Help evaluating LRT progress

[Cadet]

I'm not an MLC expert, but it doesn't sound like he's MLC to me (usually there would be wreckless spending, affairs, a sudden interest in personal appearance, etc.)

So, I initially read this as you thinking that he DOES have MLC.

I went exploring the resources and found the Midlife for Dummies thread. Except for children and affair, it fits. It was like having someone describe to me in vivid detail what my life has been like for the past year and a half.

And the only reason he's not spending us into the ground is because I have put my foot down around the time when this has started and I no longer let him.

If he does have MLC, I'm honestly not sure what I want to do about this whole situation.

Just my .02 - there does not need to be extreme spending for it to be MLC.
And whether it is WAS or MLC - it does not change what YOU do!
Advice is what my first post states for either one.

[Olya]

I feel like I've been living with a crazy person, and I really don't want the crazy to rub off.

Remember that it's only crazy if you try to apply YOUR logic to it. To him, Im sure it all makes complete sense.

Thats why the rule around here is to not believe anything they say. Not because theyre lying to you, but because theres so much fluidity and contradiction and it will lead you on wild goose chases to try to understand.

Yeah, I've been getting a sense of that more and more.

Problem is, I just don't buy it - not completely.

I understand that a crazy person may think that his behavior is sane and that it makes sense. That does not make it normal. It is still objectively crazy behavior. When contradicting things make sense depending on the time of day, when you cannot remember where you were last Christmas, when you disassociate yourself from your actions to a point where a whole year is conveniently gone from your memory - that is not normal.

I pretty much gave up trying to understand. I am doing my best to forgive and empathize. I am even willing to wait until he is ready to get help and support him when he does. However, I have very little respect left for him right now and none for his "logic." It is not another shade of normal and if I start validating it by telling myself that it is, I'll go crazy alongside him.

Right now, I am living with a crazy person and that crazy is what I'm getting some distance from. He will be leaving for 10 months on the 27th of May. At this point, it cannot come soon enough. At the very least, for the times when I am home, I will be able to sleep without being waken up in the middle of the night by a lunatic yelling "get off me" and "don't touch me." Is he laying awake half the night waiting for my elbow or forearm to touch him so that he can then throw a fit!?

I love that man, but not the behavior that is beneath him.

Sorry if I came off snippy, but unlike 44tries, this is my second time through the same minefield, and there was a lot of emotional and verbal abuse the first time around. I think I might be more done than I thought I was.

[Olya]

And whether it is WAS or MLC - it does not change what YOU do!
Advice is what my first post states for either one.

I think it might, Cadet. I'm not entirely sure that I'm willing to stick around for the full MLC.

[44tries]

I promise you, he intended it this way.

I will never understand intentionally hurting someone, especially your spouse, whether you are in love with them or not. It's interesting because this has reminded me of a time where I remembering researching why someone would do this...because my wife used to act similarly! I had almost forgotten about those times, they were not fun. But she would purposefully say hurtful things, some of them downright awful, and I was appalled. To the point where I seriously questioned why I would even want to be with her.

My conclusion was that she was trying her best to push me away and see if I would bail. She felt vulnerable and then lashed out. She would later apologize and say she knew how terrible it was. Never said she would cheat on me, however. If it helps, she does not act this way at all anymore. It's one of the ways she has grown a lot and our communication has drastically improved. We don't resort to dirty methods.

I do know I've read though that sometimes that passion, even though it's negative, can actually be better than apathy. Don't know if there's truth in that, but I know how much it hurts. I would bet it's more bark than bite, but still totally unacceptable.

[Olya]

In our relationship, I have always been the emotional one. I can get stressed out and lash out or overreact. It's a failing and I know that. I've worked hard to not act like this and my outbursts have been far more sparse than when we first got married. I don't mean to be hurtful when I do it and I apologize when I realize that I have crossed the line. Afterwards, I feel guilty for days.

My husband tends to keep things bottled in and lets them fester. When he is being hurtful, it is not a temper flare up. He is calm and intends for it to hurt. In those moments, he does not care about the pain that he causes. When the moment passes, he disassociates himself from what he said because in his mind, he's not that kind of a person. He neither apologizes nor eats himself alive over what he said or did. I think this goes along with being incredibly stubborn, which he is.

His emotional outbursts are rare and come in the form of sadness, fear, and grief. He usually needs alcohol before this can happen and, one way or another, they are always about abandonment.

[44tries]

In our relationship, I have always been the emotional one. I can get stressed out and lash out or overreact. It's a failing and I know that. I've worked hard to not act like this and my outbursts have been far more sparse than when we first got married. I don't mean to be hurtful when I do it and I apologize when I realize that I have crossed the line. Afterwards, I feel guilty for days.

This sounds more like my wife. Except I do think she meant to be hurtful at the time of her outbursts. But, for both of you, I understand that this is part of your personality and while you have had to learn how to have better emotional control, this same trait has values in other ways. It took me a long time to understand the idea of becoming emotionally "flooded" as they say, because it simply doesn't happen to me. But now I do and I have a lot more patience with is, plus it is less of an issue.

My husband tends to keep things bottled in and lets them fester. When he is being hurtful, it is not a temper flare up. He is calm and intends for it to hurt. In those moments, he does not care about the pain that he causes. When the moment passes, he disassociates himself from what he said because in his mind, he's not that kind of a person. He neither apologizes nor eats himself alive over what he said or did. I think this goes along with being incredibly stubborn, which he is.

I don't mean to be presumptuous at all, but have you ever wondered if he has some kind of mental thing going on? I know you mentioned the low testosterone issue and even that he may be crazy, but I don't know how serious you were in a clinical sense. I don't know much about the area, but things like disassociating himself don't really sound normal.

I understand the frustration too of his refusal to receive proper medical treatment. My wife was actually diagnosed with something as a teenager, I can't remember what exactly right at this moment, maybe manic depression. She admits she could have a mood disorder and they run in her family. But, of course, she will not try to find out for sure or get help because it can't go on the military record. I am all for avoiding meds if you can and she has seemed to manage fairly well at this point if she does have something, but I have a fundamental problem with the way that military members are pushed to refuse seeing a doctor for fear of their careers.

[Olya]

This sounds more like my wife.

Well, then if there is a future for you two, here's my advice to you:

1. Always remember that she cannot change - she has been set this way since she was about 3 years old. She can make great strides at keeping a lid on her temper. Appreciate those strides. However, realize that there will come a time when she will blow her gasket. Don't accuse her of being disingenuous about her changes or blame her for going back on those changes. Neither of those things will be true.

2. Affection works best. The uglier and fierier she is, the more she needs it. (Obviously, she has to agree to work on the relationship before you can offer it.) I promise you, when outbursts happen, she's having an out-of-body experience where she watches a stranger standing in her skin and yelling at her husband. A hug, an "I love you," a "hush, it's okay" goes a long way to end that. Also, you'll be the hero.

I don't mean to be presumptuous at all, but have you ever wondered if he has some kind of mental thing going on? I know you mentioned the low testosterone issue and even that he may be crazy, but I don't know how serious you were in a clinical sense. I don't know much about the area, but things like disassociating himself don't really sound normal.

Crazy is just a word we throw out, and it can have many negative connotations... But yes, of course I have. Depression, midlife crisis, fear of abandonment. Sometimes he reminds me of a hunted animal. He just gets that look in his eyes.

You know what precipitated this latest desire to get a divorce? Really the same thing that precipitated the last one exactly 1 year ago: I told him I was feeling unhappy and neglected because I barely hear from him when I'm not at home during the week.

Suddenly, he is deeply unhappy living with me, he doesn't really love me, I have an idea of an ideal husband in my head that he cannot live up to, and I only drive home to get a "reprieve" from school (translation: not to see him specifically).

That's right! He'd rather divorce me than text me about how his day went!

When I get some time, I'm actually going to run down the midlife crisis list and check off everything that applies. It's so sad that it's almost funny.

I understand the frustration too of his refusal to receive proper medical treatment. My wife was actually diagnosed with something as a teenager, I can't remember what exactly right at this moment, maybe manic depression. She admits she could have a mood disorder and they run in her family. But, of course, she will not try to find out for sure or get help because it can't go on the military record. I am all for avoiding meds if you can and she has seemed to manage fairly well at this point if she does have something, but I have a fundamental problem with the way that military members are pushed to refuse seeing a doctor for fear of their careers.

Same. There is nothing that he can do. If he goes to counseling on post, it's not confidential. If he gets antidepressants or testosterone boosters, or both, he will be undeployable. I have offered to pay for off-post counseling the minute I start working. However, medications would still be out of the question because they would show up on a urine test. It is a system that encourages people to get more and more dysfunctional.

Sometimes, I think that my greatest sin against him is knowing him the way he was before all this happened. I can tell that he is never genuinely happy. He can't lie to me about it. That's why he prefers the company of people who either don't know him well enough to tell or don't care. I suspect that this is also why he avoids his mother.

[44tries]

Well, then if there is a future for you two, here's my advice to you:

1. Always remember that she cannot change - she has been set this way since she was about 3 years old. She can make great strides at keeping a lid on her temper. Appreciate those strides. However, realize that there will come a time when she will blow her gasket. Don't accuse her of being disingenuous about her changes or blame her for going back on those changes. Neither of those things will be true.

2. Affection works best. The uglier and fierier she is, the more she needs it. (Obviously, she has to agree to work on the relationship before you can offer it.) I promise you, when outbursts happen, she's having an out-of-body experience where she watches a stranger standing in her skin and yelling at her husband. A hug, an "I love you," a "hush, it's okay" goes a long way to end that. Also, you'll be the hero.

I really appreciate this. Sometimes I wish she came with a manual! I absolutely appreciate the strides she has made and she really has come a long way. The problem is, sometimes she isn't open to affection, which is very frustrating for me. A symptom of our problems I think, and her lack of "feelings". If she ever does think I'm a hero, she's reluctant to say it. That would make her a vulnerable damsel in distress.

That's right! He'd rather divorce me than text me about how his day went!

This definitely sounds like an MLC/maturity problem. Back to childish ways. It sounds like he is shutting everyone out and just allowing himself to spiral. I'm certainly no expert on MLC's, but unfortunately I think the only person that can save him is himself...probably after hitting rock bottom.

[Olya]

I really appreciate this. Sometimes I wish she came with a manual! I absolutely appreciate the strides she has made and she really has come a long way. The problem is, sometimes she isn't open to affection, which is very frustrating for me. A symptom of our problems I think, and her lack of "feelings". If she ever does think I'm a hero, she's reluctant to say it. That would make her a vulnerable damsel in distress.

Don't we all!

I'm going to be honest with you - that is a problem. She'll probably have to work on it at some point in her life, but that's a decision that she has to make on her own. I would not broach the subject in the near future.

All you can do is change the way you act. It's going to be a touch-and-go. I'm not going to pretend that it's easy. I'm married to someone who used to be extremely affectionate. Now he's not and claims that he never was. He is completely alone in that opinion, but what does his family know? what do I know?

My big mistake was pressuring him to go to therapy. I come with a very deeply ingrained "fix it" mentality. I should have just let him be and let him hurt. He's still hurting - the couple of group sessions he went to during his lunch breaks did not help, nor could they. The only difference is that now he's back to wanting a divorce.

This definitely sounds like an MLC/maturity problem. Back to childish ways. It sounds like he is shutting everyone out and just allowing himself to spiral. I'm certainly no expert on MLC's, but unfortunately I think the only person that can save him is himself...probably after hitting rock bottom.

I suspect that you are right. I just have a hard time doing it. He'll be gone to Kuwait for 10 months. I'm worried that he'll hit that rock bottom while overseas, and he will be all alone.

He seems to do better when he has me to be angry at. The last I saw him, Sunday, he snapped "what" at me quite angrily and quite annoyed the minute I came up to him and said "hey." Why was I talking to him to begin with? Because I needed him to move his car so that I could leave the driveway. Was a begrudged "fine" an appropriate response? No, but that was what I got. He talks this way only with me and with his family. It's a teenage rebellion at 30.

[44tries]

I'm going to be honest with you - that is a problem. She'll probably have to work on it at some point in her life, but that's a decision that she has to make on her own. I would not broach the subject in the near future.

100%. I have always been aware it's a problem, and it didn't take me long to know that it was a personal one that I couldn't do anything to fix. This is an issue that can be addressed way down the road, when and if we ever get back to some semblance of a stable, healthy relationship.

My big mistake was pressuring him to go to therapy. I come with a very deeply ingrained "fix it" mentality. I should have just let him be and let him hurt. He's still hurting - the couple of group sessions he went to during his lunch breaks did not help, nor could they. The only difference is that now he's back to wanting a divorce.

I feel you on this one. I approach every problem I face with the mentality that it can be solved, no question. Keep coming from different angles, find new resources, just never give up. My tenacity can be exhausting and I know that. Pressuring my wife has been one of my biggest problems. Somehow, I am always putting pressure on her in one way or another. I know this needs to be changed if we have any hope, but as I wrote in my recent update I don't know if she will ever let go of the thought that I am an overbearing presence.

It can be frustrating to "let him hurt" and not be taking active steps toward a solution, worrying that time will just pass and he will be in a worse place like now where he's wanting a divorce. It's a helpless feeling.

I suspect that you are right. I just have a hard time doing it. He'll be gone to Kuwait for 10 months. I'm worried that he'll hit that rock bottom while overseas, and he will be all alone.

This is so, so hard. Fix it mentalities and savior complexes are such compulsive drives. We want to help and feel like we're doing the right thing. But we're trying to do a job that isn't ours or extends beyond our job description. Knowing a military member is in a place alone just makes it that much harder.

He seems to do better when he has me to be angry at. The last I saw him, Sunday, he snapped "what" at me quite angrily and quite annoyed the minute I came up to him and said "hey." Why was I talking to him to begin with? Because I needed him to move his car so that I could leave the driveway. Was a begrudged "fine" an appropriate response? No, but that was what I got. He talks this way only with me and with his family. It's a teenage rebellion at 30.

Yikes. It can be hard when you are the only "safe" outlet. They bottle everything up and act normal and cheery to friends and co-workers and then come home and let it all out on you. I've been there. It's a fine line between allowing yourself to be treated a certain way and also wanting to help and knowing that they do need an outlet of some kind. He needs to realize that he does this and work on growing and managing his internal issues better. Again, a problem only he can recognize and solve.