Affair, no feelings...is there hope? IV

[sandi2]

If it isn't perfect she is stressed and bothered.

My mom was a perfectionist, and I became very much like her.......which I know, now, must have driven my H crazy. If company was expected, my family dreaded living with me while I prepared everything to be just perfect. I have overcome a lot of those tendicies. But I do understand how it could affect your W. But guess what? It is the perfectionist's problem. It should not be the spouse's problem, too. However, it becomes the spouse's problem, just trying to figure out how to live with her.

You've said no matter how much you clean the house, or even if she says it looks good......it doesn't seem to make her happy. I learned that it is important to men that their W is happy. I also learned it is up to the individual to make themselves happy. You will probably never make your W happy though cleaning the house. You can only do your best, as a way of sharing responsibility and showing you do care. The rest is up to her. You will feel defeated every time, if you see this as way of making her happy. It just ain't gonna happen! However, if you feel you've done the best you could in the allotted time you had and the conditions or whatever, then that should be your measuring stick to use.

This may be necessary in order for you to live with her in some kind of peaceful environment......but, don't do it expecting to make your W happy. Make sense? She can be glad, mad, or sad. It's up to her, just as long as she doesn't take it out on you. And, if she does, then you call her out. You don't jump in to help her do something else she finds to clean after your hard work. Apparently, this is some type of thing she has to do......but if it is OCD or whatever, it is her issue, not yours. Don't make it yours.

Whatever her inner problems are that causes her unhappiness, she'll have to figure it out, other than blaming it on you, or expecting you to "make" her feel a certain way.

But it does sort of amaze me how little tolerance she has for dog hair despite her love for dogs. I don't like it either, but it is a huge, daily battle that is just reality with the dogs we have. It will never be completely hair free and you could kill yourself trying

True, but she just can't deal with in the same logical way that you do. It's like she loves the dogs, but get upset at them (or you) for shedding hair. I'm glad they are not just your dogs you brought into the relationship, b/c that would not have been a good situation.

She feels I am applying pressure and pushing my "angle". She doesn't think there is a way to try without feeling guilt or obligation. Then, some random super specific stuff: She doesn't have fun doing projects with me. I shut her down and make her feel like I'll listen to her ideas but always think mine are better. If I do give her the reigns, I just ask what to do next like a child. I'm not spontaneous enough and she feels she has lost all her motivation to do anything. She said I take forever and worry about things like brushing my teeth first thing or spend too long looking at my iPad before getting out of bed. We can never go anywhere straight away.

This is just superficial stuff she is finding as excuses. Any MC worth their weight in salt could help with these issues. She could read almost any marriage help book and learn how to deal with this shallow stuff. IDK what she'll do if you guys should have a major problem to hit (not saying her cheating isn't major enough).

She is also trying to manipulate you into giving her the MBR. Just tell her she is welcome to sleep in the bed with you, but you are not leaving it. Don't go into explanations. I suggest that you go several days without addressing any issues you've recently covered. If she brings it up......you can listen. If you have to give an answer or response, keep it short & sweet.

I also have a feeling she is going to bring up the workout class when I go tomorrow (it hasn't come up again, should I still tell her no if she asks to join?)

That's up to you. If you think it could draw you closer, then go for it. If you don't want her along, then maybe you should go at a different time. Here's what I am thinking, 44. She is not totally reconciled to coming around to what you want, but she could be showing a lot worse behavior and being much colder than she's been since returning from the trip. So, you might want to consider it. The workout could take some of that b'tchiness out of her and benefit in several other ways. Know what I mean? Play it by ear.

Still no sign she has any contact with OM. She hasn't touched her phone much at all since she's been home. But I have to admit the separate sleeping thing has made me slightly suspicious; maybe it's just a big deal symbolically for her and she isn't ready to go there. IDK

Well, she may take it deeper underground. Try not to be obsessed about it. If she's contacting him, she'll slip up eventually.

Have you considered reading a book on time management, or taking a workshop or something that would help you with your individual problem of hyper-focusing?

I wouldn't say you need to prove to your W your assignments, etc, and I'm not suggesting you wait to do it in front of her. However, you could mention to her in daily conversation what you had to study or how much time was spent on your study/assignments that day. (Look at your clock when you start and again when you finish the work). And, if she ever gets in one of her "work" moods or sulks, you can always tell her you have to study/homework.......and then leave her with it. Make sense? As talkative as you were, I assumed you probably discussed it, but I could see her considering it "boring" or over her head. I just think you have nothing much to do all day, and she wants to keep you busy. Some people simply can't stand to think about their S not working at something when they aren't together. Crazy, but true.

I think she has grown to expect all your time to be spent on her....some way, some how. Yes, this is partly your fault, b/c she is spoiled. When she is home, she expects 100% of your attention. That's why she doesn't want you on the computer/phone....but thinks it's fine for her. First, try leading by example. If she doesn't follow, then I suggest you might bring it up in causal conversation. See if she would agree that whenever watching tv together, eating together, or other things together......that neither of you use that time for phone or IPad activity. (Electronics should not be carried to the table when eating). Not as a way to control, but out of consideration. It is highly rude manners, IMHO, but I am old school.

[SteveLW]

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

Just when I thought I had heard everything that was profound already, someone come along with something amazing like this. YES SO TRUE! We expect our WS/WASs to just drop something they took weeks and sometimes months getting into, but we can't drop them! I will remember that one. How can we expect them to let go but we can't let go. TY for that one Zues!

[RR17]

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

Just when I thought I had heard everything that was profound already, someone come along with something amazing like this. YES SO TRUE! We expect our WS/WASs to just drop something they took weeks and sometimes months getting into, but we can't drop them! I will remember that one. How can we expect them to let go but we can't let go. TY for that one Zues!

Not debating the merits, But they did make the choice to get involved. We were forced into it. Big difference.

[Nutcrac]

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

Sandi2 / Experts - wanted to know what should be the redponse to the above statement?

[44tries]

What Doodler said.

Very well articulated. Yes, her emotions are all over the place. This is why she can't be the one leading here.

Suppose you knew she'd never change at ALL (which is in fact essentially what she's tried to tell you). Would you continue to emotionally invest? Of course not. You are doing this in hope that it will change her feelings and behavior and then frustrated when it doesn't. This is not detachment. It's like you are a director have this movie script in your mind that YOUR role is to become a better H, and HER role is to recommit to the M and discover that she can fall back in love with you. But she told you "No, 44, I'm not playing that part." And yet you go on saying "Maybe if I just pay her the 14 million she'll show up and star in my movie anyway" and then you get impatient or surprised or upset that she doesn't.

Moving out and filing D doesn't have to happen today and that's not even the most important thing. The priority is for you to get a new movie script. One that centers around you alone. One that is down a path of increasing detachment and independence. One that doesn't hinge on WW because she has told you not to count on her. One that can flex for different contingencies but isn't reliant on them.

Essentially you focus on you, don't invest anything into WW. Be a better person for you. Take charge of your own life and happiness. Like doodler said, build a life so fulfilling that whether she wants to be part of it or not is inconsequential. When is the right time to file D and separate? Well, at some point when you have a new life built the old life can be released like a snake shedding it's skin. Neither with malice or regret, but just because it has stopped becoming useful.

I'd recommend much more time invested in GAL activity, much less focus on your WW. As long as you evaluate that quality of your life by how easy it is to interpret occasional hints of affection out of her confused emotional turbulence as a 'positive sign' you are floundering. When you get to the point that you just shrug because you don't need her drama in your life then you are doing it the right way.

One thing I always say to LBS's is this: How can you expect them to let go of OM, if you can't let go of WW? Seriously. Think about it. You want her to do the growth because you're not strong enough to? Someone has to lead and it can't be her. Show her what strength and detachment is. And then get to the point where you don't care if she learns or not. You can do this.

This is an amazing post, Zeus. Thank you. It so accurately describes the struggle and what the right path really is. I completely hear what you all are saying, and know that my primary goal is really to go on a self improvement journey for myself and that's the best thing I can do for the MR at this point. And that journey is filled with detachment and increased independence. I have taken a lot of big steps and will continue to take more in this direction. The problem is that is so much easier said than done. The hardest thing is the part I bolded about not investing anything in WW. Living together like we are this becomes an incredibly big challenge. But I completely subscribe to the principle and am working toward it everyday.

[44tries]

Ok,

So I hope you are listening to Zues, becauseif you can apply what he is saying, it will truly change your life and the path you walk from this moment forward.

My IC talked a lot about two people bringing their best to a M in order to make it work, but the big idea I took away from it was that I need to build my own pillar. If I'm not meeting my own needs, how can I meet another person's needs?

This is perfectly stated. Makes total sense and captures the message of the others' posts in a nutshell.

Here's the other thing I want to mention, and I'm sure you'll get feedback from others here on this as well...

The cuddling and taking showers is your W's way of figuring out if she still can have that affection she needs from you, but it's actually a really big temp check, she's just not looking at it that way.

You've done all this work explaining to her how she needs to either recommit, or D. She heard your message, understood where your boundaries were and then you just let your wall down.

If she "doesn't know" what she wants, why does she get the benefit of all the R stuff?

Would you let your roommate climb in the shower with you? Until she can verbalize her commitment and show you the work, she really shouldn't be getting R benefits.

If it was me, the first thing I would've said when she climbed in the shower is, "So what's happening here? You told me you didn't know what you wanted and you think it's ok to climb in the shower with me?"

YOU have worth, man! Don't let yourself get pulled around like that!

It's kind of like that "why buy the cow when you can get get the milk for free" principle.

T

So, this is my exact internal struggle. I totally get what you're saying, the cow/milk analogy is a perfect illustration. And I don't want to give the milk for free. But, then if I go the other direction I run into issues like your shower example, for instance. It sounds good and sets a boundary, but I'm essentially bringing up an R talk all the time, creating a lot of tension, and just feels like it applies pressure I'm supposed to be taking off by DBing. Maybe I'm just being weak, IDK. But that's why I struggle with putting the principle to practice. I feel like I constantly get stuck.

[44tries]

My mom was a perfectionist, and I became very much like her.......which I know, now, must have driven my H crazy. If company was expected, my family dreaded living with me while I prepared everything to be just perfect. I have overcome a lot of those tendicies. But I do understand how it could affect your W. But guess what? It is the perfectionist's problem. It should not be the spouse's problem, too. However, it becomes the spouse's problem, just trying to figure out how to live with her.

You've said no matter how much you clean the house, or even if she says it looks good......it doesn't seem to make her happy. I learned that it is important to men that their W is happy. I also learned it is up to the individual to make themselves happy. You will probably never make your W happy though cleaning the house. You can only do your best, as a way of sharing responsibility and showing you do care. The rest is up to her. You will feel defeated every time, if you see this as way of making her happy. It just ain't gonna happen! However, if you feel you've done the best you could in the allotted time you had and the conditions or whatever, then that should be your measuring stick to use.

This may be necessary in order for you to live with her in some kind of peaceful environment......but, don't do it expecting to make your W happy. Make sense? She can be glad, mad, or sad. It's up to her, just as long as she doesn't take it out on you. And, if she does, then you call her out. You don't jump in to help her do something else she finds to clean after your hard work. Apparently, this is some type of thing she has to do......but if it is OCD or whatever, it is her issue, not yours. Don't make it yours.

Whatever her inner problems are that causes her unhappiness, she'll have to figure it out, other than blaming it on you, or expecting you to "make" her feel a certain way.

This is such an important concept and was a great reminder.

True, but she just can't deal with in the same logical way that you do. It's like she loves the dogs, but get upset at them (or you) for shedding hair. I'm glad they are not just your dogs you brought into the relationship, b/c that would not have been a good situation.

I love your insights, Sandi. They help me get away from own narrow perspective and try to see through my W's.

This is just superficial stuff she is finding as excuses. Any MC worth their weight in salt could help with these issues. She could read almost any marriage help book and learn how to deal with this shallow stuff. IDK what she'll do if you guys should have a major problem to hit (not saying her cheating isn't major enough).

She is also trying to manipulate you into giving her the MBR. Just tell her she is welcome to sleep in the bed with you, but you are not leaving it. Don't go into explanations. I suggest that you go several days without addressing any issues you've recently covered. If she brings it up......you can listen. If you have to give an answer or response, keep it short & sweet.

I agree and that's why it's frustrating she won't even try. Anyway, this is exactly what I have done/am planning to do. I've made it clear I'm not leaving the bed, but she is welcome to sleep in it and I am not to be blamed for her being banished to the spare room. I don't plan on addressing any issues and just seeing how settling in goes. Like you said, one day at a time.

That's up to you. If you think it could draw you closer, then go for it. If you don't want her along, then maybe you should go at a different time. Here's what I am thinking, 44. She is not totally reconciled to coming around to what you want, but she could be showing a lot worse behavior and being much colder than she's been since returning from the trip. So, you might want to consider it. The workout could take some of that b'tchiness out of her and benefit in several other ways. Know what I mean? Play it by ear.

This is very helpful, thank you. I do think it is something she would really enjoy and appreciate me for introducing her to it. But it is a significant GAL activity and I go back to that internal struggle I just discussed in the above post. I would love her to join me and I do think it could draw us closer, but I don't know if it would be a detriment to my personal goals (detachment, etc).

Your sentence in bold is exactly how I feel.

Well, she may take it deeper underground. Try not to be obsessed about it. If she's contacting him, she'll slip up eventually.

Exactly.

Have you considered reading a book on time management, or taking a workshop or something that would help you with your individual problem of hyper-focusing?

Yes, and I plan to dive into a couple shortly. I have dabbled with resources for it before and there is a lot out there. It is definitely something I plan to address.

I wouldn't say you need to prove to your W your assignments, etc, and I'm not suggesting you wait to do it in front of her. However, you could mention to her in daily conversation what you had to study or how much time was spent on your study/assignments that day. (Look at your clock when you start and again when you finish the work). And, if she ever gets in one of her "work" moods or sulks, you can always tell her you have to study/homework.......and then leave her with it. Make sense? As talkative as you were, I assumed you probably discussed it, but I could see her considering it "boring" or over her head. I just think you have nothing much to do all day, and she wants to keep you busy. Some people simply can't stand to think about their S not working at something when they aren't together. Crazy, but true.

These thoughts are really helpful.

I think she has grown to expect all your time to be spent on her....some way, some how. Yes, this is partly your fault, b/c she is spoiled. When she is home, she expects 100% of your attention. That's why she doesn't want you on the computer/phone....but thinks it's fine for her. First, try leading by example. If she doesn't follow, then I suggest you might bring it up in causal conversation. See if she would agree that whenever watching tv together, eating together, or other things together......that neither of you use that time for phone or IPad activity. (Electronics should not be carried to the table when eating). Not as a way to control, but out of consideration. It is highly rude manners, IMHO, but I am old school.

This is a great idea. I have already tried this a bit and can tell that when I don't touch my electronics, she is hesitant to touch hers. Or if I do, she will follow right away. It is actually kind of a fun experiment that reminds me of some of the "core" techniques MWD writes about in DR.


In other news, she slept in the bed last night. I don't know if it means she will continue to, but I have felt she was teetering closer and closer on this issue since she got back. She came in so we could get travel plan and we spent a few hours researching and booking a trip for a few weeks from now (comically, we are taking a trip to Paris. Also going a couple other places). Then, we let the dogs out and locked up for the night and she just came back to the bed. :shrug:

[44tries]

Oops forgot to bold the sentence I referenced...She is not totally reconciled to coming around to what you want, but she could be showing a lot worse behavior and being much colder than she's been since returning from the trip.

[44tries]

She slept in the bed again last night, but announced it was only because she was "afraid she might die from the paint fumes" in hers (I think they are doing work next door). We also finalized a few details of our trip and she brought up the fact that our hotels only had one bed, etc. and wanted to make sure I wasn't getting any ideas that the trip was something it wasn't. I told her I just wanted to have a fun vacation.

She has a four day weekend for Memorial Day. I am going to try to make sure I am GALing and doing some things that don't revolve around her. I've decided to approach GAL with the mindset that if she wants to join, okay, but I will be doing it either way. It's too easy to get caught up doing something with her and let my own stuff slide. So I'm working on this.

In some ways, everything is much more difficult now that the A is exposed/over. I was doing much better with detachment and focusing on myself before, probably in part because she was much less focused on me and it was easier to get away. I also had a good source of anger and the reality of what was going on helped keep my eye on moving on and not giving up, but not holding on to hope. Now, I know I must keep working toward becoming the spouse only a fool would leave, but I feel I'm treading water (and burning precious time).

I am still really struggling with Sandi's line I bolded in the post directly above, and trying to follow everyone's advice (detach, don't let her cake-eat, etc). My fear of rocking the boat has returned. Not all of it--I can still stand up to her disrespect. But during times when she is just being friendly, I no longer have the "excuse" that she is seeing someone else so we can't be working on the MR. I am constantly conflicted; maybe I will just re-read the detachment thread ten more times because I know it isn't the same as pushing her away.

She talks about wanting to feel like she can breathe and be apart, but how it can't happen when we live together because both our feelings get hurt. If I do things on my own, she feels abandoned. If she does her own things, she feels guilty. I feel like she has so many "wrong" ideas...and then I remember how she always felt I think she's wrong.

[sandi2]

Originally Posted By: sandi2

WW: "I couldn't wait to get back home and be with you. I wanted us to make love and tell you how sorry I was for everything. I dreamed of us taking a little trip......like a second honeymoon, to start over. Then I get here and find you cold and hateful, yelling ultimatums at me, before I can even tell you how I feel. But.....I guess my feelings aren't important to you. Maybe you are right. Maybe we should just get a divorce".

Sandi2 / Experts - wanted to know what should be the redponse to the above statement?

LBH: "I'm sorry that's how you feel".