Re: Advice on My Scenario Pt. 14 - Phoenix Rising

[sandi2]

I am not qualified to weigh in about all the personality disorders and mental illnesses. All we have is what you've shared with us and what we may recognize or identify as being something that looks familiar. Her actions resemble a wayward wife. I do not believe she is a WAW, in the way I determine a WW from a WAW.

I have a "sense" that she is hiding something from her past. Maybe it's just me giving her the benefit of doubt. You may never know what happened or what makes her repeat this behavior pattern. I think her mother either doesn't know, or doesn't want to know the truth. The whole story about her sounds too strange to be "normal", but that's JMHO.

Here's the thing.....she is either messed up as the result of something, or she was born messed up.........or she is someone you would not want to see your son bring home to meet the family. By that, I mean she leaves a path of destruction, and people are gling to get hurt.

You have not had too many positive things to say about her parents......so maybe she's just a reflection of her role models. Don't be offened, and don't think I am trying to sound like a ten cent philosopher.......but this thought comes to me when I think of her. Without a conscience, what separates us from the other animals? What are her values? What does she respect? Does she have a moral code of conduct? What makes her tick? After three years, it seems you would have known these things about her, and if she was that clever at deceiving you........then I can't help but wonder if there is more to the story than the common WW we see around the board. Any other mental issues make the WW more complexed.

As I once told you, there have been other guys who were just as badly deceived as you were. I know two men (different stories) very well who thought they were marrying the perfect girl, and 2-3 days after the wedding the W was gone.....no note, no explanation, no good-bye....nothing. After contacting the authorities, the only message received was the women just didn't want to be M. And these gals acted like they would simply die if they couldn't M these guys! Very strange. There are several guys I know who got M and the next day discovered the girl was nothing like she pretended before the wedding. Not the same personality, or anything like before the wedding. Not that any of this helps you, except to know it did not happen only to you.

[OrangeK]

I am not qualified to weigh in about all the personality disorders and mental illnesses. All we have is what you've shared with us and what we may recognize or identify as being something that looks familiar. Her actions resemble a wayward wife. I do not believe she is a WAW, in the way I determine a WW from a WAW.

Thank you. I need to stop thinking that there is some slight 1% chance of her changing and coming back. I need to stop wishing and hoping.

I have a "sense" that she is hiding something from her past. Maybe it's just me giving her the benefit of doubt. You may never know what happened or what makes her repeat this behavior pattern. I think her mother either doesn't know, or doesn't want to know the truth. The whole story about her sounds too strange to be "normal", but that's JMHO.

I agree, i still believe her father did BAD things to her, and KNOW he did it to WW's half sister in his 2nd Marraige many years later. I think her mother does know, she is the most non-confrontational person i know. When FIL explained his divorce as "I left on business, and came home to an empty house with divorce papers" i tihnk MIL found out FIL was doing BBADDD things, and rather than cause a huge deal, and have him arrested, she just waited till he left, and bailed with the quickness. Rather than ever deal with it, she just turned her head the other way for 25 years.

Here's the thing.....she is either messed up as the result of something, or she was born messed up.........or she is someone you would not want to see your son bring home to meet the family. By that, I mean she leaves a path of destruction, and people are gling to get hurt.

She is. I just want her to get help. I know she may still be riding the limerence wave right now, and relishing in her hatred of me (that she manufactured), but i know the walls of reality will crash down eventually. I dont want her to have to go through that pain, but she needs it.

You have not had too many positive things to say about her parents......so maybe she's just a reflection of her role models.

Her dad was always really great to me, loving and generous, even after BD when i was confiding in him and looking to him for help.
Then i found out about what he did back in the day, and put together the pieces for what i believe he did to WW as a child. I have had people say to me he "is too nice, like hes hiding something"
Her mother, is just a passive aggressive, fake person.

Fakeness, Lies, false images - learned from mom.
Manipulation, and Narcissism - Learned from Dad.

Don't be offened, and don't think I am trying to sound like a ten cent philosopher.......but this thought comes to me when I think of her. Without a conscience, what separates us from the other animals? What are her values? What does she respect? Does she have a moral code of conduct? What makes her tick?

Without a conscience, what separates us from the other animals?
Intellect. Intellect without conscious breeds calculated selfish deceit. A dangerous brew.

What are her values?
I thought i knew - Last year i would have said, Family, Love, Nature, and Compassion
Now, id say, Status, what others think of her, How she can get ahead, greed. (not trying to slander her, its just what i see)

What does she respect?
Individuality, Fashion, Trends,
People who she sees as elevated from her, or people who supply her with things.

Does she have a moral code of conduct?
I dont think she would cause anyone PHYSICAL pain or harm. Other than that, she doesnt seem to. I have seen enough evidence to show she will throw anyone aside for her own happiness.


What makes her tick?
Attention, Positive or Negative. One-Upping, Making herself feel good, even if that means putting someone down to do it.
She also feels good getting attention from doing things like making people food, baking, anything she can do for someone else that will cause a "Oh my god thank you, this is so yummy/creative, you are really talented!"
She is very self conscious, very bad at handling criticism

Answering this question made me really feel like Narcissism is really the case. it fits too well, too well to be a coincidence.
The one disorder she is very unlikely to even seek treatment for, and one of which treatment can be largely ineffective.
A shame...I want my Helen of Troy back...

After three years, it seems you would have known these things about her, and if she was that clever at deceiving you........then I can't help but wonder if there is more to the story than the common WW we see around the board. Any other mental issues make the WW more complexed.

Shes definitely still hiding things, from me, from her parents, from her friends, from OM. Its all she knows to do.
Its a self defense mechanism, she cant handle someone criticizing her, or calling her out for her behaviors. Deny, Lie, Project and Gaslight. Its all she knows. It must be EXHAUSTING. No matter how much i told her she was amazing and perfect, she knew the truth and it ate away at her. I think she may destroy her relationships before the Guy can see her for who she truly is, again a defense mechanism. Better to salt the earth and destroy everything than be SEEN and abandoned.

As I once told you, there have been other guys who were just as badly deceived as you were. I know two men (different stories) very well who thought they were marrying the perfect girl, and 2-3 days after the wedding the W was gone.....no note, no explanation, no good-bye....nothing. After contacting the authorities, the only message received was the women just didn't want to be M. And these gals acted like they would simply die if they couldn't M these guys! Very strange. There are several guys I know who got M and the next day discovered the girl was nothing like she pretended before the wedding. Not the same personality, or anything like before the wedding. Not that any of this helps you, except to know it did not happen only to you.

Oh, she NEEDED this wedding, she planned it METICULOUSLY. Then complained it didn't go the way she wanted, even though it all went without a hitch. Nothing is ever good enough, So i think when it was all said and done, she was pretty quick to be like "oh well, ill do better next time"
I never mattered, i was just there to make a baby, pay her rent, support her, and be a body to get married to for attention. Or so it seems.
She expects and feels entitled to a fairy tale life, like she seems to legit expect her life to turn out like a Disney Movie.

I know that all sounded very negative about her, not my intent.
Typing this all breaks me heart.
I wish it weren't so.
I wish she knew she didn't have to pretend, or try to impress people.
I loved her just like she was, but since i didn't treat her the same over 5 years as i did the first month we were together, it became stale and boring. I think she expected constant praise, admiration, and limerence.

[OrangeK]

Also, i dont know if this sheds any light, but all of 2017 (while she was already with OM)

She used Sex like a carrot on a stick to get me to do what she wanted. She would deny it for weeks, then offer it like a barganing chip to get me to take S3 off her hands for an hour, or if i could make dinner for her etc.
Disgusted by that. Considering she had already been F***ing OM for months by then.

Explains her "Edge of the bed" routine, or even the times i called her out for literally cringing when i touched her. I think she felt like she was cheating on OM with me........

[SteveLW]

I think she felt like she was cheating on OM with me........

Very astute OK. This is exactly right. A good friend of mine cheated on her husband. Thanks to my counseling she ended the A with the OM (who was a total piece of garbage) and stayed with her husband. While in the midst of the A, she described intimacy with her H in exactly those terms, cheating on OM. Especially since OM was insanely jealous of her, even with her H. (As I said, he is a piece of total garbage. I was friends with him many many years ago, now I won't even acknowledge him if I ever am around him (only once since all this happened years ago).)

[Nutcrac]

OrangeK,

Your wife's personal disorder characteristics resemble some of mine that I faced with my wife. However, I don't know if you can call that narcicissm. My wife's mother (my MIL) is clinically diagnosed with bipolar mood disorder. And my wife shares some of those traits from her mother although she has not been diagnosed as such. But a few years ago she was diagnosed with dysthymia and she used to take SSRIs as medication. She was fine until she stopped it and became a walk away and now hates me.
We had our own SSM issues that i have discussed in my thread which is partly my fault too.
I will list some of her characteristics and see if these match your and let me know your thoughts-

1) She used to verbally and emotionally abuse me until i felt very downtrodden and crying. Only then she used to feel releived and console me.
2) Highly moody - she used to happy and moments later her mood swung to unhappiness treating me like dirt with abuse and discontent.
3) Never ever asked apology for anything wrong that she did. Expected me to apologize even for her faults / misdoings.
4) Sometimes disrespect me in public (not in front of friends) but general public by raising her vouce against me.
5) Didn't socialize with me or gel with me well. Whenever i approached her intimately she allowed me to be intimate with her but never ever allowed sex. Used to give some or the other lame excuse and postpone it.
6) Hardly expressed her heart feelings. Did not allow me to express any of mine. Never once asked me how i felt when i was sad or upset. Always assumed that i was sad because of her.
7) Used her family (parents and brother) to rally against me and threaten separation every time an argument happened.
8) very discreet with money- never allowed a joint account, didnt even change her maiden last name to mine.
9) most of all, no trust in her heart for me. Mostly suspicious. Thought i never loved her or cared for her. Even to this date she doesn't trust me.
10) Thought that i was gay at one point. She had lingering thoughts and had doubted me a lot quite some time until i gave an ultimatum and she fibally stopped calling me that. But i dont know if her suspicion still holds good.
11) One day During Separation, when i apologized and validated something to her - she said she was vored of hearing same things again and again and wanted to hear something new from me!!!
12) She never posted pictures of us together on facebook or any social media. She was may be ashamed of me or something.
13) worst of all every ocassion like our birthday, valentines or marraige anniversary was mostly a disaster as she used to pick up sone or the other fight / quarrel and make a miserable day out of it.
14) She said she never wanted to have a kid from a family like mine and if she ever did she would desert the kid in streets and leave me for good. This hurt me a lot. Fortunately she left me for good.
15) Hardly discussed about me with her friends. If she ever did it was generally neutral or negative.
16) on a positive note she liked my company, spendimg time with each other, going out together, however that spark was always non existent.

Do you feel your wife resemble any of the above characteristics? Do you feel these are narcissistic tendencies? Or do you want to list some of her characteristics you felt she was very narcissistic about?

[sandi2]

Wow, Nutcracker, if you had posted this in your own thread, I missed it. This sounds like a completely different story. Not that it would have changed anything, but I wished you would have (early on) made this list of issues with your W in your thread. It just gives us a much clearer view of the situation.

Sorry for the hijack, Orange. This is an example of why I often ask newcomers to give us more information.

[Nutcrac]

Thanks Sandi2. But all this info is in the first thread So based on your views, do you still think my wife loves me or its just she is making it up?

[Ginger1]

Also, i dont know if this sheds any light, but all of 2017 (while she was already with OM)

She used Sex like a carrot on a stick to get me to do what she wanted. She would deny it for weeks, then offer it like a barganing chip to get me to take S3 off her hands for an hour, or if i could make dinner for her etc.
Disgusted by that. Considering she had already been F***ing OM for months by then.

Explains her "Edge of the bed" routine, or even the times i called her out for literally cringing when i touched her. I think she felt like she was cheating on OM with me........

I want to start by saying I agree with Steve. You are handling what we are saying, listening to use it to help you. I think you are ready for some of the questions I am going to ask to help you look inward.


You say she dangled sex like a carrot to get you to do things like watch S3 for an hour or to make a meal.

Did she feel she needed to do this? Did she try first by asking you to help with the meals? Did she kindly say "I really need some me time, I want to get get my nails done, could you take S3 for an hour?" ANd if she did ask nicely, was she met with criticism? Judgement? Did she feel invalidated for needing and asking for these things? So then she felt like she had to take out her arsenal, like sex?

I am not saying you did these things, I am honestly asking. Is there anything somewhat honest about what I am saying?


The times I have known women to do this, is when they try asking and directly communicating and they get shot down. I did it. (although I didn't use sex). Anything I asked I was made to feel like I was being unreasonable or shouldn't feel or need what I did. I was made to feel like an inadequate needy person. So I became awfully passive aggressive. I didn't know what else to do. It wasn't the solution, but I was at a loss.


Sometimes it is good to look to ourselves to see why our partners may have been doing what they are doing. It doesn't make it right..... I wasn't right to act the way I did.

Just like the communication. Lead by example. Words are cheap. If you stop being passive aggressive and bitter, perhaps she will be too.


I will say when I felt judged by my ex (which was pretty much all the time) that when I turned on my passive aggressiveness.

Happy father's day, byt the way.

[Ginger1]

Again, when you answer these questions, take the OM out of the picture. Consider your interactions only.

[OrangeK]

I will list some of her characteristics and see if these match your and let me know your thoughts-

1) She used to verbally and emotionally abuse me until i felt very downtrodden and crying. Only then she used to feel releived and console me.

My WW was never outwardly mean until after BD. In beginning of relationship she was super super nice, sweet, kind, giving, compassionate. Then she just got colder and more distant.
I recognize now she seemed guilty for a short time the day i came home after she was out sleeping with OM the night prior before i knew of affair, but that passed quickly and I was still sadly clueless at the time.


2) Highly moody - she used to happy and moments later her mood swung to unhappiness treating me like dirt with abuse and discontent.

Definitely yes on the mood swings, but again different. She would be dissatisfied with something, usually getting bored with whatever we went out and did that day, and would get very quiet and distant for the rest of the day. Nothing ever seemed to be good enough to ensure a good day or being happy all day, only at the very start of R.

3) Never ever asked apology for anything wrong that she did. Expected me to apologize even for her faults / misdoings.

I assume you mean "Never apologized for anything she did"
And if so, correct. My WW has never apologized for a single thing that i can think of, and also projected a lot on me that i ended up taking the blame for that was not my fault. Such as the fact that she was having an affair.

4) Sometimes disrespect me in public (not in front of friends) but general public by raising her vouce against me.

Again, my wife was always very quiet, and non-confrontational.

5) Didn't socialize with me or gel with me well. Whenever i approached her intimately she allowed me to be intimate with her but never ever allowed sex. Used to give some or the other lame excuse and postpone it.

This seems like two seperate things, ill answer it thusly.
5-a) Didnt Socialize - Once she "checked out" our conversations took a down turn, rarely did we laugh, or even chat together.
5-b) Sex also died off in its intesity, frequency and effort. Towards the end i could see how she was using it as a leverage tool to get me to do what she wanted (see my recent post with Ginger won this)


6) Hardly expressed her heart feelings. Did not allow me to express any of mine. Never once asked me how i felt when i was sad or upset. Always assumed that i was sad because of her.

No communication, WW would only ever say "im fine" if i asked what was wrong, or "nothing, but there will be if you keep asking"
As far as my feelings, she used to be very attentive to them, then once we got married, all that was gone.


7) Used her family (parents and brother) to rally against me and threaten separation every time an argument happened.

WW ran off to bolthole at her moms and basically hid from any conversation or responsibility after the affair came to light.
What you are describing is classic triangulation.

8) very discreet with money- never allowed a joint account, didnt even change her maiden last name to mine.

Big similarity here, it shows pre-meditation to marital destruction IMHO. WW never wanted to join accounts, always had some tangible exsuse for not wanting to do so. Also she always kept her moms address as her mailing address, throughout our entire R. Which i now realize is suspect. My WW did change her name but seemed reluctant to do so at first. Now i hope she changes it back.

9) most of all, no trust in her heart for me. Mostly suspicious. Thought i never loved her or cared for her. Even to this date she doesn't trust me.

No similarities here. WW never spoke of not trusting me, and knew i loved her.

10) Thought that i was gay at one point. She had lingering thoughts and had doubted me a lot quite some time until i gave an ultimatum and she fibally stopped calling me that. But i dont know if her suspicion still holds good.

I dont think she ever thought you were gay. this sounds like very extreme gaslighting to me. Did she ever have you thinking you might be gay, or that you really didnt love her after she told you that you didnt love her? Look up gaslighting.

11) One day During Separation, when i apologized and validated something to her - she said she was vored of hearing same things again and again and wanted to hear something new from me!!!

Because you werent standing your ground, you were giving in and that looked weak to her, beta. I did the same stuff, they dont want a begging, i dont think that sounds like validation either. Sounds like you let her blame you for something, and she got pissed when you didnt stand up for yourself.

12) She never posted pictures of us together on facebook or any social media. She was may be ashamed of me or something.

My WW used to post stuff about me and S3 ALL THE TIME. then it just shut off. Shes not ashamed, she doesnt want to be seen with you and wants to appear single.

13) worst of all every ocassion like our birthday, valentines or marraige anniversary was mostly a disaster as she used to pick up sone or the other fight / quarrel and make a miserable day out of it.

Yes, they create arguments to ruin what should be nice things. WW did this on our anniversary, when i was trying to show her a good time and get us out of "the rut". this was just weeks before i found out about affair. She was already checked out, and wanted to make sure i didnt feel like i made progress so she found a reason to ruin the evening.


14) She said she never wanted to have a kid from a family like mine and if she ever did she would desert the kid in streets and leave me for good. This hurt me a lot. Fortunately she left me for good.

Again, deliberately hurtful things. WW told me that she "didnt want to buy a house with me" when we had driven around all weekend looking at "dream homes".
Its all part of the devaluation process.

15) Hardly discussed about me with her friends. If she ever did it was generally neutral or negative.

Smear campaign. She is justifiying leaving you to her peers before she actually did it, so they would "you go girl" her through the whole breakup period. Flying Monkeys.

16) on a positive note she liked my company, spendimg time with each other, going out together, however that spark was always non existent.

Was that during times you were doing what she wanted to do, or spending money on her?
If you are doing those things, shes acting pleasant but you can tell the spark is still gone, sounds like being used to me. I would know lol.

Do you feel your wife resemble any of the above characteristics?
See above answers.

Do you feel these are narcissistic tendencies?
I hate to say it but yes, a lot of them are. Your wife sounds more overt than covert, but yes.


Or do you want to list some of her characteristics you felt she was very narcissistic about?

Love bombing in early part of Relationship. Everything moved so fast and we fell in love almost instantly. She was literally my ideal woman. Got me hooked and addicted to her. We both thrived in the Limerence stage.

Talking to her ex behind my back trying to make him jealous.

Triangulating people close to me in my life so they would be at a distance, so all my attention could be focused on her.
Even when we had roommates at 2 different apartments, she alienated them so they were never around. Before i knew it none of my friends came around or called me, and i never realized she didnt have any friends. HUIGE RED FLAG. If a person has no "lifers" or friends they have had a long time, look into their past for two or more social circles, usually based around whoever they were dating at the time that now all dislike this person. They choose a mate, screw with people in that social circle then completely disconnect and move on to another one. Example: WW had "Nuked" her previous social circle before me and "was in a dark spot" before we met, as she had nobody to feed her attention. Then we met and fell in love, she became friends with all my friends, and began doing odd things like copying their social media posts, and absorbing personality traits from people. Anyone who called her out on this was villifed and socially attacked by her. Then when she "checked out" of our MR, she had no new source of a new social circle. Then she got a new job. This gave her all she needed, new "Friends" and a new target to begin the cycle of limerence with again.


Once she checked out, She begagn the Devalue / Discard cycle.

Compulsive Liar, Blame Shifting, Triangulation, Gaslighting, Stonewalling, Complete lack of empathy, remorse or guilt.