Withdrawal, The Worst Stage Yet?

[job]

I am posting an exchange I had with my H. It is so confusing to me because we do share a house and biz and he doesn't really know what is going on; but it is because he left us (not in body but in spirit) and I had to make my own way. I had to hide a lot from him when he was spending out of control, having an A, etc. Now he is claiming that I am hiding "his" money from him. Really I am just servicing our endless debt by myself and trying to save our house from foreclosure. He is completely out of touch with everything else-- our son not going to school and me trying to find a private school, the court case I am in by myself from the business we had together and which I tried to sell, the mortgage problems, just everything!

The problem is that I want to totally detach but how is this possible when finances are concerned and I don't want to get/initiate a D? It is impossible! I end up replying to him to try to keep everything in the open and my words are always twisted of course. I put "Gerds" there because he keeps calling me by my nickname.

I would love to hear Job especially explain how to not engage in this situation when our finances are so connected. I would gladly buy him out but have no money and may be about to have to sell the house if I can't figure out how to pay off more debt faster. Here is the exchange, but you have to start from the bottom and work your way up.

[i]You are not the sole source of my sorrow. We each stir each others much older wounds. I have said it many times, but I am sorry for anything I did to hurt you. I didn't say I wouldn't talk to you. I just said I am scared to. If you want to do bills with me, just do it with me. I told you many times I do it on Fridays.

From: H Gerds, I am really sorry that you feel, as you say, extremely anxious; around me and;scared to talk; to me or receive an e-mail from; me, but you recognize (I can only hope) that though, as you say, that you;are not the source of [my] pain,you are ready-quick to characterize me; the moment I gesture to have a simple-humble non-combative conversation about money and kids and home; as the source of your feelings of fear [that are] visceral.

How, Gerds, is that you are entirely freed from being, as you say, the source of my sorrow and I on the other hand am the sole source of your extreme fear, anxiety, etc? You realize that the resultant default and iron-clad Rule set by you around the house is, in your own words, that when I can suppress and push down concerns that are to me of weight and importance then you can start to enjoy being around me: in other words, if I say what you want to hear I am the source of your enjoyment and by contrast if I say what I want to say then I am the source of your extreme anxiousness and fear of being around me. What you are saying to me, laying down as law, is this: say only I want to hear and no matter how nice or gentle or calm you are in what you wish to express, if you say what I don't want to hear, I will immediately accuse you of being the source of my extreme anxiety and fear of being around you.

Gerda, this way in which we now relate and in which we have always related in which I am the one (and not the only one!) who has been terrified to address you with any item that is of real importance to me is deranged and dysfunctional on both sides. Hereafter, I am forced to only speak to you thru another (third) party. I can't engage you like this any more. -H

Gerda wrote: I understand your feelings of worthlessness and rejection, and I pray for God to heal your wounds and protect you every day. I don't believe I am the true source of that pain, but whatever the truth is, only God can heal our wounds. I try not to make you the source of my happiness or sorrow. I know it's very hard. I struggle with forgiveness but I try to do it daily, hourly if I need to. If we just start from this moment in history --The fact is that I am extremely anxious around you and scared to talk to you or receive an e-mail from you.

For a week or two after D's birthday I started to enjoy being with you and working on things together; but then you changed back into someone who scares me. I am not afraid of physical hurt; but my feeling of fear is visceral. I would love to hang out with you if we could agree to have no talk of relationship or money, but since that never happens, I get too scared to even start a conversation. All the bills are set to go out on Fridays so on Friday mornings, I put in whatever I can afford to make up the difference and then cancel anything we can't afford to pay. I use the joint account to make family/guesthouse purchases since I contribute almost all my salary to the account. Anything for just me, I use my own account or transfer money in to cover it. The login name is X and the password is X.

H wrote: Gerda, why does your brother have to be present for a tutorial about the running of our shared businesses / properties? It's only that I've felt and let myself to be kept out of these zones; including other zones of our lives and I just want to get a clearer more responsible sense of what they are, and to find a deeper involvement in their unfolding. I'm inclined to express; as you may incline to express to me, to others, what you wish that I have been hurt by the subtle ways in which the waitresses/ cooks at the cafe (as well as D and S) where habituated to understand your word as the Last Word and my words as minor, insignificant, ancillary. I have only ever wanted to actually feel an equal journeyer and loved for the sorts of approaches and for the easefullness that I try to embody towards life and living. The fire of love can only live on the oxygenated air that is the shared experience of authentic equality. Naturally, I crave a human fellow-feeling predicated on an ethos in which not my word is the Last Word nor your word is the Last Word. I will understand if you want someone in attendance for the tutorial but I can't have it be your brother. We'd have to wait till I can pay a professional advisor. Let me know which route. -H

[job]

Gerda,

Please stick to one thread until you have reached 100 postings/replies. I have merged your two threads together because you only have 49 postings on the original thread.

Also, I noticed that you have contractions, special characters and numbers in the posting. Please try to refrain from using special characters and keep your postings to a shorter version until management figures out what the issues are with the mainframe recognizing the various characters, etc.

The next time your posting doesn't appear, go back to that particular posting and see if you can click on the quick reply button. If you can, do so, and remove all of the quotes at the beginning and end of your posting and then hit submit. I want to see if that will work for you.

[Gerda]

OK, thank you, Job. I forgot about that rule. I started a new thread because I wanted advice and felt like no one was following my thread because of the title! Will be glad to hear any thoughts.

[job]

Gerda,

Here's my take on the conversations that took place recently between you and your h. Others may not agree, but I think you need to take a giant step back and allow him to mull things over. The conversations sound like you may be going round and round on how you both feel. I sense from what he stated, that he resents you in many ways, i.e., if what he says is true, then you are sounding more like his authority figure/mother, than a spouse. If you have had these conversations before, then nip step back, allow him to mull things over. Both of you are very strong willed people and each of you sees your situation differently and no matter what, you both will continue to feel the way you do until something changes.

Continuing to defend yourself, your feelings and actions may be telling him that you aren't really listening to him. MLC is all about him, not you. Yes, you are hurt, frustrated and disgusted, but it's time that Gerda focus on herself and do what she needs to do for herself, her family and the business. Actions speak louder than words. Sometimes the best advice we give is to do and say nothing and just leave them entirely to themselves for a while.

As for the business, you both have stated how you feel about the bills and paying them. He knows that you sit down on Fridays and do the bills, etc. You've explained why you want your brother involved in the tutorial, but he does make good sense in wanting a professional advisor present, someone who is impartial to both parties. I would suggest that you listen to him on this one. Sometimes we have to choose our battles in order to win the war.

You've stated when you work on the finances, now it's up to him to come to you on Fridays, sit down and go over the bills, etc. You've put the ball back in his court...leave it there.

For now, sit quietly and allow the answers to come to you. Do not engage in any more discussions about the relationship for now. Let that sleeping dog sleep for a bit. Please try to remember that you can't rationalize w/someone who isn't rational or doesn't want to hear what you have to say.

BTW, I am going to clean up your posting as it's difficult to follow with all of the hashtags and numbers in it.

[Gerda]

Hi, Job. Thank you so much for posting. I agree that I need to step back but I think that my posting that letter without explanation may have made it unclear so I wanted to ask you for one clarification about your advice. I am really sorry this is so long, I don't know how to make it shorter. I really apologize, but I am trying to understand how to do what you are advising me to do.

My husband did not want to meet with an advisor. He wanted to meet alone with me, and I was scared to do that. He has been saying that as soon as he has money, he will get an advisor to "finally" figure out what I am doing wrong with our business that it makes him no money for himself. Sometimes he presents this as part of a divorce and sometimes it's just for himself to "feel the fabric of what he owns" with me. Our business covers our mortgage but not our massive debts (some of which are from MLC and some from our other biz that I had to sell when MLC destroyed that too ). He makes very little money and gives me none, so I have to pay everything myself for me and the kids and all family debts/expenses. I put all my income into our joint account, which pays anything of mortgage and debts not covered by business income. When I met him, he had a lot of debt and I helped him get out of it. We shared all accounts, all everything until bomb drop. When MLC began, he gave me these same speeches about my being controlling, etc, so I gave him all my credit cards, etc., not understanding what was happening. He took money daily from our business and he spent tens of thousands of dollars on my cards. Over time I cut off his access to my cards and tried to pick up the pieces of everything else and he stopped trying to be part of either of our businesses, even after I had cancer.

My H has rewritten that time period post BD too, and now says it was all my fault for pushing him out of business, family, fathering, etc.

Now I have been sharing with him the income and expense totals but without access to accounts/cards. That is why I am so scared of having to show him everything again and have him start trying to answer client e-mails with his crazy addled mind, or take money out of the accounts for himself, etc.

And then I am just scared of being alone with him. Even If I am home when he is, and I allow a casual conversation to start, without fail, every single day, even if we started out just talking about literature or what kind of grains he likes to cook, or some other stupid topic like shampoo (all things he never talked about before), it always ends with him suddenly reading some part of the conversation as evidence of his fury at me and he starts telling me that he won't go on like this, with no money, and that something has to change, meaning, to liquidate our house and the business in our house. We sometimes rent out our apartment and leave town so we can make money, and he keeps demanding I do this and give him money and when I ask where I would go with the kids, he says we can go to a motel. He can't obviously see all I have done to hold the family and house together or how hard I work to make enough to barely scrape by. He just says it's my fault for refusing to sell the house and that I am creating this problem.

I want to take a huge step back, that is what I am asking about here, how to do that. Because we live together, and because we own this house that is a business (a guesthouse with rentals below and us above),there is no escape from his constant demands for discussion, for money, for selling the house, etc. It is sort of monster stage again.

A month ago he was demanding a divorce, then suddenly he announced he wanted to be a husband and father "while still living here" and was great for two weeks, then he went back to not helping and disappearing and demanding I sell the house again and telling me how he could never return to the marriage. Then the next day he'll be hurt and offended that I went to see friends and he "wasn't invited." My son is refusing to go to school and often won't leave the house for days, but my H is of course unable to face that and just ignores it. I am on the brink of foreclosure, and I am working five part-time jobs with no help at all even cleaning the house or walking the dog. But when I suggest he go to our rental upstate or otherwise suggest time apart, he flips out and gets worse even while saying he is going to leave when he gets his money.

I am not saying this to vent but simply asking how I take a giant step back. I want to but I don't understand how. Because we own the house and biz together, I don't know how to refuse to answer. I go dark on everything else but how do I go dark on that?

This weekend I am out of town with my best friend and our daughters (a little scared the whole time that I left my son with H) and being away is just so wonderful, all the problems of my M seem so far away -- and so absurd! -- but I know I have to go back home tomorrow and I don't know what I will have to face when I get there.

I do notice that something in me must still be trying to fix things, but I just don't understand how to do the giant step back under these circumstances. The only thing you said that I thought, OK, I can do that, was to leave the ball in his court about Friday bills. He said he wouldn't speak to me anymore so maybe he won't, and the next I hear from him will be a lawyer. Or it could be that I come home and he chats with me and is coldly friendly until turning the conversation back toward money and selling our house. I can stay in my room and avoid him, but then he'll just send e-mails.

[job]

Gerda,

Have you tried to change the conversation when he brings up the subject of money, selling the home, etc? Sometimes just changing the subject on him will stop him in his tracks for a bit. Have you tried just simply saying "I'm sorry you feel the way that you do" and then change the subject or walk away? You do not need to sit there and take the verbal abuse from him. You have free will of walking away when the conversation turns hurtful w/his spew.

Yes, they do rewrite history and he's not going to admit that he's been the root of the spending issue. You, like all of us, are a fixer and this is something we can't fix, nor can we rescue them.

He's going to continue to "badger" you about the bills, funds, etc., hoping that you will get disgusted and say "enough" and do what he wants. He's like a child testing the boundaries of "mom". Yes, in his eyes you are controlling. You may not be, but, to him, you are mom and you aren't allowing "man/child" to have his way.

It's difficult living w/a man/child who can't see clearly, but you, on the other hand, are seeing things quite clearly and are living the life of walking on eggshells. I know exactly how you feel and so do others who have a MLCer living at home.

Have you ever thought of given him a written spreadsheet of what comes in and what goes out in the way of expenses? This might be one way to "show" him what is happening w/the funds. After giving him the document, if he continues to harp on the subject, refer him back to the spreadsheet. You do not need to continue to defend yourself about the money, etc., just refer him back to the spreadsheet. Going round and round w/him about such things is getting old and no matter how you slice it, your funds can only go so far. As the old saying goes, you can't get blood out of a turnip and that saying applies to just how far money will go as well. There is no magic well spewing money out to the world.

Continue to leave that ball in is court about the advisor. You can't fix what you didn't break. No matter what you do, he will still be a miserable man/child.

Have you read any of HaWho's postings? She has mastered the art of living w/a live in MLCer who has now flown the coop. He lived in the dorm room for quite some time and had issues w/monitoring funds, etc.

[HaWho]

Gerda - as you are asking about a way to take a giant step back, I have some suggestions you may want to try.

Regarding your son, may I ask what he does all day at home when he is not at school? Having a teenaged boy myself I know that left to their own devices, they often opt to do a heavy amount of loafing around. If this is the case, may I suggest that you kindly explain to your son that your role in the household is to provide for his needs (emotional and financial) and that you are working hard to do so. His role is to go to school so that he can become a productive contributor to society as he has a place in this world and the world will need need him.

Should he choose not to do his job (go to school and work hard) then he needs to contribute at home because he is able to do so and we all need to contribute in some way when we can. For example, he should walk the dog and do cleaning on days he decides not to do his job by going to school. He should cook dinner. I I find leaving lists works better than asking for things to get done. Perhaps start with a small list to ease him into it and add to it every few days. "Here is what you need to do today for chores and please have it done by x time." Then a text mid day saying "just want to remind you about the chores and thank you for pitching in! Love you."

The basic idea is to try to make him more uncomfortable being at home so that school is a more appealing option. Right now home is clearly more comfortable. This will lighten your load, too. In no way should it be an option to sit around and do nothing as he has much to contribute either at school (the preference) or at home. Also, being more industrious may help lift him out of the doldrums. (Walking the dog would be particularly good for him.). And this is a way for you to take a step back from all that you do.

As for your h, I like the idea of the spreadsheet that Job suggested. Your h is clearly all over the map so talking with him is a giant sinkhole. A great way to take a step back is to refer him to the spreadsheet and walk out of the room. If you are scared to be alone in a room with him because of where the conversation is headed, leave rooms when he walks in. Or if you have to be in the same room, maybe put headphones on and politely tell him you're listening to a book or a TED talk etc. You need not be available because no matter what you say, it will be wrong.

Is there anyway you could swing having your h go to the upstate rental and giving him some money each month? From my years living with my MLCer, the problem I saw is that as long as I stayed in his orbit, I remained the source of all his problems. I think space apart would be the ideal way to try to outlast this. Could you borrow some money from a family member and a few friends to make this happen?

Is your h home all day also and not contributing to the finances at all?

[Gerda]

Job and HaWho -- I will write more later this week, on a deadline and just back in town after a weekend away so I am picking up the pieces! But wanted to tell you both thank you so much for taking all that time to give me advice. I am printing it out and will read it many times over til it sinks in. Will write more later.

HaWho -- my H is rarely home during the day, he is exercising many hours and when schools is in session he teaches as an adjunct (leaving almost 5 months a year when he is not working at all) and always works on his dissertation (for ten years now, he started over with new topic at BD). I am not sure if there is an A going on but the other one went on for a long while and no doubt took a lot of his time. My H has not contributed to the finances or helped with the work of our house or rental business since BD. He stopped working at our other biz as MLC intensified and was just taking money from it but not helping; but then I finally sold it to end that misery. I will write more later about your other questions/ideas. Thanks again for taking the time to write to me! I have read some of your threads too and we do have some things in common for sure.

[DnJ]

Hello Gerda. I am thinking about you, following along.

You are one busy lady and have a lot on your plate. You also have a lot of strength and conviction. I was glad to read that you were away for the weekend. I do hope you got a break from all the stress.

I agree with you, H does not make a very good business partner right now. Good idea to keep him away from the client emails.

I do like the spreadsheet idea. It would be a nice way to deflect some of that anger and maybe stop or diminish those circular conversation regarding finances.

[Gordie]

Gerda

Keep H far away from the money

Does your boy have other male authority figures in his life