Affair, no feelings...is there hope? V

[44tries]

Previous threads:

Part I: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2783627#Post2783627
Part II: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785704#Post2785704
Part III: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2787496#Post2787496
Part IV: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2790033&page=1


I'm back! Sorry I couldn't post on my trip, was with W the entire time and couldn't risk it.

Overall, the trip was good. There were a few hiccups...one instance she went full "bully" mode and said some very hurtful things, which she did apologize for but I don't think it was wholehearted. It's interesting she tries to use our ending MR as a threat, despite already having played that card. If she gets really upset or hurt, she will lash out and say things like "maybe we should speed up this process" or "I've been going through the motions long enough, I can do it a little longer". She knows exactly where it hurts, but at this point all I think is...she is only undermining herself and her previous threats.

The worst incident was on the last day, and partly my fault. We went to a theme park and from the very beginning, she was texting excessively. Background/update: I know she has contact with OM. 100% confirmed, but it isn't obsessive like before and I have no knowledge of the content of the messages. However, she is shady and secretive to the hilt. She will verbally tell me to give her physical space while she is on her phone and accuse me of spying or watching her. Has changed her password, hides her phone while showering, covers it while typing if I am within view, etc. Anyway, at the theme park, my patience wore thin and I asked her if she was going to text all day (I know, bad move). She gave some ridiculous speech about how she is an adult and it isn't rude, look at everyone else on their phones, back off, blah blah. So I did, and then she accused me of sucking the fun out of the day and that I had ruined it. I am SO tired of being blamed for everything. So I kick myself and try to get through the day despite everything. Later, she talks about taking her nephews to Disneyland in the next year or two. She says maybe she will "hit me up" when they go and I can join so I can "still be a part of their lives". I KNOW to ignore all of these nonsensical comments she makes, but I am starting to feel resentful myself and I couldn't hold back when she called me shady. I basically told her what makes her assume I would want to go to DL or even be friends with her when in fact she is the one who is shady as he11. I told her I know she is still in contact with OM, has continued to lie and be completely insensitive and unapologetic. Of course, she got very defensive saying things like I am assuming and it's not what I think, etc. The best part--if she tried to tell me the truth, I wouldn't believe her. Gee, I wonder why??? So that's pretty much how the trip ended.

When we got back, I went surfing with my GAL friends (had a GREAT day). They changed plans and we ended up not going overnight, but W still sure wasn't happy. She made sure to let me know she was "leaving" before I got home and I know she desperately wanted me to ask where she was going etc but I gave her nothing. Yesterday she moped around the house, surprisingly wasn't rude to me but so over-the-top with her pouting. She actually got a deck of cards out to play solitaire in the living room. I honestly don't know what she wants from me at this point. How can she be so attached and needy, but so resentful and contemptuous at the same time??

I picked up another book to read by Stosny that addresses resentment. It really helped me to understand how her behavior toward me and subsequent guilt and shame feeds her own self-loathing. It violates her own humanity and core values to not show me care and compassion, but she is stuck in the cycle of misery where she is trying to starve her hungry heart to death rather than feed it (which he says is like trying to drown yourself--impossible). I really struggle with the fact that she resents me and has so much hurt, because I know I am not perfect and have probably done some very hurtful things, but I feel with her being wayward I am not supposed to have remorse or apologize for anything. I understand I need to regain her respect which may breed attraction, but how will that wash away her resentment when I have not sincerely owned my mistakes and given her a formal apology? The book describes how compassion is the only antidote; I am trying to find that balance of being compassionate toward her but also intolerant to her disrespect. It is tricky!

One strange thing that I am trying not to read into--she bought a book about praying for your husband. The entire thing is daily prayers dedicated to him. I'll admit I'm somewhat hopeful if she has some kind of spiritual connection (one way to connect with your core self according to Stosny), especially if it involves having compassion for me through prayer. I just can't really believe it given the state of her heart at the moment. I'm not sure why else she would have bought it; maybe there is some manipulation I am blind to because she brought it to my attention by texting me to check if her "new books" synced to her kindle. I told her it was there, but didn't comment on the content.

The one good thing is that she does have motivation to make positive changes in her life in general. I am trying to encourage this. I know it is supposed to be a huge no-no, but I have considered suggesting she read the part of the Stosny book for those with deep resentment. Not as a ploy for me or the MR, but because her misery is so clearly founded in everything he talks about and it will not get any better without help (will carry over to future relationships, etc). Reconnecting with the core self and finding compassion is obviously healthy and healing regardless of the MR. But I know she might not be receptive even if I made it clear I was only suggesting she do it for herself.

I'm so glad to be back here reading because I am still a newbie that needs constant reminders. A few days off the board and I remember everything but it's like I can just see it all swimming around in my head without the coherency I have when I'm focused, posting, and reading. I am working to get back to where I was before the confrontation. Actually, I think it was the talk we had when she came home that really set me back. I still don't know if maybe I should have waited to initiate that R talk, but how she was treating me during that time she was gone was where she needed to be and I am trying to retrace my steps to get back there. I think my DBing was at it's best when I was totally focused on me while knowing of her A, mourning my dead MR, and moving on without giving up. I think it's still too early to do much else without undermining my efforts. The trip was fun, but now it's time to fully detach and hit the GAL and "me" stuff hard.

[AnotherStander]

I honestly don't know what she wants from me at this point. How can she be so attached and needy, but so resentful and contemptuous at the same time??

This is very typical WAS behavior. I know it seems strange to you but it seems oh-so-normal to me having read so many sitches over the years. Here's a list of the things she wants from you:

"_______"

Yup that's right, nothing. So that's what you need to give her. Nothing. Time and space, that's it.

I really struggle with the fact that she resents me and has so much hurt, because I know I am not perfect and have probably done some very hurtful things, but I feel with her being wayward I am not supposed to have remorse or apologize for anything. I understand I need to regain her respect which may breed attraction, but how will that wash away her resentment when I have not sincerely owned my mistakes and given her a formal apology?

Not sure if you read many of Sandi's posts but if not, please do. Your W is wayward and waywards need more of a "tough love" approach than a WAS. She's having an affair and YOU want to apologize? That will not earn you her respect, she will have LESS respect for you because she KNOWS she's wayward and she KNOWS it's wrong. Do not give her any concessions, your attitude should be that the affair has to stop and until then there's nothing to discuss.

One strange thing that I am trying not to read into--she bought a book about praying for your husband. The entire thing is daily prayers dedicated to him. I'll admit I'm somewhat hopeful if she has some kind of spiritual connection

I think you're reading too much into it. I mean she could have bought it because she thinks you are at fault for everything and a horrible person and that you need to be saved and maybe her praying will save you even though she doesn't want you. You just don't know so don't lose sleep trying to figure it out.

I know it is supposed to be a huge no-no, but I have considered suggesting she read the part of the Stosny book for those with deep resentment. Not as a ploy for me or the MR

It doesn't matter whether it's a ploy or not, what matters is what she thinks it is, and she WILL think it's a ploy. So don't do it. You can't fix her, and you really need to quit trying to. It's her journey to make.

[44tries]

Not sure if you read many of Sandi's posts but if not, please do. Your W is wayward and waywards need more of a "tough love" approach than a WAS. She's having an affair and YOU want to apologize? That will not earn you her respect, she will have LESS respect for you because she KNOWS she's wayward and she KNOWS it's wrong. Do not give her any concessions, your attitude should be that the affair has to stop and until then there's nothing to discuss.

I understand. That is exactly why I am not going to actually apologize. I'm just saying it's hard to reconcile both ways of thinking. It was easier before when I knew for sure there was an affair and what was going on. Now, I don't really know what my attitude should be because I can't trust anything. It's almost like there are now two versions of my W in my mind--the wayward one that we paint here in all its ugliness and her "core self" who is a human being deserving of compassion and love. I cannot think about both as one in the same and it feels like glitching trying to tell myself which one is real. And if it's the former and the latter doesn't exist, then do I really even want her at all? It's hard to explain and maybe I sound crazy, IDK.

[quoteI think you're reading too much into it. I mean she could have bought it because she thinks you are at fault for everything and a horrible person and that you need to be saved and maybe her praying will save you even though she doesn't want you. You just don't know so don't lose sleep trying to figure it out. [/quote]

I had the same thought too and actually found it a bit amusing.

It doesn't matter whether it's a ploy or not, what matters is what she thinks it is, and she WILL think it's a ploy. So don't do it. You can't fix her, and you really need to quit trying to. It's her journey to make.

Of course you are right, and these are answers I already know so why do I keep asking their questions?


Tonight she blew up over my surf day. Claimed I was so selfish, had abandoned my family, didn't spend any time with the dogs, etc. Had a fit because I didn't tell her until the morning of, despite the fact I have been telling her for weeks. I told her I was sorry she felt that way, that I spend time with my dogs every single day, and walked away. Round 2, she threatens to leave while my mom and brother visit and says she doesn't want them to come. Round 3, she comes into my bedroom crying saying that I had accused her of talking to OM while we were waiting at a restaurant with the friend we visited and in fact she was talking to her mom because someone close to her had died that weekend. I also made the mistake of using something our friend said to back me up and now she is saying she will lose a friendship and we are ganging up on her etc. I don't feel I should feel sorry for accepting a friend reaching out for support during a difficult time and FWIW said friend has been about as neutral and unbiased as possible.

Turns out it was her friend's grandpa that had died. He went to all her sports games for years, but I also have to wonder if this isn't all manipulation. She is purposely trying to make me feel guilty and bad about myself. So should I just ignore her spiels? I know she probably wanted me to go chase after her and give her reassurance. This is where I freeze and feel like if I just never bring it up or show concern about the death that would only breed more resentment. But then a part of me thinks, it's not even about the death or the friendship, all she really wants is assurance she still has control. Then I go back to being horrified at myself for thinking those things about someone who is hurting. Argh.

[44tries]

I am having a hard time with detachment while still living together. It IS improving, but it feels like a tug of war against associating with my W. I am GALing and giving myself times where I feel great. But I need more structured guidelines for how much time I should be spending with W and what kinds of activities, etc.

Note that I already shut down any association during which she is disrespectful or uncommunicative. It's times where she is not moody and acting nice and normal that I don't know how open to be. Today she came home randomly around lunch and asked if I wanted to come to her work to play board games and swim for the afternoon. I accepted, but I don't know if that is inhibiting my detachment or if you can still detach while doing any of that stuff. We had a fun day and all her saltiness from yesterday was gone. We played around in the pool and when we got home she rushed me to finish my shower so we could nap and watch TV together. It's all well and good, but half of me feels guilty like I'm doing something I shouldn't and sabotaging myself. I know that I can't nice her back and I don't want to enable cake eating. But at this point in time, I just need more clarity on where to be on the "I want nothing to do with you" scale (my actual emotions are still on the typical roller coaster of love, anger, hurt, apathy, etc, repeat).

[lusa]

Ditto 44, i could have written that, so thank you for asking it

[sandi2]

I don't understand. Do you see her as being emotionally abused?

[44tries]

I don't understand. Do you see her as being emotionally abused?

Sandi, I would love if you explained your question a bit more--what are you responding to exactly? I don't see her as being emotionally abused per se, at least not by me, if that's what you're asking. I do not see her as a victim. But I do see her as a person with a lot of emotional pain and using self-destructive mechanisms to deal with it. That is not my problem nor can I or should I help/save her. However, I still have compassion and understanding and it prevents me from feeling overly resentful/angry toward her. It's a strange conundrum for me, because I don't think I should be trying to replace my compassion with resentment (that is the entire problem we are dealing with, from her side). But a lot of times when I try to implement advice I receive here it feels like I should be having "harder" feelings toward her and encouraging my anger. It sort of comes back to my previous comments on feeling like there are two versions of her in my head. I don't know how to internalize the fact that I'm done putting up with her and will be better off without her, without also abandoning the belief that she is a decent human being. I don't know if that makes any sense at all or answers your question.

[SteveLW]

44, we all struggle with that. I know I vacillated between the same kind of thinking. That she didn't deserve me anymore. And then that she was still the girl I married and I needed to give her more time.

44, the trick is until you embrace the first fully, and realize that the girl you married is gone. Forever. You don't have a hope of ever attracting her to a new MR. Let her go to get her back. That is the only thing that really works. You have to tap into that desire that innate in all humans that they want what they've lost or can't have.

And even then it isn't a guarantee, but at least you'll mentally be at a place where you don't care. That you can move on.

44 remember too that once you are over her, you don't have to deal with her ever again. I know it is hard to believe that you will be happy about that. But one day, if you end up D, you'll thank the Lord above that you two didn't have kids. And that you can move on.

Think of it this way: it is a win-win. Either you will have a renewed MR with a woman you love, or you will move on unattached to someone that truly deserves you.

[sandi2]

Sandi, I would love if you explained your question a bit more--what are you responding to exactly?

You seemed confused after reading Stosny's book. You come back talking about compassion, resentment, etc. Do you see yourself being in an emotional abusive MR?I'm just trying to see where your head is, after coming back home.

However, I still have compassion and understanding and it prevents me from feeling overly resentful/angry toward her. It's a strange conundrum for me, because I don't think I should be trying to replace my compassion with resentment (that is the entire problem we are dealing with, from her side). But a lot of times when I try to implement advice I receive here it feels like I should be having "harder" feelings toward her and encouraging my anger.

Let's get one thing straight. Replacing compassion with resentment is not advised. Resentment is never healthy!

I often talk tough and straight to a H that wants to remain in his state of passivity. The nice guy will be drawn to the type of books that talk about showing loving tenderness, compassion, understanding, cooperation, etc. There is nothing "wrong" with any of those things.......when implemented in the right time & place. The problem here is that you have a wife with a wayward mindset. She abuses your tenderness, goodness, compassion, etc.

You want to make excuses for her. Partly, b/c you love her, and partly b/c you think you can work around the controlling, manipulative relationship.......if you show her how much you are committed; how deeply you care about her; show her the attention she craves; manage to have time to GAL while she's at work; and hope to God she'll change......maybe a miracle will come.

(I have to move from the IPad to my computer, so I'll be right back).

[44tries]

44, we all struggle with that. I know I vacillated between the same kind of thinking. That she didn't deserve me anymore. And then that she was still the girl I married and I needed to give her more time.

44, the trick is until you embrace the first fully, and realize that the girl you married is gone. Forever. You don't have a hope of ever attracting her to a new MR. Let her go to get her back. That is the only thing that really works. You have to tap into that desire that innate in all humans that they want what they've lost or can't have.

Thanks, Steve, it helps to know this thinking is normal. It's strange, for me it's not really about realizing the girl I married is gone, but more like that she never even existed. Like maybe I was blind and somehow deluded myself.

44 remember too that once you are over her, you don't have to deal with her ever again. I know it is hard to believe that you will be happy about that. But one day, if you end up D, you'll thank the Lord above that you two didn't have kids. And that you can move on.

Think of it this way: it is a win-win. Either you will have a renewed MR with a woman you love, or you will move on unattached to someone that truly deserves you.

I definitely agree, if things don't work out, I have a lot to be thankful for. I have a generous amount of favorable conditions to move forward from this. I never lose sight that it's a win-win. But it doesn't change the fact that it has to hurt along the way.