WAW, MLC, or Both? Or Maybe WW? Need Help With How

[sandi2]

In my situation right now, she has agreed to stay in the house rather readily (other than the odd threatening to leave here and there), In your opinion, would once I am comfortable with really setting up my boundaries and I'm sure she is WW, would all of the sudden just straight up kicking her out be a great wake up call in my situation. She would NEVER see it coming from me as I've been the one holding on to this point

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First of all, don't say a word to her about boundaries, until you discuss them with the board. Too many newcomers mess up b/c they don't truly understand how to use boundaries. Therefore, study the link carefully, and then discuss what you want your boundaries to be.

You say she has agreed to stay in the house. You asked her, right? And she threatens to leave every once in a while? Well here's the thing.......if you plan to have an in-house separation, then that is how it should be established. I don't like them, b/c it's not a true separation when the couple resides under the same roof. But anyway, I will say more about how to do it later in this post. As for you kicking her out......here's my suggestion for your current situation. All you really know at the moment is that she's said she's not happy and wants a D, right? I haven't read about her lying, manipulating, deceiving, cheating, etc. it may be coming, but as of now all she has said is she wants a D. So, I suggest the next time she threatens to leave, you calmly tell her she is free to go anytime, and that you are not holding her against her will. That will probably stop her threatening. I suspect her threatening is b/c she is temp checking you, to see if you'll beg her to stay.

Another question I have is, does my way of treating my WW differ because we are separated but living in the same house? I mean we are already separated so she can technically still do whatever she wants even though we are under the same roof. I'm not sure how I would go about enforcing boundaries & such in this situation.

My suggestion is to treat her the way you would her if she was an elderly lady renting room & board. How would you interact with her? You would conduct this like a business arrangement. You would be polite, considerate, include her at the family table and a little chit-chat. You would speak upon seeing her in the morning or evenings, and say good night. You would not share the same bedroom. You would not show affection, snuggle, give hugs, call her pet names, try to touch her inappropriately, or sit closely on the couch. You would not enter her bedroom. You would not expect to see her naked, or get upset that she did not undress in front of you. You would only include her in family activities that were there in the home, but things away from the house would only be for you and your kids/family, your friends, etc. You would not act as her escort and go as a couple to events.

I would agree on a few house rules. If you can't each agree, then don't even attempt in-house separation. One example would be.....not bringing home other adults. Not having her dates come to door, and certainly not inside the house. Nothing that would cause the other one to feel awkward or embarrassed. Don't try to set ground rules to control her. They should be agreed upon to maintain a level of respect in the home.

In-house separation is awful, from all accounts I have read. It doesn't serve to draw the couple together. I feel like it's b/c the LBH feels very disrespected by his WW. She is free to do whatever she wants, and there's nothing he can do about it. However, that can work both ways. I certainly don't recommend in-house S for an indefinite period of time.

Is it normal for the WW to be telling her clients or friends about us being separated? also changing her FB status to separated and removing my photos? I'm assuming it is but just wondering.

A weird thing was when she thought I told somebody, she got mad at me for some reason. Would it be because she wants to control who it gets out to? What is the logic behind that...if any. I suppose there is no logic in this.

It depends on what you compare as normal. If comparing her to other WW's, yes it is completely normal. Comparing her actions to logical people, no it's not.

[Bewas]

In really going over all of this in my head, I think I've pretty much come to the conclusion that my W is definitely a WW. I think I just didn't want it to be the case. She may not be in a PA or an EA right now but she may have been or will be at some point. One thing I remember that I kind of brushed off and now think has much more meaning is that when she initially dropped the bomb on me, I was crying of course, doing all the wrong things because of shock, I remember seeing little "smirks" on the side of her mouth she was trying really hard to stop. I yelled at her why she is smiling and she said she wasn't and then would turn her head. I'm thinking she was almost enjoying it looking back. That really seems like something a WW would do...it actually sickens me thinking about it now.

Another thing I'm thinking now is, the night before the BD, I found out that she went to a mixed softball game with a friend which she didn't tell me about. I'm thinking maybe someone there showed her a little "wrong" attention and it just triggered this towards me. Of course, I'm sure there had been resentment building up towards me and a lack of respect for me being a stay at home dad while working, coupled with massive stress the last 6 months for us, she was just a WW waiting to happen. I've definitely been guilty of having "nice guy syndrome" at many times over the years.

She's also been playing games as well...she'll go from being extremely cold and angry to making cookies and offering me some, or even bringing me home food and then right back to being angry. She hasn't at this point tried anything sexual with me but I think I possibly haven't pulled back enough yet as I've found myself slipping at times with detachment. It also hasn't been very long since this situation started so who knows what she will do in the coming months. One thing is for sure, I have no idea who this woman is right now or what she is capable of.

I'm in real need of guidance of how to handle my current situation. I know that main way of reversing this is for "reality" to hit them or for them to feel loss and for me to truly start acting like a man again and get respect back. In my situation right now, she's already enacting the separation even though we are in the same home and switching sleeping in the bedroom. She's been telling people we're separated and generally acting like it. We've held off actually filing for a D, but I'm sure that's where it will go at some point if this isn't stopped. Although She's had some doses of reality at this point (that's why there hasn't been any filing of the D yet or moving out even though she was charging full steam ahead for that at the beginning) but it wouldn't have been enough yet to get her to shake this fog she's in.

One major issue is that until I find a "job" that isn't my business at home, I'm not going to get any respect at all from her, so until that happens, which hopefully will be soon, I can't really start too much of the tough love that Sandi suggests in these situations. Until I get a job, I'm also always the one looking after our son so it's hard to actually GAL as she works late a lot of the time so I'm going to need to figure out that as well. As she would never see it coming from me at this point, I'd love nothing more right now than to just up and tell her, "No, I'm the one that's done now and I want you to leave", and have her stuff packed, etc., but until I'm secure in my own situation, that might be tough.

Also, seeing as we are officially "separated" in her eyes, I'm sure she sees whatever she is doing as fine because it would be no longer actually "cheating" even though I see it differently and so would pretty much all of our family, we are still married and it's been less than 3 weeks. So I'm thinking it may be hard for me to enforce boundaries and tough love in my case.

One really interesting thing about my situation and I'm not sure if this is something common with the families of the WW, but most of her side of the family started contact with me even though I never asked for it. She's basically had no contact with her parents and some siblings since this began because she knows how they feel. She blew up at them once when she told them initially and of course, they tried to talk sense into her. They are disgusted with what she is doing and they can't understand her ruining her family and life we've worked so hard to get for what they see as nothing that can't be worked out. She might end up being a cast off from her own family over this if she keeps it up. I'm making sure they don't do anything on my behalf towards her but I can't stop them feeling this way on their own. I'm just wondering if because she had always been close to her family, this may be a giant wake up call for her at some point? Her Dad did A LOT for her and us over the years and he himself had someone do this to him when he was younger, so for him to see his own daughter do this to me is appalling to him.

If anyone could help me with more insight and advice into my own specific situation I would so grateful as I'm having a really hard time with this. Thanks!

[SteveLW]

First get out of your head. Second stop trying to get into hers. You have a lot of work to do.

180 on the NGS. 180 on not having a job.

Detach!! You are still too focused on her! Stop that and work hard at detachment.

GAL. What are you doing to have a life out side of being a LBH and a father?!? This is imperative.

Finally, do all of the above and become alpha again. YOu've let your role as primary caregiver and home maker affect your masculinity. Reclaim it. And then become a spouse only total fool would leave.

Follow sandi's rules and sandi's advice to a tee! Consistency is the key. One slip up can set you back days, even weeks.

[Bewas]

Hi Sandi,

Thanks for your input!

I'm pretty sure she is WW at this point now. There has for sure been deceiving, attempting to hide things on me, lying to family members about me to which they tell me, so I'm pretty sure cheating is either there already or coming. She 100% sees me as a door mat right now and doesn't respect me or our family. She still asks me to do things for her on a daily basis and if I deny, then she threatens to move out. Does that change how I approach kicking her out if I feel it's necessary at some point? I really feel she would never see it coming from me. I definitely do not want an indefinite in house separation, especially if she has an OM. The only reason I'm ok with it right now is because my home business is part time, I'm needing to find a more stable job to ensure I'm in a good spot for when she leaves, and at least while she is here, we can split the bills. I for sure, am not liking being in the same home as her right now but I think it's a necessary evil for now.

I really feel like getting a job out of the house instead of being the stay at home dad while working would at least earn me some respect back as it seems to be the MAIN reason for her lack or respect and resentment for me in what I gather from her. It's always the first thing brought up again and again with her since this began. This whole situation seems to stem from that.

Any more insight would be truly appreciated!

[Bewas]

Thanks Steve!

I know you are absolutely right. It is slowly becoming clearer to me what needs to be done. I know I need to detach a lot more, and I've found myself slipping too many times even though the rules are swimming in my head. It can be a real challenge to not play off of someone you've been connected with for so long, especially when they know which buttons to press. I know MAJOR one thing I need to do is GAL, and the sooner I do that the better.

I think in my situation, becoming alpha again will be imperative to either moving on or getting her back. I guess time will tell which of those scenarios plays out. I'm not giving up though and will see this through.

Thanks for the encouragement!

[sandi2]

One of the things stated was the sooner you stop their BS with standing up for yourself the better and quicker it could be solved, but only to do that if they are in fact a WW

I can't remember every word I've written, but I can't imagine why I would say only do it if they are wayward. Actually, a H should stand up for himself to any W that is giving him b.s.

Unless you know of some unresolved trauma in your W's life, I tend to doubt she is experiencing a MLC. The description you've given sounds more like a W who has lost respect for her H, which kills her desire for him and leave her feeling out of love. Her sudden attention to her physical appearance sounds as if someone is paying special attention to her.......or she's trying to get their attention. The younger, single friends can also go along with the rebellious, waywardness.

If she threatens to leave you, don't argue with her. Don't try to reason or beg her to stay. Simply point to the door and tell her she is free to leave.

If you discover she is in an affair, then that would be the time to tell her to leave. I suggest you know where you stand, however, b/c if her name is on the mortgage......the law says she has right to be there. Therefore, I don't like to really use the term, "kicking her out", but you can tell her you don't want her there and she should leave.

[hoosjim]

Is it normal for the WW to be telling her clients or friends about us being separated? also changing her FB status to separated and removing my photos? I'm assuming it is but just wondering.

A weird thing was when she thought I told somebody, she got mad at me for some reason. Would it be because she wants to control who it gets out to? What is the logic behind that...if any. I suppose there is no logic in this.

Hey Bewas!

This is a kind of interesting and important point and offers an insightful glimpse into the mind of a WW. WW's may very well tell friends or family that you and she are having trouble and may relay the sitch with varying degrees of accuracy... as it pleases her and as it fits the WW "narrative." You see, WWs live in a fantasy world. The OM is their "soulmate" or the "man of her dreams" or "her last true chance at happiness", regardless of what a scum-bag said OM may actually be and in fact in most cases actually is. (Seriously, messing with another man's W? Does it get much lower?) They also have convinced themself that they can just ride off into the sunset with their new lover, leaving their old (miserable) life behind and be eternally happy, carefree and joyous with a never- ending supply of puppydog kisses and unicorn farts with absolutely no pain, hurt or consequences whatsoever. But there's the rub-- infidelity is not happiness and bliss and joy... It is deception and betrayal and pain and broken homes and relationships and, ultimately, in most cases, guilt and regret. But the WW does not want to hear this. She does not want to be told this. She does not want to even contemplate such things any more than she wants to contemplate a continued life with you (beyond, of course, whatever continued cake-eating best serves her selfish little heart.) Any attempt to explain the reality of the situation or convince her of it will be met with the type of enraged reaction you might see upon waking a sleepwalker or a dozing dog. Similarly, telling others who might berate her or criticize her or look down on her the ugly truth of what is happening are not likely to be met with anything besides defiance and anger, at least as long as she continues to be "wayward." You simply cannot "talk her out" of her fantasy or of her wayward ways anymore than anyone else can, and enlisting others to try to do the same by "outing" her is only going to make her angry and dig her heels in even more. She needs to find out these hard truths on her own.

I was particularly lucky in that regard in that my own WW got a sneak peak at the "truth" of infidelity and divorce due to her life-lohg bff going through the same thing. My W's narrative, as with all WWs, was, at first, similar: "Oh, but look how happy bff is now and how smoothly everything is going." The one time i actually tried to point out to her how much hurt was being caused the husband and the children she interrupted "No, No! I don't want to hear it, please!" Thing is, being as close as she was to this woman, eventually even she began to see through the facade and see just how awful the whole situation was-- and i think it helped her own recovery to see that. The fact that my W was naturally a very kind and empathetic person prior to her "fall" undoubtedly helped, but being a firsthand witness to a close friends sitch, I believe, ended up speeding up our own recovery and primed her for her "come to Jesus" moment when i walked out.

Point is, worrying about who she is telling and trying to get into her head about it is mostly a losing proposition that will drive you crazy. You just need to remember the caution: "trust nothing of what she says and only half of what she does." She is not the sweet girl you married and does not think like that girl anymore nor does she even think logically at all-- she is engrossed in the fantasy and will lash out if you try to forcefully drag her out of it. My W persisted in that state of mind in one way or another almost right up to her final "Come to Jesus" moment right before Easter this year.

Prior to that denouement, however, we were a mixed bag in terms of telling people, and that brings me to my second point: Who to "tell" what is going on and how much is always a delicate issue and probably actually should be considered case-by-case. In our sitch, my first instinct was to "keep the road home paved smooth" as they say by not outing my W to everyone and turning them against her. I confided in my Mother that we were "going through a rough patch" but nothing more, but said nothing to my Dad (both decisions being based on who my parents are as people and the nature of our relationships-- love them both dearly and have great Rs with both, but they are just... different. And also divorced :-/ ) As for friends, I confided in three of my closest that we were "having difficulty", but only in two who i knew to be trustworthy and who i knew would welcome my W back as a friend if i took her back myself did i confide the full, sordid details. It was necessary in my case i thought to have some sort of sounding board. For her part, my WW did NOT tell her parents anything-- that would have introduced too much pain and reality, especially given her upgringing-- and told probably four close friends we were having difficulty and only her bff (the other WW who was married to MY bff) was privy to the details of my W's affair. (In fact, she was something of a co-conspirator and participant.) My W said a couple of times she felt like we were secret agents living this double life where no one knew what was going on with us. At any rate... personal decision on who to tell, but my own thinking is two-fold: 1) You should really have someone, a real-life tangible person not just on this board, who you can talk to frankly and honestly and be a backstop for you and 2) The "keep the road home paved smooth" idea has a lot of wisdom to it. I am not sure my very guilt-prone W could have come back had i loudly outed her affair to everyone i knew friend and family. But be aware thinking differs amongst some on the latter.

Keep hanging in there and keep posting! You have some really sharp people looking out for you here! You are lucky that Sandi2 has taken a personal interest in your sitch... pay attention to what she says!!!

[Bewas]

Thanks for all of the great feedback. I'm trying to not really tell many people myself but I can't control who my W is telling. She is 100% only telling those who she feels will offer no resistance or reality to the situation. Only a few close family members of mine and hers really know the truth right now and I'll keep it that way as long as I can. Others may know that we are separating as she has been telling select people but they have no idea as to why I'm assuming. I have found out she is telling them that her decision is final which is worrying until I remember the rule to believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. I have also been finding out she is telling lies about me, things like we have separated twice before or that I have secret loans that she found out about which is all complete lies. I'm assuming the lies to fit her narrative is all part the WW game.

I have been really feeling the need to Gal and I realize the first while will be tough actually trying to but I need to. I'm thinking this weekend, I'm going to leave our son with her this weekend and then go and do whatever I please. I'll let her wonder what I'm doing for a change.

I am really really struggling with what to about her sisters grad. They really want me to go and already got me a seat even though I said I want sure. I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't terrible for me to go to just the ceremony at least and then leave? Not sit by her or anything? I have till this weekend to decide.

[ovrrnbw]

I am really really struggling with what to about her sisters grad. They really want me to go and already got me a seat even though I said I want sure. I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't terrible for me to go to just the ceremony at least and then leave? Not sit by her or anything? I have till this weekend to decide.

I guess telling them the truth is out of the question?

"My wife is a cheating, unrepetant hoe and I don't feel comfortable going right now."

Of course I'm in a crappy mood today, so take that comment with a grain of salt. I just feel like why do LBS's have to tiptoe around everything?

Have fun with your GAL.

Of course I am having a really bad day and feel like IDGAF right now.

[SteveLW]

I am really really struggling with what to about her sisters grad. They really want me to go and already got me a seat even though I said I want sure. I'm thinking maybe it wouldn't terrible for me to go to just the ceremony at least and then leave? Not sit by her or anything? I have till this weekend to decide.

I guess telling them the truth is out of the question?

"My wife is a cheating, unrepetant hoe and I don't feel comfortable going right now."

Of course I'm in a crappy mood today, so take that comment with a grain of salt. I just feel like why do LBS's have to tiptoe around everything?

Have fun with your GAL.

Of course I am having a really bad day and feel like IDGAF right now.

Yes you can say that as long as you want to ensure getting a D with no hope of ever Ring.