No affair, no feelings...is there hope?

[Olya]

Do you ever think that you working on your Master's degree is making her feel insecure? You're living your dreams. She's helping you do it by paying the bills. What does she have at the end? Every now and again, she may get the idea that when you're done with school and working your dream job, you'll just go ahead and leave her for someone more like you.

I know that's how my husband felt, at least for a while. He may still feel this way.

Your wife might feel smart and experienced and sophisticated around these 18-year-old kids in a way that she does not feel around you.

Again, I don't know what the answer to any of this is. But it something to think about and maybe watch for.

[44tries]

Do you ever think that you working on your Master's degree is making her feel insecure?

Your wife might feel smart and experienced and sophisticated around these 18-year-old kids in a way that she does not feel around you.

All the time. I know she respects and admires me because I am smart, educated, and I aim high with my goals and values. Undoubtedly, these are things she desires in a partner. But, I also know that I often make her feel overshadowed simply by being me. She doesn't tell me how smart she thinks I am. But when I'm not around, she brags about to me everyone who will listen. While I'm flattered, this hurts me deeply for two reasons. One, I wish she would be willing to tell me how much she thinks of me rather than just leave it unsaid and understood. There is a sort of 'competitiveness' that I don't really understand or think should be there. But, two, knowing that I contribute in any way to her feeling bad about herself just kills me. I don't want her to feel threatened or like she can't measure up. I think the world of her and accept her just as she is; the fact that she doesn't have the same educational background or opportunity that I did has no bearing on her intelligence or capability. Somehow, I have failed to build her up and let her truly feel that I think she is every bit as great as I do.

Part of it is her own internal struggle, too. She wants to aim high and achieve big things, and at times she feels that she can. Other times, I get the feeling she feels out of place and like she doesn't really have any business climbing that ladder. It's sort of exemplified in her behavior now, like she's saying screw it to quitting smoking, staying on budget, being responsible. She gets this attitude like "this is me, if you don't like it GTFO". But of course, that isn't who she wants to be.

I hadn't really considered whether she might feel resentful for paying the bills while I work toward my goals. I am very aware of it and make sure I do my part to support the household and take a lot of the daily stress off of her. But, it's actually frustrating because sometimes I feel like she forgets/doesn't care that I am a full time student. If she comes home and the house isn't perfect, she might question me what did I do today? She really doesn't cut me any slack or acknowledge that my assignment deadline might have been a little more pressing than vacuuming the couch. I have adjusted though, and I make sure that even if I have a very busy day, I take at least a half hour before she comes home to straighten up and do some obvious chores that will eliminate the thought that I just neglected the house.

I don't know whether she has any worry about me leaving her in the future. I would certainly hope not, but the logic makes sense. Going back to what I wrote to Sandi, though, I'm not even sure if this is something she would think about. I guess there's a chance she is more worried whether she will ever be able to get rid of me if she truly feels that trapped in the marriage.

[Olya]

I find it interesting that she doesn't make many allowances for your current situation, because she certainly seems to give herself a lot of allowances for why she doesn't go through with the steps to commission.

I'm in the opposite boat. I did force him to continue when he got cold feet. I believed it was for the best. Given the chance to go back, I'd do it all over again. He is better off and he is safer where he is today than where he was.

So, if you think about it, you didn't push and I did, but the outcome seems to be the same.

Some of it, I think, has to do with self-love and self-worth. I don't think that either of them believes that they can do better or that they deserve better. Maybe things can change with enough love, care, and understanding. I don't know.

[44tries]

So, if you think about it, you didn't push and I did, but the outcome seems to be the same.

This is interesting. I guess it makes me a feel a bit better like maybe it wouldn't have mattered either way. Ultimately, they are her goals and depend on her own motivation and confidence. If she can't find it in her to make them happen, no one else can do it for her and if they did, I can almost guarantee she would find some way to blame them and say she didn't really do it for herself. This is the main reason I haven't pushed any harder than I have.

Some of it, I think, has to do with self-love and self-worth. I don't think that either of them believes that they can do better or that they deserve better. Maybe things can change with enough love, care, and understanding. I don't know.

Bingo. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think this is a huge cause for their unhappiness. And having a partner who is happy with themselves, meeting goals, and being successful maybe just reminds them all the more. I don't really get it because in my mind, we are a team. If one of us wins, we both win and vice versa. I too feel like all I can give is love, care, and understanding. And I do. My patience is near endless, I can honestly say this is one of my greatest strengths. But I also realize we cannot save them. Again, they have to find a way to save themselves. I just hope I am at least offering a helping hand or supplying one extra tool to help the process along.


Update:

So, I might have screwed up, but I don't think I regret my choice (yet). After another night of incessant texting, and doing a lot of thinking and reading here, I decided to confront her about it last night. If there is some sort of EA and it's directly related to this whole mess, I decided that's a boundary for me and there is no reason I should just sit around watching it happen and wondering. I was calm, respectful, and direct. I simply said, "I've noticed you've been texting a lot lately; is there someone that's more than just a friend?" She said, "Nope, just talking to friends." I said, "Okay I believe you. Not accusing you at all. But it would hurt me a lot more later on to find out you weren't honest with me, so I had to ask." Again, she affirmed it was just friends and that was that.

Well, it seems I unleashed an ogre (stealing your word, Olya). This morning, she was downright pissy. She told me she was taking my car. Hers is leaking oil and "probably has none left". All of the sudden, she's decided it's undriveable. Remember, I told her about this problem last week and put more in for her. She said if it continued to leak she would take it in. Now, it seems to be my problem rather than hers. I said, well now I can't go to the gym. She blew up and said well then you tell me a solution right now because I have to go to work. I told her just go, she slammed the door and was gone.

She didn't come home til 9pm. Now technically she's on shift til midnight, but barring a mission coming down, she gets released at 6. There could have been something today, but there hasn't been one for a while. When she did come home, she did not acknowledge me or say hello. She told the dogs to shut up and immediately went to 'her room' and closed the door. Again, she eats nothing. The poor dogs have been waiting and watching for her all evening and she leaves them to cry at her door without so much as a hello/pet.

Maybe I shouldn't have said anything about the texting. But, I don't think I was in the wrong. I mean it's almost laughable! If she must hide in a closet and neglect all other areas of her life so that she can have her precious phone, then so be it. At least she knows it isn't going unnoticed and she can't play it off as normal anymore. I don't know whether she straight up lied or if she is justifying it to herself that her texting relationship isn't inappropriate. I could easily believe that there is nothing technically incriminating about the conversations. But if she can't sit through a 2hr movie or go to sleep until 5am because she must type away, something is not right.

The only reason I may regret it is because now I've made her choose between me and the phone (we all know who wins that battle). She probably will no longer be content to spend any time with me and text at the same time. I just don't know how much I really feel that's my loss.

[Olya]

You only messed up if you think that you can get over her having an emotional affair. If not, then this is your boundary and it is only fair that she knows about it before she crosses it.

If she continues to act this way, just remain calm. If you feel you need to check her attitude, do it calmly and with dignity. The most satisfaction you can give an Ogre is to take the bait because now you're on morally equal ground and the Ogre has no reason to feel shame for her behavior. Or, better yet, will tell you that you are the insane one, you are the irrational one - this is why she cannot live with you. Do not take the bait.

[44tries]

Well, the regret has arrived and I really wish I hadn't said anything. I told myself I had a lot of good reasons, but really I just think I let my emotions get the better of me.

I drove W to work this morning so that I could have my car. She was slightly less of an ogre, but definitely not nice like she had been before. Then, she brought up me leaving again. "Have you thought anymore about taking a trip home?" I don't know what else I can say to this; she keeps saying 'trip' and that she's not kicking me out, but this is nonsensical. She says I need to have a plan, and she feels like if I just stay here and she's nice to me, I will just keep holding onto the thought that we will get back together. That I am just hoping she 'gets over it' and we can go back to how things were. Says she doesn't want to treat me like an a-hole, but she still feels suffocated and like she can't do things without inviting me, etc.

I told her I'm doing the best I can with a plan. I have a plan, she just doesn't like it. If I could go get a job immediately and support myself, things might be different. I told her I'm not holding onto hope and she can feel free to do whatever she wants (which I now realize was the biggest reason talking about the texting was a mistake). I reminded her that she is the one that wants the separation, not me, but she is trying to put it on me to solve that problem for her. This made her very frustrated and she went into work without responding.

I don't want her to feel like I'm fighting her. And I certainly don't want her to feel like I'm holding onto hope. But she hasn't given me any kind of specific plan or suggestion. She is waiting for me and thinks I'm dragging my feet on purpose. Well, yes, I don't want to leave my home and there is no easy, painless answer. But it feels awful to not be on good terms and definitely feels like that isn't going to be a positive for whatever outcome occurs. I know there will be setbacks and I can't be perfect, but at least we were friendly and she was fine spending time with me and she had backed off the talks about me leaving. Now I've screwed that up. I'm going to try and be patient and not force any big decision and hope her mood improves.

[MoveFrwd]

After another night of incessant texting, and doing a lot of thinking and reading here, I decided to confront her about it last night. If there is some sort of EA and it's directly related to this whole mess, I decided that's a boundary for me and there is no reason I should just sit around watching it happen and wondering.

I understand your intent. But confronting is a dangerous choice. If you go in like a wet noodle, like you did, then it doesnt really do...anything.

I was calm, respectful, and direct. I simply said, "I've noticed you've been texting a lot lately; is there someone that's more than just a friend?" She said, "Nope, just talking to friends." I said, "Okay I believe you. Not accusing you at all. But it would hurt me a lot more later on to find out you weren't honest with me, so I had to ask." Again, she affirmed it was just friends and that was that.

For example, you say this is a 'boundary for you', but what does that even mean? From what I see, you didnt actually state any boundaries. I dont see where you said what you will or wont accept. I dont see where you stated what your recourse is. All you did was, I guess, try to guilt her into something? Ive been there and done exactly the same thing, so Im not judging you.

Question - if she were having an EA, would she tell you?
Question 2 - do you think she cares how you feel about it?

You already know that whatever interaction she is having right now is inappropriate. You dont walk out of a movie several times to go text your friends. NOBODY is that attached to just random friends. So what was the new value in having this conversation?

To me, all it did was reinforce that you arent going to give her space while living together. How can you start to actually give her the space she is asking for?

She told me she was taking my car. Hers is leaking oil and "probably has none left". All of the sudden, she's decided it's undriveable. Remember, I told her about this problem last week and put more in for her. She said if it continued to leak she would take it in. Now, it seems to be my problem rather than hers. I said, well now I can't go to the gym. She blew up and said well then you tell me a solution right now because I have to go to work. I told her just go, she slammed the door and was gone.

So you told her about the problem, she did nothing, and now you are taking this on as your own? You really have to read Sandi's threads because now is a time when you need to exhibit incredible strength. She is going to push you as much as she can and if you show up as a noodly man like this, how can you ever gain back her respect? If she knows she can walk all over you, then why would anything ever change?

[doodler]

I told her I'm doing the best I can with a plan. I have a plan, she just doesn't like it. If I could go get a job immediately and support myself, things might be different. I told her I'm not holding onto hope and she can feel free to do whatever she wants (which I now realize was the biggest reason talking about the texting was a mistake). I reminded her that she is the one that wants the separation, not me, but she is trying to put it on me to solve that problem for her. This made her very frustrated and she went into work without responding.

44tries,

The reality of the situation is that she's lost respect for you. To her you're just a dependent wimpy guy and she's trying to unload you as fast as possible.

You should have a plan for yourself. She won't have to approve of the plan because it's your plan and it's for you. You should plan to get a job and support yourself on your own without her. Continue your education. Continue your growth as a person, and move on.

What you're currently doing isn't working and it's not going to work because you're swimming against the current.

[44tries]

All you did was, I guess, try to guilt her into something? Ive been there and done exactly the same thing, so Im not judging you.

You are completely right and I know I messed up. I should have known better and I was so close to going down the right path, but the wrong voice on my shoulder won out. I convinced myself this was my way to not be a wet noodle by not sitting around letting it happen, but of course, I know, all the wrong things. I am just trying not to beat myself up about and feel like all hope is lost from one mistake. I learned and won't make it again, that's all I can take from it I guess.

Question - if she were having an EA, would she tell you?
Question 2 - do you think she cares how you feel about it?

So, part of the reason I even thought this mattered is because it is a direct piece of the story that she left out. I would have hoped that if her getting giddy about someone else was a major reason for her sudden decision to want out, she would have at least been honest about that. But I know we all hope this, and I know very well why she didn't have the guts to say it. Like I said too, I think she could also be justifying it to herself that the two things are separate. I do think she cares that it would be extra hurtful to me (especially because she knows I just went through all of this with my mom and W talked endlessly about how messed up it was that she waited til there was someone else to actually end things with my dad). That just makes it harder for her to admit what's really going on. I think she cares how I feel, but obviously not more than she cares about her fantasy bubble.

You already know that whatever interaction she is having right now is inappropriate. You dont walk out of a movie several times to go text your friends. NOBODY is that attached to just random friends. So what was the new value in having this conversation?

Nothing. Just me feeling helpless and talking myself into something stupid.

To me, all it did was reinforce that you arent going to give her space while living together. How can you start to actually give her the space she is asking for?

This is exactly what it accomplished, and now I am paying for it. If I want her to trust me that I can live here and she can truly do whatever she wants, it has to be 100% no questions asked and my non-pursuit and detachment has to be air-tight. She already has major doubts about my ability to do that and now I just gave her an action that trumped my words.

So you told her about the problem, she did nothing, and now you are taking this on as your own? You really have to read Sandi's threads because now is a time when you need to exhibit incredible strength. She is going to push you as much as she can and if you show up as a noodly man like this, how can you ever gain back her respect? If she knows she can walk all over you, then why would anything ever change?

This is an issue I am still much less clear on. I have read Sandi's threads and I will reread them again everyday. I do NOT want to be the noodly man. I know that I have lost her respect. But if I want my car and to not be literally imprisoned in this house, and she seems unwilling to address her own car problems, what do I do? Tell her she simply can't use my car? I asked her again this morning what she planned to do about her car problems and she asked me if I had come up with a solution. I know this is her pushing. I just don't have an ultra clear map to follow on how to handle it. I want to 'exhibit incredible strength' and I know that I can, I just need to gain a clear understanding of what this entails and what it doesn't.

[44tries]

The reality of the situation is that she's lost respect for you. To her you're just a dependent wimpy guy and she's trying to unload you as fast as possible.

You should have a plan for yourself. She won't have to approve of the plan because it's your plan and it's for you. You should plan to get a job and support yourself on your own without her. Continue your education. Continue your growth as a person, and move on.

What you're currently doing isn't working and it's not going to work because you're swimming against the current.

Are you saying that you think I should move out? This is something I am still struggling with. I don't want her to force me out, but I don't want to stay for the wrong reasons and create bad blood at the same time. I need to figure out how to balance the fact that she has lost respect for me and also not be difficult. There is no perfect scenario, but I still think staying here is undoubtedly best for me logistically. Emotionally, maybe it isn't. I can get an emergency job here (currently in the works) and save some money and have a cushion to support myself while I search for a real one when I move back stateside. Otherwise, I would have to take a more permanent job that I don't really want (which would take time as well) or stay with family until I have the skills I need to get hired in my new field.

I am trying to stand up for myself by not just letting her push me into running home to mom and dad, but half the time I still wonder if staying is the right choice. You say what I am doing is swimming against the current, but I'm not exactly sure which "what I'm doing" you are referring to.

I know that I need to open the cage and take all pressure off her. She needs to be truly free. The question is whether this is possible while I'm still physically here. She has her doubts. I think if I can air-tight my non-pursuit and detachment, it could be. But it will be harder and maybe the whole process speeds up if I'm gone.

Back to the respect issue, what I really want to know is what is the strongest action I can take that will make her have the most respect for me possible? This is the question I am asking myself and trying to answer. I think the answer will also be what is best for me.