No affair, no feelings...is there hope?

[SteveLW]

Yes, like many of us you're in limbo. And it can last a longtime. Even years.

I will say anger is better than being pathetic and whiny. As long as you control it. I've confronted my wife about various things on and since BD. When I did it as a weepy wimp, she was obviously not attracted and had even an air of disrespect. When I found her online dating profile and confronted her with control anger she at least respected me. I don't think it was a coincidence that we had sex not too long after that.

[Olya]

On the drive home, something interesting happened. She spent most of it texting her friends and I had my thoughts to myself. Casually wondering how she has so much to say over text (I never have such long conversations with people), I had the thought that whether or not she was having an EA (again, I do not have any reason to think this is the case), it didn't really matter. By declaring she is leaving the relationship, she is effectively saying she wants to be in an A. She wants to see other people and live a different life. She is giving up on me and the life that entails. I didn't feel hurt, I felt anger. I thought back to her saying in "the talk" that she didn't have fun with me and I thought, B. S. We had fun today, I don't think even she would debate that. She might be bored, unsatisfied, whatever. And our marriage no doubt has issues. But I think she has lost a bit of my respect for how she has chosen to approach the problem, and today I let myself feel angry about it. I don't know if this is a step forward or back, but it's something different than what I've felt this past week.

This is something that I struggle with as well. The endless texts drive me up the wall, especially in the car - what am I? A chauffeur? Sure, part of me wonders if it's a sign of an affair. But a part of me is simply pissed off by how rude this is. I make small talk with my Ubber drivers, for God's sake!

I've also heard the whole "I don't have fun with you anymore," and it's B.S. in my case too. I think it's easier to leave when you pretend that you (1) never loved the other person, (2) never had good times together, (3) don't have fun around each other, and that (4) there is nothing positive in your marriage. This way, the WAS does not have to feel the pain of ending something. I personally believe that marriages where there has been no abuse, no affairs, and no lies are fundamentally good and salvageable marriages. Most people believe that deep down. WAS needs a reason, so, one is created and suddenly small fixable issues are blown out of proportion, good times are forgotten, and the LBS is the root of all WAS's problems.

So, your anger and your loss of respect are probably coming from this - from realizing how ridiculous and contrived the whole situation is.

I have no idea if this anger is helpful, but I too feel it.

[44tries]

This is something that I struggle with as well. The endless texts drive me up the wall, especially in the car - what am I? A chauffeur? Sure, part of me wonders if it's a sign of an affair. But a part of me is simply pissed off by how rude this is. I make small talk with my Ubber drivers, for God's sake!

EXACTLY this. After all the reading I've done and the circumstances of a 'sudden' decision to just give up, it's hard not to have any suspicions when there is such excessive texting. But, at the end of the day as I said in my previous post, I don't really care if there is an EA or not, it's an intentional decision to put your time and effort elsewhere while also agreeing to spend time with another and it's just plain rude.

I've also heard the whole "I don't have fun with you anymore," and it's B.S. in my case too. I think it's easier to leave when you pretend that you (1) never loved the other person, (2) never had good times together, (3) don't have fun around each other, and that (4) there is nothing positive in your marriage. This way, the WAS does not have to feel the pain of ending something. I personally believe that marriages where there has been no abuse, no affairs, and no lies are fundamentally good and salvageable marriages. Most people believe that deep down. WAS needs a reason, so, one is created and suddenly small fixable issues are blown out of proportion, good times are forgotten, and the LBS is the root of all WAS's problems.

So, your anger and your loss of respect are probably coming from this - from realizing how ridiculous and contrived the whole situation is.

I have no idea if this anger is helpful, but I too feel it.

What you said here validates so much of my thinking; it's spot on. While I don't believe our marriage has no issues and I don't believe in someone feeling unable to express they have a problem, there is just such a feeling of betrayal about the whole thing. Violating that core belief that both people are committed in good faith and barring a few major transgressions, they are going to keep fighting.

I too believe that marriages without those exceptions are fundamentally good and can be saved. To me, that's a big part of what marriage means. Anyway, I'm grateful to hear my same thoughts are internalized by another, but I am so sorry you have to feel it. Today was the hardest day yet for me, but I hope that means I am making progress. I really appreciate your support.

[44tries]

Yes, like many of us you're in limbo. And it can last a longtime. Even years.

I will say anger is better than being pathetic and whiny. As long as you control it. I've confronted my wife about various things on and since BD. When I did it as a weepy wimp, she was obviously not attracted and had even an air of disrespect. When I found her online dating profile and confronted her with control anger she at least respected me. I don't think it was a coincidence that we had sex not too long after that.

I am realizing the reality of how long the limbo can last and how much patience will be required. I'm ready to face that if I have to. This is really good feedback, now that I am feeling anger I have this uncertainty about whether she deserves it or if I should let her see any of it. I am going to try to avoid showing her anything, but if I have to I'm definitely going with controlled anger over pathetic weepiness. It cuts deep to think she doesn't care that I'm hurting, but I have to fight any urge to let my guard down.

[Olya]

Today was the hardest day yet for me, but I hope that means I am making progress. I really appreciate your support.

I'm sorry, man. Wanna share?

[44tries]

I'm sorry, man. Wanna share?

Sure, I just wasn't in the place to write last night. Yesterday some of our friends invited us to go have some beers and go to the movies in the city. W asked if I wanted to go and I said sure, I'll meet them there after my Meetup (which was fun btw). W immediately starts with a double-fist of large beers. Declines to order anything besides a side of fries even though she has eaten nothing that day (this is now about 3pm). We had about two hours to hang out before the movie and it was mostly fine, chatting with friends, but with W constantly making comments about drinking and getting back into "the old days", along with texting at the table even while people are talking to her! She orders another beer and two more to take into the movie.

About 5 minutes into the movie, she says she has to go to the bathroom and doesn't come back for about 20 minutes, at which point I have to go myself and I see her standing in the tunnel entrance on her phone. I ask her what she's doing on my way by and she says, "texting" with a goofy smile and I can tell she's drunk. I say in the friendliest tone I can muster, "maybe you should go watch the movie" and continue on my way. She does go back to her seat, but continues to text throughout the movie, make comments about how she can't sit there any longer and needs a cigarette, and literally chews all her nails off (she is not a nail-biter). I was horrified and embarrassed. She didn't even say goodbye to our friends when they went their separate way afterward.

When we got home, she tells me to "watch her babies" (we have three large dogs that are basically our kids) and that she's walking to hang out with a couple that live down the street. Now, I had a couple beers as well and this is where I slipped up for a second. I asked her why I couldn't come along, because I knew what was going to happen after she left and didn't want to face it. I could feel myself losing control of my emotions. I immediately kicked myself for asking. She said she wanted to go alone and this is what she explained to me before (referring to when she said she felt "disrespectful" to not invite me). I told her have a good time and she left. Sure enough, everything hit me like a ton of bricks. I broke down. All of the anger, all of the hurt, I felt it in full force.

There is something especially painful about going through one of the worst times of your life and not only not having your best friend to turn to, but knowing they're the one to cause your pain because they went back on their end of the pact. I feel for every person that has ever had to face divorce or even the threat of it. I don't believe that my wife doesn't care about me because deep down I know she does, but yesterday she was like a stranger. Her behavior is erratic and worrisome, especially the fact that she hasn't been eating.

The very first event that began this nightmare was two weeks ago when she wanted to go out with the kids she was working with (the same ones she is now texting constantly). This was before everything changed and she was her normal, loving self asking if I was sure I didn't mind and saying I was the best. I didn't want to go that night and I told her to have some fun and I was totally okay with it. I know she needs space and she doesn't go out much, so probably needed a night of fun. I trusted her 100% and didn't have a thought or clue I might be making a mistake. I thought I was doing the right thing, I mean how can she say I am suffocating when she goes out to clubs all night and comes home at 6 in the morning, and I don't have one thing to say about it?? The problem is that she wanted to go again the next night (which I was present for) and then in the same week, had to take her overnight trip to go party with the kids yet again (and still, I have no problem and tell her she should go, I'll drop her off and pick her up at the train station). I say kids because these are literally teenagers, who have been in the military for barely over one year. Little did I know she was going to come back and end our marriage. I have been nothing but gracious and trusting (something I have struggled to be in the past), and I feel like she threw it back in my face and made me a fool.

She had plenty of time to be crazy and have fun when she was 20, and she did. It's not like we're old now, we can still go out on occasion. But, she's 26 and married with responsibilities. I am downright pissed off that she has left me to be the one making sure everything doesn't fall into disarray. I dealt with the dogs last night while it stormed and they caused hell and she was gone. This morning, she can't even manage to walk five feet from the empty bin and get a new bag of dog food out of the closet. She says she doesn't have time, she'll feed them tonight, sorry. Just like she said she'll do the dishes and her own laundry. Well the dishes are still sitting there and the laundry baskets are overflowing.

At first, I was sympathetic to the fact she is unhappy and thought, she can't help it how she feels (or doesn't feel) about me. But, now I want to call her out for throwing every commitment she ever made out the window. And let her know that she's lost my respect. I know it won't be well-received, though, and her behavior is not sustainable. This is where patience becomes harder than it looks and I need to keep working and know that progress may not happen overnight. Being at peace with the fact that it may never happen is the hardest part.

[Olya]

Sooooo... yeaaaaah... This is not appropriate at all.

I will say this: I find that military lends itself nicely to a midlife crisis. You'd think 40, but you'd be wrong. These people start to feel old in their late 20's. If a servicemember joined later (like let's say early to mid 20's as opposed to at 18), it just makes it that much worse. My husband, who is turning 30 at the end of next month, believes that he is old and broken. Even lateraling over to officer corps did not change how he feels. Many of the other lieutenants are in their early 20s. He's not, and even though he is in a great physical shape and does not look a day over 25, deep down this eats at him. Our big relationship meltdown had to do with him believing that he will be too old to enjoy fatherhood if we wait until he is 34 to 36. Seriously. Now he suddenly does not want kids and, should I get pregnant, he'd want me to terminate the pregnancy. (Not that we've had any sex lately.)

I'd be lying if I said that I had answers to what to do about this. But maybe it gives you a better idea of what's going on.


All that said, you cannot allow her to embarrass you this way.

There is absolutely nothing that you can do about her behavior. You can either leave or you can let it run its course and see if you can forgive her at the end of it.

However, what she did the other night is 100% unacceptable. Please, continue to hang out with your mutual friends. Make plans with them. Make sure that those plans do not include her. A vague "I think she's going through some tough time and needs her space" should be enough of an explanation if anyone asks.

Now, if she asks whether she can come, the answer is no. If she simply tries to come along, let her know in your calmest tone that she is no longer welcome to accompany you when you go to see other people, especially people you both know, because the last time she went her behavior was mortifying and you will not be embarrassed like that again.

Keep letting her laundry and dishes pile.

[sandi2]

If you were to discover that your W is having an EA/PA, would that be a deal breaker for you?

Before answering, I want to point out something. First, I am not here promoting divorce as the answer to marriage problems. Now with that said, I do find it disturbing that you and your W were newly weds when she started showing signs of losing interest & attraction for her H. When you see sudden changes (less talkative, distant, cooler, needed more privacy, less attentive, less interested, less sex, etc.) it can certainly suggest that there is a third party.....somewhere.

Some men stay in denial by making statements such as, "I've decided to believe/trust her". All cheaters lie. So, even if confronted, she may not be truthful.

She sounds as if she is a "caring" type of person who doesn't want to intentionally cause you pain. However, if she does not feel in love with you, I think she'll try to conceal what is really happening.....b/c she knows it will be hurtful. There may not be a third person, and she may feel she made a mistake in getting M too quickly.....and now, she doesn't know how to get out of it without hurting you. That would make sense, if she was hoping you'd be proactive in getting the D.

I hope you will wait a good while before even thinking of having children with her. At this point, both of you are still very young with many years ahead. I hope you won't have to spend your life convincing her she loves you.

Some young ladies have a lot of expectations of a MR. If the H or the relationship fails to deliver everything she dreamed, then resentment sets in.....and can lead to other issues. It may be a matter of her needing to grow up more. If you were my son, I would tell you think very carefully and examine your heart about how deeply you feel for a woman who wants out this soon after the wedding.

[44tries]

I will say this: I find that military lends itself nicely to a midlife crisis. You'd think 40, but you'd be wrong.

I think this is so true. I have met way too many members who joined straight out of high school because they didn't know what else to do and are now 10 years into their career and have no real fulfillment or direction. They have a lot of 'what if' regrets and their best days were probably in the beginning when they were young, getting a fresh full-time paycheck for the first time, and partying in the dorms with all their peers who were right there with them. This can definitely induce MLC-like symptoms at a premature age like late 20s.

A little background on my wife in particular, she definitely has a lot of 'what if' regret. She was a good student in high school and a basketball star. She had college scholarships lined up to play and she wanted to be a nurse. Then, in her senior year, something happened and she was no longer allowed to play basketball. She lost her scholarships and was in a very bad place. She pulled herself together and got a CNA and worked in a VA home for a year before she decided she wanted a refresh and joined the military at 19. Now, she has had a very successful career because she is smart, motivated, and really cares unlike a lot of said members who just do it because they have nothing else. She has a lot of passion and is very ambitious about wanting to be successful in life and do better than where she came from.

In the past couple years, she has been knocking out prerequisites to do a nursing commissioning program or, more recently, considering the military's PA program. I have been really supportive and think this is great, as I think education is really important. But, there is this constant sort of indecisiveness in her. She lost a lot confidence since her original plans went bust and I don't think she ever quite gained it back. She has a lot of regret about basketball because her career was cut short way too soon and she misses it and now feels old and like the ship has sailed (sadly probably true if she wanted to do anything serious with it).

I understand that once you have a full-time job and stability, it's hard to break that cycle and pursue something totally new. But, I know deep down she won't forgive herself if she never gets a degree or pursues her dream to work in healthcare. Just like how she still can't forgive herself now for screwing up her basketball career. The problem is knowing how hard to push her and when, because I think all of my talk and support in getting her to keep working and make it a reality has contributed to me being controlling. She has times where she is really motivated and on board and then phases where she doubts herself and normal work gets overwhelming and she feels she can't do it. I think now she might be at the point where she doesn't know if she wants to do it for herself or because I want her to and I present it as the 'right' decision. I know this is really bad and was never my intention, but it's a really good example of how I may have made her feel like she couldn't be her own person or make good decisions on her own. I am aware now of how much confidence building she needs and how she needs to feel like she got there on her own rather than with a big boost/push from me.

Anyway, I think a lot of this life stress has taken its toll and is definitely contributing to her 'crisis' right now. I don't want to absolve myself of blame or deny the marriage problems, but I certainly think it's a perfect storm type situation. Life is just complicated that way. I will continue to hang out with our friends and not allow her to embarrass me or herself. The scary thing is I don't know if she even thought her behavior was unacceptable. Luckily, I was much more aware of everything than our friends were, but I'm pretty sure they could tell she wasn't herself. I'm going to try and let it run it's course. It's very hard to refrain from doing my usual supporting activities because it's one of the only ways left that I feel I can show her love, since saying it out loud or any physical contact is out of the question. Silent, subtle actions that show I still care about making her life a little better/easier are all I've got.

[44tries]

If you were to discover that your W is having an EA/PA, would that be a deal breaker for you?

So, my answer is probably no. I can't say for sure since I don't think I can predict exactly how I would feel and it would depend on the details of the situation. If I found out she has physically cheated on me, I would be very shocked and I don't know for sure if I could move past it. That said, I can tell you with nearly 100% confidence that there has not been any type of A going on for any length of time. I know there is one 'kid' in her new texting circle that she texts more than the others, to an excessive degree, but this has been happening for literally a week. Since she had her week of suddenly wanting to party with them, they left to go back to the states, and that is when the texting started. So if there is an EA, it has just recently developed. The hypothetical situation would be: She went out with them, something sparked with one of them, she decided she wanted the freedom to talk to and text whoever she wanted, it pushed her to decide just how unhappy she was in our marriage so she could end it and gain said freedom. I can also say if this was what is going on, it's ridiculous because she is not going to have a serious relationship with a teenager living on the other side of the world. I would be much more concerned with how quickly she decided to just give up and explore such illogical relationships.

She has not been consistently distant since we got married. It is a cycle. Majority of the time, things are fine (with the exception of the sex-life which has been a slow and steady downhill climb, and I am well aware this is a big exception/problem). But she is still affectionate, loving, supportive and 'close'. Then, she will suddenly have her moments of doubt. Make her vague comments about being unsure of me and her happiness. These have become more and more infrequent, but more and more serious. Last year was the first time she actually said she felt 'done' with trying. I told her things could change, and I really do believe there have been positive and lasting changes since then. Everything was on an uptick finally, I thought. There has been no discussion of major issues since then, until now. This is the worst 'bottom of the cycle' we have experienced (obviously it can't really get much worse).

It is much more likely than an A, that the answer lies in your comment about feeling that she got M too quickly. We both know and acknowledge that our relationship was rushed in the beginning. It's not like we met and got married in the same week, month, or even year; but as I said in my original post, military logistics probably pressured us to do it sooner rather than waiting. At the moment, she probably does feel like she wants to get out of it now without hurting me and doesn't know how.

I will definitely never have children with her unless things become drastically different/better than they are now. I am in no rush and I do not intend to ever bring kids into this world unless I am absolutely sure that to the best of my knowledge they will never have a broken home. It has been enough of a struggle for me in the past few years to not be absolutely sure of her feelings, just for myself. I can't wait around forever for her to make up her mind and keep going back and forth. I trusted in good faith that if she made the decision to marry me, she had finally let go of her doubts. But I realize now that was far too idealistic.

I feel like she has always kept one foot out the door, paralyzed to actually fully step in and close it. She has even explicitly told me that, after her previous relationship before me, she will never allow herself to feel that she needs someone that way again. I don't believe our marriage will ever be complete/healthy until this changes. I feel like I've offered her all my marbles and she's held a precious few of hers back. As I've mentioned to Olya, she has some major vulnerability issues. I love her with all my heart and if she can trust anyone in this world, it's me. It is heartbreaking to me that somehow this connection has failed to be made.

I very much relate to your statement that perhaps everything has not fufilled her wildest dreams and she has resentment. I think this is at least a piece of the pie. I am also unsure of my own expectations for marriage. I am not under the impression there will never be bad times, and that sometimes the choice to be committed is all that will get you through. But, I do feel like I should be able to have more security in her feelings than I do, and I agree with you that the fact these issues are rearing their head so early on is concerning. I really appreciate your sentiment and I will keep it in mind.