WW in MLC affair and I need advice..

[sandi2]

Of course the W came to me in a panic to help clean up the vomit. I've always done that task whenever one of us is sick but the whole time I'm cleaning I was thinking oh how the W will love this when she's on her own.

The whole time you were cleaning? Why do you think things will change, if you continue the same dynamics? That's why you've always been the one to clean up the vomit.

Let her panic! The world does not stop turning. Stop rescuing her.

She had been friendly a handful of times, temp checking I think.

Oh, I guarantee it. The WW does nothing nice with or to the H, that isn't for her benefit somehow, some way. Selfishness is 100% of her motivation.

The W doesn't know but I figured it would be best to keep it a secret until she moves out

. Why? Don't give her details about where you are going, what you will be doing, who it is with, or when you'll get back. But why do you feel you have to keep GAL a secret? Was this a habit in previous times, when you figured the W would not be happy about you bike riding.......or anything else that you might actually enjoying doing without her? Did you have to make a decision to stop doing some of your old hobbies or either hide it from the W.......else you might have to suffer her wrath? It's okay, you can be honest here. Look, she's moving out anyway........what's the worse that could happen if she knows? Wouldn't it feel kind of good to do what you want, and not feel like you had to hide it from her? Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be close to growing a pair?

If she springs at the last minute that she has plans this weekend, what do you plan to say? Don't you dare back out of your GAL just b/c she makes plans. And she will expect you to stay home and babysit. So, what's your game plan? Stand up to her like a man, and tell her you've made plans for the entire weekend, so she'll have to get a babysitter. And, don't start stuttering around when she starts firing questions, wanting the low down on what you plan. She doesn't get to know. How's that? She has fired you as her H, so she forfeits the right to know all your personal business.

First bike ride in 5 years, huh? That's how old your D is, right? Just saying.......

Do you know why a lot of W's lose attraction for their H? B/c he stopped being the guy she fell in love with. He hunched down when she would nag him, guilt him, bellyache, or manipulate him.......instead of standing up to her and putting her in her place. He tried to tell himself .........whatever, in order to live with her. But she lost respect for him as a man. Now, I may be off base in this case.........but I bet not too far.

Every W will test her H at some point in their MR, to see if he's strong enough to put her in her place. (And, I'm not suggesting abusive actions). If she proves she is stronger than him, she loses respect for him. Women need their men to be stronger, b/c that is something that is born in them. That's why God gave you fellows a pair of b@lls. So, make good use of them.

Get on that bike and find that guy again! This time around, don't lose him.

Have a great time!

[Natash]

Of course the W came to me in a panic to help clean up the vomit. I've always done that task whenever one of us is sick but the whole time I'm cleaning I was thinking oh how the W will love this when she's on her own.

The whole time you were cleaning? Why do you think things will change, if you continue the same dynamics? That's why you've always been the one to clean up the vomit.

Let her panic! The world does not stop turning. Stop rescuing her.

No not the whole time. She started cleaning up D5 and I had to have D7 leave the room and find something to do before she tossed her cookies (she has a weak stomach for vomit). So I was thinking about my sick D5 and not it as rescuing the W.

She had been friendly a handful of times, temp checking I think.

Oh, I guarantee it. The WW does nothing nice with or to the H, that isn't for her benefit somehow, some way. Selfishness is 100% of her motivation.

The W doesn't know but I figured it would be best to keep it a secret until she moves out

. Why? Don't give her details about where you are going, what you will be doing, who it is with, or when you'll get back. But why do you feel you have to keep GAL a secret? Was this a habit in previous times, when you figured the W would not be happy about you bike riding.......or anything else that you might actually enjoying doing without her? Did you have to make a decision to stop doing some of your old hobbies or either hide it from the W.......else you might have to suffer her wrath? It's okay, you can be honest here. Look, she's moving out anyway........what's the worse that could happen if she knows? Wouldn't it feel kind of good to do what you want, and not feel like you had to hide it from her? Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be close to growing a pair?

I don't feel like GAL needs to be a secret but have to a point because most of the things I have done have been with a close Bbuddy. Him and his wife were in our wedding. His wife was my wife's second best friend for a while. The W bragged to his W about who she was texting. My friends wife didn't agree with what my w was doing so my wife has stopped talking with her and unfriended her on FB. Months ago out of the blue my W told me to stop hanging out with "my friends and btw you vcan have Courtney and Al!" I thought it was strange but now believe she's written them off and if she knows I'm hanging out with the same people every time it will (because some ways it is) a weak GAL plan. The improving weather will increase what I can do and who I can do it with. At that point I wouldn't mind sharing names here or there if I feel the need. I guess it was my way to make GAL mysterious for a bit. I did not have to give up activities or hide any before. There were times she'd tell me to go out more often but I remember when I went fishing a few weekends in a row a comment was made to me about her home with the kids so I made the choice to back off and stick around home until the girls were older. We were always upfront and honest about activities. Often times, if I wanted to do or buy something I did. I would run it by the Way so there were no surprises to her. I wanted a seadoo in 2014 so I went and bought one. Motorcycles, same way. My W will tell you in that way I'm selfish and it's all about me (not the case). Two weeks ago she said "you're driving a $50k pickup and I'm driving a 2010 suv that is falling apart ( not the case, we keep our vehicles in top shape. She was just irritated it needed a sway bar replaced, a common failure). I then said "do you recall before we talked about buying snowmobiles I said we should buy you a new vehicle... and you chose not to? Her reply was that wouldn't make sense since we are now where we are. (surprising to me because this was back in the fall). I see it as I work hard for the money and spend money on my home and family and little on myself so every five years or so I buy a different toy to enjoy. This winter when I bought two new snowmobiles to get back into the sport (was into big time when I first met W in 20004 but it is expensive and I couldn't afford it after buying a home then having kids in daycare). I bought one for me one for the w. After discovery of the A I sold them both after only putting 15 miles on them. I had planned to sell the seadoo this spring (we now have a camper and pool so the seadoo only saw water twice last summer). So Im planning to use the seadoo funds to pay for the bike. So that sale won't be until next month and then I look forward to showing her I bought what I wanted. If I do it now I know she'll be like I can't believe you, taking out a loan when we are where we are. More importantly, I don't want to send the message it's ok to go borrow money. She made the comment recently about working on going debt free (usually that is something I'd say). If i say the seadoo funds will pay for it. She'll say half that is mine (even tho ugh not one penny came from her to pay for it) I guess long story short I feel it would create a conversation I want to avoid and if she finds out once no longer living here there is not s darn thing she can say about it....wow! After all this typing and explaining I see exactly what you are saying. I need to just show up with it and start earning my pair back!

If she springs at the last minute that she has plans this weekend, what do you plan to say? Don't you dare back out of your GAL just b/c she makes plans. And she will expect you to stay home and babysit. So, what's your game plan? Stand up to her like a man, and tell her you've made plans for the entire weekend, so she'll have to get a babysitter. And, don't start stuttering around when she starts firing questions, wanting the low down on what you plan. She doesn't get to know. How's that? She has fired you as her H, so she forfeits the right to know all your personal business.

yes ma'am, I'm not the babysitter this weekend and I like that, she doesn't get to know.

First bike ride in 5 years, huh? That's how old your D is, right? Just saying.......

I missed what you are getting at

Do you know why a lot of W's lose attraction for their H? B/c he stopped being the guy she fell in love with. He hunched down when she would nag him, guilt him, bellyache, or manipulate him.......instead of standing up to her and putting her in her place. He tried to tell himself .........whatever, in order to live with her. But she lost respect for him as a man. Now, I may be off base in this case.........but I bet not too far.

Every W will test her H at some point in their MR, to see if he's strong enough to put her in her place. (And, I'm not suggesting abusive actions). If she proves she is stronger than him, she loses respect for him. Women need their men to be stronger, b/c that is something that is born in them. That's why God gave you fellows a pair of b@lls. So, make good use of them.

Get on that bike and find that guy again! This time around, don't lose him.

Have a great time!

Not too far off base, she lost respect for me a few years back and I didn't do enough about it. I thank you for your guidance and clear instructions.

Oh, sh*t, my plans may be up in the air. As I finish typing D7 just vomited in bed. Looks like just when we thought she escaped the virus it got her!

[sandi2]

So I was thinking about my sick D5 and not it as rescuing the W.

I knew it.....with out a shadow of doubt, I knew you were going to come back and say you did b/c of your D5! That is what men with the NGS do.

Oh, sh*t, my plans may be up in the air. As I finish typing D7 just vomited in bed. Looks like just when we thought she escaped the virus it got her!

No, your W can keep D5 while you keep your mysterious plans.

I mean, there's no better time like the current time for her to learn how to clean up vomit. Don't let her guilt you out of your trip. Mothers stay home and keep care of their sick children every day. Don't rescue her.......and don't say it's for D5.

BTW, the "mystery" is your W not knowing the details surrounding your GAL.

[Natash]

So I was thinking about my sick D5 and not it as rescuing the W.

I knew it.....with out a shadow of doubt, I knew you were going to come back and say you did b/c of your D5! That is what men with the NGS do.

I have to say this reaction surprised me. Would it change your thoughts if I have always done this? Since my girls were newborns and got sick, my wife immediately attended to them (picked them up, cleaned them up, etc) and I cleaned up the mess left behind while she was tending to the child. Nothing has changed (it was not like I decided to clean it up to be nice, I just see it as something that has to get done). I can see after reading what I wrote, it may sound like the typical NG but I am working on eliminating the NGS and want to make sure there was not a better way to handle that situation.

I mean, there's no better time like the current time for her to learn how to clean up vomit. Don't let her guilt you out of your trip. Mothers stay home and keep care of their sick children every day. Don't rescue her.......and don't say it's for D5.

W does know how to clean up vomit but I get your point. It was tough walking out the door leaving my D7 behind who was still getting sick every so often but I did. I got to go see a friend that I have not seen for over a year and his brother that I have not seen for several years. After that I went and picked up my new bike. I got a missed call from home with a voicemail about half way through the trip. It was one of the Ds whispering something about when I'm coming home. I got home after diner and the girls and W were in the living room watching a movie. D5 and D7 started right in with questions. The girls wanted to know where I was so I had told them I was hanging out with two friends (mentioned their names because that would have been the next question). So the W then says "The girls called you but you never called back" I said yeah I got the phone from the truck and saw I had a missed call and voicemail. She says "Oh that's, didnt even have your phone with you...good thing I didnt need to get a hold of you! Its fine your out with your friends but I cant believe that you never called to show that you care about your sick daughter and see how she was doing!" I responded calmly "My phone was not in the truck the entire time and just because I did not call to check up on her does not mean that I did not think about how she was doing or care about her. To be continued...

[SteveLW]

"Oh that's, didnt even have your phone with you...good thing I didnt need to get a hold of you! Its fine your out with your friends but I cant believe that you never called to show that you care about your sick daughter and see how she was doing!" I responded calmly "My phone was not in the truck the entire time and just because I did not call to check up on her does not mean that I did not think about how she was doing or care about her. To be continued...

Natash, not sure you should have responded like this. I'll let the experts chime in but I will give advice. Go back to the stickies on this forum and read the validation thread. Validating properly will usually be all you need to do. Validate with so much sugar that she is sticky (figuratively!) when you are finished validating. Your response as written above, sorry to say, still sounds like you have a solid case of NGS. Explaining yourself. No need to do that. Just validate with concise statements and move on.

[Natash]

Natash, not sure you should have responded like this. I'll let the experts chime in but I will give advice. Go back to the stickies on this forum and read the validation thread. Validating properly will usually be all you need to do. Validate with so much sugar that she is sticky (figuratively!) when you are finished validating. Your response as written above, sorry to say, still sounds like you have a solid case of NGS. Explaining yourself. No need to do that. Just validate with concise statements and move on.

Thank you Steve for pointing that out. I struggle over explaining things and as you can see even when I try to keep it short and to the point it shines through. I probably should have just said " I can understand why you would feel that way" and left it at that. I do need to improve my validation. I will set it as a goal. I set Sandi's rules as a goal and read them often, sometimes daily and it helped me stay focused and consistent. I'll have to do the same with validation.

[sandi2]

I have to say this reaction surprised me. Would it change your thoughts if I have always done this? Since my girls were newborns and got sick, my wife immediately attended to them (picked them up, cleaned them up, etc) and I cleaned up the mess left behind while she was tending to the child. Nothing has changed (it was not like I decided to clean it up to be nice, I just see it as something that has to get done). I can see after reading what I wrote, it may sound like the typical NG but I am working on eliminating the NGS and want to make sure there was not a better way to handle that situation.

Change my thoughts? You did not have to tell you've always been this way. I knew it. I know the dynamics in your MR.

I want to make something perfectly clear here. Caring for your children and doing what seems right......is not "nice". It is being a responsible parent. Have you read the book about NGS? The title of nice guy could be a little misleading, if you don't understand the psychology behind it. People who know you would say, "He is a nice guy". There is nothing wrong with being a nice person. But what I am referencing goes much deeper and causes a dynamic in MR's such as you are currently experiencing.

It's as if you have always been the primary parent (for lack of better way to describe it). Not only does your W depend on you to take care of the children during the night, when they are sick, making sure they have what they need and get to where they need to be.....she expects it. Traditionally, it was mothers who took care of the home and the needs of the children, got up during the night, etc. Some couples share or swap out in these areas, but I have observed IRL, and on the board, that in many families there will be a primary parent who steps up to these jobs more than the other parent. If the H has NGS....then more than likely, he is going to be that parent.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with the father doing all the things you do for your kids. I want you to see the dynamic in your MR. Would you say your W has a sense of entitlement? I mean, she obviously expects you to take care of these things. She seems blind to her own role in caring for her little girls. Your next paragraph is an example of how she plays the guilt card to manipulate you in continuing the old dynamic. The first time you pulled back just a little, she reacted very badly. She hit you where she knew would hurt the most, by saying you didn't care that your child was sick. I suspect the reason your D tried to call was due to her mother making statements like, "Your father should be here to take care of you". Whether or not she said anything to your D or put her up to calling you..........the action of your W was not concern for the child. It was concern for herself!

[Natash]

I have read the NGS and do have I'd say half of the characteristics but you know something? As I was reading I noticed many of the things mentioned fit my W...is there any thoughts or talk of NGS as Nice Girl Syndrome? My wife did the majority for my girls prior the BD (dance, bday parties, doc appts,etc). Up until then u wouldn't say she had a sense of entitlement, she saw it as being a mom. After BD I believe she feels and acts entitled because in her mind she deserves it for all her work that she has done over the years that was under appreciated.

Tonight turned out interesting. Got home from work and no one was around (wife had the day off with kids that are on vacation). I get a text a while later "kids are with me on a play date". I don't want to pursue but want to know what to do for supper (w spent $250 on groceries which included special items for a new meal plan she was doing for weight loss. I didn't want to cook a meal and have no one around to eat it so I responded with a text "will the girls be eating supper at home tonight" She said "no". Next text was out of the blue " I don't know if your card has been hacked but there is a $29.99 charge from Planet Fitness". Originally I thought, is she with her BFF and they are talking while the kids are playing? (Later confirmed as my girls told me they went to McDonald's play place with Ws BFF and her family) Did someone see me last night at the gym and it get back to the W or BFF? Why ask me now via text instead of in person? I was going to ignore it but my W does not have access to my credit card and last month I set it up for email statements. The charge was $10 for the first month and $19 for the second month, not $29.99 Great, has she been snooping? That would be worse than finding out about Divorce Busting ...I responded "what card and where did you see this?" She didn't answer the question but replied "did you get a membership?" I did. I'm a first time gym member and have been using the gym as an escape and something to do at nights when the girls are in bed. I responded "Yes. Will you tell me where you saw this because that is not the correct price and I need to look into it" She replied " do you think I'm stupid? I asked you a question and you replied with a question. Avoidance. For what? Who cares how or where I saw it? And you know how much something is when you sign up and pay for something. I don't really care but don't get why you are acting this way..." This is when I stopped in my tracks. It's a trap if I keep the conversation and text going. There is no way she saw the credit card statement because I opened and shreaded last months. This month was emailed. I left the house to chat with a friend and have a beer. I needed an ear to listen. I'm glad I did. We got a chuckle about her hypocracy, not to mention I answered her question but she never did mine. On the drive home I realized, she must have saw the $21.99 charge a few day ago on my checking account and must have assumed I used a debit card. The first two months were on a credit card but now it is directly withdrawn. She was just checking up on me and can't understand " why I'm acting this way" As much as I felt like saying Ditto, I think it is proof that I need to keep it up and step up the mysterious when I can. She didn't mention any of the above to me when I got home and has been friendly since.

[Natash]

Quick update and venting, I'm struggling with W and the GAL plans. My W has made random comments about how I just leave without saying anything and goes on complaining about it. I thought about it and she has always told me ahead of time about her plans (even though they are vague and not 100 percent true). I know we have a communication issue so I thought maybe I should show some validation to her point and let her know my plans from time to time. Last weekend I got up early on Sunday morning and asked if she had plans as I walked by her still in bed. She said only to get groceries. So I responded "I'm going skiing for half the day." I met up with a long time friend I used to ski with years ago and have not seen for years. We went skiing and had a great time, I hadn't been on skiis in years but was still able to ski White Nitro.. the steepest double black diamond in the east. It felt great! When I got back, WW had several questions about skiing. I casually answered with short simple answers.

This week had been decent and until I slipped up. I got out of work on time and went to the gym. When I got home, the WW snapped at me "you work late?" I said yeah and then asked how D7 was doing. WW then snapped again "you work late?" I had my D on my mind and said yeah and then I went to the gym. She acted irritated. Fast forward to today. Today was the day I thought she would be moving out. I had plans to go buy a new golf driver,go to the driving range, go golfing, and then hang out at a friends. In the morning I ran errands in town like I now often do on the weekend( I don't tell ww my plans but if the girls ask where I'm going, I name one of the places for them). So lunch time rolls around and WW says " do you have plans today?" I said yeah I'm going golfing why? She got all pissed off and said " never mind!" And walked away as I asked her the why part. I went back inside and said. " Don't walk away from me when I'm talking to you, especially when I'm answering a question you asked me" So she said well I wanted to go to fair for a little bit. I said well go, I can make my plans flexible. I realize know I shouldn't have said this. She said "no, nevermind. I won't have much time there now. I'm the built in babysitter! You go every Saturday morning wherever and never say a thing. I said "I'm a grown man and don't have to answer to anyone. If I want to go in town to run errands I can and I do tell the girls where I'm going" She continues" You go to the gym after work and have free reign...I pick the kids up after work and i'm stuck with the kids all the time". I said " it doesn't have to be that way, if you have plans you could always get a babysitter." She said "oh ok, that's how it's going to be...ok! Then she said something again about how I left when D7 was puking and had diaherra and I never called home and was gone all day! World's greatest dad right there!" I calmly said " I had plans that day but at least I came home. I was home before bed time " she said " I've never left and not called home". I said "bullshit, you left one day to watch a friends boy for a few hours...and didn't come home until the next day. Another time you told your family you were going out to eat.. and never came home that night" she said "whatever" and shutup and I walked away. Now this is the part that agrevates me because I'm kicking myself now for the way I handled it. My buddy had to work and bail on our plans at the last hour, so I told my daughters I'd go to the driving range and then when I get back take them to mini golf. Around this tine knowing my plans are shot, my wife went and made plans to go out (without me knowing. I should have left earlier on my own. It's the every other weekend weekend so I'm assuming OM is involved). The girls come to me and say "let's go dad!"I said " I'll be back later. And they said Well mom's leaving to go out to eat with friends so we are coming with you" I walked back inside and W is on her way out. I said to the W "so is this where I should pitch a hissy fit, I'll be with the girls while you go out?" She said nothing.

I had a great afternoon with my girls. I bought them their first set of golf clubs and took them to the driving range. The gentlemen their game them their own pink cancer awareness ball. After hitting a bucket of balls, we went out to eat at a restaurant that over looks the river and enjoyed the awesome weather (best day weather wise this year).

Now we get to the tough part. The girls know mom left at 4 to go eat. They call her around 7:30 to ask when she is coming home.She told them in a little bit, she was just starting to eat. So I let them stay up later watching TV so they could see Mom when she gets home. At 8:45 I tell them ok, we have to go to bed. D7 start s to cry and says" Mom's not home, when will she be here. She keeps saying in a little bit. Can I call mom to say goodnight?" I said yes. They got her voicemail so they called my MIl. Almost instantly the W calls back and talks with both of the girls who are in tears saying "when will you be home". She told them she would be home before they woke up in the morning. As I'm tucking the girls in the WW calls and tries to give me an earful about how I let the girls stay up extra late and overtired and it made them feel this way and call her crying. Again mentions that I've left for a whole day. I was just listening, saying very little but did tell her ,"the girls are sad because they want to know when you'll be home. I don't make them feel this way, it's how they feel and when I leave, I'm home for bed time" She responded " oh ok, make me out to be the bad parent" I said Ok and hung up. Now I'm second guessing wether I should have answered her call to my cell and say what I did or if it would have been better off letting it go to voicemail.

I'm no longer affraid to rock the boat but am looking for some insight in how to handle these flare-ups in the future. What I did or said that was good? What I said or did that could have been handled differently?

A big hurdle for me right now is I've been invited to go on a once in a lifetime 110 mile 6 day canoe trip next weekend. I haven't mentioned it to my W because if she did move out this weekend, I decided as much as I want and need to go to get a break and enjoy friends I decided i wanted to be the Rock for my girls. If she moved out and then dad was gone for a week (I've never left them more than a couple days) my D7 anxiety would have kicked in and caused her to be deeply sad and confused. I will be there for them whenever possible. Since W hasn't moved, I'm going to go. Do I tell her now? Tell her last minute? Ask her if she's all set for the week? I want to come off strong and to the point as I'm getting tired of her game.

[sandi2]

When in this type of tit for tat battle, it's pretty much of a no win situation for the LBS, from what I have seen. I think it might be to your advantage to tell your W about the trip. If you act as if you are being secretive and wait to the last minute, she'll sure enough try to scr@w you. What do you have to lose, by being honest and discussing it in plenty of time? Having grandparents as backup sitters would be my call, too.