WW in MLC affair and I need advice..

[Natash]

[quote]I said well nothing seems to be changing so over the next month we will just be further apart

Keep me straight here. Why the timeframe of a month. Were you referring to her moving out in a month? How did she respond when you made that statement?

Yes, I was referring to her leaving around the end of April. When I said that to her, she calmly said "I can now if you want but it will be much harder" (her dad works shift work and is currently living there and won't be to camp until the end of the month). Then the kids came around, she felt the conversation was starting to loop back in a circle any ways so we went on with our separate tasks. At times I wish she would go sooner but I know the inlaws would get told I kicked her out during this difficult time and I added more stress and shows how I'm still selfish not caring about her health and stress,etc etc. I would be the bad person so I told myself I can ride it out another month. On the opposite view, I wonder if the time she is how many improvements she's seen. I have never asked her but she made the comment about me staying home with the girls two days in a row last week in snow days when I didn't need to (i work for my family's small business and she has in the past stayed home on snow days because she gets 4 times more paid leave than I do. I only have 5 personal days). I told her yes, I have made some changes and my old self is gone. (I am now putting my family first before work as opposed to before they got equal attention).

[sandi2]

Get use to being the bad guy. Every WW makes the H the bad guy. That's how she justifies breaking up her marriage. You know the truth, and others will believe whatever. It doesn't mean you have to prove to everyone she is wrong.

One of the things I've noticed about H's who have the NGS, is that in his need to control things, he will often want someone else to do the hard work. He may tell his W's parents or her closest friends, in hopes they will talk sense into her and get her to stay. I have even seen some H's inform the OM's W about the A, in hopes that she will have the guts to do what he doesn't. If he can't accomplish something by discussing it......then he wants someone else to use tougher love, while he can sit quietly by......being the nice guy.

On the opposite view, I wonder if the time she is how many improvements she's seen.

Look, you should not try to get "good enough" for her. That is not the point of improving yourself. Besides, when you point out to her how you've been working on yourself.......it reinforces her false reasoning for leaving you in the first place. If anyone should work to get "good enough" for their spouse, it should be the wayward W! Don't you see, by telling her how you are trying to change.....it makes her feel entitled to treat you badly. She sees it as your admission. I realize that is hard to logically understand about someone you love. She has a different mindset now. This is not the girl you married. And, you sure don't want to give her the idea you are trying to win her back......and especially not trying to get good enough that she'll take you back. That is not the correct approach. You improve yourself, b/c you want to become a better man.......for yourself. If she gets smart, she'll stay and reap the benefits of you being a stronger male in the MR. Currently, she is not using any wisdom. Okay, so stop playing up to her, and get busy learning what you need to do.

Not to discourage you, but to show you what I mean........many H's before you, have tried to fix his W's old complaints. Then, he would be so pleased at all his hard work, only to hear her say that it didn't change her feelings. He may have removed some excuses she'd used against him....(legit or not), but it didn't make her feel anymore attracted to him as a man. I mean, you could treat her like a queen, but it would not effect her attraction for you as a man/husband. Do you follow what I'm saying?

Sometimes it's not as much in how good you treat her....but in how you allow her to treat you so badly. If she can show disrespect for H, without facing any consequences......I promise you, it kills her attraction. Sitting her down and explaining how it hurts you when she shows disrespects......was, maybe, good for the first offense. After that, no more talks will accomplish better behavior, or get her respect. She has to see what the man is going to do about it.

Every woman will eventually test her H in some way. It's usually when she's feeling resentful and she'll make some snide remark, some facial or body language that expresses how put out she feels with him. If he lets it go, then she'll not think of what a great guy she has.......but she'll think he's not much of a man to let her away with it, and next time she'll say or do a little more that shows she's losing respect for him. By the time she's in an A, she's been disrespecting him in little ways for a long time. Maybe he wouldn't admit it to himself, or he thought he was taking the higher ground to be the bigger person......but nevertheless, she lost respect every time she belittled him, made fun at his expense, showed anger at him in front of the kids, etc, etc.

Anyway, let me make something clear. The WW does not leave the M as some type of warning bell that her H had better shape up or lose her. He has already lost her! She's done with him. If he finds his manhood, there's a chance they could get together. But he if he wants her heart......then, he cannot act like her little dog who is learning tricks to please her, but rather, he becomes a man who doesn't take her sh't treatment......nor the load of cr@p she tries to feed him.

Don't get me wrong. Women want to be respected and loved. They want a good man. But a man with NGS is confused about how he shows his love. Please study the NGS and note the thought areas you need to change. Until you focus on that part, all this other stuff is useless in saving your MR. The first thing most nice guy H's want to do whenever they learn the WW is in an A, is to prove how much he loves her. No, that's not the time to prove his love.......and besides, she doesn't want it. So, he's just setting himself up for failure. I'm not saying he has to stop loving her. He can love her from a distance. When his W is wayward, he has to apply a tougher side of love. At least, it's tough for the nice guy. Don't let her think you are trying to win her back.

I think I know what you mean about the anger and aggression, when you try to stand up and face her like a man. You have trouble venting the built up anger, and you try to work up the courage or know-how to approach her in a manly way. Trying to bluff self confidence can come across as angry aggression, and the entire experience feels unnatural. You will probably have to start small and work up toward the larger issues.

I encourage you to work on self confidence. Read self help material. Practice on small, less personal, or not as emotional issues. You have to believe in yourself as a man.

I hope you will read about how to have/show male dominance in a MR, b/c this is very important for a man with NGS to grasp. Women are naturally attracted to a man she feels is sexually dominant. However, if you don't fully understand what that means.......then you'll just look like a jerk.

Currently, she doesn't want you, except maybe, as a friend. It will not draw her attraction, b/c she'll see you like her gay friend.......and the relationship with her will never get beyond that point. You can't nice her back, and unfortunately, I don't know if you are convinced of it, yet.

So anyway......keep reading and learning. ((hugs))

[Natash]

Thank you very much for the thoughtful response Sandi! I have been looking forward to get insight from you like this since I first started reading the boards. I was in awe how well you seemed to be able to grasp our situations and then be able to give guidance.

"One of the things I've noticed about H's who have the NGS, is that in his need to control things, he will often want someone else to do the hard work. He may tell his W's parents or her closest friends, in hopes they will talk sense into her and get her to stay."

Dont get me wrong, I love to work and often enjoy hard work but Im guilty. I did both, shared our sitch with my MIL and my W BF hoping they could give her some guidance along the way. I am now regretting both of those choices I made. At the time, I figured Id be upfront and honest and who knew if Id have the chance to ever give my side of the story? Now I feel both parties are listening to my W and they are making me out to be the bad guy. I am not, some with see that, some will not.

Thank you for reenforcing why the changes are personal and private. I never viewed it that way but now completely see how if I admit that a change is needed, W will say "see what I mean?" and justify in her mind that she was right in her choice(s).

"It's usually when she's feeling resentful and she'll make some snide remark, some facial or body language that expresses how put out she feels with him. If he lets it go, then she'll not think of what a great guy she has.......but she'll think he's not much of a man to let her away with it, and next time she'll say or do a little more that shows she's losing respect for him. By the time she's in an A, she's been disrespecting him in little ways for a long time."

I have been part of this for several years. My wife has always had a sharp tounge and it is even sharper when she is upset. I've typically brushed it off and told myself it is who she is. Little did I know, I should have handled this differently. I only stood up at times when I felt strongly against a comment or action knowing it would cause a fight and I don't like confrontation. It got to the point last year I remember looking at my wife and thinking "why have you lost respect for me when I have done so much for us and we are very fortunate to be this successful in life." I no longer allow her to get away with any snide remarks, eye rolls etc...I am calling her out on each of these and did a few times this weekend.

"But a man with NGS is confused about how he shows his love. Please study the NGS and note the thought areas you need to change. Until you focus on that part, all this other stuff is useless in saving your MR. The first thing most nice guy H's want to do whenever they learn the WW is in an A, is to prove how much he loves her."

That was me until I found the board, I went into super husband mode and showed my wife what I could do around the house. Now I know how she viewed this desperate act. I read a lot about the NGS around here and it seems there are several active guys that share an almost identical experience with me and my sitch...do you have any recommendations, pointers, or places to obtain some info on the NGS? I need to correct this but want to make sure I am doing it in the right way. I have found a book I plan to purchase and read but I benefit more from active threads and reading others opinions and pointers/advice.

"Currently, she doesn't want you, except maybe, as a friend. It will not draw her attraction, b/c she'll see you like her gay friend.......and the relationship with her will never get beyond that point. You can't nice her back, and unfortunately, I don't know if you are convinced of it, yet."

Again, spot on. She has told me we did get a divorce, she still wants to be friends but that might be "in a fairytale world". I told her I dont know if that could be possible. Divorce and money can bring out the worst in people,friends would be easier said then done". I do realize that I cant nice her back now. Being too nice is part of the reason we are where we are now.

The problem I currently have is I feel stuck until the next phase happens. Im just starting to GAL. As the snow melts and weather improves, this will be easier as activities around increase. I did some reflecting today and I made two new goals. One-remain as calm as possible around the kids (no matter what the situation. Right now I am the only parent parenting in the house and correcting my girls so sometimes I raise my voice if they don't listen. I am stressed and then their misbehavoir adds to the stress but it is not their fault so I should not be passing it onto them but raising my voice) and two- always be kind and polite to the W, along with working on validating with her thoughts and feelings over the next weeks. I have sometimes been silent which might come off as being cold. I'll use today for instance, she had a nice new red shirt on and I thought "that shirt looks nice on you". I should have told her that but at the time I didnt because I keep telling myself "don't pursue her". Once I thought about it, that wouldn't be persuing her. I could say the same to a little old lady of a house guest right?

[AnotherStander]

At the time, I figured Id be upfront and honest and who knew if Id have the chance to ever give my side of the story? Now I feel both parties are listening to my W and they are making me out to be the bad guy.

So show them something different. A "nice guy" will try to argue and debate and convince everyone they are wrong and he is right. A man of honor and integrity will just smile and show everyone what he is really made of REGARDLESS of what they say about him. Nice guys base their actions on what others will say and think about them, they do everything for applause and a response. Honorable men base their actions on what their moral compass tells them is right.

That was me until I found the board, I went into super husband mode and showed my wife what I could do around the house. Now I know how she viewed this desperate act.

Probably, plus housework is just very beta. It's fine to have some beta qualities in a healthy relationship, but nice guys tend to go full-on beta after BD and it just makes them look even less attractive.

do you have any recommendations, pointers, or places to obtain some info on the NGS?

Read "No More Mister Nice Guy", it's where the term "NGS" originated.

Being too nice is part of the reason we are where we are now.

No no no, that's not it at all. The whole point of NGS is "nice guys" are NOT nice! They are controlling, manipulative, cunning, deceptive and quite mean in very passive/ aggressive ways. They look "nice" on the surface but underneath they are anything but nice. The title of the book doesn't mean "quit being a nice guy" it's more about addressing all of the above issues and turning guys with NGS into honorable men.

I'll use today for instance, she had a nice new red shirt on and I thought "that shirt looks nice on you". I should have told her that but at the time I didnt because I keep telling myself "don't pursue her". Once I thought about it, that wouldn't be persuing her.

Doesn't really hurt to pay her a compliment now and then, as long as you don't do it with any expectations. We talk about treating a WAS like a "friendly neighbor" so that can be your litmus test. If you would say it to a neighbor then in general it's OK to say it to your WAS.

[Natash]

No no no, that's not it at all. The whole point of NGS is "nice guys" are NOT nice! They are controlling, manipulative, cunning, deceptive and quite mean in very passive/ aggressive ways. They look "nice" on the surface but underneath they are anything but nice. The title of the book doesn't mean "quit being a nice guy" it's more about addressing all of the above issues and turning guys with NGS into honorable men.

Thank you for clarifying, you folks are helping me learn things about myself and my W that I never saw or understood. At times I do come across as controlling and my W will tell you this. I viewed them as expectations, part of being married...I never try to do it in a negative way. I think it came down to how I process things and events in life. I had a roadmap and goals set in my life that I was trying to achieve. I've always wanted a nice family, nice home, beautiful wife,etc. I had all of that and under appreciated it and at times handle things incorrectly. This entire situation and BD with the W blew all that up. I now realize that I can not control anyone but myself and am trying to improve myself wherever I can. Since you pointed this out, I have began reading Dr.Glover's "No more Mr. Nice Guy" and also downloaded some pod casts so I can learn which ways I relate to the MNG and eventually correct those flaws. Thank you AS for the response, I truly appreciate it.

On a different note, Id like to share a quote one of my best friends sent me the other day (he knows both the W and I and knows what we are going through). Other members here may enjoy it, I know I did.

"Don't let your loyalty become slavery. If they don't like what you bring to the table, let them eat alone."

[AnotherStander]

You are welcome, and believe me you are in good NGS company here, LOL! A shocking number of LBS's are "nice guys". All of the things I mentioned above, I was as guilty of them as anyone. And I know from personal experience that most of us are not doing it to be malicious or mean, we thought that we were doing the right thing. Our motivations were pure, but our methods were not. It's not hard to reform from NGS, because most nice guys are very intelligent and learn fast. So when you hold a mirror up to them and say "look at what you are doing and the impact it's having on others" then they don't like what they see and immediately work on fixing it. So good for you for reading up on this, I am confident you'll recover from it. It takes a while but it's a worthwhile journey.

[Natash]

Im in need of some advice. My W makes "plans" every other weekend. I knew this coming weekend would be one she wanted to "go out" and give me some song and dance story. Saturday I am planning to take my girls to two easter egg hunts as well as a gathering at my inlaws (I know it might be best to not go but I dont want to ruin Easter for my girls). Sunday, same thing, Easter with my parents so I wondered if my W would make plans for Friday. She has put in extra time at work this week and would be able to leave early and Id never know.

So, five minutes ago I get a text "Do you have plans for Friday". So far I have ignored it. How should I react to this text? Part of me says "nope, I'll be the babysitter while you go out and run wild" but I know that is not the correct response. I do want to be able to spend the time with my girls and if I tell my wife Yes I am doing A,B, or C or ignore it, she will make arrangements to have my MIL watch the girls.

[sandi2]

So, do you have plans for Friday, since you know your W makes plans every other weekend?

If you want the girls, then keep them. If you have plans.....great. But don't try to control what your W does. In other words, don't tell her you have plans, hoping it will keep her from going out........and don't keep the kids to get on her good side. Do what you really want to do, b/c she's going to whatever she wants, anyway.

[Natash]

No, no plans going out. Was planning to be home with the kids. I'll let her know and say "Have a good time."

[AnotherStander]

No, no plans going out. Was planning to be home with the kids. I'll let her know and say "Have a good time."

NO DON'T DO THAT. That is very passive/aggressive and exactly what someone with NGS would do. You have NO IDEA what she is thinking, maybe she's going out, or maybe she wants to spend time with the girls, or maybe she's just curious what your plans are. If your plans are to stay home with the kids then tell her that, nothing else. And get that book and read it!