Keep in mind there's a delay since my posts are being moderated still... I think a few things you're asking/speaking to here are answered in my last post, which as of this writing still hasn't shown up.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So she asked for space....you gave it to her....and then apologized for it? Maybe Im not understanding, but it sounds like NOTHING you do will make her happy right now. Thats a pretty good lesson to learn now.
According to her, it wasn't the space I gave, it was the way I gave it to her... I let my emotions get the best of me. I was coming out of a nightmare, and was still half asleep. That's no excuse, just a contributing factor.
Originally Posted by crouton
No, it's not trying to get her to stay with me... it's me letting her see that she doesn't get to use me as a doormat. If, and I say if, she's cheating, then she doesn't get to cake eat. If she's not, then she doesn't get to abandon all responsibility, either. She's the one who is trying to decide if life without me is worth it... why does that mean that she gets to be completely care free? After all, shouldn't she see what a taste of that is like, responsibilities and all?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
No. I dont buy this. If she goes out, then you will, what, exactly? Spite her by going out also? So if she shuns her responsibility, then you will too? I mean, that doesnt really make sense. Im not saying she should be carefree. But your boundary needs to be something you can manage - it should be about YOU and what YOU can control. So if she goes out all night, then what? You go out the next night? Im positive it is coming off to her as controlling - that you are requiring her to come home.
Not going out all night, etc., but leaving, as in, separation. That was what she was trying to accomplish last week/this past weekend. She got back from Colorado Tuesday night, I picked her up from the airport, we had dinner, things seemed to be going good, then she gets home and starts packing. The next morning, I told her that if she needs space, without me around, then I'd leave and she could stay. It's not out of spite I said this, but rather I was trying to show that she has a responsibility to our home and family, too. She shouldn't be able to cake eat. While I didn't use that particular term, what I conveyed was that there's no reason she should get to choose who stays and goes. I'm still a part of this M, just as much as she is right now. Regardless of how we feel about each other, we both still have responsibilities. I took over those responsibilities while she was in Colorado for close to a week, and it was her turn. She doesn't want a servant, right? How was I not justified in saying I wouldn't be that for her, and she'd still have to share responsibilities? I'm still supporting her need for space, just not in the way she's trying to have, which I would think would be important for me to do if she is possibly having an A. Am I wrong here? Also, it's something I can manage, because it's telling her that I have to take care of me, regardless of her decision about us. If I feel it's detrimental to stay here alone, why does she get to trump that? Am I not allowed to take care of myself?
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
And also, I dont really understand this boundary. Why can't you be home alone? Because youll be....too sad? I mean, why are you putting that responsibility onto her? What can you do to make your life such that your happiness doesnt require her presence? Because what youre describing does not sound healthy.
Yes, I will. But, I'll be sad anywhere, which is what I told her. Why is it unhealthy to feel sadness that my spouse is possibly rejecting me? Why is it unhealthy for me to say that being here would make me more sad than being elsewhere, and I need to take care of myself first? This is all on top of showing her that she still has responsibility to our home and family, even if she feels like she doesn't to me, and to give her a taste of what life without me is like to see if she really wants that. Again, am I wrong here? I'm not asking these questions to be flippant, so I apologize if it comes across that way... I'm genuinely asking because right now, I don't know how objective or rational I am... there's a lot of hurt that's possibly distorting my thinking.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
So you dont have money to buy a book or drive to the city, but you can find a hotel or second place to live?
GAL is SO SO SO important. For me, it was finding and making new friends that really got me out the funk that I see you in. Ive lived like that! Regaining our sense of self and self worth and self confidence is so crucial.
Honestly, I don't know what I would do. Couch surf at friends and my mom's house, I guess. Sleep at campgrounds if I had to (I have all the equipment). Even sleep in my truck, if needed. Right now, I just know that it would be unhealthy for me to be here alone.
Originally Posted by Amoafwl
Thats why I said you should make a budget. Stop looking for grand gestures and put yourself on a path to sustainable improvement. A one time infusion of cash is much less meaningful than setting up a household system for managing your money. Scrimping such that you cant buy a book seems so extreme compared to what is a healthy lifestyle. You gave up all of your hobbies - so now I imagine she feels like SHE is all you have left. And thats a lot of pressure. Even if you arent physically smothering her, your actions are showing her how vital she is to your existence. Thats got to be an uncomfortable place for her.
You showed that you are serious about change. But what kind of changes are you making? Are they helping you to reach your goal(s)........?
See my last post for answers/more explanation to the first part of this about the budget. As for the hobbies, I gave up the equipment, yes, but not the hobby. I can't afford to shoot right now, and I'm looking for a woodworking club so that tools aren't an issue. Beyond that, I'm playing guitar again (as much as I can... lost part of a fingertip almost 3 years ago), exercising, hiking, etc., to try and show her that she's not all I have.
As for changes, I'm communicating differently than I have (except when my emotions get the better of me like this morning), which is the main reason she didn't just leave when this all blew up. I'm working on being more patient, though it's a work in progress. I'm eating better, and trying new foods (a big complaint she's had, and frankly, something I've wanted to change for a long time). I'm watching less TV/YouTube and doing more around the house, beyond cleaning and cooking (fixing things I've put off, getting rid of clutter in the garage, etc.). I'm reading more, particularly books about personal growth, ranging from money to spirituality to meditation to organization. What little YouTube time I have is either meditation, personal growth or healthy relationship content (so that with her or someone else, I get a deeper understanding of what I did wrong and how to make sure I don't do it again). She isn't around while I'm watching YouTube, because honestly, I don't want her to see me going through the changes... I'd rather her see the change itself. The only other thing I can think of I could possibly be doing that I'm not is focusing on my business... I feel like focusing on it so much, for so long, is part of what got us here. I could have been focusing on healing the rift between us for the last two years instead. I don't want to get sucked down that rabbit hole again.
Again, remember the delay since my posts are being moderated....
Okay, I've read some of the responses from you all. Thank you for trying to help. It's been a little difficult to follow for me since I feel like I'm explaining some things, then see a response, only to realize that there's a delay since my posts are being moderated still. Please keep that in mind, too, when responding.
I'm going to come at this from a completely different angle.
Assume I'm a ball of clay, and you are a potter.
When she comes home tonight, what would you do? Tell her to leave if that's what she needs? Not be here and be doing something else? Just let it ride?
I truly don't feel like I'm trying to manipulate. I truly feel like I'm trying to make changes for me, not her. But many of you don't see it that way. Maybe it's because of the delay in my comments and we're all not getting a full picture. Maybe it's because I just really don't see it. But, if I'm not, I want to. I also want to apologize if I'm being boneheaded... I'm just at the end of my rope, and the top knot is on fire.
crouton, please take a deep breath and digest what everyone is telling you. These are folks that have been through it. Seen it and heard it all. Your instincts are your WORST enemy. As you read DR you will see that what you think you should do.....and what you SHOULD ACTUALLY do are not the same thing.
Snuggling in bed might work at some point, but right now your W feels smothered! Snuggling in bed with her is for YOU not her. She has expressed wanting to sleep alone. She has expressed doing a trial S. Don't push her to those because ask people here that have been through it. Pushing her to take those steps will now require that her mind change about those things before even moving toward R in other ways. So don't push her. Give her all the room in bed she wants. Give her all the space in the house she wants. Read sandi's rules please. Do not follow her around the house. Do not feel you need to be in the same room with her all the time. GIVE HER THE SPACE SHE NEEDS.
In fact, if I had to guess, she is probably about as far to the edge of the bed as she can get. AS and I refer to it as the WAS hover. It is almost as if she is levitating over the floor next to the bed she is so far over. That body language is SCREAMING at you.
As AS told you, you cannot win her over with words. You cannot talk your way out of (especially quickly) what it took years for you to ACT your way into. Common mistake we LBSs make. We think that being isolated for years can be resolved by promising to be more present. Uh uh.
I feel like you ignored cadet's thread. Please go back and do all of the home work he gave you. Your thread will lose steam very quickly if folks feel like you just came here, cut and pasted a post from another forum, and then sat back to defend the actions people are telling you to give up. We have a lot of people that want help here, if all you are going to do is defend things that aren't DBing, then you will quickly lose the support of the folks that know what they are talking about.
Remember, DBing gives you about a 50/50 chance of successfully saving your MR. In your case, with your W still in the MBR, that chance might even be higher. However, if you continue to pursue and apply pressure that chance drops precipitiously, approaching 0%.
So use an open mind. Do not trust your instincts. You have to LET HER GO to GET HER BACK. Otherwise, you might as well start planning for life after D.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Have you read the pursuit-distance materials that Cadet linked to you when you first posted? You two appear to be locked in that dynamic at this point, and you have to change that dynamic if you want any chance of saving your MR. This is why people are screaming at you to detach, let her go, etc. You're wasting valuable time arguing with people who (a) have your best interests at heart and (b) know far more about all of this than you do.
FWIW, I am very skeptical about the claim that "DBing gives you about a 50/50 chance of successfully saving your" marriage. I think this gives false hope to a very vulnerable newly-left behind population and borders on the irresponsible. What I would say instead is that DBing maximizes your (unfortunately still relatively slim) chances of R (if that ends up being what you really want) but gives you an almost 100% chance of being happy, health and fine in the long run.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
Steve85, you're right. I'm going down cheeseless tunnels in my responses. Maybe it's that I feel like I didn't explain things well enough for everyone to understand the sitch like I do, so I have to be right (when, in fact, I may not be). This is a large part of the reason I'm in my sitch. Lots of invalidating her feelings/opinions/observations/suggestions/etc.
I got through my list of goals. There are some that I don't know how to break down smaller than they are, but I also don't want to eliminate them from my list. I think I'll just have to focus on the smaller ones for now. I'm also in the position that I can't ask her about them yet. Like you said, I'm dangling by a thread. I'll have to circle back when things get better.
I'm just hitting chapter 5, so I'm going to keep reading. once I get through the book, I'm going to circle back and read Cadet's list again (I've been reading it for the last week or so, but maybe it'll make more sense/I'll get it driven through my thick skull more after finishing DR. Before I get off the computer today, I'll go through Sandi's rules again, too.
I'm so sorry, everyone. I'm just a complete mess right now.
JRuss, that's exactly where we are. She even said that the reason she went on the girls weekend is to try and give us each a chance to break that cycle, and to get to a place where she consistently wants us to reconcile and move forward together.
I thought that the last 4 days I have been doing the same, by not talk about our R, giving her space to work on a resume for a job she's chasing (that she REALLY wants, and IMO, deserves), and I haven't hovered or bugged her about it in any way. She even went so far as to promise that she'd try not to let it take too long, and then apologized when it did (in her mind, anyway... I didn't say a word about the time she was working on it).
One more thing: she actually sent me a text yesterday afternoon, asking if I wanted her to buy a deeply discounted voucher for a trip to Las Vegas that had to be used in the next 6 months. I told her that I'd love for us to go (she only asked because she knows I've always wanted to go), but financially it's probably not the best choice. She agreed, said she'd be okay if we did, but said she just wanted to ask. The point here is she's, I think, trying to plan a future together, but then incidents like this morning tear down what progress we've made.
Also, I think my comments are off of moderation (maybe?).
One of the things that's setting me off emotionally in all of this is not knowing what's on her mind, and a distinct lack of communication when I'm doing things right. I know I don't need to ask for validation or praise, so I'm not going there. If I'm doing this for me, her validation and praise don't matter.
My question is if I do something wrong, and she tells me, do I thank her for the direct, open and honest communication? Hopefully to encourage her to do it more (both for positive and negative things)?
I don't ask this because I'm seeking her praise, only to understand if doing so in both good and bad circumstances helps to soften her heart some.
crouton -- I'm far better at recognizing pursuit/distance than I ever was breaking my own version of that cycle. As you can see from my details, I never could reverse things for a meaningful amount of time and am now (happily -- after a long journey) divorced.
Right now, you're pursuing in very overt, direct ways (the ill fated snuggling attempt and her recoil, your follow up pursuit, escalation as she bears fangs to get you out of her face, etc. is almost the perfect microcosm of your current R as a whole), but you're also almost certainly transmitting a neediness that's more subtle and harder to fix. That neediness has likely been there for a long time, and its at the root of her wavering attraction, doubt and inability to visualize a happy future married to you. I'm not an absolutist when it comes to gender roles, but there seems like there is something to the notion that a heterosexual woman wants a man to "be a man", at least most of the time. If not the breadwinner who takes care of her financially, then as a happy, confident, joyful man who can take charge and pulls weight in other areas. As she hasn't gotten that, she's done the worst but most predictable thing: she's pulled back from you (distance) because that's how she learned to transmit disenchantment and that her needs aren't being met, as opposed to being able to talk to you directly about it (you likely contribute by being a poor listener). Which only increases your anxiety as she pulls away leaving you feeling increasingly abandoned, up goes the neediness quotient, your need spikes for her to show you in some way that she isn't quitting on you . . . and you have pursuit incarnate. This pursuit, in the face of her dwindling attraction, engenders more distance, as she feels "smothered", and on and on until there's no attraction at all and, importantly, no belief on her part that she could ever feel that way about you again because she can't even really remember when it wasn't so. Life's short, she tells herself; she didn't sign on for an attraction-less marriage, etc. . . . It [censored] but is a very common cause of death for relationships.
Just focus on not doing the obvious pursuit stuff for now. Get out and get a life. Be mysterious about your plans. Have a smile on your face even if you're crushed inside. Don't talk about your relationship with her AT ALL. DON'T TALK ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP AT ALL -- very important. Don't ask her if you're doing better, improving, etc. If you do this consistently, the other, more subtle stuff hopefully stops being as prevalent over time. She gets the space she's asked for and maybe doesn't like it as much as she thought and maybe pursues you. That's when you'll really have to work hard not to pursue again. But that's putting the ox before the cart.
Maybe just try to put one good day of not pursuing together today, then another. Take it slow. Don't beat yourself up if you falter (you probably will). See where the journey takes you. What you want is a relationship that doesn't revert to this dynamic, so know that what you're trying to do is hard and takes time because it's very deeply ingrained and part and parcel of how you two interact at this point. Remember back to when you first met each other. Guaranteed you weren't needy and didn't pursue in an unhealthy way. That's where you want to get back to, only wiser now with age and experience.
Everyone here is pulling for you.
Me: 46 W: 44 Married: 17 Together 21 D13; S10 BD: 03.03.15 (Not attracted to you) Almost 2 years trying, alone, to save marriage Status now: Divorced (effective 06.13.17)
I made it up to step 6 in DR. I guess now it's a waiting game, and seeing how what I do has an effect.
Tonight has been good so far. She sent be a text that she was in the way home from work, then called about 30 minutes later. We had good, light conversation about our days. I made one of our favorite standby meals for dinner, and she seemed thankful for that. She actually suggested that we watch a show while we ate, and she even chose to sit next to me on the couch while we did, even though she had her pick of the couch, love seat and chair to sit in. The point being, she chose to be closer to me than she had to. I'm going to take that as a good sign and baby step. She's currently working in the resume I mentioned earlier, and I told her to take all the time she needed when she said she'd try not to let it take too long again. As soon as I'm done here, I've got my guitar next to me, and will be headed to the back porch to enjoy the evening, and do some picking (just have to fight the mosquitoes).
