WW's A ended, Now piecing(?) but slow, thread #12

[hoosjim]

Welcome to my 12th thread. My previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2777184#Post2777184

While my basic profile is contained in my signature block at the bottom, my "Sitch Synopsis" I posted at the beginning of each new thread was getting kinda long and unwieldy and maybe even confusing, so ima try to "thumbnail" it here from scratch. If you want more details you'll need to do a deep dive into my earlier threads. Here goes:


SSM for approximately last 10 years up to BD. Overlay of chronic illness (mine) and special needs children. W and I never had the level of communication we should have had, particularly about problems/issues, which we tended to each internalize. Lack of intimacy particularly problematic since W's primary love language is "physical touch" and also because she was "high sex drive" though conflicted having been brought up to be "good catholic girl" and "good oldest child". Chronic illness cured about 5 years ago and kids stabilized but damage done by then-- W and I weren't even really "friends" by that point.

W fell into "WW" mindset. Getting dolled up, going out a lot, staying out late, hanging out with her bff who was also a WW. In November 2016 she started an EA with a friend of mine who knew from me confiding in him about our MR sitch and about my W's vulnerabilities. He took advantage when she sought him out for advice and support. EA until 1/23/2017 when BD. W broke it off for 3 weeks but then reconnected and A became more serious though still, I am pretty sure, never a PA. I did not know at first, just that her demeanor, which had initially softened towards me, changed again. Eventually I discovered a "cheater phone" and, after a couple of starts and stops including a final "confrontation" where W broke down and admitted to me what she had been doing and I walked away, we started the process of trying to save the MR.

Currently we are both in MC and IC, and MC seems to be a good one: goal-oriented, understands the WW mindset and my W in particular, as well as the dangers and intricacies of affairs. She is also a sex-therapist and intimacy specialist, so that's good. We recently agreed to seek IC and has been doing so, and has been increasingly receptive to and proactive about "doing the work" as time has progressed. We are probably better "Friends" now than we have ever been, as well as a better "team" at parenting. The big hurdle is restoring intimacy and touch and romance, which has been a big struggle due to the length of neglect and awkwardness, but she has steadily, with ups and downs, warmed up to me. We are "dating" more now than ever, and are planning a tropical getaway (Cancun) for her 50th, about which she is excited, but... also fearful/anxious because she is weight conscious and worries she is now "fat."

[hoosjim]

Ginger, this is in response to your last post on my previous thread:

What I mean is, does she actually have any very close girlfriends who are her age? And not BFF? maybe she needs to open up a bit to a new circle of friends, a more positive circle.

Her very closest friends are bff and another girl who was a friend of mine in college (and is also an XW of a college frat brother and friend of mine, though that friend and I are no longer close, in part because of how badly he treated his XW, my own W's current friend.) She has some other fairly close friends her age but... they are not particularly "fun" and her two closest are-- guess what-- in somewhat strained/troubled marriages of their own. We have gone out with the one couple a handful of times-- they are nice and we get along and I like them, but I worry more about them dragging us down than I have confidence that we will "pull them up", though, TBH, we have seemed to be accomplishing a good bit of the latter with them.

Her work GFs, though younger, are very nice, and even, in the case of the one who most hangs out at the after work wine-downs with her, very Christian, so I don't necessarily worry about them being bad influences... except for their seeming acceptance as "okay" of these evenings hanging out with the doc.

W, outside of work, which is VERY demanding of her, does not have any hobbies or activities, really. She, like me, threw herself almost totally into parenting over the past several years. We do both like music and have been spending a lot of time exploring the local music scene. She also dipped her toe into the paddling world last summer/fall and we went kayaking a handful of times. She has talked frequently--eeven since the time we first met-- about taking a motorcycle class but never pulled the trigger. Last week, for the first time, she intimated that maybe we could do that together. She has also talked fairly regularly about going shooting and about being curious about that. I have thought about taking her to a range sometime, but somehow that seems kind of "anti-romantic". She also LOVES to dance, but I have always been a somewhat self-conscious dancer even as I would love to do so with her. She mentions going out dancing with her GF's from time to time but, obviously, that would be with her current GFs.

[AnotherStander]

Sounds like things are going great Jim, that's good to hear! Thanks for the update!

We are "dating" more now than ever, and are planning a tropical getaway (Cancun) for her 50th, about which she is excited, but... also fearful/anxious because she is weight conscious and worries she is now "fat."

Just a quick reminder that when she says things like that, don't disagree, VALIDATE. Our inclination is to say "you don't look fat I think you look great!" But that is invalidating how they feel. You certainly don't want to AGREE with her either, the idea is just to acknowledge her feelings. "You sound anxious about your weight, is that how you are feeling?" "I don't know, just feeling depressed I guess." I'm sorry you feel depressed, is there anything I can do to help?"

[sandi2]

Another Stander and Wonka are the most talented people in teaching how to validate, in my book.

[hoosjim]

Sometimes i really wonder if she and i are going to work out.

She stayed late at work again yesterday for wine and talk with her work GF and the Doctor. She told me, actually even asked me in advance: "Can i stay for a glass of wine after work"-- her exact words. I said who's going to be there? "Me and GF and Doctor". "Sure", i said. Just let me know when youre leaving to come home." This was at 5:15 PM.

At 6:25, her work GF who she's there with texts me, no copy to W. Asks me what i am doing next Friday. Now, i know she is there with W so I joke "That's a pretty bold question since you're sitting right next to my W, what does she say about that?" GF: "Well, W and I are planning something and I want to make sure you're free... Don't tell her i am telling you". Me: "Well, in that case I'm free, normally i'd be doing something with just W, but if you guys are planning something... I should keep it free?" GF: "YES!! Keep that day free!" Me: "OK, will do. Youre not getting her drunk right now so she cant drive home, are you"? GF: "Not at all. We are planning. But please dont tell her and you have to act surprised." GF Again: "Also, looks like we will all be hanging out alot next weekend, because that's my and my daughter's baptisim" (They are both joining the church next weekend). This exchange lasted from 6:35 to 6:50 PM, and, supposedly, my W did not know about it.

7:00 PM, W texts-- finishing last glass, trying to milk it Im' good ill call you when im done. Me: "Rough estimate?" Her: 7:30. Me: "Thx"

7:32-- W: "Almost done."

7:46-- W's GF: "We are leaving now, sorry!!"

8:03-- Me (to W): "Hows it going?"

8:06--W calls "We're leaving now, just have to run to bathroom...Here, talk to GF" (I chit chat with GF for 2 mins, she says,"okay, we're going right after i go to bathroom, bye"

8:23-- W texts me "In elevator"

8:28-- W calls. I hear GF saying "Goodbye, see you tomorrow" and then W getting into car. I am out having gone to the gym at this point and am on my way back. We talk for 28 mins, much of which is like this: W (a wee bit tipsy, just to the "starting to get happy/talkative point): "You're frustrated with me arent you? I can hear it in the tone of your voice. It's like everything changes when i stay after like this" I play it off like "really, i don't think my voice sounds any different" and "What reason would I have to be frustrated". Her: "Well, maybe frustrated is not the right word", and "Your irritated that i stayed after and now want to go to the gym" and "Youre going to want to have a talk, now, arent you" "Maybe we can also talk about how you're being so forward all of a sudden?" (All of this is said kind of playfully, or at least not snarky or angry like). I tell her "Im not mad at you staying after work with your friends, or staying after work to have wine with your friends. It doesn't have to be always black and white with that. Sometimes under the circumstances it might, other times not, but it is not all about 'i hate it when you stay after work to have a glass of wine with your work friends.'

At any rate, she gets home and dresses for gym. She is VERY chatty and jokey, kind of like she gets when she knows she has done something "wrong". She goes to gym for an hour and comes back, and we have a talk. I explain to her my feelings on the matter, much as Sandi2 suggested: "I don;t object to you having friends or even to you staying after work with your friends to have wine, but a couple things about it DO concern me in certain situations. We are where we are now, we got to this point of having to recover from an affair in part because you thought you could be "just friends" with a member of the opposite sex, and there weren't proper boundaries in place. You have said you let OM get too close and that even now you are not sure "where the line was crossed." I dont mind you staying, but the fewer and fewer people who are there with you when you are hanging out with Doctor the more concerned i get and the more inappropriate and dangerous i think it is. When it is just you and GF and doc, i think that that is really playing with fire." Her response here gets a little defensive, as it always does when she thinks she is being accused of wrongdoing: "We got to that point because I was DONE... i was ready to walk out, and now, here again, it is all on me, all my fault, just like it always was with everything else." (And here, in a vacuum, she is somewhat correct, this was part of the neglect pattern that i also would not trust her judgment on things or would intimate she was wrong about things-- not as much as she thought-- she is and always has been very sensitive about being "wrong", but i did do that alot) At any rate, i now ask her "Do you really think that i think that this is "all your fault?", or that i think you should "never be able to hang out with friends" or that "you've [censored] up again"?" We talk back and forth for a few minutes about how we both did things that led us here, and she again says "but if not for the affair, you wouldn't be bothered by what happened tonight" Me: PErhaps not, but i SHOULD be bothered by it... any spouse would. Would you really not bat an eyelash if i asked two attractive women to stop by my office AFTER work to have a glass of wine, just the three of us?" Silence. In my job, if i did that, EVERYONE would raise an eyebrow and/or be talking about it and i might even lose my job." Her: "We're never "alone" in there or behind closed doors. And even when it is just down to the three of us the cleaning crew is in and out of the office space alot."

I mention to her also that Any one on one with doctor is a show-stopper, and that i would have objected had she said back in the fall that she was going to go hang out with him at his son's wrestling match. She says "Is that why you were acting funny on Monday, because i was talking to him alone" Me: "I didn't even know you were "alone" with him (i didn't, nor was i at all upset, concerned or angry)... I thought you just stopped by to ask him a question and make a suggestion about work." Her: "Yes, it was right at the end of the day" ME: "And most everyone was still in the office spaces?" Her: "Well, yes, but he and i were the only ones in his office and the door was open." Me: "I dont think you understand what i am saying,maybe i am not explaining myself well. That is not "alone". The more "alone" you get with him, the riskier it is, and more it concerns me, but that is not "alone". "You've just never really believed, have you, that men find you attractive, and that you can just be open and touchy and friendly with everyone? That's one of the things i actually love about you, is your openness and friendliness, but without appropriate boundaries, especially at the place we are in, it is risky."

I ask her what they talk about for three hours and she says "Work, our kids, sports... we almost always do it the day after the doctor's staff meeting so there is a lot to talk about." Me: "Do you ever discuss your MR and our difficulties? Who, in that office is aware of your situation... you're still not wearing your'e ring" Her: "Some people have noticed that i dont wear a ring, but i just play it off. Only GF and two other girls there know we are having any kind of difficulty or are seeking counselling." Me: Do you talk about his MR? Because the vibe i get when i am around he and his W are that it is not great." W: Nothing that i know about... we dont talk about that stuff."

Me: "What are you doing differently now than you were doing then? To protect our relationship? What boundaries are you setting?" W: "I think it's pretty obvious isnt it? No kissing, no touching except maybe for a friend-like hug, no dirty talking" Me: "Its just, this is something I would never do as a married man, invite two women by my office for drinks after work. It's just looks funny and improper and i think most people would agree." Me again; "Its not about prohibiting you from doing something, its about asking 'how can i still do this (see my friends) without taking dangerous risks with my marriage or sending the wrong signals or hurting my husband."

Other things i say (and pleas note this is stream of consciousness so kinda jumbled up): "When you text him about non-work stuff, why WOULDNT you also copy his W". "Is HIS MR doing okay?"

Idunno. Just when i think things are going well. It was a "hard" conversation, but MR said we need to be able to have those, even if our MR is fully healthy, and be able to recover from them. I feel a huge mash up of emotions over this. Resentment towards doctor because I think this IS improper and that, from his standpoint, it's disprespectful to me and my MR (and to the one or two other married girls' spouses when those girls sometimes stay after.) Frustration (yes, w was right there though i really think i wasnt showing it, no raised voice, no animated gestures or the like, just quiet talking) that W just doesn't seem to "get it" or, alternatively, just doesn't want to be told she's in the wrong and/or wants to do as she pleases with no ramifications. Jealousy (yes, that). Sorrow (Does she really not care how i feel about this). and emptiness... like we're drawing apart again.

The whole concept just seems so simple to me: Continue to see your friends (even the doc), just do it in a less threatening/dangerous way. Don't stay after three hours when you say you're just "Staying for A glass of wine" and then lose track of time (Last night she sais "it WASNT three hours..." (in fact it was almost three hours and fifteen minutes.) Go out to a public place or, better yet, politely decline when it is going to be fewer than four people total.

After we parted this morning, i called her. I said, "you fell asleep while we were still talking. I just wanted you to know that this is NOT about not wanting you to have friends or about saying "you cant hang out with these people"... "Its about finding a way to be friends with and hang out with those people that is safe and has appropriate boundaries."

Idunno. i just feel like the whole thing was a flop. Like i came off or she sees me as desparate and needy or controlling or whatever.

Ugh

[Ginger1]

I think you guys just go around in circles too much, without getting anything solved. Maybe approach the subject simpler, and more succinctly. What you said to us, which I will quote, could have been said to her:

"The whole concept just seems so simple to me: Continue to see your friends (even the doc), just do it in a less threatening/dangerous way. Don't stay after three hours when you say you're just "Staying for A glass of wine" and then lose track of time (Last night she sais "it WASNT three hours..." (in fact it was almost three hours and fifteen minutes.) Go out to a public place or, better yet, politely decline when it is going to be fewer than four people total"

Simple and direct. NO mistakes made on how you feel about this, and what your boundaries are.

Try not to be such a lawyer the next time;)

[hoosjim]

Two other quick addenda since i was stream of conscience-ing.

W did, when she got home, ask me "How do i use this telemedicine app to make an appointment with the MC for an IC session" Now, i am reasonably sure she knows how to use the app, almost seemed to me like a "Okay, i screwed up, now look what a good girl i am being." idunno. She did make the appointment, for next week.

She didn't "go to sleep angry" came over to middle of bed and snugged with me some.

Simple and direct. NO mistakes made on how you feel about this, and what your boundaries are.

Try not to be such a lawyer the next time;)

Okay, but shouldn't i be miffed at her for being defensive and whatever instead of "Oh, wow, hoosjim, i'm sorry that this is hurting you... what can i do to make this better" or "What can we do to make this work."

Its like she doesn't want to admit that things could be done better or differently because that would mean she'd been "wrong" about something.

[Ginger1]

I am just saying, if it was presented differently, she may have understood a little better. You were a bit PA and dancing around things. Which is exactly how I handle things and I am working on, so it's not a judgement. So, I do wonder if maybe her response would have been different if it was presented differently is all.

Sure, she should want to make you feel comfortable. ANd I don't think your boundaries are unreasonable at all. I think she still waivers between the "I want to be married, but I also want to do what I want to do without being made to feel guilty"

[DonH]

I got a few gut reactions to what happened with this latest wine down and thought I'd share.

First off, I'll bet that your W was making comments, perhaps just very off handed light, but still relaying that you might be mad that she's staying after work. That's why I think her GF texted you. I've seen this happen and had it happen with my own exW many years ago. Get a friend to call and smooth things over. I've even seen where the friend will call and ask H if W can stay out one more hour with them.

Next, she knows deep down she should not be doing this and that's why she brought it up and PROJECTED it onto you claiming that you are mad. It's this wayward rebellious part still active in her. She doesn't want to be wrong (more on that in a minute) and also doesn't want to be told what to do.

It's been my experience that people get the most upset when they know that what they are being told is the truth and they don't like it. The more the truth hits them, the madder they get. If your W is getting upset it's because she KNOWS she should not be doing what she is doing but doesn't want to stop. I also think you are correct in that's why she asked about the app - to show you she's being a "good girl".

My last thought however goes to you. Why in the heII do you still not have YOUR wedding ring replaced? This has been talked about now for months and months. Why are YOU dragging YOUR feet on this? I thought you had already decided you were going to go get a replacement ring? I thought that was already decided? You were getting a ring, going to put it on and see if she follows your lead? I'm stumped as to why you have not done this yet? Go get it done - TODAY.

[hoosjim]

My last thought however goes to you. Why in the heII do you still not have YOUR wedding ring replaced?

You're right. Ring ordered. Should be here NLT Saturday. I kept wanting to see what the engraving in hers was cuz I couldn't remember. Kept forgetting to look but your reminder did it thanks.

Hopefully the MC/IC can get to her about these after-work meetings..





[censored]. Just. [censored].

She's talking to him again. At least.


Dammit all to hell. Let myself get sucked in. What a completely cold hearted s**t.