^^This too^^^ Crouton I think you misunderstand what boundaries are, why you need them and how to enforce them. They are not to force your W to stay, that is just a technique to control and manipulate as Amoafwl said and will set you farther back. After DR read No More Mister Nice Guy, you can get it via download from Amazon. It's not what the title sounds like, it's all about "nice guys" and their passive/ aggressive behavior and how to stop it. A lot of us ended up here specifically because of Nice Guy Syndrome. We think we're nice and doing the right things, but a lot of what we do is controlling, manipulating and passive/aggressive. We don't realize it until someone shines a light on it. The good news is once you see it it's not hard to modify your behavior, it's just a case of "I didn't know I was doing that and how harmful it was to my M and my friends and family."
No, it's not trying to get her to stay with me... it's me letting her see that she doesn't get to use me as a doormat.
How is her going and doing something using you as a doormat? You're basically telling her she doesn't have your permission to do anything. That's not a boundary, that's control.
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If she's not, then she doesn't get to abandon all responsibility, either.
As far as she is concerned the M is already over. She is free to do what she wants. If you don't give her space, she will leave you and make space herself. I think you're trying to convince us and perhaps yourself that your manipulative behavior has valid reasons, but it's not the case.
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She's the one who is trying to decide if life without me is worth it... why does that mean that she gets to be completely care free?
Please try to understand her side of this. She wants out so that she can be free of you. That's the whole point. You can give her some freedom now by removing pressure and letting her go, and if you do then maybe she won't leave. Or you can keep up this controlling behavior and she WILL leave. You simply cannot keep her caged up, that just keeps making things worse.
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That's what I'm working on. We live in a relatively rural community, so there aren't a lot of happenings out this way.
25 had one of the most impressive GAL lists of anyone here, and she lived in a remote area of Alaska while doing it. Read her thread here:
Keep in mind there's a delay since my posts are being moderated still... I think a few things you're asking/speaking to here are answered in my last post, which as of this writing still hasn't shown up.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So she asked for space....you gave it to her....and then apologized for it? Maybe Im not understanding, but it sounds like NOTHING you do will make her happy right now. Thats a pretty good lesson to learn now.
According to her, it wasn't the space I gave, it was the way I gave it to her... I let my emotions get the best of me. I was coming out of a nightmare, and was still half asleep. That's no excuse, just a contributing factor.
Originally Posted by crouton
No, it's not trying to get her to stay with me... it's me letting her see that she doesn't get to use me as a doormat. If, and I say if, she's cheating, then she doesn't get to cake eat. If she's not, then she doesn't get to abandon all responsibility, either. She's the one who is trying to decide if life without me is worth it... why does that mean that she gets to be completely care free? After all, shouldn't she see what a taste of that is like, responsibilities and all?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
No. I dont buy this. If she goes out, then you will, what, exactly? Spite her by going out also? So if she shuns her responsibility, then you will too? I mean, that doesnt really make sense. Im not saying she should be carefree. But your boundary needs to be something you can manage - it should be about YOU and what YOU can control. So if she goes out all night, then what? You go out the next night? Im positive it is coming off to her as controlling - that you are requiring her to come home.
Not going out all night, etc., but leaving, as in, separation. That was what she was trying to accomplish last week/this past weekend. She got back from Colorado Tuesday night, I picked her up from the airport, we had dinner, things seemed to be going good, then she gets home and starts packing. The next morning, I told her that if she needs space, without me around, then I'd leave and she could stay. It's not out of spite I said this, but rather I was trying to show that she has a responsibility to our home and family, too. She shouldn't be able to cake eat. While I didn't use that particular term, what I conveyed was that there's no reason she should get to choose who stays and goes. I'm still a part of this M, just as much as she is right now. Regardless of how we feel about each other, we both still have responsibilities. I took over those responsibilities while she was in Colorado for close to a week, and it was her turn. She doesn't want a servant, right? How was I not justified in saying I wouldn't be that for her, and she'd still have to share responsibilities? I'm still supporting her need for space, just not in the way she's trying to have, which I would think would be important for me to do if she is possibly having an A. Am I wrong here? Also, it's something I can manage, because it's telling her that I have to take care of me, regardless of her decision about us. If I feel it's detrimental to stay here alone, why does she get to trump that? Am I not allowed to take care of myself?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
And also, I dont really understand this boundary. Why can't you be home alone? Because youll be....too sad? I mean, why are you putting that responsibility onto her? What can you do to make your life such that your happiness doesnt require her presence? Because what youre describing does not sound healthy.
Yes, I will. But, I'll be sad anywhere, which is what I told her. Why is it unhealthy to feel sadness that my spouse is possibly rejecting me? Why is it unhealthy for me to say that being here would make me more sad than being elsewhere, and I need to take care of myself first? This is all on top of showing her that she still has responsibility to our home and family, even if she feels like she doesn't to me, and to give her a taste of what life without me is like to see if she really wants that. Again, am I wrong here? I'm not asking these questions to be flippant, so I apologize if it comes across that way... I'm genuinely asking because right now, I don't know how objective or rational I am... there's a lot of hurt that's possibly distorting my thinking.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So you dont have money to buy a book or drive to the city, but you can find a hotel or second place to live?
GAL is SO SO SO important. For me, it was finding and making new friends that really got me out the funk that I see you in. Ive lived like that! Regaining our sense of self and self worth and self confidence is so crucial.
Honestly, I don't know what I would do. Couch surf at friends and my mom's house, I guess. Sleep at campgrounds if I had to (I have all the equipment). Even sleep in my truck, if needed. Right now, I just know that it would be unhealthy for me to be here alone.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Thats why I said you should make a budget. Stop looking for grand gestures and put yourself on a path to sustainable improvement. A one time infusion of cash is much less meaningful than setting up a household system for managing your money. Scrimping such that you cant buy a book seems so extreme compared to what is a healthy lifestyle. You gave up all of your hobbies - so now I imagine she feels like SHE is all you have left. And thats a lot of pressure. Even if you arent physically smothering her, your actions are showing her how vital she is to your existence. Thats got to be an uncomfortable place for her.
You showed that you are serious about change. But what kind of changes are you making? Are they helping you to reach your goal(s)........?
See my last post for answers/more explanation to the first part of this about the budget. As for the hobbies, I gave up the equipment, yes, but not the hobby. I can't afford to shoot right now, and I'm looking for a woodworking club so that tools aren't an issue. Beyond that, I'm playing guitar again (as much as I can... lost part of a fingertip almost 3 years ago), exercising, hiking, etc., to try and show her that she's not all I have.
As for changes, I'm communicating differently than I have (except when my emotions get the better of me like this morning), which is the main reason she didn't just leave when this all blew up. I'm working on being more patient, though it's a work in progress. I'm eating better, and trying new foods (a big complaint she's had, and frankly, something I've wanted to change for a long time). I'm watching less TV/YouTube and doing more around the house, beyond cleaning and cooking (fixing things I've put off, getting rid of clutter in the garage, etc.). I'm reading more, particularly books about personal growth, ranging from money to spirituality to meditation to organization. What little YouTube time I have is either meditation, personal growth or healthy relationship content (so that with her or someone else, I get a deeper understanding of what I did wrong and how to make sure I don't do it again). She isn't around while I'm watching YouTube, because honestly, I don't want her to see me going through the changes... I'd rather her see the change itself. The only other thing I can think of I could possibly be doing that I'm not is focusing on my business... I feel like focusing on it so much, for so long, is part of what got us here. I could have been focusing on healing the rift between us for the last two years instead. I don't want to get sucked down that rabbit hole again.
Again, remember the delay since my posts are being moderated....
Okay, I've read some of the responses from you all. Thank you for trying to help. It's been a little difficult to follow for me since I feel like I'm explaining some things, then see a response, only to realize that there's a delay since my posts are being moderated still. Please keep that in mind, too, when responding.
I'm going to come at this from a completely different angle.
Assume I'm a ball of clay, and you are a potter.
When she comes home tonight, what would you do? Tell her to leave if that's what she needs? Not be here and be doing something else? Just let it ride?
I truly don't feel like I'm trying to manipulate. I truly feel like I'm trying to make changes for me, not her. But many of you don't see it that way. Maybe it's because of the delay in my comments and we're all not getting a full picture. Maybe it's because I just really don't see it. But, if I'm not, I want to. I also want to apologize if I'm being boneheaded... I'm just at the end of my rope, and the top knot is on fire.
crouton, please take a deep breath and digest what everyone is telling you. These are folks that have been through it. Seen it and heard it all. Your instincts are your WORST enemy. As you read DR you will see that what you think you should do.....and what you SHOULD ACTUALLY do are not the same thing.
Snuggling in bed might work at some point, but right now your W feels smothered! Snuggling in bed with her is for YOU not her. She has expressed wanting to sleep alone. She has expressed doing a trial S. Don't push her to those because ask people here that have been through it. Pushing her to take those steps will now require that her mind change about those things before even moving toward R in other ways. So don't push her. Give her all the room in bed she wants. Give her all the space in the house she wants. Read sandi's rules please. Do not follow her around the house. Do not feel you need to be in the same room with her all the time. GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE NEEDS.
In fact, if I had to guess, she is probably about as far to the edge of the bed as she can get. AS and I refer to it as the WAS hover. It is almost as if she is levitating over the floor next to the bed she is so far over. That body language is SCREAMING at you.
As AS told you, you cannot win her over with words. You cannot talk your way out of (especially quickly) what it took years for you to ACT your way into. Common mistake we LBSs make. We think that being isolated for years can be resolved by promising to be more present. Uh uh.
I feel like you ignored cadet's thread. Please go back and do all of the home work he gave you. Your thread will lose steam very quickly if folks feel like you just came here, cut and pasted a post from another forum, and then sat back to defend the actions people are telling you to give up. We have a lot of people that want help here, if all you are going to do is defend things that aren't DBing, then you will quickly lose the support of the folks that know what they are talking about.
Remember, DBing gives you about a 50/50 chance of successfully saving your MR. In your case, with your W still in the MBR, that chance might even be higher. However, if you continue to pursue and apply pressure that chance drops precipitiously, approaching 0%.
So use an open mind. Do not trust your instincts. You have to LET HER GO to GET HER BACK. Otherwise, you might as well start planning for life after D.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Have you read the pursuit-distance materials that Cadet linked to you when you first posted? You two appear to be locked in that dynamic at this point, and you have to change that dynamic if you want any chance of saving your MR. This is why people are screaming at you to detach, let her go, etc. You're wasting valuable time arguing with people who (a) have your best interests at heart and (b) know far more about all of this than you do.
FWIW, I am very skeptical about the claim that "DBing gives you about a 50/50 chance of successfully saving your" marriage. I think this gives false hope to a very vulnerable newly-left behind population and borders on the irresponsible. What I would say instead is that DBing maximizes your (unfortunately still relatively slim) chances of R (if that ends up being what you really want) but gives you an almost 100% chance of being happy, health and fine in the long run.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
Steve85, you're right. I'm going down cheeseless tunnels in my responses. Maybe it's that I feel like I didn't explain things well enough for everyone to understand the sitch like I do, so I have to be right (when, in fact, I may not be). This is a large part of the reason I'm in my sitch. Lots of invalidating her feelings/opinions/observations/suggestions/etc.
I got through my list of goals. There are some that I don't know how to break down smaller than they are, but I also don't want to eliminate them from my list. I think I'll just have to focus on the smaller ones for now. I'm also in the position that I can't ask her about them yet. Like you said, I'm dangling by a thread. I'll have to circle back when things get better.
I'm just hitting chapter 5, so I'm going to keep reading. once I get through the book, I'm going to circle back and read Cadet's list again (I've been reading it for the last week or so, but maybe it'll make more sense/I'll get it driven through my thick skull more after finishing DR. Before I get off the computer today, I'll go through Sandi's rules again, too.
I'm so sorry, everyone. I'm just a complete mess right now.
JRuss, that's exactly where we are. She even said that the reason she went on the girls weekend is to try and give us each a chance to break that cycle, and to get to a place where she consistently wants us to reconcile and move forward together.
I thought that the last 4 days I have been doing the same, by not talk about our R, giving her space to work on a resume for a job she's chasing (that she REALLY wants, and IMO, deserves), and I haven't hovered or bugged her about it in any way. She even went so far as to promise that she'd try not to let it take too long, and then apologized when it did (in her mind, anyway... I didn't say a word about the time she was working on it).
One more thing: she actually sent me a text yesterday afternoon, asking if I wanted her to buy a deeply discounted voucher for a trip to Las Vegas that had to be used in the next 6 months. I told her that I'd love for us to go (she only asked because she knows I've always wanted to go), but financially it's probably not the best choice. She agreed, said she'd be okay if we did, but said she just wanted to ask. The point here is she's, I think, trying to plan a future together, but then incidents like this morning tear down what progress we've made.
Also, I think my comments are off of moderation (maybe?).
One of the things that's setting me off emotionally in all of this is not knowing what's on her mind, and a distinct lack of communication when I'm doing things right. I know I don't need to ask for validation or praise, so I'm not going there. If I'm doing this for me, her validation and praise don't matter.
My question is if I do something wrong, and she tells me, do I thank her for the direct, open and honest communication? Hopefully to encourage her to do it more (both for positive and negative things)?
I don't ask this because I'm seeking her praise, only to understand if doing so in both good and bad circumstances helps to soften her heart some.
crouton -- I'm far better at recognizing pursuit/distance than I ever was breaking my own version of that cycle. As you can see from my details, I never could reverse things for a meaningful amount of time and am now (happily -- after a long journey) divorced.
Right now, you're pursuing in very overt, direct ways (the ill fated snuggling attempt and her recoil, your follow up pursuit, escalation as she bears fangs to get you out of her face, etc. is almost the perfect microcosm of your current R as a whole), but you're also almost certainly transmitting a neediness that's more subtle and harder to fix. That neediness has likely been there for a long time, and its at the root of her wavering attraction, doubt and inability to visualize a happy future married to you. I'm not an absolutist when it comes to gender roles, but there seems like there is something to the notion that a heterosexual woman wants a man to "be a man", at least most of the time. If not the breadwinner who takes care of her financially, then as a happy, confident, joyful man who can take charge and pulls weight in other areas. As she hasn't gotten that, she's done the worst but most predictable thing: she's pulled back from you (distance) because that's how she learned to transmit disenchantment and that her needs aren't being met, as opposed to being able to talk to you directly about it (you likely contribute by being a poor listener). Which only increases your anxiety as she pulls away leaving you feeling increasingly abandoned, up goes the neediness quotient, your need spikes for her to show you in some way that she isn't quitting on you . . . and you have pursuit incarnate. This pursuit, in the face of her dwindling attraction, engenders more distance, as she feels "smothered", and on and on until there's no attraction at all and, importantly, no belief on her part that she could ever feel that way about you again because she can't even really remember when it wasn't so. Life's short, she tells herself; she didn't sign on for an attraction-less marriage, etc. . . . It [censored] but is a very common cause of death for relationships.
Just focus on not doing the obvious pursuit stuff for now. Get out and get a life. Be mysterious about your plans. Have a smile on your face even if you're crushed inside. Don't talk about your relationship with her AT ALL. DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP AT ALL -- very important. Don't ask her if you're doing better, improving, etc. If you do this consistently, the other, more subtle stuff hopefully stops being as prevalent over time. She gets the space she's asked for and maybe doesn't like it as much as she thought and maybe pursues you. That's when you'll really have to work hard not to pursue again. But that's putting the ox before the cart.
Maybe just try to put one good day of not pursuing together today, then another. Take it slow. Don't beat yourself up if you falter (you probably will). See where the journey takes you. What you want is a relationship that doesn't revert to this dynamic, so know that what you're trying to do is hard and takes time because it's very deeply ingrained and part and parcel of how you two interact at this point. Remember back to when you first met each other. Guaranteed you weren't needy and didn't pursue in an unhealthy way. That's where you want to get back to, only wiser now with age and experience.
Everyone here is pulling for you.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
I made it up to step 6 in DR. I guess now it's a waiting game, and seeing how what I do has an effect.
Tonight has been good so far. She sent be a text that she was in the way home from work, then called about 30 minutes later. We had good, light conversation about our days. I made one of our favorite standby meals for dinner, and she seemed thankful for that. She actually suggested that we watch a show while we ate, and she even chose to sit next to me on the couch while we did, even though she had her pick of the couch, love seat and chair to sit in. The point being, she chose to be closer to me than she had to. I'm going to take that as a good sign and baby step. She's currently working in the resume I mentioned earlier, and I told her to take all the time she needed when she said she'd try not to let it take too long again. As soon as I'm done here, I've got my guitar next to me, and will be headed to the back porch to enjoy the evening, and do some picking (just have to fight the mosquitoes).
Wow, last night went well. I got out on the porch and played my guitar for a bit. Turned on the string lights, lit some citronella incense, and hung out with the dog while I played. She eventually sent me a text from upstairs, asking me to come give feedback on the cover letter for the job application (it's for the company who produces our budgeting software).
She came down to bed just before midnight. I had just finished getting in bed when she came in. Once she went through her nightly routine and finally got in bed, she first laid down on her side facing away from me. I was on my back, not all the way over on my side, but not encroaching on hers, either. I didn't move at all, or try to chase her. I just let her be.
It was amazing to see what happened next. She fidgeted for a few minutes, then scooted back towards me a bit. A few minutes later, she came a little closer. Then, a few minutes after that, she rolled onto her stomach, pausing to look at me before she did. Then, a minute later, reached out and put her hand on my chest/shoulder. I didn't say a word, or move. I just reached up, squeezed her hand twice, then put mine back at my side. She didn't pull hers away, and that's how we fell asleep. I could almost hear the gears in her head (and could hear the small sighs she would let out just before she changed positions each time, something she does when wrestling with a thought) just before she changed positions each time.
This morning, I came into the kitchen while she was in the shower and getting ready. I made coffee for both of us (I don't care if you were my worst enemy, or the devil himself, if I'm making a cup for me, I'd make one for you, too), and then started unloading the dishwasher. She finally came in, packed her lunch, etc., and approached me for a hug while I was still focused on the dishes. She forgot to put something in her lunch bag, so while she was getting it, I started looking at a printed schedule of free classes for the gym we go to. She came over and looked at it with me. I remarked about how I had to cancel a class this past Friday, so needed to make it up, but it wasn't going on today. She then suggested that we go together this evening. I told her I'm okay with that, I guess it just depends on how late she ends up working.
The point being in all of this that I'm not chasing her, and just that little bit last night and this morning is seeming to get results where she's chasing me.
I will say, some of the things you say your W is doing are good signs. My W leading up to BD had not called, or really even texted me, just to be in contact in months. Her calls and texts were very business like, logistical. "We need dog food." "I drove D15 to the basketball game." Etc.
After BD, with my 180s, and once I really got good at detachment, suddenly she started texting me just to text. And calls to tell me things just to talk. Over time she moved back to the middle of the bed. She became more attentive and went back to doing the little things she had done when our MR was good.
I see some of that in your posts. Your last post, where you type: "She's currently working in the resume I mentioned earlier, and I told her to take all the time she needed when she said she'd try not to let it take too long again."
This reminds me of when things started to turn around in my sitch, where she'd go into her office to work on something and wouldn't bother to tell me, let alone say how long she intended to be at it. When things turned around she suddenly started saying things like "I'm going to go into the office to work on such-and-such. I'll come back out in an hour so we can watch -insert movie or show-". Complete opposite of what she had done prior.
So I see some of that in your sitch. That is all good signs. But as you observed, pursuit and then pouting when it is shut down (which is also pursuit) will set you back. So do a 180 on this. As you said you know your sitch better than all of us. If trying to snuggle in bed is something that will work for you, I'm not going to tell you not to do it. But go for that with NO expectations. Do not pout and get passive-aggressive if the attempt is thwarted. After you read DR, I highly suggest you read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. As you seem to have some "Nice Guy" tendencies. (Google what that means.)
Above all, my best advice for where you appear to be echoes JRuss. DO NOT DISCUSS THE R WITH HER. NEVER INITIATE A R TALK. If she does then listen, and validate. (Read the validation thread. In fact, you should do that before finishing DR because she could initiate a R talk at any moment.) The turnaround in my sitch really took off once I stop talking about the R. She even mentioned in MC that the fact that I had started to just talk to her, about fun and light things, instead of the R was really having an impact on her wanting to stay. So please give it a try. Make a goal to go a week without bringing up your R. Once you make that make it a goal to go 2 weeks. And keep expanding it.
Once you see that NOT talking about the R is having a positive impact on your R, it gets easier.
crouton, I feel good about your sitch. It parallels mine in many regards. Keep up the good work, and make improvements and 180s where you have failed so far.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
According to her, it wasn't the space I gave, it was the way I gave it to her... I let my emotions get the best of me. I was coming out of a nightmare, and was still half asleep. That's no excuse, just a contributing factor.
Theres no need to make excuses for her. There was nothing you could have done to 'please' her in that situation. Stay there and sleep and she would have been mad about your breathing. Leave quietly and 'you would have shown you dont care', get upset as you did and 'it would have been making her out to be the bad guy'. The point is just your presence will feel smothering to her. Knowing that you are wanting/needing something from her is SMOTHERING to her...so it doesnt matter what else you do. You need to work to relieve the constant pressure that you apply with your words and actions.
Originally Posted by crouton
It's not out of spite I said this, but rather I was trying to show that she has a responsibility to our home and family, too. She shouldn't be able to cake eat. While I didn't use that particular term, what I conveyed was that there's no reason she should get to choose who stays and goes. I'm still a part of this M, just as much as she is right now. Regardless of how we feel about each other, we both still have responsibilities.
But I still dont understand. If you leave and she stays, arent YOU the one avoiding responsibilities? My recommendation is to stay as long as you can if you want to keep as much custody of your son as you can. I dont believe judges look fondly on dads that leave the marital home as far as giving out custody.
Originally Posted by crouton
She doesn't want a servant, right? How was I not justified in saying I wouldn't be that for her, and she'd still have to share responsibilities?
Thats perfectly valid. Because she left, I think it's certainly reasonable for you to plan a trip by yourself for something. But that wasnt what you said. Your point was that if she goes away....again, that you would also go. At least thats how Im understanding it. Which doesnt really make sense.
Originally Posted by crouton
If I feel it's detrimental to stay here alone, why does she get to trump that? Am I not allowed to take care of myself?
Yes, I will. But, I'll be sad anywhere, which is what I told her. Why is it unhealthy to feel sadness that my spouse is possibly rejecting me?
Of COURSE you need to take care of yourself.
But come on. Think of what she is hearing:
"If you want to leave me, I will be too sad to stay here by myself."
How is that NOT pressure on her?
TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN HAPPINESS. I mean, it's ok to be sad, but dont put the pressure of your happiness onto HER. Thats one of the points of GAL - to figure out how to be happy on your own. And, no, I dont consider "sleeping in your car" as GAL
Originally Posted by crouton
See my last post for answers/more explanation to the first part of this about the budget. As for the hobbies, I gave up the equipment, yes, but not the hobby. I can't afford to shoot right now, and I'm looking for a woodworking club so that tools aren't an issue. Beyond that, I'm playing guitar again (as much as I can... lost part of a fingertip almost 3 years ago), exercising, hiking, etc., to try and show her that she's not all I have.
Im still confused. I mean, she can take a weeklong Girl's Trip and....you have to borrow money to buy a book and cant afford to drive into town...??
Originally Posted by crouton
As for changes, I'm communicating differently than I have (except when my emotions get the better of me like this morning), which is the main reason she didn't just leave when this all blew up. I'm working on being more patient, though it's a work in progress. I'm eating better, and trying new foods (a big complaint she's had, and frankly, something I've wanted to change for a long time). I'm watching less TV/YouTube and doing more around the house, beyond cleaning and cooking (fixing things I've put off, getting rid of clutter in the garage, etc.). I'm reading more, particularly books about personal growth, ranging from money to spirituality to meditation to organization. What little YouTube time I have is either meditation, personal growth or healthy relationship content (so that with her or someone else, I get a deeper understanding of what I did wrong and how to make sure I don't do it again). She isn't around while I'm watching YouTube, because honestly, I don't want her to see me going through the changes... I'd rather her see the change itself. The only other thing I can think of I could possibly be doing that I'm not is focusing on my business... I feel like focusing on it so much, for so long, is part of what got us here. I could have been focusing on healing the rift between us for the last two years instead. I don't want to get sucked down that rabbit hole again.
So do you have goals around these kinds of things? Very specific, measurable goals about what your plans are? I think that will help you to focus these into clear actionable targets. Like what does it MEAN to be "more patient"? How will you measure your success?
I will say, some of the things you say your W is doing are good signs. My W leading up to BD had not called, or really even texted me, just to be in contact in months. Her calls and texts were very business like, logistical. "We need dog food." "I drove D15 to the basketball game." Etc.
After BD, with my 180s, and once I really got good at detachment, suddenly she started texting me just to text. And calls to tell me things just to talk. Over time she moved back to the middle of the bed. She became more attentive and went back to doing the little things she had done when our MR was good.
Yeah, I'm not sure if you saw my last post about how the evening went and this morning, but even the little bit of 180 I did yesterday saw immediate results. I'm not going to allow myself to feel too much about this, other than it's a good sign. I know things could change at any moment, so I'm just accepting it for what it is... a good evening and morning, and nothing more.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I see some of that in your posts. Your last post, where you type: "She's currently working in the resume I mentioned earlier, and I told her to take all the time she needed when she said she'd try not to let it take too long again."
This reminds me of when things started to turn around in my sitch, where she'd go into her office to work on something and wouldn't bother to tell me, let alone say how long she intended to be at it. When things turned around she suddenly started saying things like "I'm going to go into the office to work on such-and-such. I'll come back out in an hour so we can watch -insert movie or show-". Complete opposite of what she had done prior.
Yeah, I know from my OP things seemed really dire, which is why I tried to post an update reply after, but the moderated post delay may have kinda thrown us all off base. That said, there has DEFINITELY been improvement since the BD. Things are still rocky, shaky and on a rollercoaster, but we went from her saying she "just doesn't want it" within a few days of the BD to her saying this past Friday that she's "trying to get to a place were she wants it consistently". That's one heck of an improvement, considering the circumstances.
Originally Posted by Steve85
So I see some of that in your sitch. That is all good signs. But as you observed, pursuit and then pouting when it is shut down (which is also pursuit) will set you back. So do a 180 on this. As you said you know your sitch better than all of us. If trying to snuggle in bed is something that will work for you, I'm not going to tell you not to do it. But go for that with NO expectations. Do not pout and get passive-aggressive if the attempt is thwarted. After you read DR, I highly suggest you read the book No More Mr. Nice Guy. As you seem to have some "Nice Guy" tendencies. (Google what that means.)
My mantra yesterday (aside from telling myself "baby steps..."), and going forward, will be to mirror what she does, in terms of affection and talking about the R. If she starts, I will reciprocate, and only at the level of intensity she does, no more. I'm only going to snuggle if she asks or she snuggles up to me. I think she wanted to last night (see my last post), but settled for what she did instead. I think this means (assuming I'm correct about wanting to snuggle) that she's trying to trust what she's feeling, what she's seeing in me as far as changes, and that maybe, just maybe, she's starting to reconnect with her feelings of love for me. What I have to do, and have finally gotten through my thick skull, is give her the freedom and space to do so without pressure. By doing that I not only relieve the pressure she's feeling, but also create the mental, physical and emotional distance to miss me, and therefore recreate the attraction for me in her.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Above all, my best advice for where you appear to be echoes JRuss. DO NOT DISCUSS THE R WITH HER. NEVER INITIATE A R TALK. If she does then listen, and validate. (Read the validation thread. In fact, you should do that before finishing DR because she could initiate a R talk at any moment.) The turnaround in my sitch really took off once I stop talking about the R. She even mentioned in MC that the fact that I had started to just talk to her, about fun and light things, instead of the R was really having an impact on her wanting to stay. So please give it a try. Make a goal to go a week without bringing up your R. Once you make that make it a goal to go 2 weeks. And keep expanding it.
Once you see that NOT talking about the R is having a positive impact on your R, it gets easier.
I've read the validation thread, but will read it again. I know I've been validating her from the get go after the BD, because she has told me it's one of the main reasons she didn't just leave and file. She told me she feels and believes that I've actually heard her, and have acknowledged my past sins, and that she doesn't doubt my commitment and willingness to change (though I think she's not able to trust the changes sticking just yet). She also said that she was surprised that I didn't get defensive when she told me something hard to hear, or even lashed out at me in anger. My response was to validate, take responsibility, or simply stare at the floor without replying (when she would lash out, anyway... when she saw this, she realized she was just trying to hurt me with her words rather than have any sort of productive conversation, and she apologized pretty fast after doing so). All of that said, I also realize I need to make sure I don't lose sight of validating her when the opportunity arises.
Originally Posted by Steve85
crouton, I feel good about your sitch. It parallels mine in many regards. Keep up the good work, and make improvements and 180s where you have failed so far.
That's the plan. Thank you for the encouraging words and advice.
To you and everybody else, I want to say that I know yesterday got off to a rocky start in this thread. I think I was just still in a dark place in my head, and I'm also still trying to work on the flaws within myself. I want to take a moment to thank all of you who spoke up, gave advice, and tried to help. I also want to apologize for being thick skulled, defensive, and closed minded. I definitely need to approach this with "a beginners mind", because I've been "going down cheeseless tunnels", and a lot of what I'm doing so far isn't working. I need to keep focusing on what is working, and doing that, and also begin to experiment with some of the other methods in DR. I read all the way up to "Take Stock" yesterday, and purposely stopped there. It seemed like I need to start putting the methods into practice before I can go any further. If any of you have any suggestions on what else to read in DR ahead of time, I'm all ears.
I did skip forward a bit to chapter 10 to read about infidelity, but only skimmed it. As of now, I don't have any concrete proof that this fits my sitch. Red flags, yes, but proof, no. As things stand, so far it appears that if there is an OM/OW (my wife is bisexual), the most likely thing is that it's a co-worker. That being said, my W is trying to do what she can to get away from her job. I've noticed she seems far less concerned with it over the last week or two. If there was an A, of any kind, her wanting to leave signals that either A.) she feels guilty about it, wants to stay with me, and doesn't want to hurt me by disclosing it, so is doing what she needs to in order to get away from it so she can work on us, or B.) the OM/OW didn't work out, and now she's resorting to plan B. The bottom line is as things stand, I'll never know for sure if there was an A unless she tells me. But, if she's trying to get away from a sitch with the OM/OW, that at least shows remorse/wanting to do the right thing, and that's something I can work with and make peace with. If there wasn't a A happening, it shows that she is trying to bring her focus back to her family (which could also still include me), which is again something I can work with.
To you and everybody else, I want to say that I know yesterday got off to a rocky start in this thread. I think I was just still in a dark place in my head, and I'm also still trying to work on the flaws within myself. I want to take a moment to thank all of you who spoke up, gave advice, and tried to help. I also want to apologize for being thick skulled, defensive, and closed minded. I definitely need to approach this with "a beginners mind", because I've been "going down cheeseless tunnels", and a lot of what I'm doing so far isn't working.
If youre talking to me, dont sweat it. A lot of DB seems incredibly counter-intuitive and takes a while to really grasp that what you THINK and what you want to DO just dont work. When something is slipping through your fingers, the impulse to grip stronger makes logical sense and advice to just 'let it go' doesnt.
Hopefully as you continue to see positive trends, you will start to understand more of the advice youre getting.
Theres no need to make excuses for her. There was nothing you could have done to 'please' her in that situation. Stay there and sleep and she would have been mad about your breathing. Leave quietly and 'you would have shown you dont care', get upset as you did and 'it would have been making her out to be the bad guy'. The point is just your presence will feel smothering to her. Knowing that you are wanting/needing something from her is SMOTHERING to her...so it doesnt matter what else you do. You need to work to relieve the constant pressure that you apply with your words and actions.
I finally got this through my thick head last night. I don't know if you saw my 1st post this morning, but it had some pretty immediate results. Small ones, but immediate. I just have to keep taking baby steps.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
But I still dont understand. If you leave and she stays, arent YOU the one avoiding responsibilities? My recommendation is to stay as long as you can if you want to keep as much custody of your son as you can. I dont believe judges look fondly on dads that leave the marital home as far as giving out custody.
Maybe I am, maybe I'm not. I really don't know. My brain and heart feel as though they've been put through a blender set to "frappe", so I may not be in the best place to objectively answer that.
Originally Posted by crouton
She doesn't want a servant, right? How was I not justified in saying I wouldn't be that for her, and she'd still have to share responsibilities?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Thats perfectly valid. Because she left, I think it's certainly reasonable for you to plan a trip by yourself for something. But that wasnt what you said. Your point was that if she goes away....again, that you would also go. At least thats how Im understanding it. Which doesnt really make sense.
No, I didn't say if she left, I'd leave. I said that if she wanted to leave just for the sake of getting space, that I'd leave instead. There's no reason she couldn't stay and still get the space she needs without me being around, but at the same time it would also keep her accountable for handling the responsibilities she has and that I've been solely taking care of for the last month and a half while she's been trying to "figure out what she wants/take care of herself and her feelings first". My point is that I've allowed her to do so for the last month and a half (as much as I can... I've definitely had my moments and haven't been perfect), but I have to be able to do the same. The reason I called this a boundary yesterday is because I've been showing her the respect needed for her to do so (again, as much as I can, though not perfect), but I also have to be able to do so, too. Just from one human being to another, being married to each other or not, we should all respect each other in at least that capacity. And, TBH, I think she understood that. She made a concession by not being gone all week, and instead took the weekend having a girls weekend at our friend's house.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Of COURSE you need to take care of yourself.
But come on. Think of what she is hearing:
"If you want to leave me, I will be too sad to stay here by myself."
How is that NOT pressure on her?
TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR OWN HAPPINESS. I mean, it's ok to be sad, but dont put the pressure of your happiness onto HER. Thats one of the points of GAL - to figure out how to be happy on your own. And, no, I dont consider "sleeping in your car" as GAL
Correct me if I'm off base, but isn't that one of the things MWD talks about in DR? My clinginess/neediness to be with her is one of the things that's putting her off. By saying I'll leave instead of her, isn't that "Doing Something Different", "Doing a 180", and, really showing a lot of strength? Further, her knowing I don't know where I'll go, but by golly, I'm going to make it work and be okay? Doesn't that show confidence, which is universally sexy and attractive? And isn't that attraction what I'm trying to rebuild in my W?
I totally see where you're coming from, and I see where me saying that I would go instead could put pressure on her, seem manipulative (which isn't neccesarily a bad thing... MWD talked about this in DR), seem controlling, etc., but I'm not trying to do it from a place of control. I'm saying it because it's a complete departure from my past behavior, and further because it would be the healthier choice for my mental wellness than me staying here alone. If I can't fix me, how do I even begin to fix us? I promise, I'm not trying to be argumentative or flippant, and I'm trying to gain a deeper understanding of what I'm doing and how it's affecting her. If I'm wrong about any of this, help me understand why, and what a better way is... I'm trying to approach this with a "beginners mind". I really do thank you for trying to help, and I want to hear what your take is. You've been at this a lot longer than I have.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Im still confused. I mean, she can take a weeklong Girl's Trip and....you have to borrow money to buy a book and cant afford to drive into town...??
No, she stayed at our friend's house starting Friday night, and was back by 5:30 or so on Sunday night. The only outing I think they had was going to a vegan restaurant (friend is vegan) and a small shopping spree to buy nail polish and mani/pedi supplies... all of which our friend paid for. My W paid for parking, and that was it (I know because I've seen the logs in our budget software). She's being frugal with our money (and has been for our whole R, at least way more than I have... she splurges sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with sometimes, a lesson I've had to learn), and honestly, since she's making double what I am, I'm okay with her spending money on herself. She's responsible with it, and has a better handle on our finances anyway, and has given me no reason to doubt her judgement, ever, in this area.
Originally Posted by crouton
As for changes, I'm communicating differently than I have (except when my emotions get the better of me like this morning), which is the main reason she didn't just leave when this all blew up. I'm working on being more patient, though it's a work in progress. I'm eating better, and trying new foods (a big complaint she's had, and frankly, something I've wanted to change for a long time). I'm watching less TV/YouTube and doing more around the house, beyond cleaning and cooking (fixing things I've put off, getting rid of clutter in the garage, etc.). I'm reading more, particularly books about personal growth, ranging from money to spirituality to meditation to organization. What little YouTube time I have is either meditation, personal growth or healthy relationship content (so that with her or someone else, I get a deeper understanding of what I did wrong and how to make sure I don't do it again). She isn't around while I'm watching YouTube, because honestly, I don't want her to see me going through the changes... I'd rather her see the change itself. The only other thing I can think of I could possibly be doing that I'm not is focusing on my business... I feel like focusing on it so much, for so long, is part of what got us here. I could have been focusing on healing the rift between us for the last two years instead. I don't want to get sucked down that rabbit hole again.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So do you have goals around these kinds of things? Very specific, measurable goals about what your plans are? I think that will help you to focus these into clear actionable targets. Like what does it MEAN to be "more patient"? How will you measure your success?
I have some, though it's still a work in progress:
-Communicating more effectively: Saying what I feel and think and a more controlled, concise and effective way. Things like "I want to eat this particular meal for dinner tonight" rather than "What do you want to eat tonight? We have this we could make, but we also have this, and this, but I'm leaning more towards this particular one." I'm also working on mastering "silence after the sales pitch", where instead of continuing to prattle on after saying what I need to and trying to boost the other persons confidence in what I've said, I'm going to say what I need to and let my own confidence do that work for me. Tony Robbins and Tom Bilyeu talk about this a lot.
-Being more patient: This is two-fold. Patient with her and where we are at the moment, patient with life in general, etc. fall under this. But, also things like not complaining when I'm stuck in traffic, or standing in line at the grocery store, or listening to someone talk on and on. The measurable things for this would be things like "I didn't get frustrated when she didn't respond to something kind I did" or "I didn't yell at the car in front of me that was going 15 under the speed limit", etc.
-Eating better and trying new foods/trying old foods I didn't like again: I've stripped nearly all sugar from my diet. I'm eating smaller portions (though this is admittedly partially because of the stress right now), and eating more vegetables. I'm also focusing on high protein and high fiber foods, which means my body has to work harder to break them down. That means I burn more calories at rest. I'm drinking more water. I haven't had any alcohol except for three times the last month and a half, and that was a single glass of wine at dinner (when we were having a good night). No beer, no liquor (I don't really drink to excess often anymore, but I was having a beer, sometimes two, most days for a long time in the evening). I've been trying to eat at least one new thing/try something again once a week. If I miss a week, I do two things the next week. This is something I feel good about, as I've found several dishes I really like (Chicken Tika Masalla being the one I like best), and it's something I know she's really taken notice of (she about had her eyes pop out when she saw me willingly eat a mushroom, and told me it was pretty sexy watching me eat cauliflower after I made some with another dish).
-Watching less TV/YouTube: This one is pretty obvious. I really only watch TV when she wants to, or when our son wanted to before he went to Colorado. I have only watched TV alone (and actually paid attention) on two nights this whole time (when she was at our friend's house this past weekend). Instead, I've been filling my time talking to my mom on the phone, going for walks/runs/to the gym, reading, etc. The only YouTube time I've gotten has been all about self improvement. I've been trying to meditate at least once a day for 10-30 minutes, and sometimes twice a day. I'm not really a spiritual or religious person, more agnostic than anything, but it's at least helping me (some) to get centered and calm.
-Doing more/fixing things around the house: First off, my business is a handyman business. So, I've been repairing everything I can that needed to be (without spending money on it... just used leftover materials from other jobs). I've also been hauling things off to donation centers or to the dump (this is the one area that I know she really doesn't mind me spending money on, and neither do I... we've needed to clear the clutter for a long time, and we may be listing our house soon anyway, regardless of a D or not). I've just generally been trying to get our house in better shape. I make a bit of progress nearly daily, and when each room or task is done, I check it off my list.
So, yeah, I've got small, actionable, steps to check off as I complete each thing and get closer to my goal.
Again, I hope I'm not coming off as argumentative or flippant. I really do want to learn if I'm wrong, how I'm wrong, and what I can do differently to not be wrong. I'm all ears if you have anything. Thank you so much for talking through all of this with me.
If youre talking to me, dont sweat it. A lot of DB seems incredibly counter-intuitive and takes a while to really grasp that what you THINK and what you want to DO just dont work. When something is slipping through your fingers, the impulse to grip stronger makes logical sense and advice to just 'let it go' doesnt.
Hopefully as you continue to see positive trends, you will start to understand more of the advice youre getting.
Not just you, but you're definitely included in that.
And you're right, a lot of this does seem VERY counter-intuitive. I still don't know exactly which way is up, but I feel like after last night and this morning, I'm seeing a bit of sunlight above the surface of the waves. I just have to keep swimming in that direction.
crouton, thanks for the words. we all buck against DBing at first. AS Amof said, it is extremely counter-intuitive. It is almost as if someone is telling you that if someone throws a right hook at your head to lean into it.
Another anti-divorce author and counselor (not MWD) that I did a private consultation with said it is like two guys about to get into a fight. One guy will shove the other away and the second guy, once he recovers will come forward at the first guy. She said I needed to push my W away emotionally....and that her natural response would be to come towards me. That is exactly what happened. The further I detached and distanced the further she pursued. Again, everyone's sitch is different, but when you do the counter-intuitive, as you found out last night, sometimes the change is immediate.
That is why your sitch is reminding me a lot of my sitch. As I gave up on the saving the MR, and as I quit trying to talk to her about it, she started to come back to the MR. It is a weird dynamic, but it is Amof was referring to about the distance-pursuit dynamic.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So, since you're seeing all these similarities, do you mind sharing, or sharing a link, to where your M is at the moment? I'm still figuring out the site, and I'm sure you've got it posted somewhere on here. Or if you want to just do a summary of the highlights. I guess I'm just looking for inspiration and solidarity from it..
I finally got this through my thick head last night. I don't know if you saw my 1st post this morning, but it had some pretty immediate results. Small ones, but immediate. I just have to keep taking baby steps.
I like to think like Im losing by 12 in the bottom of the 9th. Sure, you can hit a home run, but youre still losing. Need to string a lot of hits in a row together to come back....a walk is as good as a homer.
Originally Posted by crouton
I said that if she wanted to leave just for the sake of getting space, that I'd leave instead.
To me, this is more of the same. Regardless of your intentions, to me, it is being "Super H". Its about solving her problems for her. It doesnt send the message "this family is important to me".
One other thing to consider. Ive seen way too many cases where an H leaves and then can never get back in. Like, he thinks it's a rial for a couple weeks and before he knows it, the locks are changed and there are claims for abandonment. I know you trust your W implicitly....but so have many men on these forums who were....hoodwinked. I really think it's a bad idea to leave for several reasons.
Originally Posted by crouton
Correct me if I'm off base, but isn't that one of the things MWD talks about in DR? My clinginess/neediness to be with her is one of the things that's putting her off. By saying I'll leave instead of her, isn't that "Doing Something Different", "Doing a 180", and, really showing a lot of strength? Further, her knowing I don't know where I'll go, but by golly, I'm going to make it work and be okay? Doesn't that show confidence, which is universally sexy and attractive? And isn't that attraction what I'm trying to rebuild in my W?
Your clinginess is absolutely turning her off. But saying youll leave will feel like a tactic youre using to try to appease her. Saying "You need space? Theres the door" is a complete 180 on your part. Its standing up for what you believe in. Why should you uproot yourself from your home because SHE needs space? That feels like bowing your needs to what she wants - more of the same Nice Guy behavior...
Originally Posted by crouton
She's being frugal with our money (and has been for our whole R, at least way more than I have... she splurges sometimes, and there's nothing wrong with sometimes, a lesson I've had to learn), and honestly, since she's making double what I am, I'm okay with her spending money on herself. She's responsible with it, and has a better handle on our finances anyway, and has given me no reason to doubt her judgement, ever, in this area.
So maybe you need to learn how to be 'responsible' with the money also? I wonder if there are classes you could take or books to read about how to be more financially wise. I just feel like a one time grand gesture and then unsustainably money-starving yourself is really a great long term strategy.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So do you have goals around these kinds of things? Very specific, measurable goals about what your plans are? I think that will help you to focus these into clear actionable targets. Like what does it MEAN to be "more patient"? How will you measure your success?
That was a good list you posted. Keep going.
I REALLY Strongly advise you to keep looking into GAL. I really think having more social outlets for you would be an incredibly benefit.
I like to think like Im losing by 12 in the bottom of the 9th. Sure, you can hit a home run, but youre still losing. Need to string a lot of hits in a row together to come back....a walk is as good as a homer.
That's a good analogy.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
To me, this is more of the same. Regardless of your intentions, to me, it is being "Super H". Its about solving her problems for her. It doesnt send the message "this family is important to me".
One other thing to consider. Ive seen way too many cases where an H leaves and then can never get back in. Like, he thinks it's a rial for a couple weeks and before he knows it, the locks are changed and there are claims for abandonment. I know you trust your W implicitly....but so have many men on these forums who were....hoodwinked. I really think it's a bad idea to leave for several reasons.
And you could be entirely correct... I may not ever get back in if I leave. I guess this relates in part to not believing anything they say and 50% of what they do, doesn't it? If she's saying space, as in trial separation, it could be a sugar coated method of saying that she feels it would be easier to leave completely and file if we weren't sharing the same residence (though, I suppose that could be true regardless of who stayed and who went). The good news is that she hasn't brought up leaving (either of us) again since I told her that. The closest thing resembling that is during our blow up yesterday morning, she said that she didn't want us to sleep in separate rooms, but if that's what we had to do for her to get the space she needs, then that's what we'd have to do. I say that only to point out it seems that physical space isn't so much what she's after (at least for the moment).
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Your clinginess is absolutely turning her off. But saying youll leave will feel like a tactic youre using to try to appease her. Saying "You need space? Theres the door" is a complete 180 on your part. Its standing up for what you believe in. Why should you uproot yourself from your home because SHE needs space? That feels like bowing your needs to what she wants - more of the same Nice Guy behavior...
I see the difference now. Technically speaking, I suppose they're both 180's from being clingy, but the one demonstrating strength is the one telling her where the door is, and the one that would be most effective. Thanks for helping me to get this.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So maybe you need to learn how to be 'responsible' with the money also? I wonder if there are classes you could take or books to read about how to be more financially wise. I just feel like a one time grand gesture and then unsustainably money-starving yourself is really a great long term strategy.
I am being responsible with the money. I was early on in our M, and got irresponsible because I was trying to fill a hole in my heart. One of us had begun to pull away (not sure who, doesn't really matter for now, though it may be relevant in the future), and it kicked off a cycle of each of us feeling disconnected from each other. I started buying things and just generally wasting money, thinking it could help make me happy again. She did some of the same thing, but it was maybe 1 time to my 30 times.
What I'm doing now beyond just sticking to the budget we have (or, at least will be when the money gets back to normal again... we had a lot of atypical things the last couple of months that drained us temporarily, such as having to buy COBRA coverage at three times what we were paying each month, plus summer camp for our son instead of just after school care, etc.) is thinking three things:
-Quality over quantity: How will this thing improve my life? Is it a "buy once, cry once" item, or is it disposable? Is it truly going to bring an increased level of quality to my life?
-Do I need it right now?: Can I get by without it for now, or at least a while longer? Does it fit into our budget? Is there a better option that if I wait, I will have better results/quality/etc.?
Does this bring me/us closer to my/our financial goals?: This one is pretty self evident.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
That was a good list you posted. Keep going.
I REALLY Strongly advise you to keep looking into GAL. I really think having more social outlets for you would be an incredibly benefit.
Like I said, I'm working on it. I talked with a close friend that we've had since childhood that wants to start going to the gym together (and before anyone gets the wrong idea, this is someone who is in a strong and healthy marriage of her own, and is also completely aware of and supportive of my utter devotion to my W... she's been that way since my W and I were in middle school, always rooting for us, and is now trying so hard to help with W and I working this out). She normally goes/has to go in the morning due to her job, and it's unfortunately while my W is at work so she won't see me GAL (which is fine, it's about me, not her anyway), but just having human connection is a big help for me right now. Both her and her husband have offered a room if I need one for a couple of days (they told me this yesterday), and are just trying to be there for me in any way they can. I'm hoping at the end of the month things normalize a bit, financially. I'm looking for karaoke events/contests near me that aren't in bars... I was in several bands, and singing is truly my happy place. I don't know that I want to start/join a band again, but I'll definitely go sing my heart out. I think getting some positive responses from perfect strangers would help my self esteem and feelings of value. I've been looking at working with Habitat for Humanity to help build houses (and put my skills to good use), but unfortunately they're booked out about a month. I'm going to keep searching in the meantime. Even finding things to do while we're both here at home I'm sure would be a benefit.
W called me on her way home. Seemed a little more distant than yesterday. We talked about various things, mainly about our son, his education, and a plan to get him on a better track going forward. In all of this, we had to talk about selling our house, her leaving her job for one with more availability, incomes decreasing, etc., all of which ultimately had to lead, in part, to talking about our M. We kept it brief, she expressed she's afraid that she's going to make all of these changes, blow up her career, our M fall apart anyway, and then be in a position where she won't be able to financially support herself or our son. The only way I knew to respond was to focus on a future with us together, reassuring her that we make it work, and could accomplish anything as a team. I admit, that's probably not the best response I could have given, but I was kinda put on the spot, and didn't know what else to do.
She's been seemingly less distant since she's been home. She's currently across the room on the phone with her tattoo artist, who's also become a friend during the last several months.
I don't know why I'm freaking out so bad right now, other than just feeling like I may have pushed her away with my responses earlier. She brought the subject up originally, and the conversation naturally evolved towards having to discuss us, even if it was only a little bit. I tried to validate her feelings of doubt and fear, just saying I completely understand why she would feel that way about us, then tried to reassure her that we could weather it out no matter what.
We ended up having just a bowl of cereal for dinner (long story), and I've been trying to give space since then (playing my guitar, etc.). The only reason I'm sitting across from her now is because she indicated she wants to maybe watch something together when she's off the phone.
How bad did I screw up, and how do I handle this if/when it inevitably comes up again?
So, things were meh last night after I posted. We watched two episodes of a show we both like when she got off the phone. She purposely chose to move from the love seat across the room to the couch where I was sitting, though didn't get extremely close to me.
When we got in bed, I was doing a lot of soul searching, and when she saw I was thinking about something pretty deeply, she asked what was up. I asked her if I could ask her some questions about myself and get her feedback. Only one of them pertained to our R, and I kept it brief. I was asking questions like "Do I do things for others with strings attached, or only because I want to do them?" (she said I tend to do them just because, though I often undervalue what I'm doing when people try to repay) and "Do I seek approval/validation from others more than is healthy?" (she said in some ways yes, in some ways no) and "Can you picture me being successful in business?" (she said up until recently, no, because I refuse to play the game/be a kiss up to someone, where she tends to do that, and it's one of the things that make her somewhat resentful of her career path thus far, meaning she feels like she has to slave away to support our lifestyle) . The only question I asked about our R is "Am I more of an Alpha or Beta personality in our R, and which do you prefer?" (she replied that in some ways I'm both, but it usually is in the wrong ways for what she needs/wants, though she could see me changing that easily enough). I thanked her for the feedback, and validated some of the concern she ended up expressing when we talked about our R.
When we turned out the light, she rolled over and faced me, and reached out and took my hand, us falling asleep like that. This morning, when she was snoozing through her first alarm, she snoozed it, then looked at me and scooted up to me to have me snuggle her (I'm not going to initiate this going forward and instead let her do so). I don't know what any of that means, other than it was a couple of good moments with my W, so I'm trying not to dwell on it.
I've started reading "No More Mr. Nice Guy" (I found it on archive dot org). While not all of the nice guy tendencies apply to me, there are definitely a few I think do:
[/i]-Nice Guys believe they must hide their perceived flaws and mistakes. -Nice Guys seek the "right" way to do things. -Nice Guys are often more comfortable relating to women than to men. -Nice Guys often make their partner their emotional center. (this is a MAJOR one for me) -Nice Guys are dishonest. (to a point, anyway) -Nice Guys are secretive. (again, to a point) -Nice Guys are manipulative. (I'm starting to see ways that I was unconsciously doing this up til now) -Nice Guys are controlling. (same as above) -Nice Guys are passive-aggressive. (not always, or even necessarily the majority of the time, but I do get this way) -Nice Guys are addictive. (When I'm unhappy, I try to fill that void with something, anything to feel better) -Nice Guys are frequently isolated. (I've been told by my W and others that this is true, and I'm starting to see that) -Nice Guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships. -- Specifically: Nice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person's problem. -Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful.[/i]
After reading all of this, and with what's going on between W and myself, I'm starting to feel really low about myself. I know I can work to change it, and I'm going to, but it's really disheartening to think that I got to be such a terrible person, and that it affected my relationships and success in life so immensely.
I was going to post about this last night, but I couldnt get it done on my phone.
Originally Posted by crouton
We kept it brief, she expressed she's afraid that she's going to make all of these changes, blow up her career, our M fall apart anyway, and then be in a position where she won't be able to financially support herself or our son. The only way I knew to respond was to focus on a future with us together, reassuring her that we make it work, and could accomplish anything as a team.
My point about this is that when she expresses doubts or concerns or fears, it's ok to just LISTEN. You dont need to solve her problems.You dont need to try to make her feel better. She wants to be HEARD. Saying things like :I completely understand" and "We should do x or y" doesnt really make her feel that way.Response like "it sounds like youre at a crossroads for a lot of things" or "I can imagine all those thoughts carry a heavy burden on you" or things like that let her feel like youre on her TEAM. She isnt asking for solutions....she just wants you to listen and to empathize.
And then you posted this today:
Originally Posted by crouton
-- Specifically: Nice Guys are often terrible listeners because they are too busy trying to figure out how to defend themselves or fix the other person's problem.
and it felt like it completely nailed what I was thinking.
Originally Posted by crouton
After reading all of this, and with what's going on between W and myself, I'm starting to feel really low about myself. I know I can work to change it, and I'm going to, but it's really disheartening to think that I got to be such a terrible person, and that it affected my relationships and success in life so immensely.
Dont feel bad. You didnt know any better. You did the best that you could with the tools that you had. Now is a GREAT time to obtain new tools to help you going forward. You have a lot of life left to use them! Recognizing your issues and improving them is an incredible success story to me.
crouton, I am not seeing that you messed up in any of this! (Except the bowl of cereal for dinner, but I've been there these last few weeks as we've moved into the new house and are still working on the old house to sell it!)
While it may not be strictly DBing, you reassuring her that you could make your MR work, together, is not a bad thing at all. To me there many positives. First it allowed you to reiterate that you want to make the MR work. Second, it shows that while she has doubts about your future together, that she hasn't completely given up on the idea.
crouton, I think you guys should sit down and plan out what you discussed, and the next steps you'll need to take to make it happen. I think it is a valiant thing to want to be more available for your S, to make sure he is getting the education (both at school AND at home) that he needs. And if giving up lifestyle to do that is necessary, then DO IT. You've already shown that you can prioritize things properly (getting rid of the tools and guns). So work with your W to make sure you guys are aligned in the goals, and then take actions to move that forward.
On NMMNG, I was like you. I wasn't the embodiment of NGS, but I definitely had some tendencies in that direction. I think in my MR I did do things hoping for reciprocity. Especially when it came to trying to get more sex. I would read things "If You Want More Sex, Do These Things" and then do those things expecting she was suddenly going to become a sex fiend. And then I'd get pouty and resentful when it didn't happen. But it is a valuable book to help root out bad behaviors.
Keep it up, I think you are doing great things. I am of the personal belief that women are not affectionate with men they aren't attracted to. The fact that she is reaching out (sitting on the couch with you, taking your hand, snuggling in bed on her initiation) are all positive signs.
Remember sandi's rule: 37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
#37 is very important because days and weeks of hard work can be erased in mere moments.
You got this!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
My point about this is that when she expresses doubts or concerns or fears, it's ok to just LISTEN. You dont need to solve her problems.You dont need to try to make her feel better. She wants to be HEARD. Saying things like :I completely understand" and "We should do x or y" doesnt really make her feel that way.Response like "it sounds like youre at a crossroads for a lot of things" or "I can imagine all those thoughts carry a heavy burden on you" or things like that let her feel like youre on her TEAM. She isnt asking for solutions....she just wants you to listen and to empathize.
I see the distinct difference between what I said and your examples. Thank you. I'll try to remember this going forward.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
and it felt like it completely nailed what I was thinking.
I wasn't consciously trying to solve her problems, more trying to ease her fears only because I care (the statement wasn't made from a place where I was thinking about me, but rather that I know she's scared and hurting), but I can certainly understand why what you're saying makes sense.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Dont feel bad. You didnt know any better. You did the best that you could with the tools that you had. Now is a GREAT time to obtain new tools to help you going forward. You have a lot of life left to use them! Recognizing your issues and improving them is an incredible success story to me.
Thanks, Amoafwl. I'm just starting to slide into a depressive state because I don't know what to do to change myself. I don't like this version of me, but can't seem to figure out how to change it.
crouton, I am not seeing that you messed up in any of this! (Except the bowl of cereal for dinner, but I've been there these last few weeks as we've moved into the new house and are still working on the old house to sell it!)
The bowl of cereal thing was simply an oversight on my part. What I had planned for dinner had spoiled, and I haven't gone to the grocery store in a while (we've been trying to focus on eating what we have in order to make sure it doesn't go to waste). I make some pretty awesome sandwiches. I think they're pretty simple and not that exciting, but she loves them, and even said she was excited about eating one on her way home. Problem is, the bread had gotten moldy, and by the time she got home and I discovered that, it was 8:30 already, and she was starving with a bit of nausea from the hunger. Cereal was just the most expedient thing.
Originally Posted by Steve85
While it may not be strictly DBing, you reassuring her that you could make your MR work, together, is not a bad thing at all. To me there many positives. First it allowed you to reiterate that you want to make the MR work. Second, it shows that while she has doubts about your future together, that she hasn't completely given up on the idea.
That's true, but she also hasn't committed to it either. Not trying to focus on the negative, or expect overnight change, but I say that simply to point out that we have all of these other things circling us (house, jobs, S's education, etc.), and really neither of us can plan out how best to move forward on them because they hinge on our M status. That's why our conversation had to naturally evolve to discussing our MR. At the heart of everything, our MR determines our plans in those areas.
Originally Posted by Steve85
crouton, I think you guys should sit down and plan out what you discussed, and the next steps you'll need to take to make it happen. I think it is a valiant thing to want to be more available for your S, to make sure he is getting the education (both at school AND at home) that he needs. And if giving up lifestyle to do that is necessary, then DO IT. You've already shown that you can prioritize things properly (getting rid of the tools and guns). So work with your W to make sure you guys are aligned in the goals, and then take actions to move that forward.
But how do we do that without discussing our MR, and her feeling pressured and smothered? Especially since all planning is contingent upon that?
Originally Posted by Steve85
On NMMNG, I was like you. I wasn't the embodiment of NGS, but I definitely had some tendencies in that direction. I think in my MR I did do things hoping for reciprocity. Especially when it came to trying to get more sex. I would read things "If You Want More Sex, Do These Things" and then do those things expecting she was suddenly going to become a sex fiend. And then I'd get pouty and resentful when it didn't happen. But it is a valuable book to help root out bad behaviors.
I've been trying to read more of it this morning, but the more I read, the worse I feel. I just feel like it's exposing all of these things about myself that she's either overlooked for so long, or has realized about me, and things I hate about who I am at the moment. I don't know how I can change them, at least not yet. I only know I don't want to be this way anymore.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Keep it up, I think you are doing great things. I am of the personal belief that women are not affectionate with men they aren't attracted to. The fact that she is reaching out (sitting on the couch with you, taking your hand, snuggling in bed on her initiation) are all positive signs.
Remember sandi's rule: 37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes
#37 is very important because days and weeks of hard work can be erased in mere moments.
You got this!
I hope you're right. I'm trying not to let it go to my head, and trying not to read into it too much because I don't want to give myself false hope or security. If I get to that point, it becomes really easy to break rule 37.
On reading NMMNG, power through. Man up. The author gives great advice on how to break the NGS cycle. Don't view it as "this is exposing bad thing about me". Instead view it as this is empowering me to make some awesome changes to who I am!
Denial breeds the status quo. Knowing where you have made mistakes breeds change and growth. NMMNG lets you know what you've been doing that has pushed her away. It gives you the knowledge necessary to 180 on those things and drop the NGS.
Take the incident the other day where you tried to snuggle, and she refused. You went out and pouted, then came back and "smothered" her with how YOU were feeling. Next time (though I still suggest you don't initiate snuggling right now) that plays out, instead of going out and pouting, you simple say "Okay, I understand." In cheerful, and upbeat way, then roll over and just relax by yourself for a while longer in bed. See the difference. One is manipulative and controlling. The other is understanding and validating, and being ok with yourself! NO MORE MR NICE GUY!
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I wasn't consciously trying to solve her problems, more trying to ease her fears only because I care (the statement wasn't made from a place where I was thinking about me, but rather that I know she's scared and hurting), but I can certainly understand why what you're saying makes sense.
Of course that was your intent. The point isnt about intent or what is happening through your eyes. It's about what she is receiving from you. And those kinds of responses arent typically what she wants. Imagine the other way - you are frustrated and upset and when you try to vent those feelings, the other person is telling you to not worry, that it will all be better, that you can do x or y. Would you feel 'heard'?
Empathy is a hard skill to really learn and practice. Thats what 'validation' is. It isnt agreeing. It's letting the other person know that you heard them. And that you are listening Youve commented that you have been validating.....but to you is that just 'agreeing'?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
I'm just starting to slide into a depressive state because I don't know what to do to change myself. I don't like this version of me, but can't seem to figure out how to change it.
There are two little three letter acronyms that saved me from doing the same - PMA and GAL
Im not joking when I say you need to GAL. Not so that W will see it and recognize your worth. But so that you can have a safe, positive outlet for your energy. I always found hanging with my friends, we wound up just talking about my sitch and XW. Going out and meeting new people that knew me for me as a person was so rewarding. Its so important that you get some thing(s) scheduled as soon as possible to really help you kickstart your progress.
I've been trying to read more of it this morning, but the more I read, the worse I feel. I just feel like it's exposing all of these things about myself that she's either overlooked for so long, or has realized about me, and things I hate about who I am at the moment. I don't know how I can change them, at least not yet. I only know I don't want to be this way anymore..
Step 1 is recognition. What happened in the past is in the past. How can you take a baby step forward today?
There is a painful period in which you become acutely aware of your role in getting your R to the point it now is. This is a difficult, but necessary time. Don't look away. Take it in. You now have extremely important information at your disposal that you hadn't fully perceived (but your wife has, probably for a long time). Working backward, you have the blueprint for the man you want to be. It is a very fine line between honestly assessing shortcomings and beating yourself up, though, so be kind to yourself and don't expect perfect implementation. As you start tackling the various behavioral changes you want to make (180s), resist the temptation to ask your wife if she sees changes. You are doing this for yourself, not her. If it is for her (pursuit), she'll know, it will feel smothering to her, and she'll easily convince herself that it isn't real.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
First of all, and I don't know how I missed this... great frickin name. Nothing better than a hot, fresh, crunchy crouton.
Secondly, and I say this from experience, maybe stop trying to fix things for her. Listen, ask questions, and try to understand what she is telling you. Then offer support.
I'm off to make a salad...
H 34 W 29 BD 3/12/18 Divorce Busted Spring 19
It is not things that bother us, but the stories we tell ourselves about things.
Thanks, you three. It's hard to put yourself on trial when you know you might also have a biased jury.
JRuss, you're spot on about the blueprint. I need to make that my starting point. Again, not for her, but for me. The overwhelming majority of what she's expressed are things I've wanted to change/fix in myself for a long time, I just fed myself excuses for not doing so.
In other news, I have realized that while in limbo, I can't plan life with or without her. I instead have to do both. It's the only way I can keep my sanity and feel like I'm personally moving forward.
As such, I began to take a look at our finances to see where I can figure out ways to be more financially secure. I went into her office to get a notebook I left in there the other day that had all of our budget numbers written down, along with some estimations I had started working on with her. The notebook was sitting under one of hers she was using to plan out what she wanted to say while applying for the job she just applied for.
When I went to grab my notebook, I nudged hers over a bit too far, and it slid off the desk into her chair. As I picked it up to put it back, I noticed a page that had "Rules of Engagement (LOL)" written across the top. This got my attention because I used that exact term a week or so ago during one of the breakdowns we had, saying I don't know how to act around her and give space because I didn't know the rules of engagement. She threw that back in my face saying she didn't either.
Anyway, on this page was written the following list of things. I know I shouldn't assume anything right now, so I'd like you guys and gals to give me your feedback on it. It could be nothing, it could be a trap, I just don't know. You'll find the last item particularly interesting, though:
-Personal accountability -Everyone contributes to chores -Sell the house -Purge belongings -Family 1st -Time alone -TV less -Cook ahead -Plan a vow renewal and honeymoon
Now, some words on that last one... when we married, we had overwhelming debt and very little income. Our wedding was in front of a judge, the reception was at a nearby restaurant and everyone paid for their own food. This was New Year's Eve in 2006. New Year's Day, we drove to a different state because she was being transferred there with her company, and was going to help out for a week before we officially moved there. During the week we were there, we stayed in a hotel, and while she was working, I was job hunting and looking for a place for us to live. That was the extent of our honeymoon. We never had the time or money after that to actually take a real one, and my employment over the years plus lack of funds the times when I could get away from work never did let us take a single trip alone together. In fact, I could probably count on one hand the times we have been on a family trip, and even those were usually just long weekends. I know how bad this all is and sounds, but it's reality, unfortunately.
Anyway, anybody got any thoughts on this? Like I said, I'm not trying to let it mean anything other than it's a list with some possibly positive things on it, but I'm also probably not the most objective person about my sitch.
Also, just to add, I know she wrote this list out between Sunday night and Tuesday night. Sunday, she was showing the list of things for the application, and there were blank pages after that. She hasn't been in her office since Tuesday night...
I am not sure how this can be ANYTHING but positive. Last I checked Ws do not plan vow renewals and honeymoons with a H they plan on leaving.
This is awesome crouton, just keep up being consistent with your actions. They are working. Keep making improvements. Make them for yourself, not for her.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Maybe, Steve, but it could just be her listing things out... not planning, just listing. I imagine she's just weighing out what she wants, and then is trying to just see if it's possible.
That said, on another positive note, I got asked on a double date around lunch time, about the time I finished posting about the list above. She called me, cheery as can be, and told me her and one of our friends were talking about binge watching a show that is one of W's favorite ones of all time this weekend (MTV's Oddities: The Maxx, for those who remember it). W and I had also been talking about cooking up some crab legs this weekend, as I would like to try eating them again to see if I like them now (again, trying new things weekly). She said as her and our friend were talking, she had an idea for a "Crabby to the Maxx" party, where we would join our friend and her boyfriend (who is my best friend), make crab legs, and binge the show. The point in all of this being, she purposely chose to include me in something that she didn't have to, and still wanted to do what we had planned together.
Combined with the list, my head is kinda spinning right now. We went from her saying last night that she is still unsure/afraid of our MR blowing up to finding a list like that and a planned double date? I want to believe that these are signs of a positive turn, but I don't want to set myself up for heartbreak, either.
Working my way through her list, I see some things I've already begun doing- exercise, food, less TV, spirituality, learning, relationships (at least, in terms of learning what to do and not to do to keep relationships strong), and some things I have already expressed wanting to do. Some of the items could mean something else (does time alone mean time alone individually, together like date nights/trips, or both?), some I'm not sure what exactly she means in terms of context (personal accountability to and for who/what?), and some of the items would require us to come up with actionable steps together.
I dunno... just trying not to get my hopes up too far...
Last night was ok again. She was distant on the phone when she called me on her way home from work (but just the fact she called me is positive), but again seemed a little better when she got home. She also chose to sit on the couch with me again while we ate and watched a show, but like the night before wasn't super close (still, there were other places she could have chosen). Then, in bed, she rolled over after being on her phone for a while (I had turned out the light and was just laying there on my back) and took my hand with one of hers, and put her other one on my chest/shoulder again, and that's how we fell asleep. This morning, she came to me to give me a hug right before she left.
I also got a text from her after she had been at work for a while. She asked if I was working, and I said yes but I could talk. She then told me she was going into a meeting and would catch up with me later, so we'll see what that's about. It was just a little odd, since she usually doesn't text me from work unless it's asking a specific question. IDK, we'll see.
One word of caution I got early in my sitch was not to analyze everything she says and does. I was like you. "That was a positive action or comment. That was negative." Just let htings be what they are without much thought and without having to analyze everything.
Consistent behavior over a long period of time. That is what you are looking for. Everything else is just a point in time. Her actions and words are often times dictated by her mood at that moment.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
One word of caution I got early in my sitch was not to analyze everything she says and does. I was like you. "That was a positive action or comment. That was negative." Just let htings be what they are without much thought and without having to analyze everything.
Consistent behavior over a long period of time. That is what you are looking for. Everything else is just a point in time. Her actions and words are often times dictated by her mood at that moment.
Oh, definitely. Just like with the list, I'm just looking at it as a sign of hope, not a sign that things are good now. With the type of person she is, I can say that she wouldn't do many of those things (particularly the hand holding, etc., in bed) if she wasn't trying to reconnect, but she may only be doing so in just that specific moment. That said, she's done those things consistently for almost every night this week. At the very least, that means that what I've been doing this week isn't bad, possibly good, and possibly starting to soften her heart a bit. The key word in all of that being possibly. Combined with the list above, it's making me feel more hopeful than I have so far, but I'm also not letting it go to my head that it means things are positively changing.
To put it another way, I've been lost in the woods, with no map and no trail to follow. I've finally found a trail, but still have to make the hike, and have no idea how far it is, nor if I'm headed the right way down the trail. All I know is I have to follow the trail.
What she is thinking in that moment, is fleeting at best.
A positive sign ??
Absolutely...
Enough to spin your tricycle out of control and run it into the ice cream cart ???
Absolutely....
It most likely means that is what she would like to happen, not necessarily what will happen...
Originally Posted by saladmakingproduct
Anyway, anybody got any thoughts on this? Like I said, I'm not trying to let it mean anything other than it's a list with some possibly positive things on it, but I'm also probably not the most objective person about my sitch.
So look at it this way....
You are both in a "time out" chair for the next 30 days....
DB, and follow the outlines and "rules" 100% for the next 30 days...
Do not obsess about it, think about what is happening in her head, or think in terms of even being married....
No posts about what she is doing, saying, thinking, or acting, or having a look in her eyes....
Positive things about you, and the salad that you might end up in....
Thanks, Mach. Reading your posts on Steve's threads has been really helpful the last couple of days.
Concerning the list, that was my exact thought. It's giving me hope, but it's not enough that I'd place a bet. I know she's struggling and wrestling with everything back and forth in her head and heart. Just because she feels it one minute doesn't mean she will the next.
I can do the 30 day posts about me only. The only real reason I'm posting about her actions, words, etc. is more or less journaling, though it's also nice to hear feedback from those with more experience.
Oh, and FYI, I only frequent the best salads... I don't slum it with those ones from McDonalds.
So, I've been re-reading Sandi's rules (and thankfully, I've been doing pretty much all of them this last week, and even some during the weeks prior) and have a question...
Originally Posted by Sandi2\
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
W messaged at lunchtime today to ask me if I want to go to an open house showing tomorrow. One of the topics of conversation these last few weeks is that if we did have a fresh start with each other, it wouldn't be in the house we live in. Partially because of memories, partially because we would downsize and live more affordably. I don't think it's a trap/ruse for her to see the house to decide if she wants to live there alone, because she wouldn't be able to afford it on her own. Even if we sold our current house, I'd get half the equity, which means she wouldn't have a large enough down payment to bring the monthly payments low enough. I think she is genuinely weighing out a future with us in a different house. Weighing, not deciding.
Beyond the open house thing, we have also been talking about parenting strategies for our S, which means we will have to talk about them from a standpoint of being together at some point.
I'm only discussing these things with her when she brings them up. At most, I might send her a link for a house listing, but usually only after she's sent one. I feel like if I didn't, it would make her think I'm uninterested and want to stay where we are (something she is diametrically opposed to, and not really what I want either).
So, I've been re-reading Sandi's rules (and thankfully, I've been doing pretty much all of them this last week, and even some during the weeks prior) and have a question...
Originally Posted by Sandi2\
5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.
W messaged at lunchtime today to ask me if I want to go to an open house showing tomorrow. One of the topics of conversation these last few weeks is that if we did have a fresh start with each other, it wouldn't be in the house we live in. Partially because of memories, partially because we would downsize and live more affordably. I don't think it's a trap/ruse for her to see the house to decide if she wants to live there alone, because she wouldn't be able to afford it on her own. Even if we sold our current house, I'd get half the equity, which means she wouldn't have a large enough down payment to bring the monthly payments low enough. I think she is genuinely weighing out a future with us in a different house. Weighing, not deciding.
Beyond the open house thing, we have also been talking about parenting strategies for our S, which means we will have to talk about them from a standpoint of being together at some point.
I'm only discussing these things with her when she brings them up. At most, I might send her a link for a house listing, but usually only after she's sent one. I feel like if I didn't, it would make her think I'm uninterested and want to stay where we are (something she is diametrically opposed to, and not really what I want either).
How would you all proceed?
This is fine. Sandi's rule #5 is about YOU not initiating and promoting talks about the future. LBSs often want to temp check their WAS by talking about the future to gauge interest. It is counter-productive to do because WASs don't wan ta future with the LBS at that time. Also, LBSs sometimes engage in that talk to try to convince the WAS how great the future can be.
So if she initiates, I don't think it breaks sandi's rule #5 to engage in the discussion. Just don't be the one to bring it up and don't make grand proclamations about how great the future can and will be.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So, it's been nearly a month since my last post. Things have been going... well, just going.
As for me, I've been making improvements to myself still. I'm meditating at least daily, playing my guitar frequently (even wrote two new songs, one of which I recorded everything but vocals), I've got somewhat of a new focus on my business (at least in making sure I'm not letting it die), and have been eating new things and all around just healthier. I've slipped in the exercise department a bit, but with how active I am while working, it's at least keeping the weight off that I've lost (40 pounds total), so much so that none of my pants or shorts will stay up, and I'm on the verge of buying a new belt. I've stayed consistent on the housework, so much so that I find myself looking for things that are out of place, and bothered when they are. I've also raised the money to pay off our last credit card this month.
As for W and me, there have been lots of minor ups and downs, a few major ups and downs, and everything in between. About two weeks ago, we had a huge blow out one Friday evening. I ended up telling her that I'm working hard on myself, on our marriage, and I'm bringing about real change. I went on to say that her indecision is starting to drive a wedge between us, and that if she decides she wants me, I may not be available to her anymore. If she keeps giving me a signal of rejection, what will I eventually do?
She replied that she doesn't know if what she's seeing in me is real or not, and that she doesn't know if she can trust it. I replied with " I'm going to call you on your b***s*** right now on that one. If you don't think I'm taking this more seriously than I've ever taken anything in my life, your thinking is really f****d up. I'm painfully aware of what's at stake here, and how much you mean to me, and know that I have to make REAL change for myself, and for you by proxy."
That was a turning point in our conversation. She started settling down, and we fell asleep that night snuggled up to each other. I know that probably wasn't the wisest response I could have given, but it seemed like it jolted her a bit and got through. The next two days were the epitome of perfect. We were laughing, flirting, doing a team project (cleaning out the boy's room of old toys, etc.). We cooked together both nights, danced a little in the kitchen, and were spontaneously intimate on one of the nights. It was like we had fallen in love again.
Unfortunately, that seems to be the high water mark of the last few weeks. Things since have been okay, again with minor ups and downs. There's been lots of talk about moving into a new house (we almost put in an offer on one yesterday). However, just this morning, she told me that divorce is still on the table (if I'd have known that, I wouldn't have considered putting in an offer, because things seemed like we were on the road to recovery). She hasn't decided that, but she said she's trying to figure out if us staying together is doing what's right or just doing what's easy (I felt so devalued when she said this). She called me from her car a little later, and told me that she wants to want us. That I'm doing everything right, I've made real change, and I'm being what she wants in a perfect husband. She went on to say that as far as any kind of intimacy is concerned, emotional or physical, some days she's feeling it, and some days she's not. She said I'm unwavering and consistent in my affection and behavior, but she's just not there. She said that the majority of the last couple of weeks she's been feeling it, but other times she's not (like this morning). She also said that she's beginning to wonder if instead of focusing on looking for a house, we should be focusing on looking for a marriage counselor (to which I told her I already had numbers and had checked our insurance coverage, so I'm on board).
It's extremely hard because it feels like she's trying to find her way back, and at times maybe she's found the path, but then some of the statements this morning make me feel like any progress we've made has either come undone, or just doesn't mean jack...
Where I'm still struggling is feeling like I have value. I know that to the rest of the world, and I guess deep down inside myself, I probably seem like a great catch. I'm smart, funny, attractive (at least now that I've lost weight), kind and helpful, a hard worker, and have definitely learned what to do and not to do in a relationship if you want to keep it a happy one. I'm being the best father I can be, the best husband I can be, and have sacrificed a lot to ensure my family's well being. Everyone I've talked to about it says that I'm valuable, and am a good man, and that any woman would be lucky to have me. But the one person who I really care about their feelings on it is still (at least somewhat) rejecting me. The bit this morning about "what's right vs. what's easy" really did a number on me. It just made me feel like I'm not good enough to be "what's right AND what's easy". She basically said that I'm being perfect, her ideal mate, but she still struggles with wanting me.
I know the problem lies in her own heart and mind. I just wish that I could do more to help her find "us" again...
Unfortunately, that seems to be the high water mark of the last few weeks. Things since have been okay, again with minor ups and downs. There's been lots of talk about moving into a new house (we almost put in an offer on one yesterday). However, just this morning, she told me that divorce is still on the table (if I'd have known that, I wouldn't have considered putting in an offer, because things seemed like we were on the road to recovery). She hasn't decided that, but she said she's trying to figure out if us staying together is doing what's right or just doing what's easy (I felt so devalued when she said this). She called me from her car a little later, and told me that she wants to want us. That I'm doing everything right, I've made real change, and I'm being what she wants in a perfect husband. She went on to say that as far as any kind of intimacy is concerned, emotional or physical, some days she's feeling it, and some days she's not. She said I'm unwavering and consistent in my affection and behavior, but she's just not there. She said that the majority of the last couple of weeks she's been feeling it, but other times she's not (like this morning). She also said that she's beginning to wonder if instead of focusing on looking for a house, we should be focusing on looking for a marriage counselor (to which I told her I already had numbers and had checked our insurance coverage, so I'm on board).
crouton, so much of what you said struck a cord with me. I go back to late Jan, all of Feb. and part of March and my W was RIGHT where yours is now. I even got the "I want to want" thing. She was hot and cold. For two weeks in March we had sex more than the previous 10 years of our marriage combined. But yet she was still up and down.
A lot of that had to do with me. When I was the lighthouse, she'd often come my direction. The minute I put and pressure or pursuit on she when go the other way. I remember one conversation I started maybe as late as April, where I asked if we'd ever kiss passionately again. She said, exasperated "I don't know! Maybe we should just not be looking for a house since our future is uncertain!" I pulled back quickly. There is information some where on here, and you can look it up in other places too, related to the pursuit-distance dynamic. Look it up, When I pursued, she distanced. When I distanced, she pursued.
Eventually that even's out and you end up in a pursue-pursue state, where you both are doing it. But absolutely, as long as she is not in an active EA/PA get in to MC! That was a huge turning point for us. Also, really avoid discussing the R. My W really came around when we started having more fun, light conversations. Like we did when we were dating. Remember that? When everything wasn't all R all the time? When you could just go out on a Friday, hang out all day Saturday, be together all day Sunday, and hated to part each other's company Monday morning? Try to get back to that. Make it your goal. IF she starts an R discussion, validate her feelings, but avoid getting into a deep discussion.
Not sure if I mentioned this, but it seems you are in a good spot for these: look up touch and talk charges! In a nutshell you should non-sexually touching and having small fun talks with your W a few times a day. If she is open to, get back into date night. Again, date night is about enjoying each other's company, and not to discuss deep R issues.
Have you read about love languages? Have you both taken the assessment? Do you know how to speak love to her and fill up her love tank? If not get the book and do it. If she is open have her read it and take the assessment too.
I feel good about where you are crouton. Your W is showing signs of turning back to MR. There will be moments (like saying D is still on the table) where she rebels against it. I think you are in a position to start doing some small things (talk and touch charges, date night, keeping your interactions light and fun) that will continue to draw her that way.
Keep up the work! You are already seeing it pay dividends.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
crouton, so much of what you said struck a cord with me. I go back to late Jan, all of Feb. and part of March and my W was RIGHT where yours is now. I even got the "I want to want" thing. She was hot and cold. For two weeks in March we had sex more than the previous 10 years of our marriage combined. But yet she was still up and down.
I remember reading this in your threads. I haven't had a similar experience, though I think we've had sex about as often as we ever have the last month or so. What I have seen, however, is her reaching out to me for affection (hand holding/snuggling in bed, laying against me on the couch) more than she was just before all of this began.
Originally Posted by Steve85
A lot of that had to do with me. When I was the lighthouse, she'd often come my direction. The minute I put and pressure or pursuit on she when go the other way. I remember one conversation I started maybe as late as April, where I asked if we'd ever kiss passionately again. She said, exasperated "I don't know! Maybe we should just not be looking for a house since our future is uncertain!" I pulled back quickly. There is information some where on here, and you can look it up in other places too, related to the pursuit-distance dynamic. Look it up, When I pursued, she distanced. When I distanced, she pursued.
Eventually that even's out and you end up in a pursue-pursue state, where you both are doing it. But absolutely, as long as she is not in an active EA/PA get in to MC! That was a huge turning point for us. Also, really avoid discussing the R. My W really came around when we started having more fun, light conversations. Like we did when we were dating. Remember that? When everything wasn't all R all the time? When you could just go out on a Friday, hang out all day Saturday, be together all day Sunday, and hated to part each other's company Monday morning? Try to get back to that. Make it your goal. IF she starts an R discussion, validate her feelings, but avoid getting into a deep discussion.
I've been keeping distance for the most part and letting her pursue me. I might give her a quick kiss on the cheek or a hug where I initiate things, but only because during one conversation when she was telling me she needed to not feel smothered with affection, I expressed that it would be weird for both of us if I showed her no affection at all, to which she agreed. She just didn't want the amps turned up to eleven (guitarists will get this reference). Mostly, it's just let her come to me, though.
I have definitely been avoiding talks about our MR. I only speak of it when she brings it up, and only as much as is needed. Mostly, when we have talked about it, it's been related to things we both want in life, our home, travel, etc., not where we are, or where we've been. I've been doing all I can to have light, fun conversations with her. Unfortunately, after a minute or two, she seems to clam up. But, then we have another one an hour later, and then she clams up. I've been giving her space and not making a big deal about it, though.
I still can't say with 100% certainty that a PA or EA hasn't happened/is happening. I'm leaning far more towards no, or that if it did, it was a one night stand when all of this kicked off (and maybe one of the roadblocks is that she's feeling guilty and doesn't know how to tell me/face the guilt). I'm going to try and talk to her more about MC, hopefully tonight, so I can set it up. This is the first time in this past 2.5 months that she's brought it up and actually seemed like she wanted to put in the effort. I chalk that up to her seeing consistent action to change on my part, and the results of said changes, and maybe feeling like she can trust them, which means MC might be worth a shot.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Not sure if I mentioned this, but it seems you are in a good spot for these: look up touch and talk charges! In a nutshell you should non-sexually touching and having small fun talks with your W a few times a day. If she is open to, get back into date night. Again, date night is about enjoying each other's company, and not to discuss deep R issues.
I don't know if she's ready for date night yet. Possibly, and I only say that because of how things went for those two days after the last big blow out. I'm just unsure how to talk to her about it without it seeming like I'm pursuing her.
As for non-sexual touches and conversation, I've been doing just that. Most of it is initiated by her. Things like sitting with me on the couch and laying back against me, or holding hands in bed when she doesn't snuggle up to me, but I also do things like put a hand on her shoulder if she's showing me something, or touch the small of her back as I'm passing by and do a quick rub in passing, etc.
Originally Posted by Steve85
Have you read about love languages? Have you both taken the assessment? Do you know how to speak love to her and fill up her love tank? If not get the book and do it. If she is open have her read it and take the assessment too.
I have, and I know hers are acts of service (likely her primary) and quality time, with a specific dialect of quality events. Mine are physical touch and words of affirmation, and they're split pretty evenly (PT was a 10, WoA was a 9). I don't know if she's open to the idea or not.
Originally Posted by Steve85
I feel good about where you are crouton. Your W is showing signs of turning back to MR. There will be moments (like saying D is still on the table) where she rebels against it. I think you are in a position to start doing some small things (talk and touch charges, date night, keeping your interactions light and fun) that will continue to draw her that way.
Keep up the work! You are already seeing it pay dividends.
I'm trying to... if I never had a lesson in patience during my life, I sure do now.
AAAAAAAANNNDDDDDD now we're back to talks of separation.
She said this morning that she feels like she keeps coming back to thinking what if she's only staying because I'd fall apart if she left. She says that she can't get past that, and that through separating she could see that the world won't explode, and if she chooses, that we prefer each others company.
I'm still against separating. I told her so, but told her I'd pack a bag and leave if that's what she needs. Her first response was to ask where I'd go. I just told her I'd figure it out. Then she said we need to have a deeper conversation before I just packed up and left. I asked her about what, and she brought up our son. I told her that I didn't know, but maybe we would have to do it like what a judge will likely decree, her having full custody and me seeing him on weekends/every other weekend. I went on to say I know that would put her in a bind as far as her job is concerned, and while I could pick him up in the afternoons and then drop him off/her pick him up later in the evening, that's not really being separated, just me living somewhere else, which kind of defeats her definition of being separated, which is to simulate a divorce.Then she asked about finances, and I said I didn't know. Then she asked again where I'd go. I replied that it wasn't really her concern, because it wouldn't be if we were divorcing. The only thing I think could be her concern is if it was a safe environment for our son. Then she said we'd have to discuss it further later because she was almost at work.
I had my first IC session this afternoon, and we're seeing a MC tomorrow afternoon (I sent her a text when I got a call today from the MC office about the appointment tomorrow since they had a cancellation, and she said she'd be there). The IC session didn't really do much. It was mainly just me describing where I am and how I got here. No meds, and the counselor just wants me to work out more to clear the cortisol from my brain, which is keeping me in a state of anxiety.
I'm so angry and depressed right now. I feel like the progress we made over the last 2.5 months has all just come crashing down. I'm beginning to question again if I have a WAW or a WW. I'm back to feeling like I'm just not good enough or worth enough because I've changed, and she's even said so and that I'm being exactly what she wants in an ideal husband, but she just doesn't feel it (at least some of the time... I don't know if it's even any of the time at this point).
If anyone has any advice or insight, I'm all ears. I'm trying to figure out how to detach and just let go of the outcome, but I'm not being very successful.
In-house separation started last night. She said that she sees it transitioning to physical separation as soon as we can sell the house so that we can afford to live separately. She projects a timeline of up to a year limit, though things could change sooner than that.
I confronted her about the possibility of there being an OM. I told her all of the things I saw, and just asked if there was. Her response was no, and I believe her (yes, I know about the rules). She then went on to say that she felt disgusted by me, particularly that I smelled a pair of her panties while doing laundry and smelled sex on them. I had explained to her that it was mere coincidence, as I was bent over her hamper, and they passed right in front of my face. She eventually said she understood why my mind would go to thinking she was having an A, but still felt disgusted. I'm not supposed to do her laundry anymore.
I asked her to hold off on deciding anything until after we go through the MC a bit, just to see if it helps. She says she still feels like I'd either fall apart, commit suicide, or just make her life a living hell if she left, and she feels like that's the only thing keeping her from just going. But, then in the next breath says that she even questions that feeling, and doesn't know if it's genuine. She said that as far as the separation goes, we'll see what happens today during the MC before even discussing anything further.
I went and saw my doctor this morning. I got on some medication for anxiety/depression. I'm starting to freak out and lose hope. I definitely freaked out last night and this morning with her during our conversation. I know I shouldn't have, but I did. I've just hit a breaking point. Things seemed like they were heading towards reconciling, and I was completely blindsided by her bringing up feeling smothered and separation.
If anyone has any insight, advice, encouragement, etc., I sure could use it right now... I'm in a really dark place.
Crouton, brother, I've been in limbo for almost a year now, through ups and downs, and highs and lows. I had weeks when I could barely eat and couldn't speak without crying. I know you don't want to hear that this drags on, but it gets better with time. I am still emotionally affected by W's words and actions, but it doesn't wreck my whole self like it used to, and it typically only occurs when I, stupidly, initiate some R talk.
My point is, as all the legends on this page will tell you and as ovrrnbw does above, back off and GAL. You will feel better. You can either do what I did -- wallow in it for months and months, and I don't recommend that -- or listen to these folks and speed up the process. I wish I would have found the DR book and these boards as early on as you did.
You got this.
Me: 40 W:39 T: 19 M: 12 D4, D7 EA/BD: August 2017 EA ended: Oct 2017 MC: Oct 2017 - March 2018 W signed lease: July 10, 2018 W moved out: Sept. 14, 2018
"I am not supposed to do her laundry anymore" = "I have something to hide and don't want you to see the stains in my knickers."
You may believe her, I don't. She is hiding something. That "I am disgusted you sniffed my panties" is classic WAW/WW deflection. "Are you cheating? Here are the signs." "HOW DARE YOU SNOOP ON ME!!" Classic redirect. As if snooping is even remotely in the same category as adultery.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Well, last night was night number 4 of sleeping in our guest room/in house separation. I got with my PCP and got prescriptions for Zoloft and Hydroxyzine because I was waking up during the first two nights in panic attacks. I can still feel the adrenaline start to pump when I have thoughts of her that start to set me off, though last night was at least a little better. I came across some grounding techniques that are supposed to help with detachment, and that combined with listening to some affirmations while going to sleep seemed to at least let me sleep better than I have all this past week. I can post the techniques for grounding if someone would like... I haven't seen anything here like them, and they may be helpful.
We had a bit of a blowout yesterday morning. The takeaway is I think she's willing to do the in house separation longer than she originally planned, though she said that she still wants to get the house ready to sell because no matter the outcome, she doesn't see us staying here. She also said that the likely outcome is divorce, but she doesn't know if as things become more real to her, maybe she'll change her mind.
We set a few ground rules, mostly having to do with my behavior towards her the last couple of days (I've been gone and didn't tell her where, acting cold towards her, scowling at her, etc... I know I shouldn't, but I'm at my ropes end) and about living arrangements. She did say that she'd start to actively be more involved in taking care of our S, as far as picking him up in the afternoons, and that she's going to step up efforts to do things during the week such as cleaning, cooking, etc. because she doesn't feel that all that responsibility should fall to me. She said I shouldn't have to feel like I'm doing everything to please her, and she doesn't want to feel that way either. I told her that it's not just about her, that I've been doing everything for me first, her second, and it seemed like maybe she believed me.
This morning, I did a few small things to try and get past the cold shoulder vibe I was giving her. Our S slept with her last night, so when I went to wake him up to get him ready for school, I made the bed after (she was in the bathroom), and I also made her coffee when I made mine (she did thank me for this). I also told her I'd help with the bandages in her tattoo she got yesterday (back piece) if she needed, and we both told each other to have a good day. I guess I'm just working hard on trying to keep things light and civil because I don't want sad or angry vibes on my part to push her further away.
I also noticed that she's wearing A ring on her left ring finger, but not one of THE rings I've given her over the years (her original set was stolen). She's changed them up through the years, but always worn one I've given her.
I'm still working to find more things to GAL. The weekends may not be as difficult, but during the week is the biggest challenge.
Had another IC session today. I like the guy. Not getting a lot in terms of techniques or anything, but he's very good at letting me work through a problem by steering me. In terms of GAL, we talked through some things... I may start writing a book, and taking lots of trips to coffee shops to do so. I'm also on the lookout for camping groups in the area, or may even just start by myself (as much as I don't want to be alone right now).
I'm rereading all of Sandi's rules, and all the info Cadet posted. I definitely think I'm at the LRT stage.
Why are you sleeping in the guest room and not her?
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
I don't really know, other than I slept there in order to not disturb her on the first night, then after our dumpster fire of a MC session, I went to a friend's house to try and cool off. When I came home, she and our S were in the bed in the Master Bedroom (I can't call it ours, mentally right now) in bed. He slept in there for three nights with her, so I've been in the guest room.
In other news, here's what I know and what my plan is:
What I know:
- I know she's removing pictures of us/turning them backwards.
- I know she's separating our finances in our budgeting software (not in the bank, however).
- I know she needs space now more than ever.
- I know that she said that the couple of good weeks were her "just trying", but she's "not feeling it" from what she says (which we're not supposed to believe, right? Only half of what she does?).
- I know she says that she feels like I am not an independent person, and that I rely on her for my emotional well being, as well as I'm possibly incapable of supporting myself financially/responsibly.
- I know she's saying divorce is the most likely outcome, though she also said as things get more real, she could change her mind.
My plan:
- I'm trying to come at things with a new mindset. I'm basically going back to DB101 and starting from scratch.
- I'm going to see if she can pick up our S tomorrow, and I'm going out. I dunno where yet, maybe to a coffee shop or cafe, but I've got to GAL more.
- I'm already planning to do a project at a friend's house Saturday, so I've got that day nailed down so far.
- I'm going to go to the gym if I can, even if it's early in the morning.
- In effect, I'm doing a 180 while GAL in doing these things.
- Keep showing consistent behavior that I am a strong, independent person who is put together and can take care of themselves.
Goals:
- Have her initiate conversation (non MR related) beyond just businesslike "good morning", "have a good day", etc.
- Have her invite me to do something (with our S, friends, or individually). This can be casual, like watch a show.
- Make her smile (joke, action, etc.) without pursuing her, kind of an in the moment thing during a discussion (with her or others while she's present).
-Touch each other (non-sexually) without her recoiling (hand at small of back while passing, touching a shoulder, etc.).
Guys, I really need all hands on deck here. Please give me any feedback or suggestions, encouragement, etc. you can muster. If you're friends with a veteran of these boards, please invite them in for their take on things.
Your goals are almost all about her. You can't control her, nor should you try to. You shouldn't try to elicit a reaction about her, that's still control.
Your goals need to be about YOU. How can you become a better person?
W 34 Me 42 Married 7 years together 8 0 kids 1 beloved dog BD 4/6/2018 I moved out 4/7/2018 I moved back in alone 8/05/2018 I file 3/06/2019 D official 5/7/2019
So, last night, and the last couple of days, really, things have been civil, but succinct. It's been very businesslike.
Without pursuing your spouse, how did some of you move past this? I don't want to strike up conversation (that's pursuing), but I don't know that she's going to move past this point. It may just take time, I suppose, but it feels a little like she's digging her heals in.
She might. She might not. But the only way to move past it positively is for you to wait for her to move past it.
Are you familiar with the lighthouse analogy? You are the lighthouse. The lighthouse doesn't move. It stands in one place, shining it's light in all directions. Sometimes she sees it sometimes she doesn't. But sometime when she gets a glimpse of the light as it passes by, she'll wonder what is going on at the lighthouse. Eventually that wonder will get the best of her and she'll come to observe. Then on one of her trips to observe the notion may strike her to go into the lighthouse. And then it might lead her to actually going into the lighthouse at some point.
Baby steps. Over time. Requires patience. Be the patient lighthouse.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Forget for a moment how she sees you. How do you see yourself? Do you believe that you can't support yourself emotionally or financially? Is she right about that? Those would be my chief areas of inquiry right now. Keep the focus only on what you can control. You can get a (better) job -- employers are having a hard time even finding people right now, so there's demand out there. You can go to IC. You can continue to meditate, exercise and GAL. Speaking as someone who lived a lot of what you're living right now, you've got to flip the dynamic and quit focusing on her, her reaction to what you do, and how "things are going" with your relationship. Realize they are going very badly and let it go. She is hyper aware right now, constantly looking at you and your behavior for validation that you aren't your own man and are completely dependent on her. You will put of tells if you don't get your focus back on what you can control even when you think you're not. This is what makes in-home separation so hard -- you can't get much physical space, and she is seeing what she wants to see in you now. She is done with your marriage and, in her eyes, is just trying to soften your landing and ease her own guilt feelings at this point. See her for what she is -- a woman whose broken her vows in a myriad of ways who you wouldn't even want back right now unless she also changes and commits anew to your marriage -- and just focus on getting your own house in order. That's really all you can do. I can promise you that if you keep your focus on your R and her, your marriage will end. It probably will anyway, I hate to tell you. But realize you'll be fine eventually if you rebuild yourself; happier, indeed, than you've been in years and happier than you thought possible. And, if that's the case (and it is), why not start that process now? Seriously -- get going.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
I confronted her about the possibility of there being an OM. I told her all of the things I saw, and just asked if there was.
She told you that you repulse her, that she is done with you and wants out of the M, there's really nothing to gain about confronting her about an OM.
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She then went on to say that she felt disgusted by me, particularly that I smelled a pair of her panties while doing laundry and smelled sex on them. I had explained to her that it was mere coincidence, as I was bent over her hamper, and they passed right in front of my face.
That's a pretty serious violation of her privacy, and I highly doubt it was an accident. Her attitude right now is you're no longer married except on paper, so she feels it's her right to have an affair and that if she does it's none of your business. I'm not saying she's right (in fact it's wrong, she's clearly violating vows she made) but that's how she sees it. That's how WAS's think.
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She says she still feels like I'd either fall apart, commit suicide, or just make her life a living hell if she left, and she feels like that's the only thing keeping her from just going.
She clearly sees you as desperate and needy and that is completely unattractive. You've got to turn that around, but it's going to take a long time.
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I went and saw my doctor this morning. I got on some medication for anxiety/depression.
Good. Keep in mind it takes a while for A/D's to reach efficacy in your body, so be patient. You should feel better in about a week but it can take up to a month for the effects to reach full efficacy.
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What I know:
That is typical WAS behavior. It doesn't mean anything. You may recon or you may not, but none of that is any indication of which way you'll go.
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Goals: - Have her initiate conversation (non MR related) beyond just businesslike "good morning", "have a good day", etc.
- Have her invite me to do something (with our S, friends, or individually). This can be casual, like watch a show.
- Make her smile (joke, action, etc.) without pursuing her, kind of an in the moment thing during a discussion (with her or others while she's present).
-Touch each other (non-sexually) without her recoiling (hand at small of back while passing, touching a shoulder, etc.).
I agree with Davide, your "goals" (they're not really, they are excuses to pursue) are all W-focused and they all involve pursuit and pursuit is BAD. Your goals need to be things YOU have control over, and measurable. For example, if you need to lose weight then "lose weight" isn't a good goal but "lose 10 pounds" is. Set fitness goals, employment goals, appearance/clothing goals, friendship goals. Join meetup and get out there and meet new people, meeting 10 new people in the next month would be a fantastic goal. Reach out to old friends you haven't talked to in a while. Get together with family if you haven't in a while. Do some traveling. Start new hobbies. Dust off old ones. Get out. GAL.
As far as the goals, I was just going off of what I understood MWD to be explaining in DR under the "Know What You Want" chapter. The way she explains it, you're coming up with goals that are milestone markers of baby steps that your MR is headed in the right direction. That's what I meant by goals. Is this not something I should be looking for?
My plan I listed out is exactly what you're all telling me to do, at least I think so. If you have improvements to suggest, I'd love that... I need all the help I help I can get right now.
AS, I did want to respond to the panties thing. It really was coincidence. We have a front loading washer that sits about 2 feet off the floor. I was in front of it, emptying her hamper into it. I had to reach down into the bottom to get what was there out, and was just tossing things in the washer while I was bent over. As I pulled this pair out and was tossing them in, the smell was extremely strong, even though they were a foot from my face. I wasn't trying to violate her privacy, and never have wanted to do so our entire MR. I especially wouldn't want to during all this because I know the consequences of what would happen if I did. I totally understand what you're saying about how she's feeling, though, and I thank you for the 2x4 of perspective.
Well, just got informed she's going to look at apartments this weekend, and that she's appreciated the space this week. She also wants to sit and discuss "the plan" as soon as we're ready, but knows that things are still raw.
Spoke with W this morning. She said that her plan is to move close to her job (65+ miles away), and that the apartment hunting this weekend is to get a lay of the land, find out about costs, etc., though she's considering instead of a trip we had planned the week of September 26th to go see her brother in California, she may possibly cancel it and take that time to move. The sad part is, the 26th is my birthday.
Guys, I'm feeling pretty low right now. I'm scared, I'm hurt, and I'm so lonely.
Well, just got informed she's going to look at apartments this weekend, and that she's appreciated the space this week. She also wants to sit and discuss "the plan" as soon as we're ready, but knows that things are still raw.
FML.
Stop reacting to her words. This could be her blowing smoke. WASs are on their own roller-coaster. I just told another poster, they vacillate between weeks of inaction, and then sudden manic periods of "we have to get this done!"
When she say something assume that it is a lie until you see action suggesting otherwise. Trust me, she can read you like a book. If she says "I am going to look at apartments this weekend" and your attitude (not just your words) is "meh, I don't give to spits", the wind comes out of her sails. If she says "he also wants to sit and discuss "the plan" as soon as we're ready, but knows that things are still raw." just say (AND MEAN), "I am good whenever you are." Again, your 180 on this (instead of being sad, mopey, and acting as if it is still RAW) will likely take the wind out of her sails. Don't try to move it forward, but just tell her you are ready whenever. This puts the ball in her court. Don't make a suggestion "how about this Thursday?" That is what she is hoping you'll do. Just being all "cool, whenever" likely she'll never follow through on it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Spoke with W this morning. She said that her plan is to move close to her job (65+ miles away), and that the apartment hunting this weekend is to get a lay of the land, find out about costs, etc., though she's considering instead of a trip we had planned the week of September 26th to go see her brother in California, she may possibly cancel it and take that time to move. The sad part is, the 26th is my birthday.
Guys, I'm feeling pretty low right now. I'm scared, I'm hurt, and I'm so lonely.
Words.....that all she's done is talk. Wait until you see actual action. Do not help. Just listen and validate.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I dunno, Steve... I saw action that suggested we were headed toward R, but then at the drop of a hat, she turned tail and we are where we are now.
I do know she feels guilty about all of this, but it's not seemingly slowing her down any. The fact that she started talking about moving possibly the week of my birthday makes it feel like she's in complete "IDGAF" mode.
I have been trying to be cool this whole week during the in house separation, but then she escalates things this way.
I know she is, but this feels more like a parachute drop than a roller coaster.
I definitely feel like I'm not figuring out how to detach. I also feel like the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL I'm trying to do isn't really working. She made a comment about not knowing where I was last night. She said that she only brought it up so she'd know what to tell our S when he asked where I was and when I was coming home. When I proceeded to tell her, she said that it's none of her business, and that I'm either not telling her because I just don't want her to know or that I'm just doing it so she'll ask.
I also feel like the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL I'm trying to do isn't really working.
C,
There are no magic bullets, actions or techniques that are going to turn this around for you. I am going to post below a post I read a year ago that finally made me understand what was going on. This was posted by Accuray on a posters thread.
Very sorry for what you've gone through here, it's heartbreaking. You've done some things very well and handled the initial situation as well as can be expected. More recently however you're falling into a very familiar pattern that leads to a long period of pain and limbo.
Being in this situation is like dying of thirst floating on a raft in a poison lake. Everyone will tell you not to drink the water, and why you shouldn't drink the water and what will happen to you if you drink the water. You can intellectually understand what they're saying, you "get it", you can convince yourself that you're not going to drink the water, but each night when you go to sleep and each morning when you wake up, you're thirsty as hell and the water is right there, so it's extremely easy to convince yourself that a little sip can't hurt. Despite the fact that you know you should not drink the water, you will just keep doing it because you keep convincing yourself it’s okay to do so because you're just dying of thirst.
So how do we bring that to your scenario? There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.
You are not safe for her to approach until she feels you've let her go. That's a simple truth, but incredibly hard to accept.
Reaching out to W, making overtures, contacting W's family, talking to OM's W, snooping on W, this is all "drinking the poison water"
Why are you doing it? Why are you so obsessed with W? You were in a relationship with a woman who wasn't meeting your needs, who would irrationally blame you for anything that went wrong, and then cheated on you and lied to you. Why is that a prize worth making the focus of your waking attention?
The reason is that you are grasping to re-establish a feeling of control over your life.
When W dropped the bomb she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.
That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!
You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.
Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.
With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.
You're dying of thirst (feeling out of control), and pursuing W is drinking the water out of the poison lake. You think it will satisfy your thirst each time you do it, but really it's just making you sicker.
We will tell you "don't drink the water!" Intellectually you'll agree, but the water is always there and logically it seems that drinking it is the shortest path to no longer being thirsty.
Instead, you need to paddle your ass to the shore, leave the raft behind, and get a drink somewhere else.
That's not code for having your own affair or finding a new woman to have a relationship with. It has to do with finding an authentic way to rebuild your feeling of being in control, controlling your own destiny and getting your mojo back.
If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.
Thanks, LH19... The story is correct, I do intellectually understand what to do, I just don't know how to start paddling. I know there are lots of ideas about old friends, hobbies, etc. to start focusing on and reconnecting with me, but none of them really seem to work for my sitch.
I have two people I can call true friends in my life. This is largely due to to A.) focusing so much time on my business the last two years and B.) the rest of my friends are mutual friends with my W, of which all of them have "chosen her side". The point is I don't really have any old friends to reconnect with, and I'm pretty well connected with the two I do have, though they're extremely busy with their own lives.
I earn about $2,500 per month. After doing the math on what it will cost me just to even support myself once physical separation begins, I'm really going to be struggling just to make ends meet. Also, my business is a handyman business, which means my income is variable. Since going into business for myself, I have been able to pay myself what I was making before I left my last job, but it has only been 6 months. I say all of this to say that hobbies or activities where I might make new friends aren't really affordable in the future, and as things stand right now, I have to start tucking away money for deposits, furniture, dishes, etc. for a new place.
I've been trying to read more, but my mind will not focus, and keeps wandering back to W and our MR. The same is true for TV/movies. Also, the few times I've tried to do these things, W comments that I'm being sulky, etc., though this will not happen anymore after physical separation.
I also live in a fairly rural area, so there's not a lot of recreational things to do where i might meet new people. I'm not religious, so no houses of worship, either. Can I do things alone? Sure, but the only thing I can really do is go out hiking, and that gets old fast, especially alone.
All of this on top of having to be the primary one to take care of our S each afternoon, make dinner, check schoolwork, etc. makes this all the more difficult.
I'm trying to come up with ways to do exactly what I'm being advised to do, but I keep hitting roadblocks at every turn. I know that doing these things will help me to let go and detach, but I keep drawing a blank on what I can do to fill my time.
I also feel like the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL I'm trying to do isn't really working.
How is it not working?
If you mean it isn't working to immediately get her to change her mind about D, then you are right. But that doesn't mean it isn't working. All of that is FOR YOU as much as her.
1) She is going to either D you or stay. 2) You have to be okay with either outcome. 3) On your own you are incapable of being okay. 4) the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL helps you learn how to be okay
crouton, we sound like broken records on this board, but if you are 'the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL" to manipulate her IT WILL NEVER WORK. WASs are notorious for knowing why you are doing something, and if they detect you are doing it just to get them to change their mind they will dig in their heels.
BUT if you do it for yourself and yourself ONLY,eventually she will see that you are really changing, and you are really moving on, and you are really going to be okay NO MATTER WHAT. And sometimes (50% or less of the time) it also causes her wonder what changed and why and to become interested again.
"the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL" ALWAYS works if done right and for the right reason because it will either get her to come back, or allow you to be okay even if she doesn't.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I am and have been doing it for me, not just to get her to stay, and not to manipulate. I know that doing things that way would either fail, or would cause her to leave shortly after. I also know that I would carry this baggage into a new R if I don't change for me. and then I'd be in the same cycle again with someone else.
As far as it working goes, I mean seeing baby steps that we could work this out. In the beginning, it was. I pulled back,she came closer. Did I backslide on occasion? Of course. But, we seemed to recover well. Then she starts talking future plans, moving into a new house, clean break, fresh start for us, etc., and when the house we found that we wanted fell through, she slammed on the brakes, threw it in reverse, and is now driving the opposite way.
The problem I'm having now is implementing more of the GAL, 180's, etc. due to finances and responsibilities, as well as location. I know I have to do these things because, as you said, it will either get her to come back, or it will help me be okay if she doesn't... I just can't figure out how.
Not really... I mean, I obviously want my W to come back, so, yeah, I'm looking for signs of that happening/not happening. But, I also have realized that I have to change, too, for my own emotional/mental health, whether I stay married to her or not.
I definitely feel like I'm not figuring out how to detach. I also feel like the space I'm giving her, combined with the 180's I've done, also combined with the GAL I'm trying to do isn't really working.
Crouton, we've said it a thousand times, it's in Michele's book, it's in Cadet's first post to you, it's all over these forums- YOU MUST BE PATIENT!!!!!! It is FAR too soon to know if it's "working". It took your W a long time to get to this point and she's not going to reverse course in a few weeks or months. This is a marathon, not a sprint. There is no magic trick to make it all go away and return things to "normal". You've got a long ways to go yet. Work on yourself. Get out and GAL. Become the spouse only a fool would leave. Lose the codependence. Become strong, independent, content, attractive. THEN she may look back. But not until then. Definitely not now when you are still super needy and desperate. Be patient, follow the techniques and trust that they will yield positive results down the road.
Feel good about this new you as much as you can. 
I am not proud of it.