Affair discovered

[sandi2]

One thing that has kept me hanging onto M is believing things could turn around if she really got effective treatment for her depression. At this point though I don't expect it to bring her back to me. Probably will just get her the strength to divorce me.

OMG! Don't you want her to just live and be healthy? I suspect she can probably sense this type of attitude from you......which is not healthy for either of you.

I don't know what to think about W's depression. I am ashamed that my behavior worsened her depression, and that I didn't help her when she was depressed.

Take it seriously. Learn all that you can. You can't be angry at her for being depressed, when you don't even know what has caused it. You can't think selfishly about what you want.....or try to control her. You have to stop controlling. Even if she doesn't want to stay in the M.....you have to stop controlling.

It's one thing to play the victim card, but when she is considering suicide.....it's no game. I need to refresh my memory about your sitch, but I think this girl is crying out and maybe that could have been behind the PA, too. I hope medication helps, but she may need therapy, as well.

While she is in the hospital, don't GAL. Take care of your child, and visit your W......if she wants you there. Do NOT discuss the MR, or OM, or PA. This is not the time. Try to think of light hearted things and not discuss anything heavy. It is not necessary to talk about anything. Just being there, is enough.

I could just ask her if Love Bombing has been her experience. Of course that opens myself to more attacks and criticism, or could trigger more pain for her

This is not the time. It may have been a reference to something she's learned about OM. Stop taking everything so personally. You've got to keel out, while she is getting better. Frankly, I'm surprised she was allowed to have her phone (with FB, etc).

Nothing, even the M, is more important than her getting mentally healthier.

[STH17]

OMG! Don't you want her to just live and be healthy? I suspect she can probably sense this type of attitude from you......which is not healthy for either of you.

You are right, and what you are saying here is what W is telling me too. I tried to be respectful of the distance she wanted, but at the same time I always was trying to work on decreasing that distance, building trust to restore our MR. I didn't understand just how badly she was truly hurting, that she wasn't just angrily shutting me out, but really needed me gone so she could heal. I was still stuck on saving the marriage.

Take it seriously. Learn all that you can. You can't be angry at her for being depressed, when you don't even know what has caused it. You can't think selfishly about what you want.....or try to control her. You have to stop controlling. Even if she doesn't want to stay in the M.....you have to stop controlling.

It's one thing to play the victim card, but when she is considering suicide.....it's no game. I need to refresh my memory about your sitch, but I think this girl is crying out and maybe that could have been behind the PA, too. I hope medication helps, but she may need therapy, as well.

While she is in the hospital, don't GAL. Take care of your child, and visit your W......if she wants you there. Do NOT discuss the MR, or OM, or PA. This is not the time. Try to think of light hearted things and not discuss anything heavy. It is not necessary to talk about anything. Just being there, is enough.

She's been in therapy this whole time over the past six months. It seemed to have been helping, she was getting better, and our relationship seemed better. She went from leaving rooms when I entered them to actually coming into them when I was there. Not because I was there, but the fact she felt comfortable enough to do so was good I thought. That all fell apart when I asked her about the message I read on her phone. She was angry I was snooping, and I backed off of all the positive connection-building behaviors I had been implementing. I became a fearful person again in her presence, then was depressed for a week myself after the PA day.

Nothing, even the M, is more important than her getting mentally healthier.

I always thought the two did not have to be mutually exclusive. But I see how that belief can be controlling. From the very beginning of our separation I struggled with that very question of whether trying to save our marriage was manipulative when W made it clear she didn't want that. I think I need to let your words sink in some more.

So do I file jointly, or help her file by herself and act as the respondent? Either way, don't bring it up again until she does? That would be like I'm avoiding the conflict.

You say stop taking things so personally, yet here's W's shared FB post for today: "Apologies don't mean anything if you keep doing what you're sorry for"

I don't know what to do anymore. I was going to go rock climbing tonight to give W some space. Scratch that? And tomorrow morning is a men's group breakfast I normally go to a couple times a month. I could skip the breakfast and just take care of my son tomorrow morning. The partial hospitilization program starts tomorrow.

[sandi2]

So do I file jointly, or help her file by herself and act as the respondent? Either way, don't bring it up again until she does? That would be like I'm avoiding the conflict.

I would tell her that if she wants a D, you will sign the papers. She already knows you don't want it. This is just my opinion. Considering her mental health, I don't see how it saves the MR to refuse to cooperate with the paperwork. Let her go, and if she loves you.....she'll come back to you.

You say stop taking things so personally, yet here's W's shared FB post for today: "Apologies don't mean anything if you keep doing what you're sorry for"

Let me guess, she is addicted to FB. I bet she shares these type of sayings throughout each day. What if she meant to hit you smack in the face with it? Now what? Will it change anything?

I don't know what to do anymore. I was going to go rock climbing tonight to give W some space. Scratch that? And tomorrow morning is a men's group breakfast I normally go to a couple times a month. I could skip the breakfast and just take care of my son tomorrow morning. The partial hospitilization program starts tomorrow.

Well, I thought if she was having to stay in the hospital for depression or attempting suicide........it wasn't an ideal time to be GAL. But if she is on some type of out-patient program, I guess you could do whatever you planned. You did tell her you would keep son and/or make needed arrangements for him.

I thought she was still living in the house with you. You mentioned the separation, are you referring to in-house S?

[STH17]

Right now it is in-house separation, but it was out-of-house separation with me staying with friends from Dec. to Feb. During that time I would still pick up son to take him to preschool twice a week and visit him most evenings, then leave after putting him to bed. I "asked for what I wanted", to come back to the house, when I thought W was ready for it.

Let me guess, she is addicted to FB. I bet she shares these type of sayings throughout each day. What if she meant to hit you smack in the face with it? Now what? Will it change anything?

Yeah she's on FB all day long. She says it helps soothe her, especially if she is feeling anxious while we are having a conversation and I'm taking a while to respond. That's always bothered me, but my own therapist says I should let it go and not be controlling by asking her to put the phone down while we're talking. She posts things like that when she is more depressed or angry at me.

I think it's time for me to take the emotional abuse problem more seriously. There is no denying W feels abused by me. I just found a book I want to get from the library: The emotionally abusive relationship: how to stop being abused and how to stop abusing, by Beverly Engel. I shouldn't be trying to save my marriage without really focusing on eliminating all behavior of mine that may be emotionally abusive. And that's going to require an apology letter. I don't know when, I wish I'd done it already, but that probably still would have been premature, which is why I haven't done anything yet. And as W has said, I should not be asking her to have a better marriage with me without me first making amends for the abuse she has felt. Even if I do that, she doesn't owe me a second chance or anything. Our marriage is just over. Seems like I might as well file jointly.

[mtb1981]

What wxactly have you done that would be considered emotional abuse? The reason I ask is because my W throws the term around rather loosely. Anytime I disagreed with her, I was being emotionally abusive...

[STH17]

What wxactly have you done that would be considered emotional abuse? The reason I ask is because my W throws the term around rather loosely. Anytime I disagreed with her, I was being emotionally abusive...

That's the question I've been agonizing over this whole time since our marriage counselor (who is now W's individual therapist) said my behavior was emotional abuse. I don't have time to list everything now but that's something I need to make time to do soon. Usually when I think about the list I do think of justifications/rationalizations for my behavior, which just traps me in a loop of questioning whether it was really abuse or not. Like you say, to disagree that it was abuse amounts to abuse.

[SteveLW]

FTR, I believe, and have heard other experts and psychologists say the same thing, that emotional abuse and verbal abuse are used way too liberally nowadays. My W has said leveled the same accusation at me, yet I haven't been half as emotionally abusive nor verbally abusive as she has been. I honestly think that if your actions hurt their feelings (emotional abuse) or if your words hurt their feelings (verbal abuse) then they default to this stance.

For anyone reading this that has been the victim of emotional and/or verbal abuse, please know I am not suggesting there is no such thing. Just that when someone uses it when it doesn't apply it waters down the actual emotional and verbal abuse that actually does occur.

[mtb1981]

I should have been more clear. It was anytime I disagreed with her on anything, she considered it emotional abuse. If she did not get what she wanted, and I stuck up for myself and stood my ground, she considered it emotional abuse. Funny thing is, during these arguments, she was the one that would do the cussing and name calling, not me. Yet, in her mind, I was the one being emotionally abusive. I think the term gets thrown around very loosely by a lot of people because it is not as easily identified as other types of abuse like physical or sexual...

[SteveLW]

I should have been more clear. It was anytime I disagreed with her on anything, she considered it emotional abuse. If she did not get what she wanted, and I stuck up for myself and stood my ground, she considered it emotional abuse. Funny thing is, during these arguments, she was the one that would do the cussing and name calling, not me. Yet, in her mind, I was the one being emotionally abusive. I think the term gets thrown around very loosely by a lot of people because it is not as easily identified as other types of abuse like physical or sexual...

As I said, if your actions (emotional) or words (verbal) hurt their feelings than in their minds it must be abuse. And a lot of counselors are idiots for throwing those terms around so lightly. A counselor worth their salt would be very careful using the word abuse.

[sandi2]

That's always bothered me, but my own therapist says I should let it go and not be controlling by asking her to put the phone down while we're talking

Well, I see this ^^^^as requiring a certain amount of respect during a conversation. But maybe that's just me.

Addiction comes in many forms. The person will turn to their addiction to calm or excite.....it makes no difference.

I shouldn't be trying to save my marriage without really focusing on eliminating all behavior of mine that may be emotionally abusive. And that's going to require an apology letter.

Read the book, first.

Does your therapist agree that you have controlling tendencies?

IMHO, you need to see "how" you may have been emotionally abusive. Writing an apology letter won't be worth a pinch of salt if you can't identify "how" you tried to control her. Recognizing what you did and how you did it, is essential in changing. Then, write her an apology letter from that view of knowing and deeply regretting how you treated her.

I hope you will do this as a means of fixing yourself, and hopefully, preventing futher abusive behavior. I believe it is critical to the healing, if there is to ever be a future together.