Changes

[kml]

See? He came through totally appropriately. He is interested. Just let him take the lead.

actually said "You aren't going to make me beg for a second date, right?" I should have said "yup", haha.

Yes! Playfulness like this is attractive! Guys like the chase so long as you're being playful about it. Use this line next time.

Btw - some people are texters and some not. I'm very busy at work and just don't have that much time to text - plus it could be a couple hours between a text and my response.

[DonH]

Here's my take - add and mix in with the others...

You've pretty much been doing the same thing, pretty much the same way (when you are really into the guy) and getting the same results. So in this I know we agree. Right? And how has that been working out for you? Again we agree. Right? So it's then a no brainer that if you keep doing the same things, you are going to keep getting the same things. Can we still agree?

You darn right you should have told him he was going to need to beg for a second date - even if you did it in a fun, suggestive manner. Call it a "game" I guess but it's no more a "game" than the LRT or 180s or acting as if or any of the other "plays" from the MWD "playbook."

I'm headed to my thread to relay my surprise to my third date with wild girl. I will be beyond floored if she does an about face on me, but I'll tell you, multiple times while we were together she dropped comments as if to say I'm going to need to beg her - well perhaps not beg - but she's not just assuming another date. For example, I'm betting I could have gotten her to stay over a second night (read my thread) yet when I told her, after she had left, that I was restocking my fridge with her fav beverage, she said "no rush." Oh really, Don thinks, after being in the mindset that it would be sooner rather than later when we'd need them. She nicely changed that dynamic and did it several times. In fact, we have no firm plans to do anything next, yet both of us assume that will happen - but are not blowing each others phone's up making it happen.

People that are too available just come off as either needy or not having any life. It's way easier when that's really the case - ie after having lots of time, I'm slammed this week through Sunday and still am getting requests to do things (not all dates, just "things"). I'm authentically busy which is much more interesting than - "I'm open any day or night this week, what do you want to do?"

In the moment, both men and women can get caught up. It's when that moment has passed that more rational thinking takes over and too much too soon becomes a real turn off. Then there is this, and not all guys do this on purpose or as players (clearly some do but not all) and after you sleep with us, we often move on. A good friend, drummer in a band I was in for a long time, used to always say "why do you want to climb the same mountain twice?" Clearly he WAS a player but you still get the point. You'll do much better by "fooling around," even naked, than having full on sex early on. They will clearly come back for more and earn it if you make them, but will just as clearly take it and move on if allowed to.

I think maybe the best advice I can give you right now and this will go to most everything is whatever time frame you think is appropriate, TRIPLE IT!!!! If you think he should have texted in a day - tipple it before getting concerned. If you think you are done waiting and are about to say "goodbye and good luck" after 5 days, wait about two weeks. If you think you should sleep with him on the second date - wait until the fifth or sixth. I am dead serious on all of this and anything else time-based. It's just you. Someone else's 5 days is like 1 or 2 days to you.

I'd also suggest you strongly listen to what KML is telling you. You are getting the female side from someone who has lived it and thinks she was much like you when she was your age. I think she is spot on.

This is your time to shine and not make the same moves you've made over the last couple years. Doing what feels wrong to you is likely what you need to do - it's just like DBing!!!!

[Dawgs]

I can tell you as a guy it is a fine balance to pursue but also not seem needy. All the self help books you read tell the guy to wait several days before making a second date and don't over pursue the ladies by blowing up their phone and getting to know them that way.

If you want someone, tell them. Games are for kids, no?

[Zues126]

If you want someone, tell them. Games are for kids, no?

I agree with this 100%.

To those that say 'everyone plays games' I would point out that many people don't, and many people find it extremely distasteful. In some ways you get to decide if you want to play games and attract a game player, or not play games and attract someone that appreciates the sincerity. I wouldn't do well with anyone trying to modify their normal behavior to create a pursuit dynamic. People that think that way wouldn't be a good fit.

I guess I'm not particularly impressed with peacocking or tingly feelings. I look at relationships as climbing a mountain. When you climb a mountain you are going to have your life in their hands and visa versa. It's going to be a serious expedition. Are you going to choose your partner based on how skinny or tall they are? Whether they have a teasing manner that allows you to simulate overcoming rejecting to mitigate some self esteem issues? Or are you going to partner with someone that knows how testing it will be to scale a mountain and who you can depend on with your life?

Don, I appreciate your thoughts. Personally I'm not sure about the 'if you keep doing the same thing you'll get the same results'. That's a nice phrase that is often applicable, but it doesn't apply to every situation. In sales if I fail to close a few deals in a row that doesn't mean I change my entire process and start playing games with customers. It means that it's a numbers game and even a solid approach will only lead to a 20-40% closing rate. With dating I don't think there's a way to guarantee a lifelong partnership on a first date, so just because she's met a few people that don't appreciate her doesn't mean she's going about things totally wrong. And I don't think of DBing as game playing at all, 180s are for us to be better people, LTR is all about detaching for ourselves, and stopping the damage we are causing to ourselves. GAL is for us. Sure, there is an awareness of interpersonal dynamics, but I don't think of that as game playing. To me games are more manipulative and insincere. DBing is about becoming a better person and then sincerely being different.

[Dawgs]

you should have told him he was going to need to beg for a second date

There is nothing more unattractive than having to beg.

[DonH]

you should have told him he was going to need to beg for a second date

There is nothing more unattractive than having to beg.

Oh good, Jeep's back. Literal much? Because yes, KML and I were suggesting that Ginger demand he get down on his hands and knees, kiss her feet and beg for the opportunity to be in her presence again. That, of course, would be unattractive. Said correctly, it would be fun and flirty and appealing... very likely build attraction.

[kml]

I don't think it's playing games to just cool your jets a little and avoid coming off as needy or pushy. Remember, I'm BAD at playing games - but once I was genuinely too busy, or if I'm not actually that interested, it's AMAZING how that usually INCREASES interest on the part of my date.

And one good way NOT to come off as too needy for a woman is to take things a little bit slow. (I don't always follow my own advice on that but I'm tough enough to take the consequences when it doesn't turn out lol. And I don't expect that to be a good approach if I'm hoping for a long term relationship with someone rather than just a fun time.)

[Cadet]

you should have told him he was going to need to beg for a second date

There is nothing more unattractive than having to beg.

Oh good, Jeeps back. Literal much? Because yes, KML and I were suggesting that Ginger demand he get down on his hands and knees, kiss her feet and beg for the opportunity to be in her presence again. That, of course, would be unattractive. Said correctly, it would be fun and flirty and appealing. very likely build attraction.

Quite possible. And yes, Im back for now. I wanted to pop in and tell doodler about the impending next step in mine and HQs relationship marriage .

Now back to chasing, if its seductive and admitted to be a joke, then yeah its all good and fun. However, women who make men chase them for their attention are the masters of the game players and quite frankly, attention hos to put it mildly.

In all fun, yeah as part of their norm, no and I say no because no one should have to fight attention.

[job]

Thanks Cadet!

Negan,

Please refrain from using special characters in your postings. The system is having some issues and special characters tend to trigger disappearing postings. You can read more about this glitch at the top of the forum and Cadet has a nice thread link within my thread advising posters of the glitch.

[Ginger1]

Wow.

I have been busy all day trying to explain to a husband that his wife is dying and he is being selfish and torturing her by not letting her go (not in that way, I assure you) often in my job, I am psychologist, mediator, truth breaker, and it gets emotionally exhausting. I am also probably the most qualified one ot have this discussion as a former ICU and Hospice nurse. These people are physiatrists and rehab specialists where people get better. I then went and burned some of my stress off at the gym.

Anyways.... I have been taking in the wonderful discussion my dating life seems to be sparking. I have to say I agree with both sides. I don't like the game, I like be straight forward, I like making my needs and wants clear, but I also understand the pursuer/distancer dynamic. I try to make the right balance.


However, in between work and the gym, my cousin texted me telling me she heard from him. He said some nice things about me, that he does want to see me again, but said he is not ready for a full on relationship and wants something nice and easy. He is open to it in the future, but to take things very slowly. I am not supposed to know he said this, and she encouraged him to be honest with me directly.

So that got me thinking about what he said and what you guys said. I distinctly retraced all interactions to see if I even gave a small hint of wanting something big right away, or seeming needy or desperate. Not a One! I have not been doing anything wrong, there is nothing I would change, that's why I don't change anything. Even though I keep getting the same results, I really don't think it is me.


I was flirty and fun, and I follow the lead of my date. I read their cues. Men do send mixed signals, I'll tell you that much. I gave nothing to indicate that I am looking for anything fast.

I do think this really does have to do with him and not anything I did. he just got out of a marriage. This was actually something I was concerned about going on this date (my gut is always right, I am very intuitive)


I have to decide how I am going to proceed. The truth is, I am looking for slow, fun and easy. Someone to go out with, share interests with and have fun with. Who I happen to be attracted to. But eventually I do want it to become a partnership. If there is no end game and he is like "no R at all" then there is no point of me going on. But he is open to it.

What does full blown R mean anyways that he is fearing? A demanding woman who wants all his time? because that isn't me. I have a job, I am raising a daughter by myself and I have friends. DO I like common courtesy's that my friends and I even have with eachtoher? Yes. My friends and I stay in touch, ask how we are doing, make plans, sometimes last minute, sometimes planned. DO I want to be someone's last minute time filler? No.

It is what I want, and who I am. I have pretzeled myself only to what a person is willing to give me and I don't think that's fair. But I am not pushing for anything, and I don't think I gave off any vibe that I was. Him moreso than I if any.

Maybe having feelings scared him. I dunno. But I really couldn't change much about how I interact with guys that wouldn't be true to myself. I think maybe I just haven't met my match on that page.

See, I AM a woman who knows her worth and isn't confused. I know what I want for myself, I know I don't need to get there fast. I know I really enjoy just dating. But when guys come off all worried and warning about relationships, that is kind of a turn off for ME.

So, my plan. Go on tomorrow's night date. Be cool, see how the conversation goes. If we decide to just date, then so be it. If I find my needs aren't being fulfilled, I will end it myself. I will go to Mexico, have a good time with friends, and not contact him.

I just realize I don't really don't need to change the core of who I am. It just might be harder to be find someone who is comfortable with me being comfortable knowing what I want and being comfortable with where I am at in life.

And that will most likely be the person for me. No matter how long it takes for him to find me.