WW moved out. Whirlwind of emotions

[sandi2]

Do you feel insulted, that your W left you for another man and is asking if she can still go climbing with you?

She's said several times that she "wants to stay friends" though and she still occasionally makes friendly overtures toward me, so I suspect she will bring it up.

I can probably count on one hand the times that I have not heard of a WW say she wanted to stay friends with the LBH.

Do you want to be friends with someone who has proven she will betray you?

As for as her showing "concern" for how her betrayed H feels...........(seriously?)............and/or showing affection........it's comprobable to a mother kissing her little boy's boo-boo, so he'll stop crying over the hurt. Feel insulted yet?

WW's have a sense of entitlement. They are arrogant and selfish. The more you show her that you want her disloyal crumbs, the less she'll respect you......and thereby, won't desire you as a man or want you for any type of relationship.....except, friend-ship.

[reframe]

OK.. She came over and did taxes today. It was incredibly hard, but I stick to the rules.


She texted earlier to confirm that we weren't doing dinner.
I was friendly, but no pursuit.

I noticed a few little comments from her - she asked if I switched climbing gyms, since she hadn't seen me at the one we both go to (I have not switched).

She reached out and felt the material on my shirt once.
A few little temp checks like that from her.

At the same time, things she was saying and doing were still making it clear that she is moving on with her life.

When she left, she hugged me. I responded with a one arm half hug and she commented that it was "a halfhearted hug" and said goodbye. Using the same tone she used to have when I got annoyed about sex and withdrew years ago.

I feel like I did pretty well. I was cordial, but no pursuit. I'm already second guessing not reciprocating the hug. The hardest part when we would fall into working on things together, and some talking and laughing, like old times. It felt very comfortable and familiar. Times like those I feel like I could enjoy dinner with her, although that's not on the table while OM is in the picture.

I really appreciate the support and coaching this community has provided btw. This is the hardest thing I've ever done.

[Maika]

Oh man, the hugs! the hugs! the pitiful hugs!

The hugs don't mean jacks@%t. Trust me - I went through this exact same thing. I was like, man I should give her more hugs or give her fuller hugs. f$%K that!!! Once I realized how pathetic and weak I sounded, I got my back firm up and stood my ground.

Don't worry about the hugs. I say, don't give any hugs. I remember Sandi telling me that if she leaned in for it, I could just say "Thanks, but I don't need a hug" LOLZ!!! I never got a chance to do it because I guess I gave off the vibe that I was done, but I was so ready to pull that line.

I know this is completely counter intuitive to what you're feeling. Don't be a lap dog / puppy dog willing to take whatever scraps she's throwing at you. She just slept with someone else last night man! C'mon.

You got this! I am proud you were able to sit and do taxes with her. S#%t, I wouldn't have been able to do that. So, good start. Now get with the program and keep at it.

What you climbing at? 15 years climbing so 5.13+?

[reframe]

Maika,

Thanks man. I know intellectually that not reciprocating the hug (or half reciprocating) was the right call. Her annoyed reaction actually reenforces that - apparently I'm suppose to just accept whatever bone she throws my way.

I see that sense of entitlement all along in her:
- she was willing to leave the dogs (really) to move out
- she's been alternative crushes, but didn't actually leave until she found an OM to jump right in with.
- she seems to want to act like everything is normal with me. Like we'll still be all buddy buddy (When she wants to of course) after she threw away am 11 year relationship.

My own personal issue is that I'm WAY to willing to blame myself for this. There were things I could have done better to be sure, but I keep going over this in my head, and part of me is still convinced that had I just been more patient and supportive when she was sick (and not worried about our poor sex life) we'd be good now. I talk myself out of this attitude, then back into it, regularly.

W.r.t climbing. I had a major injury and setback a few years ago, and my climbing was mostly sidelined until recently in favor trying to be there for the wife. I climb mid 12s on sport, hard 10/easy 11 on trad.
I've also applied for the AMGA rock guide course this summer.
You?

[reframe]

So, in DR, one of the details of the LRT is to accept SOME but not ALL of the WW invitations to do things.

At what point should I do that? I'm clearly not there. She moved out just under two weeks ago, has an ongoing A (although she doesn't see it that way since we're separated). But it I want to avoid a D at some point I assume I'll need to resume friendly, normal interactions, and allow her to see the positives she is missing?

I'm NOT looking for an excuse to rush this, just wondering how people know when it's time.

[SteveLW]

My own personal issue is that I'm WAY to willing to blame myself for this. There were things I could have done better to be sure, but I keep going over this in my head, and part of me is still convinced that had I just been more patient and supportive when she was sick (and not worried about our poor sex life) we'd be good now. I talk myself out of this attitude, then back into it, regularly.

This is common, especially for those of us that like to be in control. We assume we could have controlled the situation by fixing what we did wrong. However, your W had free-will. You could have been a perfect spouse (NO ONE IS!) and she could have still chosen this path. So yes, you have to forgive yourself and move forward. That means recognizing your deficiencies and fixing them so that you don't repeat your mistakes in the future.

However, no matter how bad of a spouse you were (except for physical abuse of course!) it did not give her the right to look outside of the MR. She could have continued to work at improving things with you instead of using it as an excuse to go find someone else.

I've often thought about the amount of effort it takes to cheat. Think of all the hiding, lying, covering, manipulating, misdirecting, sneaking, coordinating, and keeping all of that straight. It takes a ton of effort to pull that off! If the cheater used that effort and put it into improving their MR instead then they wouldn't need to cheat.

So forgive yourself, recognize where you made mistakes, fix those mistakes, and move forward! That is what I've done.

[LH19]

But it I want to avoid a D at some point I assume I'll need to resume friendly, normal interactions, and allow her to see the positives she is missing?

R,

This is all a mindset you have to first establish before you will see any changes in your situation. You have to get to a point where you say this is BS! Why am I fuching waiting around as plan B while my W sleeps around to see if maybe she will get tired of it and come back to me.

If you have dinner with her, go climbing with her you are going to end up becoming her gay male girlfriend. Next thing you know she will start talking to you about then men she is seeing.

When someone changes the terms of a relationship that you don't agree with you walk away and never look back and she gets the gift of missing you. That is strength my friend.

Good luck!

[Maika]

At what point should I do that? I'm clearly not there. She moved out just under two weeks ago, has an ongoing A (although she doesn't see it that way since we're separated). But it I want to avoid a D at some point I assume I'll need to resume friendly, normal interactions, and allow her to see the positives she is missing?

This is way far into the future my friend. First rule - if she's having an A, you don't spend a second with her unless you absolutely have to and it's business / kid related. IF you have to see her in person, be strong, confident, and like you have your s$#t together.
And if her A is over, you wait for her to initiate. Anything else in my books is pretty much pursuit. You don't want to do any of that. So, this is not even in the cards right now for you. Plus, you need the space right now to get yourself straightened out. Seeing her or having friendly interactions disrupts that process for you.

My own personal issue is that I'm WAY to willing to blame myself for this. There were things I could have done better to be sure, but I keep going over this in my head, and part of me is still convinced that had I just been more patient and supportive when she was sick (and not worried about our poor sex life) we'd be good now. I talk myself out of this attitude, then back into it, regularly.

AnotherStander had made this brilliant insight in my threads way back. I wish it would be stickied. I am going to give you my paraphrased version of it. After BD, the WAS is in a fog and so is the LBS - but both of them are diametrically opposed. The WAS thinks that everything is the LBS's fault, and the LBS believes that everything is their fault. The WAS is projecting their feelings onto the LBS, and the LBS is internalizing it.

Once the fog lifts for the LBS, they start seeing that the WAS had a huge hand in the demise of the MR and they weren't this perfect angel partner that the LBS had created in their heads. This allows the LBS to start on a journey of self-forgiveness and understanding what they need in a partner.

This doesn't mean don't recognize where you failed, but realize that it wasn't as catastrophic as you imagine it to be. The other person f$%#ed up the MR as much too.

So, don't keep playing the blame game. What I did was I made a list of things that she said I sucked at during the MR, and then I added things where I believe I failed. And then I wrote down the context in which those things happened and what was going on with me. And I started forgiving myself because I knew that I did everything I could in those times. And even more importantly, I started seeing how my W failed to have my back when I was down in the dumps and didn't support me.

This is a journey and it takes time. That's why things like NC, going dark, and GAL are methods to protect and stabilize the LBS, so that they can start their healing journey.

Re: climbing - I've always wanted to do it and I didn't put my needs on the table (a huge problem in my MR) and just did things for W and the kids. After BD, it's the first thing I started - got my belay certification and then started climbing. Made some climbing buddies cuz you can do auto-belays for only so long. I've been climbing for 9 months around twice a week, and I am just breaking into low 5.10. I am only doing sport climbing, and some bouldering, but mostly sport. I wanna focus on that. It's been amazing and I love it so much. I got my kids into it and we go together and they're fanatics now.

Looking forward to going outdoors this summer and trying some routes.

[reframe]

Excellent post. I'm getting there at times, but the revelation never sticks.

For example, back a to 2-3 years into our relationship, I became dissatisfied with our sex life. I bought "The Sex Starved Marriage" and read it. W agreed to read it, but never made it beyond half a chapter or so.

I seriously considered leaving them, my logic being that if I expressed how important something was to me, it should also be important to her (and vice-versa). In hindsight that may not have been an unreasonable position, although I blocked it out since I thought things could get better (and they did, just never consistently)

I see that pattern repeating throughout the relationship. To hear her tell it, she "Gave and gave, and I just took".

From my perspective, while she was very loving and supportive at times, she was never able to CONSISTENTLY prioritize any changes to the R that required real and substantial responsibility on her part.

The fog is still there. That and I have OCD. In most areas of life I control it very well, but it does mean that I tend to ruminate on some areas (relationships)...a. lot.

[Maika]

W agreed to read it, but never made it beyond half a chapter or so.

AND

she was never able to CONSISTENTLY prioritize any changes to the R that required real and substantial responsibility on her part.

Boom! There you go! She never put in real effort to something you NEEDED in your MR. And having a satisfying sexual relationship is very much a part of a MR. What you NEEDED wasn't unreasonable, and is not now either.

This is something you should absolutely have with your future partner. If your W ever came back to recon with you, she would have to truly work on this issue because it is important to you. If she balks, you have your answer - she hasn't changed and your needs are not as important to her.

The fog will be there for a bit. It doesn't dissipate instantly. But, you'll get there with consistent positive actions such as GAL, NC and going dark.