Separated - love W- is she taking advantage? help!

[SteveLW]

Paying $2300 per month for three months then will reassses.

AND??

No more spoiling or being a doormat.

Uh, ok...............

[Did]

W says she has not seen OM in 3-4 months. Showed me phone and I said I believe you did not look at phone. Conversation overall went well, better than she expected. She is a good person not as bad as many WAW I have read about. Just doesnt have feelings for me at this time which stinks. Anything I do that would usually attract women just feels like pressure and causes anxiety.

Feel really weird about signing lease for her. Verbally agreed to separation agreement 3 months including meetings every 7-10 days and is going to look at separation agreement tomorrow. Will not sign lease or respond to landlord until she signs agreement.

Says OM is more than a friendship. She cares about him. I tell her that makes me feel like what are we doing I dont want to be strung along and put my neck out etc. Just divorce. She says she is taking it day by day doing her best trying to be peaceful and get along. She said tt was really nice eating together the other day. Seems nice and understanding. But nothing more than friends it seems like for her. Anxiety when I even come close to her. I feel like Im setting myself up for future pain when she gets with OM. Detach... Divorce? Move on... moving to a bigger town end of June maybe that will help some.

Thanks all!

How do I get the anxiety to fade? I was really a pretty neglectful husband to the point of being hurtful. No abuse or affair or physical abuse... emotional which is just as bad. I really relate to No More Mr Nice Guy. 2/3 done book. Working on 180s. Trying to connect with male friends. Havent been with a woman in a long time, wonder about dating again.

Still want W wife back... have to work on patience.

[SteveLW]

First, I don't care what anyone says, emotional is not just as bad as physical abuse, and is usually a two way street.

Second, you are making big mistakes that is guaranteeing your D. Maybe it is what you want now. All WAWs say they lost the feelings. It doesn't make sense to leave IF they still have feelings for the LBH. Paying for her to move to her own place is just the wrong thing to do. But I've said that 3 times and you've ignored it all 3 times so I give up.

I predict you will be paying $2300/month to her for a long time. Well into D. Good luck with that.

Yes you have a bad case of NGS and guilt. Giving her that money will not make her respect you NOR will it make her want to R.

Did you ever read DB/DR?

[ovrrnbw]

It's never too late to say "I've changed my mind, I will not be able to pay for this place for you". She'll be mad, oh well.

[AnotherStander]

Did, in reading your post on the last page about the negotiation with your W I think you handled it well. I know this is painful but hang in there and stay strong, you're doing fine!

Paying for her to move to her own place is just the wrong thing to do. But I've said that 3 times and you've ignored it all 3 times so I give up.

I predict you will be paying $2300/month to her for a long time. Well into D. Good luck with that.

Steve, you offer some really, really great advice all across these forums, you're a great DB'er for sure. But one thing we all need to do is stay true to ourselves. Did made a promise to his W that he would pay for her place. If I'm reading him correctly, he doesn't want to go back on that promise because he would feel bad about HIMSELF. IE, he made a promise and he doesn't want to break it. That's saying more about his character than it is about whatever his W is going to do with the money, and I do think he should hold true to his character. That's why I suggested to him that he make the compromise of giving her a deadline, which he did. He's not ignoring you I don't think, your input is more than likely a big reason he put a 3 month limit on it.

[Did]

I really appreciate everyones advice. My W has always been very sensitive she calls herself an empath. She gave up her career to be a stay at home mom. She has no income. She has our D3 70% of the time and no way to work until my work schedule opens up after July. I earn most of my income March - July. She has spent almost no money and been at her parents almost a year. It is not a good situation there with bad relationships all over the place.

When I come across as mean or if I were to take away what I have already promised things would go south fast. We were doing well last week before I started getting more involved on this forum. Since I have pushed for settlement agreement and tried to stand up for myself. We have fought more because of that. I do not really know what the answer is. But maybe having something in writing and meeting weekly, getting her off all my cc and checking account is a step in the right direction? She does come to me when I pull away and leave her alone so I am going to stick to that. Do what works.

I am going to be a man of my word and pay for the place. I am also trying to be tough and strong and stand up for myself. So the 3 month window Im going to focus on 180s and DB. I kind of doubt she has a dramatic change and comes back to me. I did include in the separation agreement I wrote up that the $2300 / mo will count towards divorce and alimony but Im sure this is not binding. If nothing changes from her what else am I supposed to do? Just wait around... I guess I could act like Im not married and date again. Another 3 months will be 15 months of separation. I want more children I want a partner who is excited for the great life I have ahead of me. I want to be the best I can be and accept myself for who I am. Im working on it to the best of my ability. Keep the advice coming! Agree with my decisions or not I value your input.

I would love to hear from people who have actually gotten back together. It seems most on here have D or have gotten back together and then broken up again... Sandi how did your negative feelings for your husband change? Just time and space?

Thanks all and have a nice night. I have D3 tonight so going to enjoy the time as best I can.

[sandi2]

It's good to hear that you had these feelings but then things changed I guess you are back with your H?

Yes, my H and I are still together.

So less time together... that is probably a mistake I made before DB I was trying this save the marriage system and it said accept all invites for family time but leave first, don't pressure just be nice and cool, calm, confident etc.

In certain situations, that advice might work. However, your W doesn't want to spend time together, b/c she wanted to give it up. Yes, there are times she may still want the "family" thing, especially on holidays or special events. For some women, tradition runs deep, and some WW's just think with an entitled mindset and assume particular things will remain. Actually, they want to cherry pick the times. When it is convenient for them, or fits their mood at the time, or if they don't have a better offer from someone else.

Let me use an example of a woman who is in love with a man who won't commit to a relationship. He wants to have sex with her, but she has high standards and will not give her body to a man who won't commit to her. So, why would a H give his wayward W family time when she won't commit to a M with him? See what I mean?

The WW usually has a fantasy in her head, and the sooner she wakes up to the real world of living a separated life from her H and all the benefits that came in the M......the sooner she will see all that she's lost and the terrible choices she made. That doesn't mean she will automatically have a desire for her H. Having her fantasy crumbled and seeing her reality, is only the first step. That's why I encourage the H to stop playing happy family. Stop showing her how much he wants to save the MR. (That doesn't mean he can't still want it, but he should not be so darn obvious). He should stop being available to her. She fired him as her H, so why should he stick around like a fifth wheel........being so pathetically obvious? That's not very attractive. Even if the W invites the H to stay for dinner (or whatever), he should have so much GAL plans that he's never free to drop everything and jump at her invitation.

So less time together

No time together, is more like it. The only time you should ever see her is when exchanging the child. Unless there is some business you just have to "see" her to handle it.......then why would you think you are suppose to spend time together? She did not leave the M in order to work on it. She left b/c she doesn't want it anymore. There is a huge difference there. The bomb drop shook you to your senses, and now you have this tremdous urgency to work on your M and prove to her how much you love her. However, at the point of the BD, the W is completely dead to all those feelings. That's why she gave the H the BD in the first place, b/c she is done! It is not her way of giving him a warning and telling him to wake up. She is telling him it's too late and it's over. This is what so many H's don't get. He doesn't understand why she won't try to work on the M. I'll tell you why. It's b/c all her trying was during those previous years. And now..... she is done, and they are not on the same time table.

So no more breakfasts whether she offers to make pancakes or not etc.

What do you mean whether she offers to make pancakes or not? Have you been there hanging around at breakfast time? Let me make this perfectly clear, there should be no more breakfasts........even if she invites you. Do not be anywhere in the vicinity of her parents' house at breakfast time. If you are picking up your child, then stop going so early. Get there after you know the child has eaten and is dressed to leave. Oh man, you are lucky she hasn't thrown the pancakes in your face!

She has been doing all the packing. She takes care of our daughter 60-70% of the time since I work. So maybe a miscommunication in my previous posts there

.

Sorry, I have trouble knowing when you are saying something as her or yourself.

Yes I hear you I can not spoil her. I have been giving her fam time when she wants it but not getting anything I want. So I have been taking D3 and doing our own thing and if she misses us she can come to me.

My suggestion is that you don't invite her along. If she asks, or invites herself.......you can decide about it. My point is that you currently need to pull the plug on her getting to play family when it suits her. Here's the thing. In a real home and relationship, you are family all the time, not just whenever it suits your mood. You can't tear it up one day and then decide you want everyone to play together the next day. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

I've watched divorced families for many, many years. In nearly all cases, the ex spouses go on to M someone new, and many times have more kids with the new spouse. What I don't see is the ex spouses and their kid having family together......... while their new family waits for them. Neither do I see all four spouses with all their kids playing together like one huge happy family. It simply doesn't happen in real life. At best, everyone treats each other respectfully and may even act friendly when they see each other. They no longer give their former spouse "family time".

I have watched divorced couples years later down the road, when grandchildren were born, or tragidy struck, etc. You know those times that kind of force both sides to show up at the same time? I think I have probably witnessed the best case sceneros.......(that did not hinge on weirdness). But, I had never heard or seen split couples having "family time", when one of them would be in an affair. That is, until I came to this board! LBH's need to wake up and realize how entitled the wayward nature really is, and his WW will take advantage every chance she gets.

She wants a strong man to be the rock she can lean on so thats what I was trying to provide. But I am seeing thats the wrong direction. Just DB and detach. How will I see if I should change anything?

Do you mean what signs will she give to indicate she wants back in the M?

I have a sexual humor and used to use that so if making nice comments like your worth more than any money Im sure joking about sex made her very creeped out. Example I told her I wasnt sure I wanted the couch because we used to have sex there a lot and she looked like she was about to have an an anxiety attack.

Absolutely no jokes or remarks with any sexual content.

[quote]I've jumped back and pulled away completely. Are there any signs I should look for? I guess if she tells me she has stopped talking with OM? Or if she asks to spend time together just the 2 of us... she invited me for breakfast the other day for fam time... but not sure if I should even accept those invites?

Here's the thing........it will be a long time before you see any of the "signs" I think you are talking about. There's so much she has to process. You see, there is more that separates a wayward from a WAW than just having an A or behaving like Girls Gone Wild. It is the inward part of her that has changed. It is the result of deep resentment and loss of respect for you, and selfishness has taken over and is the driving force in her. Everything is about her, and if you don't believe me.......just don't cooperate with her and see what happens! In order for her to find her old self again, there are things that have to happen. She has to face reality. She has to believe she losing or has lost something particularly important to her. She usually has to think she could lose her H completely (I can explain more later). Her fantasy has to crumble. She has to change her mindset, before her feelings will change. She needs to pursue her H and really work hard to get him back. She should feel remorse for the pain she has caused. She should sincerely apologize for the betrayal, deceit, lies, etc. She should be willing to do whatever is neccessessary to save her MR. She should be willing to follow her H's stipulations for reconciling, instead of giving her own. The entitlement should be completely gone, and the H should be able to see humility in her. If he can't......my warning is to stay the heck away from her.

Anyway, this all comes about from a process that takes place in her heart/mind, and it takes time for her to work through it.......if it's genuine. I am very suspicious of any WW that claims some type of "sudden" change. Beware of anything suddenly changing with her. When you see her words, her attitude, and her actions consently line up together.......you can start to believe her. Until then, you can't believe her or trust her.

Let me warn you about her emotionally temp checking. When she sees you pulling away, she'll say or do something to see if you are still emotionally attached to her. She'll gage how much you are attached by how you respond to her test. We call it temperature checking. And, BTW, the LBS does not test the waters or temp check the wayward spouse. Those are actions of the wayward.......and not the faithful spouse. If you show that you are still emotionally attached, she'll be ready to dump you the next day. Do not show you still care about her, and don't cave to any temptation she puts out there.

[Nutcrac]

Sandi2,

When you were a WW, would you characterize urself as having had some personality disorder? And you recovered from it eventually to get back with your husband?

[Did]

Sandi - Thanks very much for your response, this is really helpful and informative.

W acts like she is nice, kind and supportive just yesterday is telling me how she will support me and I will support her. But nothing about relationship or coming back to the M. I completely agree she can not just have family time when she wants it. She doesnt want any holidays or birthdays and everything is subconscious with her. She doesnt recognize anything she is doing as wrong. And says she is really focused on being a good person which I believe. But she is doing it all by herself and the girlfriends she spends time with are not centered at all. They are kind of toxic in bad relationships and W tells me about how one is kind of trying to get pregnant but not really just because she wants kids with a guy shes been with a couple months. Or the other lost connection with H but wont leave him until kids are grown. Bad examples of relationships and not great people in my opinion...

I may use the line at some point if she asks- she fired me from the MR so she doesnt get to have the perks that come with it. She is either in the family all the time or not at all. I just need to be consistent and strong about it... I pulled away for a few days and then she invited over for breakfast and I went with D3... then arguing ensued etc. I had been pushing for family time and time together for months. So she will see this as me being inconsistent again. Oh well...

She mentions family time is important for D3 to see us getting along together. I guess we will see how she responds when I do not cooperate with her. Badly Im sure. Maybe if its just actions and no words the arguing wont come...

I am going to let my actions speak. Stop being around and she can work it out for herself. Talking about it will just make her think I can not be trusted and I change my personality every week as she has said recently. We usually meet at the YMCA when our D3 goes to school there for an hour and workout at the gym at the same time. We dont speak much. GAL dont go for that time... if I have D3 I dont know if I can tell W not to go. Maybe I just drop her off and leave and allow W to have that time? I could say if I have D3 you dont come to gym and vice versa but that will just lead to arguing. Probably better to just GAL and do my own thing.

Along with the financial aspect of our separation agreement I wrote that we would get together every 7-10 days to talk about D3 future and plans for marriage. This can be the only time we talk in person? Or just dont do that at all? We have a house together and a lot of things to figure out - splitting furniture, weekly schedule with D3 custody etc. My work schedule is never the same... I guess this meeting could just be to figure out custody sharing and moving process. Then I can just nicely leave...? Unless she makes a dramatic shift in the future to pursuing me and no OM in picture.

She did come back to me after 1st PA this winter. She lied about it and said just friends, while she was sending naked pictures and sexting graphic stuff - and manipulation tactic although true in her head was to not hurt me. I saw her phone and this was the worst part of this whole thing, it was as bad as you can imagine with her physically trying to attack me to get her phone and me easily fending her off as she hurt herself trying to hurt me... talking to her mom and OM. Probably the worst time of my life. I was pathetic- depressed high anxiety lack of sleep. A few weeks after she told me to date, why I listened to her I dont know easier I guess or just weak. So I had a couple short lived relationships, I would be up and excited for new woman then see flaws and be down and think of W. I wasnt ready to date and I still am not even though a big part of me would like to. I need to be stronger than that and its not fair to OW. Its like a painkiller or distraction. Then W came back this winter after things got to serious with PA she definitely affaired down, a lot. I was wary and tried to take it slow but she said all these great things. Youre my ideal man when I was with him I thought of you was very apologetic. But it was a radical shift and obviously couldnt be maintained she got anxious in a few days and left again. Blaming me for being pushy but I think it as much or more of her being oversensitive and never working on herself. A couple weeks later she was back online dating and that is where she met this OM she says she is currently more than friends with and cares about. They text every day but havent seen each other in 3-4 months. I consider it an EA at this point but they were sleeping together months ago. He doesnt have time and doesnt prioritize her as far as I know. Her self worth has always been an issue stemming from childhood issues and then my neglect probably made it worse. Just some backstory there.

Anyway thanks again Sandi. Im going to commit to no time together. GAL, work on myself and continue 180s which are more like 90s or 120s at this point. I have almost finished No More Mr Nice Guy. I read DB and started DR. Authoer of NMMNG recommended these books figure I will throw them out here: Feel the fear and do it anyway, Way of the superior man, War of Art, The road less traveled and the passionate marriage. So I have a lot of reading to do, moving from our big house to a nice but small 2 BR condo for me and a 2 BR townhouse for her is a process and a lot of work. She has been doing the majority of packing since she doenst work. Im trying to connect with guy friends but havent had much success recently. Im very busy with work through late July which is rewarding I coach a lot of high school and youth boys. I can pack, read and move. But still need to get a consistent social life. All my guy friends are coupled up and its just not a priority for many of them. The urge to date is there but I think that is part of Mr Nice Guy syndrome and validation from women. I havent been dating in months.

Thanks again for all your insights its valuable. I hope things get better but it seems like there are going to be some lonely times ahead... just focus on what I can control and giving my love and energy to myself and D3.

[Did]

So W texted me at 1130pm I shattered my phone. I dont want to spend a lot of money on a new one. My response at 4am when I am up and posting / working was maybe OM has one for you. Her current phone was given to her by first OM. Probably immature and a bad response...

Our phone plan is still through her and her parents business. She stopped working 2 years ago. I can say you can get your own phone as we are about to separate finances and I am giving her rental payment + $1000 for life / expenses for 3 months? She can do a monthly payment or whatever? She will want to pay through our/ my money. I can also take my phone off her parents plan along with this action.

Thoughts?