No affair, no feelings...is there hope?

[44tries]

Yes. Until and unless she says it, you don't know where you stand with her or what her terms are.

Agreed. This has basically been my situation for the past year because she never did explicitly say anything. I don't want that to happen again.

[44tries]

Update:

Whew, sitting down and writing this minutes after conversation between W and I, ended because she had to leave for work. She initiated the talk by asking again if I had any more thoughts. I could tell this time she definitely meant about logistics, leaving, etc. I know I don't have a good answer for this, because deep down the fact is that I don't want to. On top of the fact that it's going to be a difficult mess without easy answers even if I did want to. I told her I am doing what I need to prepare myself, but valued her input as well. She said she was worried we would just live together for the next ten months tip-toeing around each other. Or falling back into our old, unhappy ways. Valid.

The good news is, I feel like despite everything she said, she gave me hope. She did not completely close the door. I tried to follow Amoafwl's line "I don't think a definitive decision to divorce/separate is the answer, but I respect your decision if it's what you feel is best."

Somehow we started getting on a little tangent about how she feels pressured and pushed by me to do things I want and not her. My rational arguments make her second guess herself. Because I have been so pushy in the past, she feels she can't trust me when I say make the decision for yourself, I am completely okay with whatever you choose. She said it's bad for someone with her personality, there is no way to relieve that pressure. I started trying to offer answers, but stopped myself. Don't want to get ahead of myself, but it's also extremely difficult to shake that desperate feeling to show her it can be different.

She ended by saying we are past that now, right now at this moment she is not in the place to think that way. She made her decision and she needs to try separation. Honestly, I just feel joy and relief that she left it open that she might feel like trying again in the future. Now, I just don't want to screw up and close that little crack in the door. I hope I didn't already, she seemed a little bit frustrated when she left. I feel paralyzed and like any step I take could be a land mine. I DO respect her choice and am willing to give her true separation. But it seems she doesn't feel that living together meets that criteria, but doesn't have an answer to what will.

Last night, I felt I could almost reach out and touch her internal struggle with everything. She has been playing sad music, lingering around looking at me with puppy dog eyes. For the first time, I feel sure that my hope is not just delusional, wishful thinking. But it's hanging by a thread and that totally freaks me out.

Any advice appreciated.

[44tries]

So, after the conversation from the update I posted above, I’ve been taking a step back and doing some more thinking. I'm trying to truly lay out my options and answer the logistical questions for myself 1. because they need to be answered and 2. because clearly it's an elephant in the room and she needs some answers too. She asked if I had thought about taking a trip. Or staying with family. These are two VERY different things in mind, but maybe not as much as I think. I'm going to get my personal thoughts "on paper" here and lay out my three possible scenarios for the next ten months (remember this is the built in timeline because it's how much time we have left living here at this location).

Scenario 1: This is my ideal scenario and one that is essentially already ruled out because it doesn't seem to be what she wants, but I'm going to flesh it out anyway. I wish we could use this bomb drop as a true wake up call that our marriage is in critical condition. I wish she had said, "Look, I've been thinking and the way I am feeling, I don't know that I want you on my next orders or to keep living this life with you. I'm unhappy and it isn't sustainable. If something doesn't change, our marriage is going to end." She didn't say this, she basically told me she had been thinking and made the decision to give up on her own. I would never blame her for the way she feels because I know she can't help it, but there is part of me that thinks the approach is unfair. Blindsiding me after I had thought all our issues were improving, and writing off the chance to use the time we have here to do some 180s together and try things we never tried before, is frustrating. I'm not holding on to this anger, but it's there and I'm getting it out here rather than at her. We committed to coming here together for two years when she got her assignment, I quit my job, and we moved our lives across the globe. The commitment of marriage being lifelong aside, at a minimum we had a very clearly defined two year timeline.

Scenario 2: She mentioned the idea of a trip, and clearly sleeping in separate rooms isn't her idea of real separation. So, I could take a trip for a couple weeks to a nearby country, make some new friends, and allow us both to breathe. It would be a little difficult to put off my schoolwork as I'm getting close to spring finals and in the thick of things. But it's probably possible without causing too much detriment and I would be willing to make it work. Obviously, this is going to cost some money but I think we would both be willing to invest a little in giving each other the space we really need. My hope would be that I come back and she's more open to trying something like Scenario 1. If not, I would have to move to Scenario 3.

Scenario 3: I could skip straight here and avoid the cost of the Scenario 2 trip if it wasn't worthwhile (this is something I don't know how to decide because it's up to her and how she feels and I don't think she would even be able to guess). This is a bit more extreme than a local trip. I could pack a couple bags, everything I would need to live minimally for up to a maximum of 10 months, and go stay with family back home in the states. Also an incurred cost for the long flight, but if she doesn't want me under this roof, that's unavoidable. I can stay with them as long as I need and keep putting my head down on my studies and job preparation, while keeping communication lines with her open and we would agree to re-evaluate every few weeks. If she decides the separation has "worked" and she wants to try again, she can ask me to come home. If not, I will be focused on myself and preparation for life apart, and at the end of the 10 months I will come back and help her with separating what's left of our stuff, doing move-out duties, pick up my dog, ship my car etc. All the more "permanent" stuff. By then, I will be ready to apply for jobs in my new field even if they are very entry level, as long as I can support myself while finishing my master's, this is fine. I get a new job, new apartment, my new life begins.

I am okay with the fact that the next ten months probably won't be much fun and will be a lot of hard work. I know I will come out a stronger person, whatever happens, and be prepared to close the chapter of my life that involved her and not look back. I won't give up hope until then, but at least I have a definitive timeline for how long I will hang on. I agree with her that trying to do all this under the same roof IF she isn't open to doing any work on our marriage, is probably not healthy. She has explicitly stated she is NOT kicking me out, but at the same time we are in an awkward limbo that can’t be ignored. It is more comfortable for me here and it is my home, but if I'm honest the main reason I don't want to leave is because I (maybe falsely?) think the chances of reconciliation are higher if I'm at least physically present.

Now, my issue is how do I go about communicating all of this to her?? She keeps asking for my "thoughts", well those are my thoughts, but it doesn’t feel like I should just show all my cards. I DO NOT want to put pressure on her, as this is clearly a major issue already, but how is there not pressure when there is this timed separation and we're facing a deadline? How is there not pressure if she's knows I'm just waiting/hoping for her to ask me to come home? I can GAL and focus on myself till the cows come home, but this will always remain true at the end of the day. Until she moves from this house to a new country and I have a new job and home, I will be fighting for the marriage.

That was long and if anyone actually took the time to read it, thank you. Truly. I’m hoping for third party input before making any decisions or talking to her about anything.

[doodler]

44tries,

I know you're going to hate this, but the sooner you can say, "Adios babeeee; have a great life" the better your chances are of saving your marriage. But, I understand that's almost impossible to do because of the psychological barriers. We all become Klingons on BD and we just can't seem to stop clinging.

[MoveFrwd]

Scenario 1: This is my ideal scenario and one that is essentially already ruled out because it doesn't seem to be what she wants, but I'm going to flesh it out anyway. I wish we could use this bomb drop as a true wake up call that our marriage is in critical condition. I wish she had said, "Look, I've been thinking and the way I am feeling, I don't know that I want you on my next orders or to keep living this life with you. I'm unhappy and it isn't sustainable. If something doesn't change, our marriage is going to end." She didn't say this, she basically told me she had been thinking and made the decision to give up on her own. I would never blame her for the way she feels because I know she can't help it, but there is part of me that thinks the approach is unfair. Blindsiding me after I had thought all our issues were improving, and writing off the chance to use the time we have here to do some 180s together and try things we never tried before, is frustrating. I'm not holding on to this anger, but it's there and I'm getting it out here rather than at her. We committed to coming here together for two years when she got her assignment, I quit my job, and we moved our lives across the globe. The commitment of marriage being lifelong aside, at a minimum we had a very clearly defined two year timeline. [quote]
Throw this in the garbage, because it aint happening. Trust me when I say that she likely communicated similar needs to you in the past and they were blown off. Do you know why this time you are suddenly springing to action? Because SHE is starting to take some action. Because this time, she finally means business. Pushing for this option only invalidates the struggle she has been enduring for years.

[quote=44tries]Scenario 2: She mentioned the idea of a trip, and clearly sleeping in separate rooms isn't her idea of real separation. So, I could take a trip for a couple weeks to a nearby country, make some new friends, and allow us both to breathe. It would be a little difficult to put off my schoolwork as I'm getting close to spring finals and in the thick of things. But it's probably possible without causing too much detriment and I would be willing to make it work. Obviously, this is going to cost some money but I think we would both be willing to invest a little in giving each other the space we really need. My hope would be that I come back and she's more open to trying something like Scenario 1. If not, I would have to move to Scenario 3.

NOTHING is going to be solved in a two week time period. Whats the result after this trip? You go back to how it is now? I dont see the point. Now, if you want to go on this trip for GAL, then go for it!

Scenario 3: I could skip straight here and avoid the cost of the Scenario 2 trip if it wasn't worthwhile (this is something I don't know how to decide because it's up to her and how she feels and I don't think she would even be able to guess). This is a bit more extreme than a local trip. I could pack a couple bags, everything I would need to live minimally for up to a maximum of 10 months, and go stay with family back home in the states. Also an incurred cost for the long flight, but if she doesn't want me under this roof, that's unavoidable. I can stay with them as long as I need and keep putting my head down on my studies and job preparation, while keeping communication lines with her open and we would agree to re-evaluate every few weeks. If she decides the separation has "worked" and she wants to try again, she can ask me to come home. If not, I will be focused on myself and preparation for life apart, and at the end of the 10 months I will come back and help her with separating what's left of our stuff, doing move-out duties, pick up my dog, ship my car etc. All the more "permanent" stuff. By then, I will be ready to apply for jobs in my new field even if they are very entry level, as long as I can support myself while finishing my master's, this is fine. I get a new job, new apartment, my new life begins.

So she says SHE wants a separation, and your first thought is to go running back to another country. Why is it that YOU are the one that needs to plan all of this? Why cant she find some alternative? (just like with the sleeping arrangement).I just dont understand totally uprooting yourself for 10 months on some chance of 'some spark' or something. I just dont see how a temporary accommodation will do anything. My ex and I had a plan to separate to give space and see how things go and within 2 weeks, she was saying she wanted a divorce. I didnt know about OM then, but that isnt really important.

I just think setting yourself up to 10 months of 'checking in monthly' and you living your life based on her whims is a good long term plan.

You may want to read the threads from BEClem. He moved to his parents house for a '6 month separation' and could never get back in the house. He wrote a lot so I think there are many threads, but it was an interesting trip.

he has explicitly stated she is NOT kicking me out, but at the same time we are in an awkward limbo that can’t be ignored. It is more comfortable for me here and it is my home, but if I'm honest the main reason I don't want to leave is because I (maybe falsely?) think the chances of reconciliation are higher if I'm at least physically present.

Its your home and you are most comfortable there. Why is it your job to go 'live minimally' so she can figure her crap out?

Now, my issue is how do I go about communicating all of this to her?? She keeps asking for my "thoughts", well those are my thoughts, but it doesn’t feel like I should just show all my cards. I DO NOT want to put pressure on her, as this is clearly a major issue already, but how is there not pressure when there is this timed separation and we're facing a deadline? How is there not pressure if she's knows I'm just waiting/hoping for her to ask me to come home? I can GAL and focus on myself till the cows come home, but this will always remain true at the end of the day. Until she moves from this house to a new country and I have a new job and home, I will be fighting for the marriage.

1) No. Dont show all of your cards.

2) Let her ask for your thoughts...
"This is my home, and Im not planning to leave. I will not hold you here, if you would like some time or space away."
What more do you need to say?

3) GAL and focusing on you IS SO THAT YOU STOP WAITING ON HER. Like I asked you before, why is she the only one that gets to have that power in this relationship. I think this is a very important question:
"Does she have any fear that she might lose you?"
If that answer is no, then what incentive is there for her to turn back to you as a partner? If she knows that she can do or say whatever she wants and youll be there for her, then what negative is there for her to keep going as she wants?

[44tries]

44tries,

I know you're going to hate this, but the sooner you can say, "Adios babeeee; have a great life" the better your chances are of saving your marriage. But, I understand that's almost impossible to do because of the psychological barriers. We all become Klingons on BD and we just can't seem to stop clinging.

I don't hate it. Yes, it feels almost impossible because accepting she is gone and moving on cannot live in the same space as wanting to save the marriage. Fighting and surrendering at the same time. But, I understand the point, and majority of the time it may unfortunately be true.

[MoveFrwd]

Yes, it feels almost impossible because accepting she is gone and moving on cannot live in the same space as wanting to save the marriage.

I wholeheartedly, 100% disagree with this sentiment.

The way I see it, you need to live your life as if she is not going to 'come around'. Part of that means accepting that the relationship is over.

That does not at all mean that you need to stop wanting to save your marriage. What if I told you that doing ^^^ IS the best way to save your marriage?

[44tries]

Throw this in the garbage, because it aint happening. Trust me when I say that she likely communicated similar needs to you in the past and they were blown off. Do you know why this time you are suddenly springing to action? Because SHE is starting to take some action. Because this time, she finally means business. Pushing for this option only invalidates the struggle she has been enduring for years.

Thanks for reinforcing this. I know it isn't happening, at least not right now. But since I'm saying this to you, not her, I wanted to get it out to complete my thoughts and let it go. It's good to be reminded about not invalidating the struggle.

NOTHING is going to be solved in a two week time period. Whats the result after this trip? You go back to how it is now? I dont see the point. Now, if you want to go on this trip for GAL, then go for it!

I agree. I don't have high hopes for this option because it isn't very logical. But, I feel about how you do about all the options. How do I form a new option that allows to remain in the house and compromises with her on her desire for space? You say to let her figure it out. This is what I have been trying and I guess I will continue to field the "thoughts" questions and allow her to be the one to make a definitive plan. But, I also realize it's not possible for her to be the one to leave or she probably would. I guess not my problem?

So she says SHE wants a separation, and your first thought is to go running back to another country. Why is it that YOU are the one that needs to plan all of this? Why cant she find some alternative? (just like with the sleeping arrangement).I just dont understand totally uprooting yourself for 10 months on some chance of 'some spark' or something. I just dont see how a temporary accommodation will do anything. My ex and I had a plan to separate to give space and see how things go and within 2 weeks, she was saying she wanted a divorce. I didnt know about OM then, but that isnt really important.

I just think setting yourself up to 10 months of 'checking in monthly' and you living your life based on her whims is a good long term plan.

You may want to read the threads from BEClem. He moved to his parents house for a '6 month separation' and could never get back in the house. He wrote a lot so I think there are many threads, but it was an interesting trip.

I will try to find his threads. This is good for reinforcing that separation, whether "trial" or not, isn't a good answer. Sometimes this isn't clear since it seems so common. Again, I totally agree with your questions. It sounds like you think I should just stay planted until if and when I'm forced to move?

I just don't want to deny her space, because I do think that she needs it and it seems pretty important in everything I've read. And I understand her hands are fairly tied when her job is here and she isn't even in a position where she could take leave and follow her trip idea for herself right now. I was hoping the separate rooms and leaving her alone and doing my own thing even when she's home is enough. She made a strange comment this morning about how she felt she had to come home and sit if she knew I was here. She said it would be "disrespectful" to go do things without me. I told her she was absolutely free to go and do whatever she wanted and I have no expectations or demands otherwise. I'm not sure if she meant if she hung out with mutual friends and didn't invite me that she felt this would be wrong or what. She is nearly as isolated as me because we are at a fairly remote location where the base is tiny and she doesn't have many friends here either. Anyway, I get it, not my problem.

"Does she have any fear that she might lose you?"
If that answer is no, then what incentive is there for her to turn back to you as a partner? If she knows that she can do or say whatever she wants and youll be there for her, then what negative is there for her to keep going as she wants?

Great question and I see the point. Although, it does seem to run counter to the idea of digging my heels in and not leaving. How can I show her she can lose me while also refusing to leave? The answer I suppose lies in GAL. I hope she doesn't feel "disrespected" when I go to Meetup events without her...


Last note for the day, she asked me to come to her work because she left her medication at home and she had something to give me. I won't deny her medicine so I agreed and she pulled out a gift--something I have wanted for a while and isn't exactly cheap. What the heck?? I don't want her guilt gifts.

[doodler]

doodler waxes with metaphor...

Here in Florida, we constantly hear about someone drowning in a rip current. The reason they drown is that they do what's intuitive; they swim toward shore. Unfortunately, what they end up doing when they swim toward shore is exhausting themselves and then they panic and drown. Game over.

To save themselves, all they really have to do is surrender to the current, and float a little further away from shore, then swim laterally to get out of the current. It seems so easy when you're not the one who's panicking in an outgoing current.

44tries, you're panicking and you're going to exhaust yourself and drown. Relax a little and go with the flow.

[44tries]

I wholeheartedly, 100% disagree with this sentiment.

The way I see it, you need to live your life as if she is not going to 'come around'. Part of that means accepting that the relationship is over.

That does not at all mean that you need to stop wanting to save your marriage. What if I told you that doing ^^^ IS the best way to save your marriage?

Hmm, well in my mind there are two versions of moving on and accepting she is gone.

The kind I think doodler means is the true, 100% IDGAF anymore I am over and done with you kind. So, what I meant was I can't do IDGAF and simultaneously want to save the marriage because that, by definition, is GAF.

The kind that I would assume you mean is the best way to save a marriage is the loving something and letting it go kind. Accepting that she may very well be gone, not fighting it, and getting on with life despite GAF. Like you said, living as if she's gone. Am I wrong and they are somehow the same?