[s]No[/s] affair, no feelings...is there hope? III

[44tries]

Previous threads:

Part I: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2783627#Post2783627
Part II: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2785704#Post2785704

[44tries]

Okay, I am getting a better picture of your personality. Which means, my original gut feeling was on track.

Happy to hear this .

Having a sense of timing, is important when using lighthearted comebacks.....else you'll just look stupid. Actually, you are sending a strong message, but doing it in a way that if she makes a scene, it makes her look very foolish and childish. The objective is for her to stop the self entitlement behavior and start respecting her H as a man who is not solely dependent on her or her paycheck. Perhaps I didn't word that correctly. I don't mean that you are trying to control her, but it is your way of handling the situation, without defensive type over-explanations, and without over accommodation.

I know exactly what you mean here. And these types of comebacks are definitely a good alternative to my over-explaining, while still being well suited for my personality.

The lighthearted comebacks are to be used at a different time than when she assaults you with these tantrums. And, should she suddenly go into a tantrum when you've used a comeback remark.....then immediately switch into serious mode.

Agreed.

I think the next time she refers to bringing home the paycheck, you need to immediately address it.

You: "Let me make something perfectly clear. Just b/c you currently bring home the paycheck, does not mean I work for you!"

I can think of so much more to add, but I'm sure you can, as well. However, you are trying to minimize your words, so make them count.

I will say exactly this the next time she mentions it--which probably won't be long. You are right, I can think of so much more to add too. But I'll keep it short and come up with other versions for when she undoubtedly repeats herself.

When I referred to losing your cool, I meant that you've spent so much time & energy catering to her and trying to have a happy W that she never sees you angry. There is such a thing as being too laid back. She has trampled over you and she sees you take cover. I use to do the same thing with my H. He would not get in my face and tell me off. He just wouldn't do anything........so, I treated him worse, and worse. It's as if a woman will keep pushing to see how much a man will take before he finally gets enough to fight back. BTW, my H doesn't let me speak to him in that disrespectful manner anymore.

Respond in an authoritoritive manner. If you are sitting down at the time she starts bashing, then stand up (not threatening, but not retreating). Stand as tall and straight as you can. (Practice this when she's not home, and practice different scenarios and your responses). Don't shout at her, but use a strong, manly tone of voice. You may not be in the military, but this is your domain, so speak with a tone & volume level that shows that you are in charge. The objective here is not to make her happy. Forget her happiness. That will fall into place, once you start acting like the man she needs. I know you can't see it, but her actions are begging for you to stand up to her and show her you have b@lls.

This is really helpful. I need to remember that the happiness will come even though it seems the opposite. Now that you say it, I think I can see it. Wow, I wish I had been able to a long time ago. It sort of reminds me of the same behavior spoiled children display. They act out and rebel, have no respect for their parents, but deep down they desperately just want some real parenting they can respect, including the boundaries needed to keep them under control.

Yes, that's what I am saying. I really do 't think she is a she-devil, either. I think she is immature. It's serious enough, but I see you having the potential to turn this MR around and set it up right. It will get worse before getting better, b/c of the degree of her contempt for you. She doesn't see you as a man. She does not desire you as a man. At best, she treats you like a gay best friend. At worst, you are no more than a lowly servant who waits hand & foot on her, for your room & board. She will have to see your b@lls in action, before she sees you as the man she needs, and before her sexual desire for you rises. If you get her respect, the desire will follow.

I really hope you're right, Sandi. And I hope I am up to the task. Whatever happens, if I really take this seriously, I will never be the same man again--and thank God! I know how dire the situation is and how much work I will have to put in to turn it around.

Good......just stop taking her hell for it. See, here's how she sees this type of action from you: She b'tches about being late and you won't even help by fixing her lunch......and she is obviously making all of this your fault (being late for work). If you are just sitting around doing nothing particularlly important, she sees you as some lazy slug she is supporting. It causes more comptempt within her. Whether right or wrong, she feels it is your job to help her get to work, with the professional attire and lunch bag. Of course, it's not your job, but this is who you've help to create. How did she ever get through basic training without your help? She knows how to be responsible, but she feels these jobs in helping her are your obligation to her. She is making all of her morning frustrations your fault, b/c you haven't taken care of her properly.

I have been wondering for so long why she blames every failure and frustration on me! I mean, seriously, how does it have anything to do with me that she can't get up 30 minutes earlier to properly pack her lunch? And yet, always always the blame is on me. You really did a good job of explaining why here. It all makes so much sense; again, how did I not realize this before??

Does she set her alarm clock to wake at a certain time every morning? Does she repeatily hit the snooze button? Bless her heart........it must be hard to roll out of bed, after being up most of the night messaging.

Haha! You had me laughing out loud with this. Yes, she is a serial snoozer. We are both night owls, so I empathize, but it's bad. She will wait until the last possible second to get up, which of course creates lots of morning frustrations...

What does she see in you, when first arising? Is your hair standing up in every direction, unshaven, not dressed? I'm not saying to be dressed in a suit & tie, but when a woman already has contemp for the guy.......these little things work against him a lot. So, set your alarm to get you up ahead of her, wash, shave, comb hair, put on jeans & shirt. If she thinks you are a worthless bum.......at least you won't look the part. wink. (jk)

So this is something I have already become aware of. I could probably really do a 180 and become one of those ultra morning people, and that would really get her attention. I have thought about it, but as a night owl, it is very difficult. I do, however, make an effort to avoid what you said--looking like a bum--and get up before her and get dressed, etc. I will make sure this is airtight now that you have reinforced how important it is.

Another question..........when the two of you eat a meal, do you sit at the table together, or fix your plate and eat at the kitchen bar? Do you eat at separate times?

We do not have a table in our house...we do have a bar. Back in the "normal days", we would always eat together in the living room, usually watching TV (have I mentioned she has a TV addiction? I don't care for it much myself but I've logged plenty of hours with her). Now, since it's my rule to not follow her or be in the same room if unnecessary, we don't always eat together. Lately, because of her work schedule, she isn't even home. But when she is, she hasn't been eating, remember? She waits until late at night and then starts calling for me. If it's an extra friendly day, or we ordered takeout, we might eat together at the bar or in the living room.

I agree. You are at the stage I see a lot of newcomer H's afraid of making the incorrect move or saying the wrong thing. And, we are usually guilty of telling him everything he said wrong. However, it is with the purpose of him learning what to say, or not say, if it happens again, etc. I don't want you freezing up, wondering about some catch phrase that might work. When she's pitching a fit.......catch phrases don't usually work. Sometimes, if a WW is just sounding so childish, a H might say, "Feel all better now?". But usually, a comeback remark will fuel her anger. Some people advise that the H start shushing her, trying to calm her down. I don't like that approach, b/c I am a head on collision type. grin Seriously though, it's difficult to describe in a post some kind of one size fits all response, b/c you can't always react the same. Use wise judgement, in spite of what I or anyone else tells you how to respond to her angry tantrums. In my gut, I think she would back down if you stand up to her, but I'm not there watching the scene. She has been trained to respond respectfully to authority in the military. Based on what she told you about "taking some authority", I feel she is not just challenging you.......but needs to see you responding like a man who commands respects from others.

My motto needs to become 'no fear'...even about making mistakes. I'll try standing up and saying what comes to mind without too many words. I'm not sure if she will back down--she's got pride issues--she'll probably be angrier and try to have the last say/upper hand. But, this doesn't necessarily mean she wins. If I do it right, she can have the last word and still 'lose'. I've known her long enough to learn this. She won't back down, but she'll know when she's wrong. It's sort of unspoken, but we both know she has no more footing, if that makes sense. Her last words just start to look pathetic and childish.

As far as loosing your cool, of course I don't recommend anything that hints of domestic violence. I don't think there is anything wrong when a man gives his b'tchy W a piece of his mind and walks out the door without telling her squat of his intentions. He could even walk out without giving a piece of his mind.......if he does it in a strong statement-making manner. smile. He doesn't want to appear as if he is running to take shelter, but rather, that he has had it with this woman!

Hmm, good idea about just walking out the door. I'll add that to the arsenal.

Those are long shifts. Make sure you have the house clean (stay out of her bedroom) and keep food in the house. When she's working these long shifts, keep something cooked that is easy to warm in the microwave. I'm not saying to wait hand & foot on her. There is a difference in being considerate, and over-accommodating. She is a disrespectful, spoiled, self entitled, WW. If you keep the house and yard maintained, and there is food in the kitchen that's pretty easy to prepare.......I would see it considerate, from the woman's point of view. I think you should do all of the laundry, except her clothes. It's not like she has to draw water to boil and use a scrub board and then hang them on the line to dry. smirk The only things you won't be doing (work wise) are her room, and her clothes. Right? Am I missing something? When you cook, make enough to have leftovers......but you don't have to fix her plate and serve her. Not while she's acting so bossy and self entitled.

I understand. This is part of my dilemma--she does work hard and you're right, 12 hours is a long shift. And she's doing them five days a week. So pulling back on helping and trying to bring the tough love, I do sometimes feel bad. But what you said is pretty much what I do. I always make sure the house is clean, take care of all the little things like mowing the lawn, dealing with the trash (no trash service in this country), dog poop, the dogs themselves, laundry, etc. And I do cook. So, I try not to let myself feel bad because I really don't think I'm not "earning my keep". Her room and clothes being the only exception feels fair.

Did she say she wanted in-house separation......or is this just in your signature to clarify the M status?

The words separation, divorce, etc have never actually been used. After her ILYBNILWY speech, saying she didn't want to be with me anymore, she specified that it was no longer appropriate to sleep in the same bed. I'm not sure exactly how you define in-house separation, but that's the definition I'm using. There have been no other ground rules or explicit discussion about it.

You: "We need to lay down some ground rules. When you are working 12 hrs, I don't mind having something prepared for dinner. (Say it this way, so you can still be gone GAL when/if she comes home). When you get ready to eat, all you'll have to do is fix your plate.....maybe reheat it. But, I'm not waiting hand & foot on you.......and I'm not doing your room or your laundry". Bringing home the paycheck does not mean I work for you........or that I'm responsible for you getting to work on time, how you look, or if you have any lunch packed".

I agree that this needs to be said. I am trying to keep any cattiness out of it. (It's hard, though). Say it with all the self confidence and determination you can muster. Not preachy, not like a speech, not wimpy. Say it quickly, but firmly. If she starts yelling or gets too b'tchy or out of hand.....walk out on her and leave the house! Don't stand there while she attacks you. If she can talk calmly, listen......but don't get into a long R talk. Expect her to pull out various cards to play (victim, guilt, control, pity party, blame, entitlement, tears and lots of threats). Stand your ground, no explaining, and don't wimp out.

Okay, I'm glad you agree this talk should happen. Sometimes I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about anything. I think I can handle it and maybe it will shut down the dance that has been going on.

Now, saying all this, there's a slight wrench in being able to put it in motion. W is leaving tomorrow or Wednesday for a work assignment. She says it's looking like three weeks, but there is no way of really knowing much when it comes to these things. It could be 5 days or 6 weeks and I wouldn't be shocked. I really doubt it's much longer than 3 though. Anyway, not sure how to feel about it. Kinda bummed I won't be able to get more practice and keep things going in the right direction. I will use the time to keep reading all the pertinent books I have, practice my responses, and work on me and GAL. In a way, it will be a nice breather and I can relax a little. But I wish it was more like one week.

[44tries]

So W left today, will be gone for a few weeks. We parted on a good note, no anger or fighting today. Last night, she made a request for one night in the bed but I stood my ground. Told her she was welcome to sleep there, but I would be as well. She said she wasn't going to sleep in the bed with me, and slept in 'her' room. No big fuss. Woke me up early this morning asking if I didn't want to spend some time with her before she left (aka help her pack). I didn't jump, but I did give her a ride to the airport.

She has texted me several times since, including a message that said "I'm hungry and don't know what to eat." Ha! Even if I wanted to, not sure if I can help with that from another country... these dynamics are so deeply ingrained. I'm feeling positive, though, about the fact that the anger she shows when I've started standing up to her doesn't last. I think this is important and encouraging that I'm headed in the right direction. Looking forward to focusing on myself while she's gone and having a dose of 'true' separation.

[sandi2]

She won't back down, but she'll know when she's wrong. It's sort of unspoken, but we both know she has no more footing, if that makes sense. Her last words just start to look pathetic and childish.

Right!

Okay, I'm glad you agree this talk should happen. Sometimes I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about anything. I think I can handle it and maybe it will shut down the dance that has been going on.

No, you have to stop seeing R talks as a fixer. This is not the purpose of this talk. I don't think it will stop the dance at all..........at least she's not going to stop testing you. However, you will have said some things that needed to be said as your point of reference in the near future.

Example:

WW: "Are you going to eat? I'm hungry. Be nice and fix my plate and bring to me. I'm in the middle of my show".

You: "As I told you previously, I don't mind cooking when you are working 12 hr shifts, but I am not fixing your plate and playing like your waiter".

You laid the ground work, and now you are following through with it. See?

So W left today, will be gone for a few weeks. We parted on a good note, no anger or fighting today. Last night, she made a request for one night in the bed but I stood my ground. Told her she was welcome to sleep there, but I would be as well. She said she wasn't going to sleep in the bed with me, and slept in 'her' room. No big fuss. Woke me up early this morning asking if I didn't want to spend some time with her before she left (aka help her pack). I didn't jump, but I did give her a ride to the airport.

Perfect!

She has texted me several times since, including a message that said "I'm hungry and don't know what to eat." Ha! Even if I wanted to, not sure if I can help with that from another country... these dynamics are so deeply ingrained.

You: "I'm sure I don't know what you want to eat, either". Then put, "LOL".

[44tries]

No, you have to stop seeing R talks as a fixer. This is not the purpose of this talk. I don't think it will stop the dance at all..........at least she's not going to stop testing you. However, you will have said some things that needed to be said as your point of reference in the near future.

Example:

WW: "Are you going to eat? I'm hungry. Be nice and fix my plate and bring to me. I'm in the middle of my show".

You: "As I told you previously, I don't mind cooking when you are working 12 hr shifts, but I am not fixing your plate and playing like your waiter".

You laid the ground work, and now you are following through with it. See?

Yes, I see. I know she will not stop testing me, and I am totally fine with that. Bring on the tests. By 'dance' I was referring to the passive-agressive show we have been putting on regarding her expectations of me doing personal favors and my refusal to do so. It's a dance because we have done no ground work, there is no reference point to go on, so it just keeps rearing it's head over and over. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Basically, the need for the ground work to back me up is definitely there so I can keep fighting back with strength and authority.

You: "I'm sure I don't know what you want to eat, either". Then put, "LOL".

I think this is almost word for word what I replied with!

[44tries]

Haven't posted in a few days so thought I'd check in.

With W being gone, there are positives and negatives. The positive is I am really enjoying the much needed break from the past month of constant focus on DB, how to handle conversations everyday, basically being on guard at all times. I am just relaxing now and it feels great. My appetite has suddenly returned as the stress has reduced (I lost about 10 lb last month, which would be great if I wasn't already pretty skinny; I'm hoping it comes back as muscle with my new gym schedule just in time for summer ). It almost feels like I'm on vacation and for the first few days I just let myself enjoy it.

However, it is NOT vacation and the decreased motivation is the main negative. The timing of also just finishing my final exams last week only fuels the vacation narrative. But I'm not going to let my GAL slide or let the house fall into disarray. This is the time to prove to myself that all my changes (including over the years we have been together) were not just for her. The old, college me would have waited till the day before she came home to do a massive deep clean and pretend I'm not a total slob. Well, I'm not that slob anymore. I want to really buckle down and make this a time of accelerated growth. There's no one to answer to but myself--and I'm going to be a hard-@ss.

I've finished all the great books I've picked up over the past few weeks. I am now looking for more, but also intend to go back through and refine my notes. I think it would be awesome if I created a sort of guide for myself, filled with all the most important stuff I've read and even a lot from the advice I've gotten here. Who knows, maybe one day at the end of my journey, I'll have written my own book on how to get rid of NGS and stop being a perpetual "one down". Bonus chapters on reclaiming male dominance and killing it in the bedroom .

I wasn't really sure what to expect from W during this time, aside from nothing. I didn't worry about it too much; figured she would be glad to get her own break and space she wanted so badly. I told myself not to care if I didn't hear from her for a week or two. She would probably take her freedom and run with it. Instead, she has been texting me multiple times a day every day since she left and yesterday she called me. She asks how is my day, sends me paragraphs telling me everything she ate that day, what she wishes she could bring me and what she is going to bring me. It's not what I expected, but I'm not reading into it. I never contact her first and as soon as the conversation lulls, I stop responding. I also never wonder at all if she is going to text me or when, which is a huge detachment win for me.

I do still worry about getting stuck in friend zone limbo, but I am only just a few steps into my journey. I read a lot on here about how the friend zone is bad; it inhibits your own emotional recovery and reinforces their lack of attraction/enables cake eating. But it seems LRT is built around eliminating pressure, trying to get their guard down and warming them up. Naturally, "friendliness" is the first step to this, is it not? The drop-em-and-don't-look-back approach a lot of people here advise as the "best chance at getting them back" is actually the Last-LRT, I think. Because of the A, perhaps LRT alone with only hit up against a brick wall and Last-LRT will become necessary. I'm trying to be patient and cross that bridge when I get there, rather than make assumptions and go there prematurely. But I don't want to inhibit my own growth so I'm wary of it. Thoughts welcome .

[44tries]

Been waking up everyday to messages from the W...just how is your weekend, etc. She throws in some temp check questions, but today she has overtly asked if I am dating. I have tried to be vague about my GAL, which is easier now that our communication is over texting rather than IRL. I have implied I am making new friends and trying to see more of the city when she has asked if I am "doing things with new friends". Trying not to give too many details and let her wonder, but I guess the wondering doesn't last long.

I will probably have to respond to her before getting much response here, but I'm trying to figure out what to say. Obviously, I am NOT dating or seeking that out at all. But I don't want to show all my cards, and give her total relief so that she can go back to her own A secure in her position with me as plan B. It's a difficult spot because I do not feel it would be appropriate for me to be dating even if I wanted to, and I think she feels this too despite her decision to cross that line (in secret, which tells you that it is wrong). She is trying to set up this imaginary dynamic where we can just break up like teenagers and go date new people while we are married and living in the same house--the point being to justify her own A and relieve some guilt I'm assuming, but not trying to go down the mind-reading road.

Anyway, if anyone has input, I'd appreciate it. I'll probably just end up being honest and saying something at least a little vague like "Well I'm not actively seeking that right now..." as opposed to some hardline 'no way, that would be wrong' answer that gives her total security. I don't want to play games or lie, and I'm admittedly very bad at being vague and mysterious because I am a very direct, open person. I understand for attraction purposes I need to be less transparent, though.

[44tries]

So looking back at Sandi's advice related to this issue, she said "Don't lie, but don't give her solid answers. She doesn't get to interrogate you." Perhaps I should just tell her she doesn't get to ask me that question...

[MoveFrwd]

[44tries]

Amoafwl, thanks for attempting to respond, wish I could have read it

So we ended up having a rather lengthy discussion. At first, I deflected her question and lightheartedly said "Oo nosy, that's a pretty personal question." Of course she says this must mean the answer is yes, blah blah. I told her no it doesn't and then got more serious about boundaries. I said this isn't a two way discussion coming from a place of honesty, so please don't ask me these types of questions anymore.

She didn't back down. Why can't I ask them? etc... I decided to turn the question around and asked her "Do you think it would be appropriate or inappropriate if I were to be seeing someone now?" Back to my previous post, I was actually unsure if she would try to run with the narrative that it's okay because we're "broken up" and she can free herself to do the same, or if she would go the jealous route and tell me I'm not allowed. She said it would be inappropriate. Ah, interesting, seems we agree then. Now at least, in the future, she can't try to give some B.S. about how her A was okay.

In the end, it became an "honest" conversation about how we both agree it isn't appropriate to be seeing other people right now, something we hadn't explicitly discussed before (probably because it is obvious!). She asked if I wanted to see other people and if and when I do, to let her know.

She said, "I already told you I'm not going to do you wrong and I always answer your questions."

Sure, you answer them...with lies!! This would have all been "good communication" except for the fact that it was actually a game that I lost, essentially because I didn't play my trump card--which is that I know of her A. It became a discussion that required (and was about) honesty and transparency and neither one of us gave it. I had to become vague and evasive because I knew the whole thing was a sham, and she wondered why I was being complicated and confusing. She wants to demand honesty and realness from me, and even go so far as to say she thinks she has "been pretty good at continuing communication with me" and we have both been open about our thoughts and feelings. It was all so convincing for a minute I almost doubted what I have seen with my own eyes.

Feel free to tell me everything I did wrong and how she got what she wanted (assurance I'm not going to go out with other women, or as much assurance as you can get from a sham of an agreement anyway). I don't know how I could have won without telling her I know she is full of sh!t. But I didn't want to do anything I can't undo. I hope someone can tell me how to win these games without needing the trump card, or at least when is the right time to use it. I hate games. And I'm tired of losing.