No affair, no feelings...is there hope?

[44tries]

Hmm maybe you are right, should I just have let her move to guest room? She offered but I said why not rotate. Ugh, I can see now how that is probably holding too tight. Fact is, I'm more comfortable with not having her move to a separate room permanently, the physical bed comfort isn't a big deal. But I can see now how this is my anxiety talking and needs to be eliminated.

[44tries]

O as for reading DR, I have ordered it and am chomping at the bit. I want to start implementing it now but will probably be a bit before it gets to me across the globe. I will just use what I can find here until then.

[MoveFrwd]

As I replied to Olya, I am going to let her be the one to figure out how we will move everything and when. Do you think this is a mistake? But I certainly am not in a rush to push for it and I sort of view the fact that she didn't come in and say here are some boxes, get packing, as a win. We have about ten months left at this location, don't know where we (I guess she) is going next, but if I am not on her orders maybe the military will ship my stuff/car home. I don't know how all this works and partly why it is up to her to find out. I am hoping that continuing living together and having this time if we get that far is a positive.

I didnt say to start packing. I said to figure out what you want on your end. You talk about the mess of logistics holding her to you. How is that a good thing? You even say it is only building resentment. If it were me, I would figure out what YOU would want to do if she decides to proceed. I dont think that would be up to her anyway.

The problem is that I am pretty isolated here and don't have the luxury of going out with my friends or a lot of the community resources I would normally have. Guess it's time to make some new local friends at the dog park and try to improve my language skills to communicate (something I have been doing anyway).

You talk about missing her companionship. That isnt going to change if you just sit around. Also, we tend to value what other people value. The goals in GAL are to prove to yourself your own worth - this will help show to her that you are worthy of value and something she may not want to just toss away. So, YES, start brushing up on those community resources.

Right again, I don't think the crisis ended. I did at one point, or rather just ignored it because I thought the storm had passed. Big mistake I won't make again. If she decides to not be completely done, we will have to do a lot of intentional work on rebuilding our connection and trying to reignite the feelings that are missing. As for the changes I made, they were genuine and I truly believe I am permanently changed in the ways I tried to and that any future relationship with her or someone else will benefit. I focused mostly on 1. giving her more space and not being overbearing as she has mentioned feeling suffocated often. Obviously I will continue to work on it as she said it again this week but she has said it way less often and I know my behavior is far less suffocating than it used to be. 2. I no longer try to control and have my way or talk and talk trying to convince her of my views. Before, I was easily threatened or felt anxious and could become manipulative without even realizing it. I reflected a lot on this and am much more calm and accepting, going with the flow (ironic because I'm actually pretty easy going in general, just not as much in he relationship), and valuing her opinions and wants a lot more. Allowing her to drive, so to speak. Those things I have improved and not regressed. Unfortunately, the things that I will focus on this time around (if I get the chance, or for future relationships) are probably more important, especially for the connection issue. I need to be much more aware of building her up, making her feel good about herself, that sort of thing. She is the type that would never ever ask for compliments and acts like she doesn't care or need anything like that, but I have learned over time it is all a facade. She is actually very needy (not in a bad way, lack of a better word) in this way. I am relatively insensitive and don't need much in the way of an ego-boost so it is not always first nature to make sure I mention positive things and actively try to make someone feel good. I think this has been very hurtful for her and I deeply regret not realizing it sooner. Secondly, I can be selfish in the small things and she notices. I am good at grand gestures and giving gifts, but when it comes to true selflessness, I have realized I am very poor in this area. If I open a cookie package and no one's looking I would probably take the best one for myself. I do not want to be this way anymore especially with my wife. It hurts so much to think that I may not have truly put her first and made her feel she is my top priority in the little ways (heck, there probably was a time when I thought she was my highest priority but she really wasn't because I was immature and dumb and didn't know how to be in a real adult relationship). These are ways I have grown as a person and will continue to strive to grow.

This all feels very framed around her. So to me, it's hard for these to be genuine and lasting.

How can you frame these so that they are about you?

For example, you talk about how you need to be better at "building her up". But really it's about recognizing achievement or providing encouragement. It isnt about how you interact with HER, specifically, but rather, what values you hold to be important to you. Thinking this way, what changes have you made? How are they keeping? What more do you want to do?

As for talking about the relationship, I agree, but what if she doesn't bring it up? Last time, she just sort of slid back into it without explicitly saying she was ready to try again. I guess I should have stopped and said hey what's going on, but I was afraid to rock the boat.

Well, what are YOUR boundaries? Why did you allow her to just 'slide back in'? Why is she the only one that gets a say in the relationship? But no...I wouldnt bring it up until you see something change in the status quo.

[Olya]

I'm with everyone else! Why in God's name are you alternating beds with her!? If she is not comfortable sleeping with you, then she needs to make her own arrangements, and that includes moving her clothes and dresser to another room, if she feels she must. By herself. You can love her and care for her without condoning or participating in her efforts to end your marriage. Do not throw yourself across the bedroom threshold to keep her from moving to the guest room permanently, but do give her the opportunity to learn what life alone will be like. This means that she will be leaving a place where she feels at home and she will be doing it all on her own. Your bedroom is like a small preview of that.

Now, you DO NOT say any of this to her. This is for you to keep in mind.

What you do tell her is that the other bed is hurting your back and that you are no longer willing to keep alternating. You want your bedroom back and you fully understand if she is not comfortable staying there with you.

[44tries]

I didnt say to start packing. I said to figure out what you want on your end. You talk about the mess of logistics holding her to you. How is that a good thing? You even say it is only building resentment. If it were me, I would figure out what YOU would want to do if she decides to proceed. I dont think that would be up to her anyway.

This is a good point and one that I will have to think over and make sure I separate what I want and what I need.

How can you frame these so that they are about you?

For example, you talk about how you need to be better at "building her up". But really it's about recognizing achievement or providing encouragement. It isnt about how you interact with HER, specifically, but rather, what values you hold to be important to you. Thinking this way, what changes have you made? How are they keeping? What more do you want to do?

This is really good insight and helps me see how much she is at the center of my thinking. I guess I figured those translations from specific to her to general would be a given, but I should be thinking about the general form from the get-go. If I make changes for her, they aren't real changes. But should I discount the motivation to be better for someone else? This is a hard balance for me. If I hadn't been in this relationship at all, I could have easily coasted on and not ever been pushed to think introspectively and improve myself at all. Obviously, this a problem and probably exaggerated but I definitely don't think I would have come as far. To your question (and I assume you are asking about reframing my changes I have made relating to the relationship as opposed to general changes in myself that are unrelated), I have learned to have better control over my own anxieties, not letting them cause me to make impulsive decisions. I think this is something that has translated into all areas of my life and has held up. It is really a matter of maturity and inner zen if you will and part of it has come with age. As for future changes, the selfish mindset is my biggest concern. I do not want to be that type of person and I want to be more caring and put others first.

Well, what are YOUR boundaries? Why did you allow her to just 'slide back in'? Why is she the only one that gets a say in the relationship? But no...I wouldnt bring it up until you see something change in the status quo.

So this is a major problem for me. If I'm being honest, and you probably already know this by now, I am way too accommodating. I consistently find myself wondering why on earth I am the one who has no real control in relationships, which probably has correlation with my struggle with being "controlling". I still haven't quite worked it out, but it is not something I enjoy and for once I'd like to be the one who can say and do what I want without worrying about the effects or what the other person thinks or will react etc (not in a reckless way). I find myself always being the first to apologize in a fight even when I am the one who was wronged in the first place. I just want the fight over! In fact, this is probably a root cause of an inability to have a truly healthy relationship because it is never balanced. I'm just not sure how to fix it yet.

Olya, thank you for reinforcing that it is ridiculous I should be accommodating her in the bed situation. She asked me tonight where I wanted to sleep and I said the bed, she said okay. She has never wanted to fight me on it, I just stupidly gave it to her for free. I won't give it up again.

So, now I am not sure if I screwed up or not. Tonight when she came home from work neither of us had eaten and we decided to go pick something up (very normal, before). We ate dinner together and watched TV. Obviously, it was great to have the company, but should I be avoiding this?? I didn't push for it or anything of the sort. It was natural and we actually had a very pleasant time and laughed a lot. I don't know how to navigate spending time together vs keeping distant. I want her to feel the effects of missing me and not get to have her cake and eat it too. But obviously we can't have any hope of reconcile if we never have any contact. Should the first real contact not be until she wants to initiate a relationship talk? I don't have the book yet and the only thing I know for sure is the not reaching out or pressuring, and focusing on myself. From my research last year (before I knew about DB specifically) a lot of what I read and held on to was that I should be hoping for an internal struggle where she is unsure if she really wants to be done, and hopefully decides maybe there is hope for growth and change and it is worth giving it another shot. This probably depends on how deep her resolve is, which I have no way of knowing.

One last note, she has suddenly started smoking again which is something that has always been a very hot topic of contention. Originally, I told her that I did not want to get married until she quit. She agreed and this mostly happened, but she would still bum them sometimes often, sometimes infrequently depending who she hung around. She has never been a heavy smoker and goes through phases. Claimed she wanted to quit, I supported her, but somehow half the time we were arguing about it because she wouldn't fully commit and it became an issue of me controlling her. Now it seems like a clear act of independence/rebellion now that she is "free".

[44tries]

I really appreciate your posts and questions, Amoafwl, because they are really pushing me to think deeply and I'll admit some of them sort of stopped me in my tracks for a bit and I didn't immediately have answers. I like this push out of my comfort zone.

I've been honing in on one of many of issues, and I haven't been able to shake the feeling that this one cannot be ignored. You asked what are my boundaries, which I touched on in the last post, but after thinking about it more, I'm not sure that I really even have boundaries. This is rather embarrassing to admit, both to myself and now to a world of strangers. I have become so accustomed to ignoring the need to establish boundaries for myself because I subconsciously think it will be better for establishing connection, closeness, etc. Perhaps contributing to preventing this very thing. I am paralyzed to really set a line for myself and I need to get over this hump.

[44tries]

Another Update: I am still sort of flying by the seat of my pants here, trying to follow the rules, eliminate anxiety, and stay focused on myself over her.

Today, she texted me while she is at work and asked me "So have you had anymore thoughts about everything? You said you took a reflection day the other day." I was a little caught off guard by this and admittedly panicked a little.

Did my best to stay calm and be honest while not saying the "wrong thing". At first my answer was fairly brief because I tend be an over-sharer and I figured as long as it wasn't cold or TOO short, it was better than "Uh yes, I'm devastated and am begging you to reconsider etc". She pressed further saying she is just wondering my thoughts and if I could elaborate. Darn, no easy way out. Part of me wondered if this could be an opportunity but alas if it was I didn't know exactly how to seize it.

So, I went with this: "I will try to let you in a bit more. It matters to me deeply how unhappy you have been and I'm glad you decided to say something, even if it isn't easy to hear. I wish we had tried more active things like creating space and sleeping separately before it built up to an explosion (note: this was her word choice when she gave me "the talk"), but I'm glad we're doing it now even if it doesn't change anything. As for me personally, obviously the future is much less clear but I am at peace with that and working to prepare myself both logistically and mentally/emotionally."

How badly did I screw up?! What SHOULD I have said?

Her response: "I want to say how sorry I am for all of it."

Me: "I know that you have no bad intentions and you haven't been unfaithful or anything other than a supportive wife and I appreciate that."

She hasn't responded since.

[MoveFrwd]

I didnt say to start packing. I said to figure out what you want on your end. You talk about the mess of logistics holding her to you. How is that a good thing? You even say it is only building resentment. If it were me, I would figure out what YOU would want to do if she decides to proceed. I dont think that would be up to her anyway.

This is a good point and one that I will have to think over and make sure I separate what I want and what I need.

You initially said this:
all my plans for career (I am currently in a masters program) have to be changed to get a job quickly and support myself and we would have to figure out how to pay for my stuff to be moved including my car etc

To me, this is something you need to figure out. Not her. She isnt responsible for your choices for your masters program and job and so on if you do wind up splitting. As Cadet says, Knowledge is Power. Sometimes just knowing what your options are can help you to not be so paralyzed. Taking ownership of your self can be a powerful step to help you break free of your fears of the 'what-ifs'.

As for future changes, the selfish mindset is my biggest concern. I do not want to be that type of person and I want to be more caring and put others first.

One of the biggest takeaways that I got from DR was how important it is to recognize these areas of growth and then to also lay out a plan for actually achieving them. So what quantifiable actions can you take to progress towards this goal? How will you exhibit these traits?

So this is a major problem for me. If I'm being honest, and you probably already know this by now, I am way too accommodating. I consistently find myself wondering why on earth I am the one who has no real control in relationships, which probably has correlation with my struggle with being "controlling". I still haven't quite worked it out, but it is not something I enjoy and for once I'd like to be the one who can say and do what I want without worrying about the effects or what the other person thinks or will react etc (not in a reckless way). I find myself always being the first to apologize in a fight even when I am the one who was wronged in the first place. I just want the fight over! In fact, this is probably a root cause of an inability to have a truly healthy relationship because it is never balanced. I'm just not sure how to fix it yet.

I think youre on the right path. I get being committed to this relationship even in the face of the actions and words from your W. There is no shame in that. My concern is that if you let her get everything she wants for forever, then she has no reason to change the status quo. The bed is kind of a microcosm - here you are, devoted to your marriage 100%, but she wants to separatae and so you move to the guest room sometimes to....help her feel better? Im not sure exactly.

Im not saying that you should be a jerk to her or punish for her thoughts. And Im not saying you should go run out and look for other women or anything like that. Im saying that it isnt your job to cater to her every whim right now. She fired you from that job. You talk about being unselfish, but really, I kinda think now is the time where you SHOULD be a little bit selfish. She is giving you the gift of time to go out and become the person you want to become. Take advantage of it!

My other point above was that you act and come across like you are committed to the marriage 100%. I commend you for that. It's OK to give off that persona here. But think about what that says to W that you are OK with her doing whatever it is she wants and youll always be there as a safety net. How does that attitude lead to her valuing you or your relationship? Now is a good time to understand what qualities you value in a relationship and what you want out of a partner. What is your recourse if she cant meet those expectations?

She asked me tonight where I wanted to sleep and I said the bed, she said okay. She has never wanted to fight me on it, I just stupidly gave it to her for free. I won't give it up again.

You dont need to lie and say the other place is uncomfortable or anything like that. You dont really need to give an explanation. She is free to sleep where she wants.

So, now I am not sure if I screwed up or not. Tonight when she came home from work neither of us had eaten and we decided to go pick something up (very normal, before). We ate dinner together and watched TV. Obviously, it was great to have the company, but should I be avoiding this??

Its not a big deal if she initiates it. But I would say that if you are home every night when she comes in waiting to see if she wants to do something with you....thats not good. GAL is so so so so so so important. I dont think anyone here can stress that enough to you. You need to start making your own plans - even if it's just to go to the coffee house down the street for a few hours to read or people watch. Get out of the house and start doing something. Anything. Go to a dance class, a game night, a language class, parasailing, scuba diving, doesnt really matter.

I didn't push for it or anything of the sort. It was natural and we actually had a very pleasant time and laughed a lot. I don't know how to navigate spending time together vs keeping distant. I want her to feel the effects of missing me and not get to have her cake and eat it too. But obviously we can't have any hope of reconcile if we never have any contact. Should the first real contact not be until she wants to initiate a relationship talk? I don't have the book yet and the only thing I know for sure is the not reaching out or pressuring, and focusing on myself. From my research last year (before I knew about DB specifically) a lot of what I read and held on to was that I should be hoping for an internal struggle where she is unsure if she really wants to be done, and hopefully decides maybe there is hope for growth and change and it is worth giving it another shot. This probably depends on how deep her resolve is, which I have no way of knowing.

This feels like a lot of overanalyzing and going around in circles. In my opinion, it's very hard to 'nice them back'. Its also impossible to talk your way out of a situation that your actions got you into. With that, if you focus on your own self improvement and GAL your heart out, thats the best path towards success.

Claimed she wanted to quit, I supported her, but somehow half the time we were arguing about it because she wouldn't fully commit and it became an issue of me controlling her. Now it seems like a clear act of independence/rebellion now that she is "free".

Who knows? It culd be that shes sad or scared or nervous or whatever else. I would say just note it for now.

As for your other comments above...can you see a difference between "Im not willing to be around a smoker" and "You need to stop smoking if you want to be in this relationship"? I feel like the first removes any need for an argument and is about your boundary while the second is controlling to her. Think about that distinction as you move forward in this process.

[MoveFrwd]

How badly did I screw up?! What SHOULD I have said?

A couple things Id recommend.

1) None of these things are urgent. If you need a few minutes or hours to think about your response, it's OK. If you need to post here first, then do it.

2) I would try to give 70% or so of what she says. Going on for paragraphs isnt particularly meaningful. Talking about your regrets or path forward with HER isnt particularly useful. Here's a phrase that my DB coach gave me that I think is wonderfully succinct and gets across everything you wanted to say very efficiently.

I do not believe that divorce (or separation) is the answer to our problems, but I love and respect you enough to move forward if thats what you choose.
[Its been a couple years, so I may have a couple of the words wrong :)]

But I think that should be your focus. Listen to HER. Dont talk at her.

[Olya]

I don't know how to navigate spending time together vs keeping distant.

So, this is actually pretty easy. Let's use your living room couch as an example.

Scenario 1: Wife comes in. You're on the couch watching TV/Playing video games.

Do NOT get up and leave. Five-year-olds do that.
Do NOT invite her to spend time with you.
Do NOT attempt small talk.

Do say "hi" if this is the first time you see her since she came home, but do NOT ask her about her day.

Do NOT object to her sitting down in the same room with you.

Do NOT offer to change the TV to something else for her - you were there first. If she asks you to, say that you are almost done, finish what you are watching, give her the remote, and go do something else in another room. Do this with utmost serenity.

If she sits down, wherever that may be, do not make a big deal of it and do NOT EVER thank her for spending time with you or let her know that it means something to you. You are a person, not a puppy.


Scenario 2: Wife is on the couch watching TV. You come into the room. She does not acknowledge you or barely acknowledge you.

Follow all the conversation rules from Scenario 1 and proceed to another room to do something else. After all, you have a Master's degree to work on, right?


Scenario 3: Wife is on the couch watching TV. You come into the room. She offers/asks that you watch TV with her.

If this is the program you both like to watch, say something like "sure" and sit down to watch it, but not next to her.

If this is something that you have never been interested in, tell her "Thanks, but I have no interest in this. If you're going to watch [insert show here], let me know." Proceed to another room, oh reasonable one with good manners.

If you have already made plans for the evening, no matter what she's watching, thank her, let her know that you already have plans and proceed with your plans. One of the consequences of her decision is that you no longer have to bend over backwards to do things for her. She needs to know that, not through words, but through your actions.


This will apply equally nicely to any scenario. Really.

One last note, she has suddenly started smoking again which is something that has always been a very hot topic of contention.

Cool.

Ignore it.

Not your lungs. Not your problem. Don't even bring it up UNLESS she is smoking in the house. In that case, let her know that you are concerned about your own health and she needs to take it outside. Beyond that, you don't care. Heck, ask her if she wants you to pick her up some cigarettes when you go to the store.



You do, however, need to get a life. I know that it's hard where you're at. Believe me, I know. But you have options.

1. People world over speak English. I promise you, if you attempt to go out and socialize, you will find English speakers.

2. People in non-English speaking countries like to hire English speakers to teach. You are an educated man. See if you can find a job teaching English.

3. Go to the FRG and ask them about some language classes that you can take. I'm sure there's something. As a bonus, you will meet new people at these classes. Note: NEVER tell ANYONE at the FRG about your family problems. NEVER EVER EVER EVER tell them a word more than they absolutely need to know. If you do, the whole post will know about it. And half the bases stateside. People at the FRG are a casual resource, NOT your friends.

4. You're in a new country. EXPLORE! Take a drive. Take a stroll. Download meetups app (at this point, its creators should start reimbursing me for all the free advertising) and see what's happening - you will have the added bonus of being able to locate English speakers.


The longer you sit alone in this house, the worse it will be for you. Cabin fever is a thing and your wife cannot be your only window to the outside world.