Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

You seemed confused after reading Stosny's book. You come back talking about compassion, resentment, etc. Do you see yourself being in an emotional abusive MR?I'm just trying to see where your head is, after coming back home.

Ah, I understand. The confusion is in my perspective of my W. I am stuck between feeling compassion for her as an inherently good human being vs. feeling negatively toward her and thinking she isn't good enough for me (or however you want to phrase it). A huge part of Stonsy's book is an explanation of the selfish, resentful behavior of your spouse, but he is still painting them as if their "core self" is "good". His whole goal is basically to develop compassion, which he claims is the only antidote to resentment. The problem is for nice guys like me, this is already sort of our default mindset and does not help make us less "soft".

Let's get one thing straight. Replacing compassion with resentment is not advised. Resentment is never healthy!

Right. Logically I completely know this.

I often talk tough and straight to a H that wants to remain in his state of passivity. The nice guy will be drawn to the type of books that talk about showing loving tenderness, compassion, understanding, cooperation, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with any of those things.......when implemented in the right time & place. The problem here is that you have a wife with a wayward mindset. She abuses your tenderness, goodness, compassion, etc.

I understand exactly what you're saying.

You want to make excuses for her. Partly, b/c you love her, and partly b/c you think you can work around the controlling, manipulative relationship.......if you show her how much you are committed; how deeply you care about her; show her the attention she craves; manage to have time to GAL while she's at work; and hope to God she'll change......maybe a miracle will come.

(I have to move from the IPad to my computer, so I'll be right back).

You describe PERFECTLY the default NGS "plan"...and hoping for that miracle. I don't know why it's so darn hard to let go of those ideas. Especially when living together, you get forced to make this choice 100x per day.

[sandi2]

But a lot of times when I try to implement advice I receive here it feels like I should be having "harder" feelings toward her and encouraging my anger.

Do you have to muster up harder feelings for her in order for you to implement some of the advice? I'm sure it must feel very uncomfortable and perhaps unnatural, b/c you seem to be a gentle person. You have been in a very manipulative relationship for a long time, and it must cause you to question your feelings a lot.

To be clear, I don't want you to harbor hard feelings for your W. Those type of feelings will result in you becoming a WAH. If your goal is to have a healthy MR, then don't swap the positive feelings for negative ones. Make sense?

I felt the vacation trip was much, much too soon following the events in your sitch. But I knew you were going and nothing I said was going to prevent it. During that time, you lost touch with your support system, and it probably set you back. She is contacting the OM, manipulating you, etc. If you called her hand on anything.....I didn't catch it in your posts. I understand not wanting to "ruin" the trip, as you probably thought you'd be doing......so now you are pretty much back to the starting line again (with her). I believe once you can grasp the correct concept of how you should feel vs the actions to show, you'll be okay.

You love this woman with all your heart. As long as she is respecting you and the MR, then by all means.....show all those warm, tender, affectionate actions that are bursting to get out. She will see, "When I respect my H, I get wonderful acts of love in return".

What happens if she doesn't respect you? What happens if the lines become a bit blurred for you and you aren't sure if it is disrespect.....but it seems she takes advantage of you, likes to dictate what you do, reacts petty when you do something for yourself, etc. If you continue with the warm affection or subservient behavior, she'll think, "Hummm, I get his wonderful acts of love regardless of how badly I treat him. My sex desire for him is gone. He is not what I admire in a man. I can treat him anyway I want, and get the same results".

You'll lose her positive feelings, if she can manipulate or boss you and still get the warm, fuzzy actions from you. Does your love stop? No, but you have self-respect and your values of how others treat come into play. When you refuse to succumb to her bossiness, or comfort her pettiness, or be understanding of her cheating behavior, or give physical affection when she belittles you....then she sees, "44 is stronger than I gave him credit. I admire him for not taking any of my cr@p behavior. I miss him spending time with me, and I miss the affection he once gave. I miss the closeness we once had. I want to treat him better, or I might lose him completely".

That's kind of the way it is in a nutshell. Of course, it's not as easy and quick as this sounded, b/c a bad situation has been created, and she feels in total power over you. She is not going to give up that sense of power easily. You have been in a subservient mode for so long that it may take a professional therapist to help you get out, IDK. I do think you have blurred the lines between feeling one emotion and doing another action. If we all based our actions on our feelings, the world would be more messed up than it already is. We base our actions on our values.

I don't know how to internalize the fact that I'm done putting up with her and will be better off without her, without also abandoning the belief that she is a decent human being. I don't know if that makes any sense at all or answers your question.

It makes sense, but I'm telling you it doesn't have to be that way. I wish I knew how to tell you that you don't have to think of her in derogatory terms, in order to stand up yourself. We teach people how to treat us. If I tell you that the only thing a WW respects is strength, then tell me why it is so difficult for you to show that strength to your W? What do you see in your mind when you think of a man of strength dealing with a wayward W? I'm just curious to know.

I so hope that you have not developed the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse. If you haven't, there's a good chance that you will, continuing to subject yourself to this type of treatment. Can you see how you make excuses for her, try to blame yourself, find reasons to believe it's not as bad as it may sound to others, etc. What led you to read Stosny's book? Nobody on the board is going to blame you or find fault if you feel abused. If you do, then I suggest you get professional help with it. By that, I'm not trying to get rid of you or anything. I'm trying to get to the heart of what's really going on with you.

[44tries]

Do you have to muster up harder feelings for her in order for you to implement some of the advice? I'm sure it must feel very uncomfortable and perhaps unnatural, b/c you seem to be a gentle person. You have been in a very manipulative relationship for a long time, and it must cause you to question your feelings a lot.

I wouldn't say I have to, because I am logical enough that just knowing it is the "right" thing to do can push me to do it. But it certainly becomes a lot easier in moments where I can get myself to feel angry or know she literally just sent a text to OM, or whatever. You are spot on, Sandi, I do question my feelings a lot. I only ever had good intentions and wanted to be the best, loving H I could be, but I can see now how everything became about her and she became manipulative and power hungry. I simply never considered she could be so selfish and therefore I was blind.

To be clear, I don't want you to harbor hard feelings for your W. Those type of feelings will result in you becoming a WAH. If your goal is to have a healthy MR, then don't swap the positive feelings for negative ones. Make sense?

I understand, and this is exactly what I was referring to in my previous post. Hearing all the advice telling me to just drop her, walk away, etc feels like it is encouraging me to have the feelings of a WAH. I know that those negative feelings are not required to be able to walk away, but again they make it a whole lot easier. However, even Stosny talks in his book about how sometimes the most compassionate thing you can do is let them go. So, it doesn't have to be out of bitterness. I just don't know how to heal the longing feeling of still loving someone if you let them go out of compassion.

I felt the vacation trip was much, much too soon following the events in your sitch. But I knew you were going and nothing I said was going to prevent it. During that time, you lost touch with your support system, and it probably set you back. She is contacting the OM, manipulating you, etc. If you called her hand on anything.....I didn't catch it in your posts. I understand not wanting to "ruin" the trip, as you probably thought you'd be doing......so now you are pretty much back to the starting line again (with her). I believe once you can grasp the correct concept of how you should feel vs the actions to show, you'll be okay.

I don't disagree with you one bit. I do think it set me back. I would definitely not have initiated the trip at this time, but she did and perhaps I wasn't strong enough to turn her down. It didn't help that I wanted to go on the trip regardless of anything to do with W. I did not call her out until that last day of the trip, when my anger did boil over and I simply told her I had had enough of her shadiness and she shouldn't assume I would want to be friends much less family in the future as she seems to somehow think this is still possible. The problem, I know, is that my actions do not back this up when we are right back to being friendly the next week. This is why I still don't quite know how to not be "all or nothing". How do I show I want nothing to do with her during times she is disrespectful, but be fine when she is friendly and we have fun? It feels like everyday I wake up and have to decide "should I detach and do my own thing today/borderline ignore W or accept her invitation to come to her work or go to dinner, etc?" I desperately want to grasp the correct concept and feel very frustrated with myself that I have not fully done so already.

You love this woman with all your heart. As long as she is respecting you and the MR, then by all means.....show all those warm, tender, affectionate actions that are bursting to get out. She will see, "When I respect my H, I get wonderful acts of love in return".

This is partly what I'm unclear on...she can't be respecting me and the MR at any time right now, right? I feel like I'm running hot, then cold all the time in response to her moods, which is the opposite of detachment. Like today she was totally nice and friendly, wanting to plan workouts with me, play video games, go to dinner, etc. Do I engage or not? Doesn't it undermine my withdrawal tomorrow when she will inevitably start getting jealous and petty because I'm going to a birthday party on Friday?

What happens if she doesn't respect you? What happens if the lines become a bit blurred for you and you aren't sure if it is disrespect.....but it seems she takes advantage of you, likes to dictate what you do, reacts petty when you do something for yourself, etc. If you continue with the warm affection or subservient behavior, she'll think, "Hummm, I get his wonderful acts of love regardless of how badly I treat him. My sex desire for him is gone. He is not what I admire in a man. I can treat him anyway I want, and get the same results".

You'll lose her positive feelings, if she can manipulate or boss you and still get the warm, fuzzy actions from you. Does your love stop? No, but you have self-respect and your values of how others treat come into play. When you refuse to succumb to her bossiness, or comfort her pettiness, or be understanding of her cheating behavior, or give physical affection when she belittles you....then she sees, "44 is stronger than I gave him credit. I admire him for not taking any of my cr@p behavior. I miss him spending time with me, and I miss the affection he once gave. I miss the closeness we once had. I want to treat him better, or I might lose him completely".

That's kind of the way it is in a nutshell. Of course, it's not as easy and quick as this sounded, b/c a bad situation has been created, and she feels in total power over you. She is not going to give up that sense of power easily. You have been in a subservient mode for so long that it may take a professional therapist to help you get out, IDK. I do think you have blurred the lines between feeling one emotion and doing another action. If we all based our actions on our feelings, the world would be more messed up than it already is. We base our actions on our values.

This makes complete sense. Again, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to be responding differently now depending on how she treats me day to day or if I should just be viewing her as perpetually disrespectful right now. I understand your point on feeling one thing and acting another way, based on values. I can do that; I don't need to "feel" it to act on it if I know it's right. The problem is being confident in every little scenario about what is the "right" way to act. Like you said I am so out of practice, it's like building this muscle up after years of being in a cast.

It makes sense, but I'm telling you it doesn't have to be that way. I wish I knew how to tell you that you don't have to think of her in derogatory terms, in order to stand up yourself. We teach people how to treat us. If I tell you that the only thing a WW respects is strength, then tell me why it is so difficult for you to show that strength to your W? What do you see in your mind when you think of a man of strength dealing with a wayward W? I'm just curious to know.

It is not because I don't want to or am not willing, but because I lost my "natural" ability to do it. Like you mentioned earlier, it is not comfortable and I question myself constantly. I know I can do it, I just need to keep putting in the work and make sure I am not doing the two steps forward, one step back dance all the time. To answer your last question, I see a man who is intolerant. I think of all the guys on here who talk about showing your W the door and not caring about losing her because there are so many better things in life to fill your time with than a WW. Outside of no longer giving her the time of day at all, I can see strong responses to individual acts of disrespect. Like all the dialogues you have written to me as responses to her manipulation and selfishness. Those are strong. But I draw a blank when it comes to "normal" daily interaction.

I so hope that you have not developed the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse. If you haven't, there's a good chance that you will, continuing to subject yourself to this type of treatment. Can you see how you make excuses for her, try to blame yourself, find reasons to believe it's not as bad as it may sound to others, etc. What led you to read Stosny's book? Nobody on the board is going to blame you or find fault if you feel abused. If you do, then I suggest you get professional help with it. By that, I'm not trying to get rid of you or anything. I'm trying to get to the heart of what's really going on with you.

I'm not sure what the mindset of an emotionally abused spouse looks like, exactly. But I hope I have not developed it either. I would not argue with you if you told me my W was emotionally abusive. In fact, she was worse in the past. There was a time when she was verbally uninhibited and if she had not recognized it, apologized, and changed, we probably would not be having this conversation right now. I do see how quickly I make excuses for her or blame myself. I think of the very first post I wrote here (and I see a lot of NGs with WW post the same stuff at the beginning, desperately trying to find all the ways they failed), but now I have removed most of the blame. I know I am flawed and contributed to the problems, but I know now that all the little things I came up with at the beginning are not the real reasons for the breakdown. My main fault was allowing the dynamics to become what they are.

I was led to read Stosny's book because I was looking for more material on how to respond to a W filled with resentment. Of course, the main "action" part of his book (the one I read anyway) is actually written for the resentful spouse. I did gain insight on the importance of GAL, however, along with some interesting thoughts on boundaries (he talks about how they are not drawing lines in the sand or really anything outside of yourself; rather, when you are in touch with your core self and values, the boundaries come naturally and are a part of you). I don't really know how to answer if I "feel" abused. I have always had a very healthy self esteem; I do not tend to internalize blame or allow others to make me feel bad about myself. There have been times when I have realized how my W has damaged my self esteem. I can easily see how a more vulnerable person in my position could have been made to feel quite low. But I think I have known all along what my true worth is and that it's my W's problem, not mine. I have sort of the opposite problem to hers; she detests vulnerability whereas I give too much of myself too freely. I may think I am giving without needing anything in return, but my self discovery in recovering from NGS told me I in fact needed more than I thought.

[sandi2]

It didn't go as well as I'd hoped. As I kind of expected, she didn't initiate the conversation. I let her settle in and eat and then I initiated, leading with the boundary talk. That went over fine and she mostly agreed. She cried and said she knew she was a "bully" (her words). She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

Frankly, it all went fine except for the part where it came to willingness. She couldn't tell me she wanted to go all in to try to save the MR. She said she felt like I was giving an ultimatum. She said she didn't know if things could be fixed. Yes, it sounds great to start fresh, but you can't just shove all the old stuff out the door. She is very afraid of going back to the same old cycle and being stuck in an unhappy MR. I made it clear the old MR was dead and I didn't want that back either. She just didn't get how we could build something new on top of rubble. She talked about how she didn't know if she could just get rid of all her resentment, she can't control her feelings.

I don't think she thinks it is possible to regain attraction and feelings. She cried and cried, went on about how she didn't know how to let go and was really struggling with the idea of divorce. I told her there were no promises or expectations, she just needed to be willing to try. I really don't understand why she can't do that. She claims she doesn't want to prolong a bad thing, but then says she struggles with divorce and wasn't rushing to go that route. She basically admitted that she doesn't want to lose my friendship and companionship. I told her I can't just give her the parts she wants and forget the rest. She said she feels she has lost all her independence and we had codependency issues and she doesn't even know who she is. She doesn't see a way to take a hard detour and get back from the wrong road we went down for so long (her words). She just feels something is missing. She craves intimacy and connection and doesn't see how it can be with me.

I copied part of the account of the confrontation when she had returned from her military trip. Did you state any boundaries to her? This part is the closet thing I could find that appeared as an agreement: She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

She agreed you were right, but did she agree to stop her bullying and disrespectful treatment? Did she agree to NC with OM? You say she had no problem with it, so I assumed she agreed to it. But, she has not lived up to it. In that conversation, did you say there would be any consequences if she continued to contact OM? I just need to know where you stand now.

Back to your initial thread after returning from the vacation, you said:

There were a few hiccups...one instance she went full "bully" mode and said some very hurtful things, which she did apologize for but I don't think it was wholehearted. It's interesting she tries to use our ending MR as a threat, despite already having played that card.

Of course it wasn't wholehearted! It was to put you in a holding pattern.

How would you act toward her after she apologized? How did you respond when she would threaten to end the MR?

She knows exactly where it hurts, but at this point all I think is...she is only undermining herself and her previous threats.

Your thinking seems to be more of a coping strategy when she bullies you. This goes back to what I was trying to tell you yesterday. You are trying to work around the main issues of her bullying by thinking she is undermining herself. So what if she is undermining herself? She doesn't see it. She only sees a H who will not stand up to her bullying him. Telling her she is being rude, or that she owes you an apology is not strong enough. You can word it differently, and may have a little affect the first couple of times, but eventually you are going to need to deal with it by using actions.

We went to a theme park and from the very beginning, she was texting excessively. Background/update: I know she has contact with OM. 100% confirmed, but it isn't obsessive like before and I have no knowledge of the content of the messages. However, she is shady and secretive to the hilt.

In other words, she is not honoring any type of transparency, and you aren't holding her to it. Look 44, it makes absolutely no difference the content of her messages with OM....or how many times she contacts him. She is hiding her texts, and she's contacting him, which violates transparency.

She will verbally tell me to give her physical space while she is on her phone and accuse me of spying or watching her. Has changed her password, hides her phone while showering, covers it while typing if I am within view, etc.

This is not acceptable. The cheater does not get to do these things and continue on in the MR.....unless you are okay with having an open MR.

Anyway, at the theme park, my patience wore thin and I asked her if she was going to text all day (I know, bad move).

Yes, it was a bad move. Stop asking her questions like this, and start telling her if she is going to text all day, it will be without your company.....and you leave her there and go on with your day in the park, totally ignoring her for the rest of the day.

She gave some ridiculous speech about how she is an adult and it isn't rude, look at everyone else on their phones, back off, blah blah. So I did,

See how you are trying to make it sound "ridiculous"? This is part of your coping mechanism.

In the end, you backed off just as she told you, but you did not leave her. You would see that action being too rude. So, you continue to endure the disrespect.

then she accused me of sucking the fun out of the day and that I had ruined it.

Now this is her being manipulative. She can accuse you or twist things around to put the blame on you....make you feel guilty, and she knows you will bend over backward to retreat to your nice-guy ways. Remember, I said she will use the guilt card? This is an example of how she uses it to control you.

She says maybe she will "hit me up" when they go and I can join so I can "still be a part of their lives". I KNOW to ignore all of these nonsensical comments she makes,

This is another example of your coping mech. See how you refer to it as nonsensical comments? It was a continuation of her bullying tactics. She pulled the threat card to remind you she was the one in control of this MR. You try to brush it off and tell yourself it was just nonsensical comments. She knew full well she jabbed you with that comment. It had a purpose, and it was intentional.

I couldn't hold back when she called me shady. I basically told her what makes her assume I would want to go to DL or even be friends with her when in fact she is the one who is shady as he11. I told her I know she is still in contact with OM, has continued to lie and be completely insensitive and unapologetic.

44, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. This is all I have to use to illustrate. What you said to her is true. But it sounds weak. It sounds as if you are more upset that she has been insensitive and unapologetic, than the fact she is being secretive and engaging in an EA with OM. Let me put it this way. It is not about her having good manners. It is about her cheating. She doesn't get to text OM, and then just apologize for it.

I have noticed when you try to stand up to her, you use the "rude" word a lot. "Rude" and "apologize". These two words mean nothing to a WW. She is calloused. She is not sensitive to your feelings. You are expecting a bully to be sensitive and mannerly? I strongly suggest that you temporarily remove these two words from your vocabulary when speaking with her. They don't seem to be very effective.

Of course, she got very defensive saying things like I am assuming and it's not what I think, etc.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

Yesterday she moped around the house, surprisingly wasn't rude to me but so over-the-top with her pouting. She actually got a deck of cards out to play solitaire in the living room.

And what is your go-to plan when she pouts and has a pity party b/c you left the house to do something with some friends the day before? This is another form of her playing the guilt card. She wanted to make you feel badly.

I really struggle with the fact that she resents me and has so much hurt, because I know I am not perfect and have probably done some very hurtful things, but I feel with her being wayward I am not supposed to have remorse or apologize for anything.

This resentment of hers does not necessarily mean it is merited. You don't even know what she wanted or what you did to make her resentful. The resentment/disrespect factors become enmeshed after a point. Just b/c a W is resentful, does not mean the H is guilty of anything. Please get that in your head.

Here's the thing I see in you. You are trying to change positions and put yourself in the role as abuser. For you, it would be so much easier if you could be the one at fault, b/c you would have no problem with remorse and apologizing for doing whatever. You want to take the place of the bad guy. If you were the abuser, and she was wanting out of that situation, then she would be a walk-away W. She is clearly not a WAW. Sorry, but you just aren't the bad guy in this case. You are too nice, too gentle, and too passive for this military WW. She likes to control you, and she'll stoop to whatever level necessary to do it.

I understand I need to regain her respect which may breed attraction, but how will that wash away her resentment when I have not sincerely owned my mistakes and given her a formal apology? The book describes how compassion is the only antidote; I am trying to find that balance of being compassionate toward her but also intolerant to her disrespect. It is tricky!

The book is not about wayward wives! Please, just put it down b/c it is scr@wing with your head. You are not an abuser! She has a wayward mindset. You cannot apologize away that waywardness. Do you get that? You still want to use a form of nicing her back by being sweet, understanding, compassionate, etc. Those are wonderful traits in a MR.....but it just won't cut it with a WW.

Actually, I think it was the talk we had when she came home that really set me back.

No, that's not what set you back. Not following through with actions, set you back.

[44tries]

I copied part of the account of the confrontation when she had returned from her military trip. Did you state any boundaries to her? This part is the closet thing I could find that appeared as an agreement: She agreed I was right to ask for no further disrespect and that it can't continue. Also, she had no problem with no private inappropriate relationships.

She agreed you were right, but did she agree to stop her bullying and disrespectful treatment? Did she agree to NC with OM? You say she had no problem with it, so I assumed she agreed to it. But, she has not lived up to it. In that conversation, did you say there would be any consequences if she continued to contact OM? I just need to know where you stand now.

The two boundaries I stated were the ones we had discussed--respect and transparency. The problem is that without her recommittal I don't really have the ability to enforce them since they were originally framed as requirements for a recommitted relationship going forward. She agreed to stop the disrespect and this I can (and am) enforce(ing). It still happens, but I am way past the jumping when she says frog stuff. The transparency is more of an issue because she claims she is transparent! And then turns it around on me to claim I am not. I don't know how to enforce this boundary because if she wants to be non-transparent, she will be, plain and simple. My internal response to this crossed boundary is what is actually driving me toward wanting nothing to do with her.

Back to your initial thread after returning from the vacation, you said:
How would you act toward her after she apologized? How did you respond when she would threaten to end the MR?

Passive, which is a problem. I acknowledged the apology in the briefest way possible and didn't change my mood. Threats to end the MR I just straight up ignore because they are outside of my limit of rationality. I would love to hear your thoughts on having stronger responses, because I feel if I actually open my mouth it just turns into a nasty argument. I need to break that same old dance cycle where I argue logically against her manipulative antics. I need to feel confident I can quickly defuse it and walk away the "winner" of the clash.

Your thinking seems to be more of a coping strategy when she bullies you. This goes back to what I was trying to tell you yesterday. You are trying to work around the main issues of her bullying by thinking she is undermining herself. So what if she is undermining herself? She doesn't see it. She only sees a H who will not stand up to her bullying him. Telling her she is being rude, or that she owes you an apology is not strong enough. You can word it differently, and may have a little affect the first couple of times, but eventually you are going to need to deal with it by using actions.

I completely understand. I am trying to get a better grasp on what those actions should be so I have them coming as second-nature.

In other words, she is not honoring any type of transparency, and you aren't holding her to it. Look 44, it makes absolutely no difference the content of her messages with OM....or how many times she contacts him. She is hiding her texts, and she's contacting him, which violates transparency.

100%. But she will deny she sees it that way.

This is not acceptable. The cheater does not get to do these things and continue on in the MR.....unless you are okay with having an open MR.

The issue is she isn't continuing on in the MR. So she thinks she has licensed herself. What do I do? Tell her her license is phony?

See how you are trying to make it sound "ridiculous"? This is part of your coping mechanism.

This is insightful.

Now this is her being manipulative. She can accuse you or twist things around to put the blame on you....make you feel guilty, and she knows you will bend over backward to retreat to your nice-guy ways. Remember, I said she will use the guilt card? This is an example of how she uses it to control you.

Got it. I see it clearly and recognized it at the time. She can no longer get me to chase at all by trying to blame me, and she's getting frustrated. Has been testing me over and over on it the past couple days.

This is another example of your coping mech. See how you refer to it as nonsensical comments? It was a continuation of her bullying tactics. She pulled the threat card to remind you she was the one in control of this MR. You try to brush it off and tell yourself it was just nonsensical comments. She knew full well she jabbed you with that comment. It had a purpose, and it was intentional.

Again, insightful. Exactly what I needed to hear, thanks.

44, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. This is all I have to use to illustrate. What you said to her is true. But it sounds weak. It sounds as if you are more upset that she has been insensitive and unapologetic, than the fact she is being secretive and engaging in an EA with OM. Let me put it this way. It is not about her having good manners. It is about her cheating. She doesn't get to text OM, and then just apologize for it.

Don't worry, I know. I see the problem, I'm still working on figuring out how to fix it. I can't be too direct or it's weak, and that's where I struggle. My default is to just always be direct and honest, and it really fails here.

I have noticed when you try to stand up to her, you use the "rude" word a lot. "Rude" and "apologize". These two words mean nothing to a WW. She is calloused. She is not sensitive to your feelings. You are expecting a bully to be sensitive and mannerly? I strongly suggest that you temporarily remove these two words from your vocabulary when speaking with her. They don't seem to be very effective.

This is really good advice, thanks. Cheeseless tunnel, for sure.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

So what do I do when she squirms and deflects and denies? She will just fight me to the death and I don't know how to respond to that.

And what is your go-to plan when she pouts and has a pity party b/c you left the house to do something with some friends the day before? This is another form of her playing the guilt card. She wanted to make you feel badly.

That's exactly what she wanted and she can't do it anymore because I see through it. My go-to plan is to completely ignore it, if she is doing the passive-aggressive pouting like playing solitaire. If she comes at me with accusations, I say something polite and diplomatic that essentially says, "I'm not having this conversation." If she continues to push, I become angrier and less polite, and try to figure out how to tell her she's insane without saying those words. Please tell me how I can improve these responses.

This resentment of hers does not necessarily mean it is merited. You don't even know what she wanted or what you did to make her resentful. The resentment/disrespect factors become enmeshed after a point. Just b/c a W is resentful, does not mean the H is guilty of anything. Please get that in your head.

^^^^^^THIS is incredibly helpful, thank you.

Here's the thing I see in you. You are trying to change positions and put yourself in the role as abuser. For you, it would be so much easier if you could be the one at fault, b/c you would have no problem with remorse and apologizing for doing whatever. You want to take the place of the bad guy. If you were the abuser, and she was wanting out of that situation, then she would be a walk-away W. She is clearly not a WAW. Sorry, but you just aren't the bad guy in this case. You are too nice, too gentle, and too passive for this military WW. She likes to control you, and she'll stoop to whatever level necessary to do it.

This is all exactly what I'm starting to realize and I am removing myself from that abuser role more everyday. I am no longer blaming myself for things or underestimating her. But I am concerned about becoming too self-righteous.

The book is not about wayward wives! Please, just put it down b/c it is scr@wing with your head. You are not an abuser! She has a wayward mindset. You cannot apologize away that waywardness. Do you get that? You still want to use a form of nicing her back by being sweet, understanding, compassionate, etc. Those are wonderful traits in a MR.....but it just won't cut it with a WW.

Makes perfect sense. I will throw it away (for now). Recognizing every form of nicing her back and eliminating it from my plans is high on my priority list right now.


Whew, it has taken me three days to write this post because I have been so busy and have to stop and come back. Apologies if it is disjointed and super long.

Aside from being jam-packed, I had a fun, pretty positive weekend.

Friday night I went to my GAL friend's birthday party (had a fantastic time). At first, W was obviously unhappy. She called to me while I was showering and getting ready to tell me she lost her wallet and no one at work could find it, she needed mine. I said sure, it's by the door where it always is. She then comes up the stairs and point blank demands I go get her money out of an ATM. I said you're welcome to take my card and do it yourself, I'm not sure why you are asking me, sorry I'm busy and you know that. That actually sounds polite compared to reality, because with her demanding rather than asking, I just wasn't having any of it from the beginning. But here's the real mind-bender: She gave up and went back to watching TV; I go downstairs and her wallet is sitting right on her desk in the office! I ask her what's going on and she freely admits she was testing me.

She then initiates an R talk. Essentially, she tells me she doesn't like my detachment and the distance between us. Me: "Uh, okay, well what do you expect? Sorry I have to do what's best for me." She said she can tell I have changed and she isn't sure she likes the new me (my potentially wrong mind-read: you are no longer a pushover and that frustrates me, but I also have more respect for you). She went a lot into how she doesn't think I could trust her again and she will always be criminalized, etc etc. I told her I know my own capacity for forgiveness, but that perhaps she is in a different place based on her previous comments about not knowing how to forgive (my words, not hers, but an essential summary). She said she has been struggling with whether or not she should come to me and tell me all the details so that the record is straight and I know the truth. She also said she knows I think they are still in contact, and tried to assure me there is nothing there and if they do have any (infrequent) contact, it's about work (don't worry, I'm not eating this up). She said [the affair] was all talk and "talk is trash".

She flip-flopped a lot asking these sort of questions about if we could get past it, saying she still thinks she needs space, and also being pretty open to what I suggested. I didn't want to push too much, but I got the sense that if I proposed something specific, she might be willing to do it. Then again, she also brought up me leaving for a couple months again so who knows. The thing about her fixation on needing space is that she doesn't really know. She won't say she wants a trial separation, she won't say she has a final answer and wants to be done, she won't say she wants to commit to trying again, etc. I asked her to look me and the eye and tell me she really wanted me to leave (temporarily) and she couldn't. The conversation ended with her saying she wants what is best for both of us and I should think about it and if it's more comfortable for me to stay here, she supports it. The topic is tabled once again and I leave for the party.

I got home (very late) and she was sleeping in the bed. I climbed in and she rubbed my back and asked if I had a good time. We slept, not cuddling really, but close, touching. That day we did some errands and went to a movie and dinner and an outdoor concert. No other friends, just the two of us, we had a really nice time. It's hard to describe, and I kept wondering if it's all in my head, but it's like I can tangibly feel the dynamic changes. I can tell when she is feeling closer without her actually doing anything different. It's slow and ebbs and flows, but that day I had that feeling like "hey, the pool is definitely getting warmer". Her being genuinely nice to me and not disrespectful probably helps.

Then yesterday. Another good day, we hung out with a friend, went swimming, and he came over for dinner and drinks/games. The metaphorical pool was still feeling tangibly warmer. We made a lot of food, snacks, and such. At one point, we were making cookies and the friend was outside. I am thinking in my head that I cannot be imagining how warm the water is getting. W and I make eye contact, lean closer to each other past the point where everyone watching the movie knows you're about to kiss, and she says "do you want to kiss me?" So I did. Just a short, sweet kiss like you would give while cooking together and that was that.

I have to say the thing I am most happy about is her telling me how much I have changed. That tells me my efforts are getting me somewhere. I definitely think I have at least gained a little respect back at this point (and apparently a bit of attraction). I am treating any positive signs as just that and keeping my head down. Remembering it's a marathon and nothing is in a hurry. I still have a long way to go. I can also see my newfound objectivity. I am no longer hyper-focused on the idea of reconciling, but rather in doing what is best for me.

[sandi2]

The two boundaries I stated were the ones we had discussed--respect and transparency. The problem is that without her recommittal I don't really have the ability to enforce them since they were originally framed as requirements for a recommitted relationship going forward.

Let me see if I can clarify it a little. You don't have to have her commitment, in order for her to show respect. When she shows disrespect, you will call her out on it....and (depending on the disrespectful act) you will do something that basically has some type of consequences for her show of disrespect. That's why I was asking you what you did when you were in the theme park and she showed disrespect toward you. When you ignore her disrespectful actions (hiding to text her boyfriend) and her talking down to you or belittling you.....her feelings of disrespect will increase and she'll lose more attraction for you. Therefore, don't let her get away with disrespecting you.

When a couple has had some form of betrayal in their MR, transparency can be a means of strengthening the trust for the betrayed S, and help keep the cheating S on track while going through withdrawals. It's a way of holding her accountable, and invites you to see what she is doing. Any W who has nothing to hide, will gladly let her H take a look. Therefore, the spouse who was guilty of cheating, has to cooperate....to make transparency work. This is why there has to be an agreement about the transparency plan. She may have said she didn't have a problem with "no inappropriate relationships", but apparently, the part of her showing her text messages, fell through the cracks. If the cheater is not willing to be transparent, then you can bet they are still cheating. She can call it trash all day long, but it still spells an EA.

I believe you named respect and transparency as the two things you would need, in order to remain in the MR. Therefore, if she doesn't give you a "final answer", and the two of you continue living like a M couple......it is a win-win for her. She gets her cake with a heap of icing. Look at the vacation trip, that immediately followed the confrontation. Look at the two great fun filled days the two of you enjoyed together since returning home......living just like a normal M couple. Why would she be prompted to stop texting OM and be transparent, if she can have this nice MR without giving up her affair partner? See what I mean? She is continuing her EA while benefiting from the MR, too. She has had no consequences for her cheating. My question is why you've gone along with whatever she wanted....when she has left you dangling in the air without a "final answer" (as you call it)? I mean....what is your game plan? IMHO, you should have never agreed to go on a fun vacation when the MR is pending. Anyway, you are back home now, so what's next?

To be clear,44, this is your M....not mine. So, it is entirely up to you if you continue to put up with her cheating. I think you were originally hoping to build the respect and attraction back. (That was before the big talk after she returned from her trip.) Are you wanting to wait out the EA? I'm just concerned that she'll find a new OM when this one fizzles out. Her feelings for you will not return as long as she has some other guy giving her an emotional thrill. But, I won't repeat all this again, b/c we have gone over it in the past.

Threats to end the MR I just straight up ignore because they are outside of my limit of rationality. I would love to hear your thoughts on having stronger responses, because I feel if I actually open my mouth it just turns into a nasty argument.

She sees you dependent upon her, and she believes you are afraid of losing the MR. Threats to end the M, is a form of bullying. You cannot ignore a bully. Parents give the wrong message when they tell their kids to just ignore the school yard bully, b/c bullies become worse. You have to deal with them head on. If it were me, I'd call her bluff. Seems like it would be better than having her hold that threat over your head all the time.

How would I handle her threats of ending the M? I'd show her the door and tell her to get with it. But, that's just me. That's my personality, b/c I am not going to beg my spouse to like me or stay with me. I am not going to tolerate that type of treatment. If my spouse was threatening to end our M.....I'd personally walk him to the door and show him out, or I'd pack my bags and leave.

If she won't leave, and won't shut up, then you need to be prepared to leave the house. She brings up this thing about you should leave for a couple of months.......and it's just more bulling. It needs to stop. I don't think she'll ever desire you sexually, if she can control you with these threats. I believe her "not sure if she likes the new you" is b/c she sees you being more independent, and it's not as easy to "manage" you when you're acting like a grown-a$$ man.

FWIW, some men can put a shut down a lot of b.s. from their W, simply by using their authoritative voice. Do you know what I mean?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

So what do I do when she squirms and deflects and denies? She will just fight me to the death and I don't know how to respond to that.

Well, you don't scuffle with her to get the phone. She has pretty much given herself away. You need to decide right now which hill you want to die on. If you say you are not going to stay in a M with a third party, inappropriate relationships, dishonesty, or whatever..... and she is not showing herself to be trustworthy, then it's time for you to take action. If you ask to see her phone (not after she deletes her messages) and she refuses, then you need to start taking steps to separate. I think you know it in your heart, but you had rather "ignore" it. It boils down to this......she is contacting her OM, so what are you going to do about it?

This is all exactly what I'm starting to realize and I am removing myself from that abuser role more everyday. I am no longer blaming myself for things or underestimating her. But I am concerned about becoming too self-righteous.

I am relieved to hear it. I have never seen anything in your posts that hinted at self-righteousness. You should know that I would have called your hand on it.

I will have to continue this in next post.

[sandi2]

Continued from previous post:

But here's the real mind-bender: She gave up and went back to watching TV; I go downstairs and her wallet is sitting right on her desk in the office! I ask her what's going on and she freely admits she was testing me.

How did you respond? Did she bother to tell you what the test was about? This is very unacceptable behavior, 44. She enjoys pulling your chain.

She then initiates an R talk. Essentially, she tells me she doesn't like my detachment and the distance between us.

So, she doesn't like you being distance, but she wants to have space!

Let me interpret it, b/c this is written in WW code.

You being distant = You being unavailable to her.

Her having space = Her having privacy.

She went a lot into how she doesn't think I could trust her again and she will always be criminalized, etc etc. I told her I know my own capacity for forgiveness, but that perhaps she is in a different place based on her previous comments about not knowing how to forgiv

This is an example of how a WW will pull the old switcheroo by putting words into the H's mouth......and it's usually something about not sure he can ever trust her again, yada, yada. It is WW b.s. Don't start telling her anything about your capacity to forgive, etc. Don't start trying to convince her that you'll forgive her, b/c that has nothing to do with her little game here. Don't say a word. Just look at her with a poker face. She needs to be concerned that you might not forgive her! Stop reassuring her that you are eager to forgive, or that you've already forgiven her. If she should ever truly become remorseful and repent, then you can tell her.

She said she has been struggling with whether or not she should come to me and tell me all the details so that the record is straight and I know the truth. She also said she knows I think they are still in contact, and tried to assure me there is nothing there and if they do have any (infrequent) contact, it's about work (don't worry, I'm not eating this up). She said [the affair] was all talk and "talk is trash".

Of course she is in contact with him....she just admitted it! Why else would she be so secretive? She can use little quips to describe her affair, trying to make it sound insignificant, but it was an EA. She is still contacting him b/c she is addicted to how it makes her feel. Don't believe affair partners change their status from AP to just friends. If they are just friends, then she'll have no problem when you reach for her phone to look at her messages. That is what transparency is all about. The cheater cannot hide messages, and have secret/private "friendships". I guarantee you that she would not stand for you privately texting another woman!

She flip-flopped a lot asking these sort of questions about if we could get past it, saying she still thinks she needs space, and also being pretty open to what I suggested. I didn't want to push too much, but I got the sense that if I proposed something specific, she might be willing to do it. Then again, she also brought up me leaving for a couple months again so who knows.

This conversation was to secure her position. I don't know how you responded, but you are afraid to push too much, so you must have sounded as if you were encouraging her to work on the MR. IMHO, when a WW is using these type of comments....she is testing her H. She is not serious about working on the MR. She is merely letting him know that she is still in charge. It would be better if he didn't say anything, and let her wonder what he's thinking.

She won't say she wants a trial separation, she won't say she has a final answer and wants to be done, she won't say she wants to commit to trying again, etc. I asked her to look me and the eye and tell me she really wanted me to leave (temporarily) and she couldn't. The conversation ended with her saying she wants what is best for both of us and I should think about it and if it's more comfortable for me to stay here, she supports it. The topic is tabled once again and I leave for the party.

44, it is going to continue to be tabled! This is how she stays in charge of the relationship. Can you not see it? Why on earth are you waiting for a "final answer"? Remember after the confrontation talk, and how she left things unanswered? That kept her in charge and kept you dangling. She's done it again.

I have to say the thing I am most happy about is her telling me how much I have changed. That tells me my efforts are getting me somewhere. I definitely think I have at least gained a little respect back at this point (and apparently a bit of attraction). I am treating any positive signs as just that and keeping my head down. Remembering it's a marathon and nothing is in a hurry. I still have a long way to go. I can also see my newfound objectivity. I am no longer hyper-focused on the idea of reconciling, but rather in doing what is best for me.

That's good to hear.

[44tries]

Let me see if I can clarify it a little. You don't have to have her commitment, in order for her to show respect. When she shows disrespect, you will call her out on it....and (depending on the disrespectful act) you will do something that basically has some type of consequences for her show of disrespect. That's why I was asking you what you did when you were in the theme park and she showed disrespect toward you. When you ignore her disrespectful actions (hiding to text her boyfriend) and her talking down to you or belittling you.....her feelings of disrespect will increase and she'll lose more attraction for you. Therefore, don't let her get away with disrespecting you.

I understand. The commitment is more of an issue for the transparency boundary than the respect one. I am fully on board with calling out her disrespect and it has become habitual for me to do so. I have a little more trouble with the consequence part. I'm not going to ignore her texting, but as I've written before I struggle with not sounding weak by simply calling her out or making a wimpy comment. But I know in this instance, the consequence should have been me walking away and leaving her there. I need to get better at quickly knowing these types of responses. In general, will the consequence be along the lines of me removing myself and no longer interacting with her? That is becoming my default response to disrespect.

When a couple has had some form of betrayal in their MR, transparency can be a means of strengthening the trust for the betrayed S, and help keep the cheating S on track while going through withdrawals. It's a way of holding her accountable, and invites you to see what she is doing. Any W who has nothing to hide, will gladly let her H take a look. Therefore, the spouse who was guilty of cheating, has to cooperate....to make transparency work. This is why there has to be an agreement about the transparency plan. She may have said she didn't have a problem with "no inappropriate relationships", but apparently, the part of her showing her text messages, fell through the cracks. If the cheater is not willing to be transparent, then you can bet they are still cheating. She can call it trash all day long, but it still spells an EA.

Completely agree. She seemed to think she was being transparent until I told her what that meant. Her response to that was basically defensiveness and evasion. The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us. The real issue is her dropping the defensive stance and understanding why extra steps are necessary at this time to restore trust (again, restoring trust is not a priority for her like it would be with recommitment). She can't seem to concede the fact that it is natural for me to need more transparency than I normally would before the A. It's the whole resistance to being in that weaker role of truly admitting she did something very wrong and needs to be fully remorseful, etc.

I believe you named respect and transparency as the two things you would need, in order to remain in the MR. Therefore, if she doesn't give you a "final answer", and the two of you continue living like a M couple......it is a win-win for her. She gets her cake with a heap of icing. Look at the vacation trip, that immediately followed the confrontation. Look at the two great fun filled days the two of you enjoyed together since returning home......living just like a normal M couple. Why would she be prompted to stop texting OM and be transparent, if she can have this nice MR without giving up her affair partner? See what I mean? She is continuing her EA while benefiting from the MR, too. She has had no consequences for her cheating. My question is why you've gone along with whatever she wanted....when she has left you dangling in the air without a "final answer" (as you call it)? I mean....what is your game plan? IMHO, you should have never agreed to go on a fun vacation when the MR is pending. Anyway, you are back home now, so what's next?

This is an issue I am well aware of and know needs to be addressed. I fully see the problem, don't worry. I don't think final answer is a good term and understand why you put it in quotes. I understand this is a slow process and she isn't going to have any overnight changes of heart, feelings, behavior, etc. If her A is out of the picture, I don't see a reason to be too pushy about recommitment or labels. Especially because she is stubborn and I think there are a lot of steps for her to go before she is near making anything "official", if that makes sense. I find myself at odds with the whole DB philosophy of non-pursuit when I think about how to demand more so that she isn't cake eating. Again, if the A is out, is it cake-eating to do "couple" things before I have total recommitment? Or is there a stage where she is in the turnaround process and I shouldn't be shutting everything down?

To be clear,44, this is your M....not mine. So, it is entirely up to you if you continue to put up with her cheating. I think you were originally hoping to build the respect and attraction back. (That was before the big talk after she returned from her trip.) Are you wanting to wait out the EA? I'm just concerned that she'll find a new OM when this one fizzles out. Her feelings for you will not return as long as she has some other guy giving her an emotional thrill. But, I won't repeat all this again, b/c we have gone over it in the past.

These are very valid concerns that I have as well. Obviously, I can't go by anything she says, which has remained that she ended the A two months ago. So I can't know anything for sure, but I have not seen any sign of OM contact since the trip. I do not think it is appropriate for them to have contact of any kind ever, and if we ever do get to recommitment this will be something I draw a hard line about, but right now I do not believe there is an active relationship between them.

She sees you dependent upon her, and she believes you are afraid of losing the MR. Threats to end the M, is a form of bullying. You cannot ignore a bully. Parents give the wrong message when they tell their kids to just ignore the school yard bully, b/c bullies become worse. You have to deal with them head on. If it were me, I'd call her bluff. Seems like it would be better than having her hold that threat over your head all the time.

This is good advice because you are right, it is effectively bullying and the best thing to do is probably to call her bluffs. I've already gained confidence that it is all a bluff, but I should just completely rid myself of any hesitations and not be afraid to be fairly aggressive about the bluff-calling.

How would I handle her threats of ending the M? I'd show her the door and tell her to get with it. But, that's just me. That's my personality, b/c I am not going to beg my spouse to like me or stay with me. I am not going to tolerate that type of treatment. If my spouse was threatening to end our M.....I'd personally walk him to the door and show him out, or I'd pack my bags and leave.

Noted.

If she won't leave, and won't shut up, then you need to be prepared to leave the house. She brings up this thing about you should leave for a couple of months.......and it's just more bulling. It needs to stop. I don't think she'll ever desire you sexually, if she can control you with these threats. I believe her "not sure if she likes the new you" is b/c she sees you being more independent, and it's not as easy to "manage" you when you're acting like a grown-a$$ man.

Her control becomes less all the time. Perhaps I can be harsher and the whole thing will speed up, but while I'm moving in the right direction and constantly reminding myself the changes can only happen slowly anyway, I struggle with knowing just how much to push.

FWIW, some men can put a shut down a lot of b.s. from their W, simply by using their authoritative voice. Do you know what I mean?

Yes, I do. I have been working on male dominance stuff which includes body language and voice and it definitely helps. Again, I don't know if I should be looking for some kind of instant change (in both her and myself), or if realistically the progress I'm making is, for the most part, what I'm aiming toward.

That was the perfect time to say, "If it is not what I think, then you'll have no problem letting me see your phone".

This was the point you should have held her accountable. She had said the day of confrontation she had no problem with "no private, inappropriate relationships". So, why did you allow this to just slide?

Great question, and I should not have let the conversation move away from the direct accountability I could have demanded in the moment. If OM contact becomes an issue again and this type of conversation occurs, I won't make the same mistake.

Well, you don't scuffle with her to get the phone. She has pretty much given herself away. You need to decide right now which hill you want to die on. If you say you are not going to stay in a M with a third party, inappropriate relationships, dishonesty, or whatever..... and she is not showing herself to be trustworthy, then it's time for you to take action. If you ask to see her phone (not after she deletes her messages) and she refuses, then you need to start taking steps to separate. I think you know it in your heart, but you had rather "ignore" it. It boils down to this......she is contacting her OM, so what are you going to do about it?

Understood and agreed. As I mentioned above, OM doesn't seem to be a present issue. If the contact had continued or resumes again, I don't have much tolerance left (not that I should have had any to begin with). I can be patient and do the whole limbo thing if there isn't a third party, but if the lies go on, I have to be done. This was essentially the message I sent at the theme park and I have no real way to know it's effect other than that I haven't seen OM contact since.

I am relieved to hear it. I have never seen anything in your posts that hinted at self-righteousness. You should know that I would have called your hand on it.

This is great to hear and I know you would It is most likely just the unnatural feeling of removing myself from the bad-guy role.

How did you respond? Did she bother to tell you what the test was about? This is very unacceptable behavior, 44. She enjoys pulling your chain.

I told her she was unbelievable and walked away. She did not directly say what the test was about and I don't think it was even coherent in her mind, really. It boiled down to feeling like she was losing power and testing to see how much she still had i.e. could she get me to set aside my time while I was busy to prioritize her. I can see right through this now, so it isn't going to work.

So, she doesn't like you being distance, but she wants to have space!

Let me interpret it, b/c this is written in WW code.

You being distant = You being unavailable to her.

Her having space = Her having privacy.

Nailed it. Luckily, I am learning this code. Yes, it made no logical sense to complain about the distant environment and then also cry for space. However, I was no longer bewildered. It makes perfect sense in WW speak.

This is an example of how a WW will pull the old switcheroo by putting words into the H's mouth......and it's usually something about not sure he can ever trust her again, yada, yada. It is WW b.s. Don't start telling her anything about your capacity to forgive, etc. Don't start trying to convince her that you'll forgive her, b/c that has nothing to do with her little game here. Don't say a word. Just look at her with a poker face. She needs to be concerned that you might not forgive her! Stop reassuring her that you are eager to forgive, or that you've already forgiven her. If she should ever truly become remorseful and repent, then you can tell her.

Great reminders. Still have to stop myself from trying to meet the WW with logic or be fooled into thinking her concern is real. One question, is true remorse/repentance going to coincide with recommitment or could those be separate states/events?

Of course she is in contact with him....she just admitted it! Why else would she be so secretive? She can use little quips to describe her affair, trying to make it sound insignificant, but it was an EA. She is still contacting him b/c she is addicted to how it makes her feel. Don't believe affair partners change their status from AP to just friends. If they are just friends, then she'll have no problem when you reach for her phone to look at her messages. That is what transparency is all about. The cheater cannot hide messages, and have secret/private "friendships". I guarantee you that she would not stand for you privately texting another woman!

HA, absolutely not. And I will never accept them being "friends". I can't control her and if we aren't together she can be "friends" with whoever she wants, but like I said before I will have none of it while I'm still here. The secretive behavior has thankfully stopped, but I am wary because of exactly what you say about the addiction. I'm not letting my guard down.

This conversation was to secure her position. I don't know how you responded, but you are afraid to push too much, so you must have sounded as if you were encouraging her to work on the MR. IMHO, when a WW is using these type of comments....she is testing her H. She is not serious about working on the MR. She is merely letting him know that she is still in charge. It would be better if he didn't say anything, and let her wonder what he's thinking.

Understood. So my question is, when can I start showing any encouragement to work on the MR. Wait for her to explicitly go there? Or at least cut out all the back and forth securing her position stuff? I'm assuming it will be an obvious difference, but I'm also afraid of being too optimistic...remember slow, subtle changes are the name of the game...

44, it is going to continue to be tabled! This is how she stays in charge of the relationship. Can you not see it? Why on earth are you waiting for a "final answer"? Remember after the confrontation talk, and how she left things unanswered? That kept her in charge and kept you dangling. She's done it again.

I see it.


Right now I am staying vigilant about her disrespectful behavior, not getting comfortable with the status of OM, and continuing my self focus and growth, GAL, etc. My family is visiting and I have had long days, no normalcy to my routine or being able to post, which I am so ready to get back to (as much as I enjoy having them here). My GAL is going great; almost overwhelming. I have people inviting me to do things all the time and I'm trying to find balance. I have learned more about myself and my NGS (fear of displeasing people, saying no, etc).

W and I are sharing the bed while my family visits. It is amazing how passive aggression and manipulation are sooo imbedded into how she communicates. I don't think she knows any other way and that is a little scary. She is so stubborn about not wanting to seem too positive about anything/me. If she wants me close to her she tries the old "I'm cold" trick. Before my family arrived, she came to the bed a day early and was again making sure she clarified there was some reason she was sleeping there. Some of that stubbornness is subsiding though. There are days she is pretty relaxed about having her guard down. She is definitely warmer, treating me better; more of the good, less of the bad. I need to make sure I don't let my own guard down and lose any ground on the respect front.

[sandi2]

My family is visiting and I have had long days, no normalcy to my routine or being able to post, which I am so ready to get back to (as much as I enjoy having them here)

I am relieved to hear it. I was very concerned that we were losing you. I was worried that you felt too much pressure and was fading away. I want to teach/show you what I can, but if it becomes too much or pushy......just tell me. As you may can tell, I can get rather.......passionate. (Yeah, that's a good word).

I am fully on board with calling out her disrespect and it has become habitual for me to do so. I have a little more trouble with the consequence part

Well, a lot of the consequences for the more minor acts of disrespect is just you calling her out on it, and then walking away and leaving her alone. Some other things may require you to tell her.......

"You are very unattractive when you try to bully me".

"i don't desire your company when you act this way, so I will be spending the day/night being with people I do enjoy".

I'm not going to ignore her texting, but as I've written before I struggle with not sounding weak by simply calling her out or making a wimpy comment. But I know in this instance, the consequence should have been me walking away and leaving her there.

You're learning.

I need to get better at quickly knowing these types of responses. In general, will the consequence be along the lines of me removing myself and no longer interacting with her? That is becoming my default response to disrespect.

Yes, generally. When you are home together and she does something.......like the "testing game", or whatever, call her out on it and immediately get ready to leave the house. No information, just tell her you are going out......and for her not to be bothering you with texts.

The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us

What do you have in mind, that will satisfy both of you? And let me just explain something about transparency. The spouse that betrayed the trust, doesn't get to choose the form of transparency. The faithful spouse decides what he will need to feel safe in the MR again. It's not like you have a discussion to see what she'll agree to do. If she is still contacting the same OM, or has a new OM (which I suspect is the case), she is not going to want to disclose her private text messages. Without seeing her text messages, what other means would you have to check? Doesn't she do all her communicating over her phone?

You say she's always been picky about personal space and privacy. Well, I am too. At least to an extent, but I don't keep secrets from my H. There's the difference. Her "privacy" is really all about her secrets. There should be none of that type of stuff in a MR.

When did you explain to her what real transparency would mean? Before or after the theme park day?

Here is your problem, as I see it. The big talk ended without her saying yea or nay......so, nothing was really settled. So, what do you do in the meantime? What if she never offers commitment? Honestly, if she wouldn't commit when you had the big talk, I don't think she'll ever do it.....apart from her actually seeing you walking away from the M. To her, relationships are all about who holds the power. To her, submission is weakness. To cooperate with your terms is seen as giving up her control/power, which leaves her in a weak position. That's why she clings to stubbornness.

I suppose you will know when you've had enough......at least, I hope you will. Just don't rationalize away her bad behavior. Some spouses do it, in order to live with their horrible partner......but what a way to live your life!

I don't think final answer is a good term and understand why you put it in quotes. I understand this is a slow process and she isn't going to have any overnight changes of heart, feelings, behavior, etc.

I think we need to clarify about the "slow process". A wayward can make the decision to "do the right thing" and enter into an agreement/commitment with her H, although her feelings has not changed. This is what I did in my sitch. My loving feelings did not return until after I repented, which took a while.......(seems I had some stubborn issues of my own). Anyway, you are correct that there won't be any overnight changes in her heart/feelings.......not until she repents, anyway. However, if she agreed to do what you needed, she could stop her disrespectful behavior (by her own volition), even if she never felt remorse.

What I wonder about is if you are looking at the two of you being in this slow process........as in her changing from a wayward mindset. B/c she has not agreed to "do the right thing". She's made no commitment, no transparency, no change, no offer to cooperate. She won't even offer proof her EA ended. Therefore, i dare say that your WW is not in any type of change or process. She is still in rebellion. (You referred to her stubborness. Part of it is rebellion to submit or even cooperate under the conduct codes of the MR). Do you understand what I mean? She is not in the process of changing from the wayward status. I just want you to clearly understand that this is not like a reconciliation where she is trying to do the right thing to save the M. The two of you simply continued doing what you were already doing.

Yes, you are making positive changes, but she never agreed to work on the MR........right? Perhaps I am making too much out of what you said.

I'm going to continue with a new post.

[SteveLW]

The problem is that she is never going to show me her text messages and it isn't because of an A or having something to hide. She is picky about personal space and privacy and has been since day one. However, the main issue is her attitude about it. If she isn't comfortable with me directly reading her messages, we can find other ways to have transparency that satisfy both of us

This should end when two lives become one. The problem is that people go into marriage not really understanding what marriage really is. A sandi said, there should be no secrets in a marriage.

A person that defends hiding something is a person with something to hide.