Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[44tries]

I'm sorry if I let my frustration hurt your feelings. That was not my intent, and I am not being helpful if I hurt you. This is the remark I referred to as pitiful. Quote: "I told her I thought it was rude to not acknowledge me or simply say goodnight.". This was your W's way of showing you a little more disrespect and getting her control in the relationship. Perhaps you thought you were calling her out on rude behavior, but by your description, it just sounded kind of weak and petty. However, I wasn't there to see it or hear your tone of voice.

No worries, Sandi, I always appreciate your feedback no matter what it is. I understand what you meant and it's probably why I knew better at the time and should have listened to myself. I just got frustrated with her getting to decide if she wants to be nice or pretend I don't exist and the old way was to just not say anything, so I did the opposite. But it isn't something that is enforceable so I can see why it was just a weak statement. I can't make her acknowledge me, say goodnight, etc.

Well, she has been obvious about how she views you doing anything that doesn't revolve around her. She wants you to accommodate your activities according to what she wants. Honestly, I think she intends for you to feel guilty when you aren't being productive or attending to her. You are entitled to do things you enjoy.

I agree. I think that's why I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, because if she truly views me as a worm, anything I do that isn't productive or for her will only make that worse in her mind. I understand that's not my problem, but I don't think it helps my situation at all.

You know how you said it will take time on your NGS? Same thing applies to her sense of entitlement. This has been the dynamic in the relationship, and she will continue to test you until you get enough of it. I think you are way too nice about it. Just giving her the look is not enough if you're going ahead and getting whatever she wants. Even if she adds a "please" on it, I think the only way to really break her from trying to "use" you to wait on her is to get rather short and have a "fed up" attitude about it. Not very nice, you say? Exactly my point! When a woman has stomped on a man with NGS for a long time, he often has to act not-so-nice before she treats him better. If you don't believe me, ask another WW.

There will be times you will get tired and just want to go back to how things have been in the past. It will never get better, if you give in to that old dynamic. She is trying hard to get to that level of control again.

This makes total sense. I won't let up on the pushback and I won't let the old dynamic wrangle it's way back in. It helps to know that I can act "not so nice" and this will help, not make things worse. That right there might be one of the hardest things for guys with NGS to grasp and even harder to really believe. But I have done enough now to know that when I act in a way that I never would have dreamed of before, the response is positive. She might get mad, but I can see the dynamics shift and in fact things improve.

So far, she has not shown remorse or humility since returning home. She is going to test what you said to her that day she came home, to see if you really stick to it. I think she will push the boundaries as much as she can and get by with it. So, don't expect to see any quick changes in how she interacts with you. You will have to hold her feet to the fire until she makes a change. It may feel as though it's been a long time, but it has been very short. It didn't have to be this way, but she was too stubborn and selfish to be willing to submit and behave like a loving, respectful W.

((hugs))

I know Like you said, the work for both of us can't happen overnight. It's unfortunate that she wasn't fully where she needed to be when she returned home and I will admit it sort of feels like we went two steps forward, one step back. BUT, that's still a gain of one step forward and I will march on. Things have been okay, but she is still clear about wanting to split..eventually anyway (we have not had any R talks, but she makes the typical comments like having to buy more furniture in the future to fill two households etc).

She also seems to be really struggling personally. I overheard her on the phone telling her sister it was almost impossible to even get out of bed in the morning. She has voiced to me in the past couple weeks that she is in a really bad place. She opened up about a lot of stuff from her past, but said there is something bothering her that she won't talk about with anyone. She tried once a few years ago with her mom and was dismissed. I really can only guess as to what it is, but it's something traumatic from childhood. Anyway, she says that if she can get back on track with her schooling and some other major changes it will "fix everything" (I don't think she meant with us but those were her words).

I am torn with how much I should help her with these endeavors. She has always asked me to help but then it feels like she puts it all on me and blames me when she doesn't meet her goals. However, I also think that it's important to motivate each other and push each other be the best people we can be (in a healthy MR anyway, perhaps now it isn't appropriate). She has some big dreams and finally feels like maybe they are possible (and also still thinks maybe I will be included even if we aren't together, which really boggles my mind).

As for myself, I have a very busy week ahead and am continuing to make my own dreams become reality. We leave for our trip on Friday and I have a lot to do before then. When we get back, I am going on a weekend surf trip with some new friends I met through my GAL Meetups (W is not happy and started with the questions again, which I shut down).

[44tries]

O, I forgot to mention there has been no sign of contacting OM or anyone else (unless she has suddenly become very, very sneaky and it is only in the middle of the night).

[ovrrnbw]

O, I forgot to mention there has been no sign of contacting OM or anyone else (unless she has suddenly become very, very sneaky and it is only in the middle of the night).

The biggest giveaways is how they handle the phone. Secretive? Screen lock? Nervous around it? Under the pillow at night? Things like that, plus her attitude and how she speaks will tell the tale.

[sandi2]

She tried once a few years ago with her mom and was dismissed. I really can only guess as to what it is, but it's something traumatic from childhood

I think all you can do is encourage her to seek IC. If she approached her mom and felt as if she was dismissed, that certainly didn't help anything. If she is slowly opening up about something in the past, then she must feel she can trust you.

But I have done enough now to know that when I act in a way that I never would have dreamed of before, the response is positive. She might get mad, but I can see the dynamics shift and in fact things improve.

That is progress. Holding her feet to the fire. IDK about her, but a lot of manipulative women will take different approaches. When they finally see you are on to their game, I am crazy enough to think they finally give up........at least to a big degree.

[44tries]

I think all you can do is encourage her to seek IC. If she approached her mom and felt as if she was dismissed, that certainly didn't help anything. If she is slowly opening up about something in the past, then she must feel she can trust you.

This is what I did. I wasn't pushy, but I told her it sounds like she really needs to be able to talk to someone about it, and perhaps a counselor would be best since she said she would "never tell another soul" after what happened when she told her mom.

You are right, she definitely trusts me. I think she still feels a high level of trust and closeness with me, despite everything. I believe this is where all the "I need you and don't know how to live without you" stuff comes from. It just isn't in a romantic way right now.

That is progress. Holding her feet to the fire. IDK about her, but a lot of manipulative women will take different approaches. When they finally see you are on to their game, I am crazy enough to think they finally give up........at least to a big degree.

I hope you are right. After all my reading, here and the many books, etc, the problem seems so very clear to me now. I think she wants a happy, loving MR with me. It is pretty clear she does not truly want a real separation or to lose me from her life. She just doesn't believe our MR can be fixed or fulfilling and if nothing changes, she knows she would rather walk than go on with status quo. She also may naively think we can still be in each other's lives to a significant degree even if we D. At this point, she is telling me she is past the place of looking for hope or wanting to try together for change. But I have to think deep down, it is really what she longs for (feel free to tell me if I'm just delusional).

She doesn't respect me and that is the key. I KNOW this is what I have to fix and I know the things I need to do to make it happen. It is hard, slow work and now that I can so tangibly feel that everything rests on my ability to succeed, I do feel immense pressure. I am worried that if it doesn't work out and we eventually get divorced, I will always have the feeling that it was right there in front of me and I failed. I know it is possible she has her own emotional and maturity issues that could prevent success no matter what I do. But obviously right now I am focused on my part and I am trying to balance the need to push myself and work extremely hard, but also not apply too much pressure. I know the work I am doing will pay off for me personally no matter the outcome.

It helps to look back and know it has only been a little over two months of starting from zero to where I am now. In the beginning, I was clueless about the real problems and my own contributions. Now, I have invested countless hours learning and I have a roadmap. I have changed and continue to push everyday. There are steps forward and back. Yesterday, there was an incident that I don't think I handled the best way.

I mentioned in a previous post that I was going surfing with some new friends next weekend after W and I return from our trip. Last night, W freaked out about it when she realized I was actually intending to go. Went into full blown jealous, manipulation mode. She had started drilling me about the new friends a few days ago and I refused to answer her questions that were essentially the same old "is this a romantic thing?" stuff. She has been making snide comments about my refusal to answer ever since. So last night she launched into a contrived monologue about how it was unsafe to go on the surf trip as I barely knew the people and I was being so reckless and irresponsible, etc. She found a way to insult me and put me down (telling me I was always unaware and too trusting of people and had made a lot of questionable decisions in the past, referring to experiences that I had before we even met), while simultaneously trying to make it seem like the trip was a bad idea and I shouldn't go but not because of any personal problem she had with it. She even got her mom involved to try to prove to me that I was being reckless.

I did not give in and say I won't go, but I didn't stand up and tell her she was being crazy either. I wish I had a stronger response, but I didn't want to argue and that's what kept coming to mind. She wasn't telling me I wasn't allowed to go, which would have been a lot easier for me to know what to say. I will also admit she started to make me question myself. FWIW, I have only met the people once a few weeks ago at a meetup and we discussed surfing and I was invited to join this overnight trip they had already planned. They are similar in age and, like me, are foreigners to this country looking to make new friends and explore (hence why we met at a meetup). I don't think it is all that strange or dangerous. I am adventurous and perhaps too trusting, but I am also very pragmatic and to say that I have a history of making reckless decisions is ridiculous. I simply do not let fear of the evil in the world prevent me from experiencing life or seeing new places, people etc. As far as I'm concerned, W's tirade was completely out of jealousy and attempt to manipulate me out of the trip rather than any real fear for my safety.

We leave for our vacation tomorrow and I'm really hoping it goes well. I'm sure I will get plenty of opportunities to display changed behavior and I want to make the most of them. I am also reading through DR yet again, reevaluating the goals and checkpoints I had written down previously. It's funny, two of my original goals/positive signs were that she would end her A and that we would take a vacation together. I am happy and grateful those can already be checked off after a relatively short amount of a time. It's motivating and helps keep me positive, even though I can't really be sure how much that success was just happenstance vs a result of my work. My next goal is that she will come back to the bedroom (not sexually, that is many more steps away). MWD says the short-term goals should be something that can be achieved in ~2 weeks, so I am trying to formulate some that are more realistic in that time frame. Winning the small battles to regain respect is an omnipresent goal, but I need to find a better way to quantify it.

[SteveLW]

"You are right, she definitely trusts me. I think she still feels a high level of trust and closeness with me, despite everything. I believe this is where all the "I need you and don't know how to live without you" stuff comes from. It just isn't in a romantic way right now. "

44 this is huge. And you are in a better place than a lot of LBHs. Most of us had acted our way out of being trusted and having our WAWs feel close to use. It occurred slowly and over a long period of time.

"She doesn't respect me and that is the key. I KNOW this is what I have to fix and I know the things I need to do to make it happen. It is hard, slow work and now that I can so tangibly feel that everything rests on my ability to succeed, I do feel immense pressure. I am worried that if it doesn't work out and we eventually get divorced, I will always have the feeling that it was right there in front of me and I failed. I know it is possible she has her own emotional and maturity issues that could prevent success no matter what I do. But obviously right now I am focused on my part and I am trying to balance the need to push myself and work extremely hard, but also not apply too much pressure. I know the work I am doing will pay off for me personally no matter the outcome. "

This is why following sandi's advice right now is so important! She knows what it takes for a WW to start respecting their H again. Some of it will feel unnatural, unsafe, and even wrong. But it is like standing up to the bully at school. It feels unnatural because he is 6'4" and 250lbs of muscle. It feels unsafe because it will likely get you beat up. It feels wrong because running away feels right. But standing up to him, while the above is true and you will get beat up, will earn his respect.

You've got the right attitude. Knowing that wrong steps will undermine you, which will help you remain diligent. Don't give in to your instincts to do those wrong steps, stay strong, and make her respect you!

[44tries]

44 this is huge. And you are in a better place than a lot of LBHs. Most of us had acted our way out of being trusted and having our WAWs feel close to use. It occurred slowly and over a long period of time.

I am definitely grateful that there is still some warmth between W and I, and that all aspects of our relationship are not at a very low place. Don't get me wrong, there is obviously some level of closeness that we are missing. The intimacy slowly faded similarly to what you describe. It's like we have the closeness you might have with your best friend, but there should be more (as Sandi says, best friend is a demotion from spouse).

This is why following sandi's advice right now is so important! She knows what it takes for a WW to start respecting their H again. Some of it will feel unnatural, unsafe, and even wrong. But it is like standing up to the bully at school. It feels unnatural because he is 6'4" and 250lbs of muscle. It feels unsafe because it will likely get you beat up. It feels wrong because running away feels right. But standing up to him, while the above is true and you will get beat up, will earn his respect.

100%. Sandi is my guiding light and the perfect person to help with my particular problem. I try to follow all her advice as fully as possible. Your bully analogy is spot on; in fact my W has called herself a bully more than once so it might not even be a metaphor!

You've got the right attitude. Knowing that wrong steps will undermine you, which will help you remain diligent. Don't give in to your instincts to do those wrong steps, stay strong, and make her respect you!

Thanks for the encouragement, Steve. I strive to change my instinctual urges everyday. It's one thing to fight them (which is hard enough as it is), but I will consider it a real success when my instincts are shifted and no longer lead me down the wrong paths. Until then, I keep my eye on the ball and take the steps I know I need to, regardless.

[sandi2]

I can so tangibly feel that everything rests on my ability to succeed, I do feel immense pressure.

I just want to inject something, regarding your ability to succeed. The root problem is her lack of respect for you. That is what killed her feelings of sexual attraction. I have told you what you will need to do in order to have her show respect. Whether or not she feels the respect, is up to her. We can't force another person to feel a certain way. Normally, when a H commands respect, the W will begin to feel admiration for him. In her mind, it equates strength........which is the only thing waywards respect. At first, she may not like having to show him respect, especially when she is rebelling. If he will stick with it, her feelings will catch up.

That decision is ultimately up to her. She can decide to show her H proper respect, or live in a constant battle of wills with him. I have known some WW's who were so hard hearted and bent on doing things their way (big or small), that they would not give an inch. This is when the H has to say, "Enough", and dump her.

In my sitch, I was the one coming to the board and getting the tools, instead of my LBH. I also had knowledge of a lot of this information I share today. So, I knew I was suppose to respect my H. When the scripture tells wives to submit to their H, that means she is to honor/respect him. I knew that a long, long time before I had an A. But, I didn't feel respect for him as my H or as a man. When I finally made the decision to do the right thing, I ended all contact with OM. My actions were based on what I knew was the right thing to do.......they were not based on my feelings. I withheld sarcastic remarks/comebacks, watched my facial/body language, tone of voice, attitude, etc........so as not to deliberately show disrespect. In other words, I intentionally acted respectful toward my H, although I didn't have those feelings to match at the time. I'm not sure exactly when the feelings caught up with the actions, but I think it was after I truly felt remorse for the things I had done to my H. One day I noticed that it was not only showing respect, but I felt it, as well.

As you know, it takes me writing a book to get to my main point.....which I haven't done yet. I don't want you to feel as if the success of your MR rests solely on your shoulders. As a Christian, I do believe God holds the H accountable for a lot, but He also gave the W free will. Along with inheriting Adam's old sin nature, you can see how challenging a MR can be. You do your very best in holding her wayward feet to the fire, and the rest is up to her. If the M fails, it doesn't mean you failed to do your job as a man/husband. Okay? God is on your side, 44! He will give you the strength and insight to get through this hard time.

[Nutcrac]

Normally, when a H commands respect, the W will begin to feel admiration for him. In her mind, it equates strength........which is the only thing waywards respect.

Sandi2,

does this aspect apply to WAS too? my WAS has too much disrespect and anger towards me.

[fmly1st]

Sandi2,

Hi Sandi,

Just wanted to checkin and say hi. Not sure if you have seen my recent posts, but things are terrible. I think she is having an affair and her behavior indicates mlc or ww. Im really down and worried about my kids, my wife, and my own health. And im really dreading when i confirm the affair. Anyway, just wanted to touch base. Ty