No affair, no feelings...is there hope?

[MoveFrwd]

She invited me to a dinner she planned for Friday with a few of our friends. I will go, but I feel that I should start declining some of these invitations. As my own GAL ramps up, I hope this will become natural as schedule conflicts arise.

Remember one of her concerns/troubles was feeling like she HAS to invite you if she is doing something because you are living together or whatever. I would say if you start declining these invitations, it will be good for both of you. It shows that you are actually listening and giving her that space. Plus, that gives you more opportunity for awesome GAL! And ALSO remember the last time you went out with friends anyway.

[44tries]

Don't worry, Olya. Not letting my guard down anytime soon.

Thank you Amoafwl, for your encouragement. I am learning! I think I have internalized all of the logic of DB, now it's just a matter of forcing myself to apply it. It gets easier and easier and it feels good to know I'm making strides. Now you can feel free to smack me for whatever you need to in my update from the past couple days:


Friday dinner plans were cancelled because of uncertainty over W's work schedule. Instead, she moved the reservation to lunch and we went just the two of us. We had a great day; the restaurant was fantastic and one she had been wanting me to try for a while. It almost felt like a normal date. Best of all, she didn't text once during the whole outing! We went home in the evening and watched movies and ordered takeout (cooking has essentially stopped in this household due to W throwing up her hands at responsibility and my refusal to pick up the slack). Overall, I was feeling very positive and everything was very natural up until it was time for bed and we retreated to separate rooms.

Yesterday wasn't so great. I GAL'ed for the first half of the day and then W wanted my help with some yard work we had been neglecting. It was hard work and she made a lot of critical comments about how a lot of it was caused by me not finishing projects (okay, yeah like when I'm the only one that picks up dog poop because I need to mow the lawn and I sometimes leave the bags on the patio). I tried to validate her frustration, didn't argue, and took responsibility. But, this was one of those moments where I feel like I am "cowering down" and I'm not sure what to do about it (more of those to come). She also wanted to throw a bunch of stuff away that I could have repurposed, but I didn't fight it because I guess I don't care about doing any of that stuff now. It was hard to work through the comments about "when she moves out of the house" and other vague references to the fact that I will somehow be magically disappearing in the near future.

Then the day just got worse. She told me in the afternoon she "might be going out tonight". "Cool". She asks me if I'm going out tonight (she seems to understand I have a life now at least). "No, I'm not planning to." Well, she went to take a nap and asked me to wake her up at 8pm so she could get ready. I said okay and went about my business tackling my messy closet.

I woke her up and she came into the bedroom to get dressed and then basically told me she didn't want me to come with her, but she didn't have a DD. She said she didn't want to feel suffocated and was worried the more we hang out the more frustrated she will get. I was pretty insulted, but this is par for the course at this point; I just said no problem I won't come (not that I was ever planning to). "Well then I guess I have to take a taxi..." Now, the taxi costs around $120. She had no real intention of taking it. I told her, "I guess these are just the choices you are going to have to make." Looks like her independence was becoming inconvenient again. She grudgingly told me I could come. What an honor.

So, I went. I know, and I knew, that this was the wrong move, but this was a DB battle I just flat out lost. The night was fine and I essentially tried to make myself invisible and not bother her (O don't worry I'm well aware of the pathetic-ness of that statement). She said she had a good time and thanked me for driving. But, man I want my balls back! What was I supposed to do? She had already gotten the intel that I was available, so I couldn't lie and say I was busy. Is flat out refusal the best option?

I am continually faced with these moments where she is just so expectant. I will be sitting in the office working, while she is upstairs, and she will call down something like "can you bring me my iPad from the kitchen?" Uh, sure, I guess I can stop what I'm doing, get up, and fetch your things, when you are just as capable. She has always made these type of requests and before I never really minded (maybe this is part of the problem?). But now, I can't understand how she thinks it is still acceptable. Do I need to sit down and have a specific talk about it? Clearly I need to learn how to say no, but for some reason it is easier said than done. It is already so ingrained in the status quo.

Overall, I still have a lot of work to do. But I'm not letting the bad days discourage me.

Small update on her texting/EA/"just talking to friends" situation. She has greatly reduced the amount of texting she does during the day. However, I am rather concerned/horrified to find that she texts all night! (Remember they are on very different time zones). This is the extent of "snooping" I have done if you even want to call it that. But, and I'm not sure if she has thought about this, it is very easy to see when she is online or when she was last. The past few nights, I have woken up at various odd hours (probably subconsciously thinking about it) and can see that she is online or has been recently. I am baffled as to how she even sleeps. I'm talking 3am, 4am, 5am, etc. Something is definitely not right. Part of me wonders if this is why she insisted on sleeping in separate rooms. But, I'm trying not to get too hung up on it; I am letting go and have no reason to care. I don't think it's sustainable and it will likely run its course anyway.

[Olya]

My dear friend... your wife is having an affair. AND she is cake eating too. I finally understood what that means. Cake eating doesn't mean that the spouse is seriously hiding an affair and leading a double life. It means that the spouse wants to have complete freedom while retaining all of the support that LBS used to offer. (Except for sex. We're staff now.)

It almost felt like a normal date. Best of all, she didn't text once during the whole outing! We went home in the evening and watched movies and ordered takeout (cooking has essentially stopped in this household due to W throwing up her hands at responsibility and my refusal to pick up the slack). Overall, I was feeling very positive and everything was very natural up until it was time for bed and we retreated to separate rooms.

Sooo, this means there was trouble in paradise. Either they had a squabble or he was unavailable for a while. Your wife seems to be looking for a landing pad. She does not want to be alone. Alone leads to thoughts and feelings about oneself. I don't think your wife can handle that.

I will tell you this: she will only leave you if things work out with him. If not, then she will stay with you until she meets someone new and the cycle will start again.

You want her to admit to the affair and to make a choice to break it off and stay with you. You cannot make her do it. However, that is what you should be looking for.

Yesterday wasn't so great. I GAL'ed for the first half of the day and then W wanted my help with some yard work we had been neglecting. It was hard work and she made a lot of critical comments about how a lot of it was caused by me not finishing projects (okay, yeah like when I'm the only one that picks up dog poop because I need to mow the lawn and I sometimes leave the bags on the patio). I tried to validate her frustration, didn't argue, and took responsibility. But, this was one of those moments where I feel like I am "cowering down" and I'm not sure what to do about it (more of those to come). She also wanted to throw a bunch of stuff away that I could have repurposed, but I didn't fight it because I guess I don't care about doing any of that stuff now. It was hard to work through the comments about "when she moves out of the house" and other vague references to the fact that I will somehow be magically disappearing in the near future.

Don't you think that you validate her a little too much? Start telling her that you are busy.

Six days before I found out about the little whore my husband was complaining that I should be getting repairs done on the undercarriage of his car.

I told him that I was busy then and my answer will not change going forward. That car will not be serviceable by the time he gets back. If he wants to be with his girlfriend, she can fly down here, she can drive his car once a month, change his oil, and take it to get repaired. So, in reality, by the time he gets back the engine will stop and the tires will rot.

You need to be busy too. There is a reasonable yard state that you need to maintain for your dogs. Anything more than that - you're busy. She can do it herself or she can get her texting buddy to do it.

Then the day just got worse. She told me in the afternoon she "might be going out tonight". "Cool". She asks me if I'm going out tonight (she seems to understand I have a life now at least). "No, I'm not planning to." Well, she went to take a nap and asked me to wake her up at 8pm so she could get ready. I said okay and went about my business tackling my messy closet.

No. You are not her maid. Start telling her to set an alarm.

So, I went. I know, and I knew, that this was the wrong move, but this was a DB battle I just flat out lost. The night was fine and I essentially tried to make myself invisible and not bother her (O don't worry I'm well aware of the pathetic-ness of that statement). She said she had a good time and thanked me for driving. But, man I want my balls back! What was I supposed to do? She had already gotten the intel that I was available, so I couldn't lie and say I was busy. Is flat out refusal the best option?

Why in God's name did you go!? Why? Your conversation should have ended at taxi. Learn to leave the room when you have made your point. Just walk away. If you're not busy, pretend you are. Done with your homework? Tell her you're working on the next assignment to get ahead because you have plans for next weekend.

I am continually faced with these moments where she is just so expectant. I will be sitting in the office working, while she is upstairs, and she will call down something like "can you bring me my iPad from the kitchen?" Uh, sure, I guess I can stop what I'm doing, get up, and fetch your things, when you are just as capable. She has always made these type of requests and before I never really minded (maybe this is part of the problem?). But now, I can't understand how she thinks it is still acceptable. Do I need to sit down and have a specific talk about it? Clearly I need to learn how to say no, but for some reason it is easier said than done. It is already so ingrained in the status quo.

Then yell down "are your legs broken or something!?"

You have to stop this. You are not her maid. Talk to a lawyer, learn about your rights and stop waiting on her hand and foot.

Overall, I still have a lot of work to do. But I'm not letting the bad days discourage me.

You're right. But you need to decide that you are done with acting this way. I hate the word "man up" and I do not believe in traditional gender roles. What I do believe is that no spouse should be reduced to the level of hired help. You need to grow a spine and that spine needs to stay there for the rest of your life. I'm not talking about growing hard - I'm talking about getting self-respect and knowing your worth and you, my friend, are worth more than this.

Small update on her texting/EA/"just talking to friends" situation. She has greatly reduced the amount of texting she does during the day. However, I am rather concerned/horrified to find that she texts all night! (Remember they are on very different time zones). This is the extent of "snooping" I have done if you even want to call it that. But, and I'm not sure if she has thought about this, it is very easy to see when she is online or when she was last. The past few nights, I have woken up at various odd hours (probably subconsciously thinking about it) and can see that she is online or has been recently. I am baffled as to how she even sleeps. I'm talking 3am, 4am, 5am, etc. Something is definitely not right. Part of me wonders if this is why she insisted on sleeping in separate rooms. But, I'm trying not to get too hung up on it; I am letting go and have no reason to care. I don't think it's sustainable and it will likely run its course anyway.

And this is why I tell you that it's an affair. It is also not a healthy attachment either. How is she supposed to perform at work?

It also seems to me like she is putting more into this relationship than he is or, at the very least, he is starting to create demands. They are now conforming to his time, not hers. And she's fine with it. I'm sorry, but I do think that she is obsessed with this man. Do I believe that it will fizzle out? Yeah. But it will take much longer than you might think.

[sandi2]

She has clearly lost attraction for you, and you aren't doing much to get it back, that I can see in your post. First of all, who calls the shots about what projects you do and when they are suppose to be completed? Is she giving you assignments or specific work chores to be done in a day or week?

In some parts of your post, you sound as if you whining about the yard work (although you said you took responsibility (whatever that means). I know you are young and have a lot to learn about MR, and I hope you'll get some education here. I don't know what your W is seeing when she comes home every day. I don't know how many hours per day is used getting your Masters degree. But I will tell a little of what I do know. If the woman is bringing home the bacon while her H is home.......it would be in his favor to show that he is doing his share of the work. Many W's lose attraction for the stay at home H........even if he's working on his education. I'm not saying she should not have anything to do. There needs to be balance. Otherwise, she is going to lose attraction and gain a lot of resentment. It takes love and maturity to deal with this type of situation.

My suggestion is that you take care of the outside, including the dog poop, and take care of the upkeep of the car. Take care of your own clothes and picking up after yourself, etc. Don't let the dirty dishes pile up, make your bed up every day. I've learned if you do things as you go, it's not a big deal. It's letting it go till later that gets to be a time consuming job. Like, throwing clothes in the hamper or hanging them up.......instead of tossing them on a chair or whatever. Every morning, walk through the house with a container gathering papers or trash that need to be thrown away......or picking up items left out of place. Run a vacuum over the floors once a week. Leave her room alone. If you have separate bathrooms, leave hers alone and just clean yours. Unless the two of you are very messy, this should not be too much to handle, and you'd still have time to devote to your studies, wouldn't you? You could cook every other night, and she could cook or pay for take out. . My point is that when she comes home from work, the only thing she should see undone is her own mess.

Before you can expect her to respect you, you have to make sure you are handling your end of responsibilities.......instead of blaming or waiting on her to do it. Then if she starts chewing on you, there's no cowering down from you or acting as if she's your mother.

She had already gotten the intel that I was available, so I couldn't lie and say I was busy. Is flat out refusal the best option?

Yes, you have options that don't require you to lie. You can actually open your mouth and just say, "No".

I am continually faced with these moments where she is just so expectant. I will be sitting in the office working, while she is upstairs, and she will call down something like "can you bring me my iPad from the kitchen?" Uh, sure, I guess I can stop what I'm doing, get up, and fetch your things, when you are just as capable. She has always made these type of requests and before I never really minded (maybe this is part of the problem?). But now, I can't understand how she thinks it is still acceptable. Do I need to sit down and have a specific talk about it? Clearly I need to learn how to say no, but for some reason it is easier said than done. It is already so ingrained in the status quo.

It's called the nice guy syndrome. Read about it. And please read about male dominance in a MR.

This shows how little she is attracted to you, by treating you like a little boy. All you have to do is tell her you are not her errand boy. You aren't her butler or maid. You aren't her employee. You aren't the dog to play fetch with her. I guarantee you that if she was sexually attracted and respected you like a man......everything would change. She'd be running up & down those stairs for you. But as it is, she's giving orders and you act like a submissive child. Your lack of male dominance is killing this MR.

But, and I'm not sure if she has thought about this, it is very easy to see when she is online or when she was last. The past few nights, I have woken up at various odd hours (probably subconsciously thinking about it) and can see that she is online or has been recently

So what? If you can't even open your mouth to tell the woman that you won't run up & down the stairs.........what are you going to do about her texting some other guy? Nothing, that's what! Furthermore, she knows you'll do nothing.

First, do your research and read about male dominance in the MR. If you haven't read about NGS, get that also.

[44tries]

My dear friend... your wife is having an affair. AND she is cake eating too. I finally understood what that means. Cake eating doesn't mean that the spouse is seriously hiding an affair and leading a double life. It means that the spouse wants to have complete freedom while retaining all of the support that LBS used to offer. (Except for sex. We're staff now.)

This is the main reason I struggled so much with whether I should stay in the house or leave. She wanted me to go, which would have eliminated most of her cake eating. I understand I should be able to remain in my home, and still prevent her from cake eating, but obviously it is much harder than if I just left. But, I'm working on it.

Sooo, this means there was trouble in paradise. Either they had a squabble or he was unavailable for a while. Your wife seems to be looking for a landing pad. She does not want to be alone. Alone leads to thoughts and feelings about oneself. I don't think your wife can handle that.

Spot on with this. Well, at least the part about her not being able to handle her own thoughts and feelings about herself. I know she doesn't know what she wants, is unhappy (which is not because of me despite her blame), and has no real direction. But she isn't dealing with it properly and is instead assuaging it with distraction. Ironically, she talks endlessly of wanting to be alone. She claims her paradise is living on an island by herself with her dogs. I don't know why she insists on convincing herself of this when it is so clearly untrue. She feels such pressure and obligation from everyone around her; she would be much better off working through her own codependency issues.

I will tell you this: she will only leave you if things work out with him. If not, then she will stay with you until she meets someone new and the cycle will start again.

I believe this. However, she tried to leave me before she could possibly know that. The thing that puzzles me is how or even if she actually thinks things could work with him. I mean it's almost impossible. Forget the age difference (does she know it will be two years before he can even go to a bar in the US?? this fact continues to blow my mind), forget the long distance and time zone issue; even if they were to somehow get together physically at the same duty station (big if), they would not be allowed to have a relationship. It's fraternization; she is an NCO, he is literally at the bottom. They work in the same career field. It's a no-go and she is a stickler for the rules, especially when it comes to her career.

I have no idea the extent of their "relationship" or if it even exists outside of her head.

You want her to admit to the affair and to make a choice to break it off and stay with you. You cannot make her do it. However, that is what you should be looking for.

Completely agree with this. I assume my best chances of making this happen are with DBing. I want her to make the conscious choice to choose me, rather than have it fizzle out and she just come back to her comfort zone. Like you said, the cycle will just repeat and I do not want to be along for that ride.

Don't you think that you validate her a little too much? Start telling her that you are busy.

Everything I read always talks endlessly about the importance of validation. I guess this isn't as applicable at this stage? This is part of the big, confusing dichotomy for me. How do I follow all these steps to be a better husband, while also detaching and letting go of that role? Part of my focus to be better just for myself is to be a better listener, communicator, and validator. This will help me in any future relationship, but it feels really blurry trying to incorporate it with a lot of the other DB techniques.

You need to be busy too. There is a reasonable yard state that you need to maintain for your dogs. Anything more than that - you're busy. She can do it herself or she can get her texting buddy to do it.

I agree. The busier, the better.

Why in God's name did you go!? Why? Your conversation should have ended at taxi. Learn to leave the room when you have made your point. Just walk away. If you're not busy, pretend you are. Done with your homework? Tell her you're working on the next assignment to get ahead because you have plans for next weekend.

I know, I totally failed. But next time I won't get caught in the same corner.

You're right. But you need to decide that you are done with acting this way. I hate the word "man up" and I do not believe in traditional gender roles. What I do believe is that no spouse should be reduced to the level of hired help. You need to grow a spine and that spine needs to stay there for the rest of your life. I'm not talking about growing hard - I'm talking about getting self-respect and knowing your worth and you, my friend, are worth more than this.

I understand and think "man up" is appropriate in this case. I spent so long thinking that being a good husband meant being willing to do anything for my wife. Thinking of ways to make her life easier everyday, all that stuff. I think the biggest problem with this is when it isn't reciprocated. The scales tip and then just go further and further out of balance until all respect is lost.

And this is why I tell you that it's an affair. It is also not a healthy attachment either. How is she supposed to perform at work?

Agree, wholeheartedly. It's irresponsible and horrifying. Definitely not healthy or normal.

It also seems to me like she is putting more into this relationship than he is or, at the very least, he is starting to create demands. They are now conforming to his time, not hers. And she's fine with it. I'm sorry, but I do think that she is obsessed with this man. Do I believe that it will fizzle out? Yeah. But it will take much longer than you might think.

I am so glad you said this, because I had very similar thoughts when I was mulling it over yesterday. Believe it or not, I have been down this road she is on (albeit, back when I was very young and single). I met someone who was a lot older than me (very similar to W's situation but roles reversed) and became completely infatuated. She worked on ships and was always some different place in the world. I would stay up all hours texting her; anything to get my fix. The point is, I know firsthand the level of obsession required to keep this kind of behavior up. I tried to think it through and work out another possibility, but there just isn't one.

Now, the parallel to my situation is that I was the one who was staying up all night, just like my W. Like you said, it is very clear there is a one-sided dimension to whatever is going on. In my case, the girl never had any intention of having any kind of real relationship with me. I was a toy, more or less. I also don't really see how we could have kept it up if we didn't have a planned date where we would meet in person again, no matter what level of infatuation cloud I was on. The entire thing was fueled by the anticipation of when we would see each other. And, of course, once we did, it ended.

So, that's the confusing part about my W's situation. She may have some planned rendezvous, but I seriously have my doubts. Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if the guy isn't wondering why the heck she keeps texting him so much (I'm being a bit hyperbolic here, obviously that isn't logical). But, I've met him many times, we've shared several meals and drinks. He's been to our house to hang out. He is fully aware my W is married and I never once got the vibe that he was interested. In fact, he was dating a local girl while he was here. He's just a kid wanting to live his life. Why would he want to get tangled up in this mess? The whole thing is just very bizarre.

You are probably right that I am too hopeful it will fizzle out sooner rather than later.

[SteveLW]

Spot on with this. Well, at least the part about her not being able to handle her own thoughts and feelings about herself. I know she doesn't know what she wants, is unhappy (which is not because of me despite her blame), and has no real direction. But she isn't dealing with it properly and is instead assuaging it with distraction. Ironically, she talks endlessly of wanting to be alone. She claims her paradise is living on an island by herself with her dogs. I don't know why she insists on convincing herself of this when it is so clearly untrue. She feels such pressure and obligation from everyone around her; she would be much better off working through her own codependency issues.

44, my wife said the same things! But as your sitch it was only after things ended with the OM. Her's was an online EA. The furthest it got was her sending him some nude pictures. My wife is an attractive woman, but she was 49. He was 42. And he had a girlfriend that was even younger than him. Once he got what he wanted from her, he gave her the old "I want to make things work with my girlfriend speech."

That is when the "it would be easier for everyone if I just died." and "I want to live all by myself on an island." talk started.

It is a phase. Either she will move on to OM2 (mine was headed that way), or she will finally wake up to her actions and want to work on the MR. Note, this is not an overnight change. My wife struggled with it for weeks. Some struggle with it for months or even years.

When she is ready to work on the R, MC might be able to help. You should be in IC regardless.

[MoveFrwd]

Everything I read always talks endlessly about the importance of validation. I guess this isn't as applicable at this stage? This is part of the big, confusing dichotomy for me. How do I follow all these steps to be a better husband, while also detaching and letting go of that role? Part of my focus to be better just for myself is to be a better listener, communicator, and validator. This will help me in any future relationship, but it feels really blurry trying to incorporate it with a lot of the other DB techniques.

I think Olya used the wrong word there. I think what she meant was that you seem to be bending over into a pretzel over and over to appease your W. Why are you continuing to do that?

[44tries]

She has clearly lost attraction for you, and you aren't doing much to get it back, that I can see in your post. First of all, who calls the shots about what projects you do and when they are suppose to be completed? Is she giving you assignments or specific work chores to be done in a day or week?

I am very clear that she has lost attraction, and I certainly want to change what I'm doing to work toward getting it back. She does not give me any assignments or projects. She is not very interested in most of them. She might say she wants the yard to look nice, but she will not give me any specifics. I take it upon myself to turn the dirt into a lawn, make a dog potty area, landscape etc. She only cares if I don't finish and leave a mess. And she is appreciative when I do complete something, but has never demanded it. Occasionally, she may ask me to complete a specific chore that needs done, but overall I would not say she gives me orders or timelines. She mostly only communicates about chores if she is disappointed I neglected something and if she ever does have a request, she is quick to offer help.

In some parts of your post, you sound as if you whining about the yard work (although you said you took responsibility (whatever that means). I know you are young and have a lot to learn about MR, and I hope you'll get some education here. I don't know what your W is seeing when she comes home every day. I don't know how many hours per day is used getting your Masters degree. But I will tell a little of what I do know. If the woman is bringing home the bacon while her H is home.......it would be in his favor to show that he is doing his share of the work. Many W's lose attraction for the stay at home H........even if he's working on his education. I'm not saying she should not have anything to do. There needs to be balance. Otherwise, she is going to lose attraction and gain a lot of resentment. It takes love and maturity to deal with this type of situation.

I wasn't intending to whine about yard work; I don't mind it at all. I have been frustrated in the past when I felt she doesn't even give it a thought. It is not my designated duty to pick up the dog poop, but I am the only one that does it. There are many things like this. But, I am fully aware of the fact that my responsibility is much higher than hers since she works full-time and I am home. So, for the most part, I have no complaints. The issues you bring up are very valid, and they were definitely applicable, especially when we first moved here. Before we moved, we both worked full-time and shared house duties. I fully acknowledged that I would do a lot more once that changed (I think we agreed on something like 70% to 30%), but it was an adjustment. At first, she was frustrated if she didn't feel I did enough. She didn't seem to care at all about my schoolwork or anything else I did, only house chores. Some resentment probably built up. But, I recognized this last year and stepped up. Everyday, I tidy the house before she comes home. With three big dogs, vacuuming has to happen daily, including the couch and the bed. The dishes are done and the kitchen clean, always. In fact, no one comes to our house without commenting how clean it is. I know my W has high expectations and standards, but at this point in time I really feel I have learned how to meet them. She very rarely complains or questions my household duties anymore. I am certainly not perfect and I guess there is always more to do and better ways to cut down on wasted time, but I sacrifice my personal stuff more than the house because I know how important it is to her. I want to reiterate that you are completely right, though, and this used to be a big issue. Perhaps it could still be improved further.

Unless the two of you are very messy, this should not be too much to handle, and you'd still have time to devote to your studies, wouldn't you? You could cook every other night, and she could cook or pay for take out. . My point is that when she comes home from work, the only thing she should see undone is her own mess.

Your suggestions are great, and also help me to navigate it now that we are "separated". It's hard when I feel like most of the chores are my responsibility, but I am also not supposed to be bending over backwards for her anymore. I like your idea of continuing to take care of everything except what is explicitly hers.

Before you can expect her to respect you, you have to make sure you are handling your end of responsibilities.......instead of blaming or waiting on her to do it. Then if she starts chewing on you, there's no cowering down from you or acting as if she's your mother.

This makes sense. Basically, no matter how well I think I am doing now, I need to just turn it up another notch. Truly leave nothing open for her to criticize.

Yes, you have options that don't require you to lie. You can actually open your mouth and just say, "No".

I will try this.

It's called the nice guy syndrome. Read about it. And please read about male dominance in a MR.

Along with DR, I got a book on NGS. Sooo relatable, you are definitely right, it is me. I will also read further on male dominance in a MR. I am fully on board with the fact that this is a major source of the problem, I just need to make sure I learn how to fix it.

This shows how little she is attracted to you, by treating you like a little boy. All you have to do is tell her you are not her errand boy. You aren't her butler or maid. You aren't her employee. You aren't the dog to play fetch with her. I guarantee you that if she was sexually attracted and respected you like a man......everything would change. She'd be running up & down those stairs for you. But as it is, she's giving orders and you act like a submissive child. Your lack of male dominance is killing this MR.

I'm glad to hear you say this, because it reinforces my thinking that everything would be different. The question is, do you think that it is possible to turn it around? Once she has lost respect and attraction, is it extremely difficult to get back even if I reestablish male dominance?

First, do your research and read about male dominance in the MR. If you haven't read about NGS, get that also.

I will get to reading. Even from what I already read, I know this a pattern that will not stop until I figure out how to change. These problems recur in all my relationships, it is definitely something I need to deal with.

[44tries]

44, my wife said the same things!

Wow, I guess it's comforting to know that is very normal. Funny how it's almost an exact quote.

It is a phase. Either she will move on to OM2 (mine was headed that way), or she will finally wake up to her actions and want to work on the MR. Note, this is not an overnight change. My wife struggled with it for weeks. Some struggle with it for months or even years.

When she is ready to work on the R, MC might be able to help. You should be in IC regardless.

Thank you, this is somewhat hopeful. I'm pretty sure my W has been in this phase before. She goes into her speeches about wanting to live on the island and then comes out of it. Before, however, there has never been an OM involved. What's worrisome for me is why she can't break out of the phase permanently. Maybe, like you said, some people just struggle with it for a long time and the phases I see are just mini-cycles of one big phase. My feeling is that when she does break out of it, we aren't doing the right things to fix the problem. Hopefully, if the chance comes, I will know what to do this time and we can get proper counseling.

[SteveLW]

44, my wife said the same things!

Wow, I guess it's comforting to know that is very normal. Funny how it's almost an exact quote.

It is a phase. Either she will move on to OM2 (mine was headed that way), or she will finally wake up to her actions and want to work on the MR. Note, this is not an overnight change. My wife struggled with it for weeks. Some struggle with it for months or even years.

When she is ready to work on the R, MC might be able to help. You should be in IC regardless.

Thank you, this is somewhat hopeful. I'm pretty sure my W has been in this phase before. She goes into her speeches about wanting to live on the island and then comes out of it. Before, however, there has never been an OM involved. What's worrisome for me is why she can't break out of the phase permanently. Maybe, like you said, some people just struggle with it for a long time and the phases I see are just mini-cycles of one big phase. My feeling is that when she does break out of it, we aren't doing the right things to fix the problem. Hopefully, if the chance comes, I will know what to do this time and we can get proper counseling.

I credit our counselor for breaking the cycle. If she is willing, get into MC. Like I said, you should be in IC anyway.