WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[sandi2]

sandi, another outstanding post. You really should write a book.

Some people would say that I write a book every time I post on a thread.

But thanks for your kind words, Steve.

[hoosjim]

Quick update, some good and then some maybe not quite so good (but im not sure)...

How are you coming along with the non-sexual touching? Are you doing some every day? You need to do it, and let them grow into more intimate touching. If you don't intentionally touch her every single day, you will not bring yourself out of this pit. Are you calling her pet name? "Hey, blue eyes"........"Come sit next to me, sexy"..........."See you later, J-Lo" (and add a wink). Oh gosh......if men only knew how sexy a wink can be! They'd wink at everything that moved.

You've got to maintain this flirty, relaxed, fun repertoire. You have to do it on purpose. Yes, you initiate it, b/c you are not a LBH. Don't wait for your W (who is struggling to overcome her wayward mindset).

The good: <Hee hee>... so, W likes for us to order chinese food sometimes instead of cooking, which we did two nights ago. We sometimes do it for S18 when we are going out or both late from work or the like and, when we do, there are always fortune cookies left over which W likes to nibble on but this time she missed them because S18 had put them away instead of leaving them out. So, when I had a couple of minutes to myself i printed out flirty alternate "fortunes", tweezered the original fortunes out of the cookies and replaced them with the ones I'd made-- things like "Ooooh, your silky blond hair, Wow, those big blue eyes" and "If there's a prettier girl in all the state of __________ I don't know who it would be" and "You will soon go on a long tropical journey with "very handsome white man""(One of her friends, who is black, just a couple days back made that comment about me to W, who relayed it me). At any rate, i often, when i am out the door before W in the morning, will set a diet soda out for her on the counter,,,so this time i planted one of the fortune cookies nearby, not so close as to be obvious i was leaving it for her, but more like someone just left it on counter that night. She took the bait like i knew she would and it went over REALLY well. She couldn't top talking to me about it for a while yesterday when she called me. Funny (got her laughing) and flirty... and it led to a pretty good open, loose, intimate conversation that carried over into dinner (I took her out to eat last night.) Patting myself on the back and thanking the good Lord for the inspiration.

The uncertain: W's phone died earlier this week (water immersion), so we took it to the repair shop because she didn't want to lose contacts, pictures, etc. from the phone. In the interim, we got her a replacement phone because repair guy said he could retrieve data but likely not save the phone. So, repair guy calls me wednesday (we gave him my number because didn't know if W would have a phone by then) and says he got the phone dried out and managed to get it powered up so he wouldn't have to charge me for the data retrieval that i could do it myself. Now, this was less urgent after W got her new phone because, as it turns out, most of her pictures and contacts were backed up to Google and downloaded automatically to new phone.So, yesterday, after leaving work early and picking up phone, i had myself with an unusual opportunity--chance to fully examine W's phone and a couple of hours to do so. On the one hand I was like "okay, supposed to be in a trusting place now" but, OTOH, she had entrusted phone(as well as the phone password) to me previously. So i checked it out, because, hey, i hadn't spot checked in a while and figured it wouldn't hurt. At any rate, found no suspicious apps and no record of any suspicious apps in the app store. Also checked her text strings. String with bff was about as expected, though bff not trashing me as much as i expected, at least recently... in fact not really at all. Even wondering if w would be "bringing me" if she came to lunch one time. As for Om, nothing recent (and i wouldve seen it on the phone bill, anyway), BUT... way down near the bottom of her texts was still the thread she had with OM dating back to Fall of 2016 and ending shortly after BD in February 2017. Was interesting because it gave me a closer look at the timeline of what happened between them-- I'd say the "line crossing" definitely started early November. Nothing really steamy (though i know W deleted a number of texts including the pics they sent back and forth) though alot of "we have so much in common" and music sernade (he plays an instrument) and other flirty stuff by OM. Im a bit troubled that it is still on there (though OM has been deleted from her contacts), though it is way, way, way down near the bottom of what is, on her phone, an extremely long history of text threads. At any rate, it's gone now (I deleted everything prior to 12 months ago-- figured she either wouldn't notice or could attribute it to phone damage). ALSO, this exchange between her and the married doctor who works at her office, which i find slightly troubling:

6:21, Dr: "Thank you, Happy Valentine's Day! [Texts were from 2/14, remember W and went out next night b/c Ash Wednesday, so she worked her normal late Wednesday til 6 or so. The "thank you" i am assuming is for some miraculous deed my wife performed in terms of billing or patient management or the like-- she's very good at her job]

6:22, W: "Thank you, ditto. Sorry if I over shared"

6:22, W Dr: "Not at all, I would be so lucky."

6:56, W: "See you tomorrow, good night"

At 6:22, W would have been walking to car or just getting into car to come home, at 6:56 she had gotten home.

There is nothing else directly "suspicious" in any of their texts, which are probably two-thirds to threee-quarters about work, with the rest being small-talk chit chat about sports or their respective kids (he has two in high school and junior high). One time he did imply that he was going to be "all alone" watching his one son at his first wrestling match because his W had to work, and my W mused that maybe she could come over to the HS and keep him company and fill him in on wrestling rules, etc, since our son wrestled, but she never did go (and, fwiw, at the time this occurred she told me about it: "Dr. _______'s son is wrestling his for the first time ever tomorrow and Mrs. Doctor can't make it and he knows nothing about wrestling... I told him maybe i should drop by and fill him in on things-- this was several months ago when W and i were in very early post-affair stage, and i did not say anything at the time or object because W quickly said she wasn't going but...)

At any rate, the "I would be so lucky" comment by the doctor in response to my W's "oversharing" troubles me. 1) It was oversharing on her part with OM that ultimately, and probably directly, led to the A with OM, and our MC has been clear about telling us this that for women emotional intimacy precedes physical intimacy and the desire therefor. 2) To me "I would be so lucky" is a veiled (or even not so veiled) flirtation. Now, W, who has consistently maintained that she and doctor are just friends which, for the time being, i believe and accept, has been historically naive about such things, never thinking that guys "want her" and always wanting to "be friends" with them without more. She would as a result be considered by many men to be a "tease". So, she would definitely not buy that that was some overture by the doctor and, in fact, has told me twice that he "definitely doesn't" have any such designs/desires.

That text exchange occurred before our MC session where we discussed the periodic after-work wine-downs involving said doctor and our counselor discussed (again) the link between emotional intimacy and sexual intimacy with women, and emphasized the importance of maintaining proper boundaries, and W seemed to accept this. At any rate, she turned down a couple such invites from coworkers to stay for such wine-downs before staying for one earlier this week. (Where she told me in advance, kept me constantly updated, and only stayed for one glass then came home.

At any rate, doctor's designs definitely concern me. I know him, though we are not close, and we are friendly. I like the guy. But he is a man and my W is a beatiful woman, and i have heard some rumblings lately that his W may have a bit of a drinking problem (which is why he keeps his wine collection at his office) and that his MR may be strained.

What, if anything, should i do about this? I don't necessarily want W to know that i did a "deep dive" on her phone and, TBH, that one text string his hardly a "smoking gun" of anything nefarious going on. OTOH... boundaries are important. I think she understands that conceptually but somehow may not see the early warning signals (she maintains to this day that she is not sure exactly when she crossed the line with Om or exactly how it happened.) Do I just keep pushing her to continue the IC and hope the MC can get through to her about such things, or do i need to bring this up (as risky as it is-- and I have already brought up my concerns about this doctor generally in the guise of "Are you making sure you are maintaining proper boundaries and not, as you said happened with the OM, 'letting him in' or 'letting him get too close'?" To which W has responded "Yes, i understand"..


Oh...and i got a kiss on the lips this morning as she was leaving to go to store (I know, i know, but baby steps...)

Also, she's been like in constant contact almost, calling, texting, etc., since the "fortune cookie" gambit yesterday. I think she really liked that.




Other encouraging little tidbits:

She is once again referring to my alma mater (she went to a different college and was an athlete herself) as "We.." and "...us" with respect to sporting events, which she has not done in a loooong time.

She has started initiating very intimate conversations about anatomy, sexuality, etc.

[sandi2]

Excellent job with the cookies!

These type of interactions are as good as foreplay! When you want to make love to a woman..,,,you start at the head, first. By the time you get to Mexico, she may be popping at the seams. .

A kiss on the lips, huh? I told ya if she gets closer to your mouth, it's a good sign.

Okay, about the doctor..........I just plain out don't like the flirtatious tones. I think he would jump at the chance. And your W.......I would gladly give a good shaking, if it would make her use common sense. This is the behavior pattern that led to the EA with OM. If she does not get it through her head that she cannot discuss her private MR issues to another man......then she will continue setting her own snares. She doesn't need to discuss anything personal with another guy, and the fact that she likes guy friends more gal friends......does not change the standards of conduct. She betrayed that standard when she went outside her M and had an A......and with a "friend". For her to think it's perfectly fine to continue pushing boundaries with other men (in any capacity) is not okay.......and she has to live by an appropriate code of conduct, or endure the consequences. IMHO, those are some of the tough love policies that need to be in place, especially when a W has betrayed her H. I find in most cases reported on the board, the H is either so afraid of losing his W, or he doesn't know enough about waywards at the point of confrontation/boundaries/reconciliation, to insist that a code of conduct be respected by his W.

That is why I am not in favor of male and female co-workers getting too cozy after work. And to know she was considering meeting him and sitting with him at his S's wrestling match......without either of the spouses being present? That is just inappropriate in my book. Where I live, gossip would spread like wildfire. You don't poke the fire if you don't wang flames. And after she's coming back from a previous A? It's practically a written invitation to repeat the same performance, if she does not learn and accept it is disrespectful to her H.........and dangerous to her MR. She has to intentionally affair-proof her M.......and she doesn't seem to realize that it begins by not repeating the same mistakes, and the same behavior patterns. She needs to adopt a new code of conduct, if she is sincere about not having another affair. I hope the IC can help her come to terms with that issue.

Do I think she is viewing the Doc as her next affair candidate? No, not seriously, anyway. I see her being very careless, and not learning from her past mistakes......at least, not enough to change the behavior that got her there. I think a lot of it is exactly how you've explain her. But......it is still unacceptable behavior. Do I think she is in an EA with the Doc? No, but I think she plays with fire........and although she seems to be responding to you a lot better, and putting more effort into working on the MR......it concerns me that she acts like she sees nothing wrong with those type of interactions with men. She puts herself in situations that invite suggestive attention. I mean, the fact that she's very attractive and draws the attention of the men around her, should.....if anything.....alert her inner self to be cautious that she does not give the impression she is welcoming any form of inappropriate actions. Long before I became a Christian, my mother taught (and was a perfect role model) of how a lady should conduct herself. To this day, if I am around other men, it is more important to me that they respect me as lady, first, and then as a Christian. Did I fail in both categories during my outward rebellion.......of course, I did. Did I learn from my mistakes and how I could affair proof my M to the best of my abilities? Yes, I think I did.

IDK, maybe it was how I was raised, but I have also witnessed women who display that sort of flirty behavior & attitude......are usually not thought of very highly by their surrounding female coworkers (or whatever circles). Unless, of course, the other women act in the same manner. The circles I have been associated with (co-workers, social, etc), most of the other ladies would have frowned on it, and maybe talked badly about her. But maybe things are different in her world.....IDK. But I do know this much......I would be a very unhappy spouse if I learned another woman had gone to my son's wrestling match with the intentions of meeting up with my H and sitting next to him to give him pointers. . It's just not cool, and I don't think a spouse should be expected to be cool with those types of situations. There is a certain code or standard by which one conducts themselves, out of respect for the spouse/marriage. (Nothing like hearing some kind of statement like this from a former wayward W, eh?)

What can you do about it? I'd tell the IC, and give her time to work with your W about these issues. I would ask the IC what should be your best response, should your W mention meeting the Doc somewhere other than work......and without the spouses. If it were me, I'd tell her without hesitation I had a big problem with it. If the IC can enlighten you in how to handle it best, then go with her advice.

You know how I refer to the selfishness of a WW. When there was never a physical separation, and the wayward is somewhat emotionally reluctant in doing the necessary work in the MR (the way your W has done....and the way I did), but nevertheless, she "is still there"................ her selfishness does not vanish overnight. Neither does her other negative feelings, but I am pointing mainly at her selfishness right now. Some W's will tell the H, "Hey, this who I am, and I'm not going to change". It would be closer to the truth to say she doesn't want to change, b/c she doesn't love/respect their MR enough to conduct herself accordingly. In some cases, the A ends but that inward rebellious spirit is still wanting to get out. This varies with the individual sitch.

The H can set boundaries and hold her feet to the line about her outward show of respect, etc. The inner work is up to her. If she doesn't want to feel differently enough to change her actions......and do the spiritual repentance & healing in her heart/mind.......then how will the MR ever been fulfilling for her? Do you see what I mean? She's got to resolve the spiritual issue, before her rebellion ends. And as long as she feels rebellious, her selfishness is going to tell her to do what feels good and not to change for somebody else's sake.......not even for her M. So, I think your W is slowly coming along, but she is resistant to whatever the spiritual problem is with her (good girl vs bad good syndrome). My concern, is that until her inner conflict is settled, she keeps wanting to poke the fire. Let's pray she doesn't get too close to the flame, before the IC can help her. Although she had strong doubts about the MR improving, she had reasons for staying.......and from what you can tell, she did end her affair and is putting more effort into the MR.

I will share this with you, FWIW, and hope it will encourage. Several months ago, I was posting to someone who asked me questions about my A, the timeline, etc. I was explaining how I really don't remember too much about the timelines, and how long it took for this or that. I never really dwelt on it, to be honest. I think the LBS is more aware about the timeframes than the wayward. Anyway, I paused typing for a minute and realized I couldn't even remember the OM's last name! Now some of you may think that's a great sign.....and I hope it is, but at my age, forgetfulness can be a little scary. It finally came to mind what his last name was (or close enough), and I felt a sigh of relief.......not to remember him, but that I hadn't completely lost my mind......yet. Here's the thing I want to point out. The OM was not even important enough for his last name to instantly enter my head a decade later. However, I clearly remember what led me to that reckless behavior in the very beginning. Not only do I avoid doing anything again to lead to that source of temptation ....... But I think I am more cautious than ever, in how I present myself when interacting with other men. My personality type is very friendly........so I don't want to give the wrong impression. Do I wish I could just be "me" and not be concerned about what others think? I have learned that "me" has changed. I can be friendly......even fun, and yet maintain a respectful distance, without appearing cold or angry. Just one example would be.....don't get "touchy" when laughing and having fun with someone. People can mistake it to mean something else (even a friendly or sympathic hug). Some men see a very friendly lady as being too forward, or as flirty behavior. Although innocent, she may have to learn to tone it down. Funny thing happened on the way to affair-proofing my M.......my rebellious spirit seemed to have died along the way.

((hugs))

[hoosjim]

Sandi--these last posts of yours have been pure gold, thanks.

My plan: I will certainly bring this up with MC when i have my IC this coming week and get her input and seek her help in reemphasizing to my W the importance of appropriate boundaries. I will also continue to nudge W toward further IC of her own. Finally, if the opportunity presents itself, i will again voice my concerns-- more emphatically this time-- about her interactions with the doctor (I have enough to go on without outing myself for searching her text streams) and, perhaps, establishing a couple of boundaries of my own: "If we are going to be married and working on reconciling our MR, I can't accept you hanging out solo with other men, married or not, and i need to know you are committed to not sharing MR or other intimate information with other men, as well."

If she wants to be friends with other men, okay... but would only be appropriate for me to be present where such interactions occur.

The more i think about that text from the doctor, the more it bugs me... definitely flirtatious and suggestive. I could even see myself having used that line myself in the past... and i'd've only been looking for one thing in doing so.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim, Are you asking what to do about something that happened a long time ago?

I'm not clear on how recent the flirty messages are (and yes, "I should be so lucky" IS absolutely flirtatious. To me that's not reasonably disputed).

And my opinion, not a that a boss probably would not initiate it. So, Is this last month February, or last year's February?

And Just to get my bearings on your timeline -
So, are all these events and various OM's and EAs or whatever you call them, all going back to the fall of 2016?

Yikes, that's a long phase of guessing and riddle playing to be mired in. I'm so sorry.

When you are in it, it's hard to see the forest for the trees.

Do you have a timeline in your mind about how long you'll give this? I'm just asking.





PS

the "I'll be all alone" comment was more flirting. The idea that your wife would think he needed HER input into wrestling so he could manage to understand what was happening, is a real stretch for me.

Our son wrestled A LOT, as did x h and my brothers. It's a silly explanation and very hard to imagine that a physician who is presumably reasonably intelligent, needs your wife to keep him company so he can understand what he's seeing.

IMO She has no boundaries, at best.

And I would not wait for her to go to IC, and then wait some more, for her to spontaneously figure out something that she has not yet come to understand.

Besides, isn't it up to YOU to set some boundaries? What will YOU accept?

Boundaries are not about you setting them on her, they are about you setting boundaries on what you will tolerate and for how long.

Have you thought about this?

[hoosjim]

And Just to get my bearings on your timeline -
So, are all these events and various OM's and EAs or whatever you call them, all going back to the fall of 2016?

There was one EA and one OM, commencing in early November 2016. I discovered it in late January 2017. It continued until late July 2017 and it is possible, though i have good reason to doubt, that it briefly became a PA sometime after February 2017.

There is and has been no affair with the doctor... it is (so far) just poor boundary setting.

Would you suggest i confront her specifically about the texts she does not know i went looking at? FWIW i think i have enough else to go on to insist she tighten things up.

[25yearsmlc]

And Just to get my bearings on your timeline -
So, are all these events and various OM's and EAs or whatever you call them, all going back to the fall of 2016?

There was one EA and one OM, commencing in early November 2016. I discovered it in late January 2017. It continued until late July 2017 and it is possible, though i have good reason to doubt, that it briefly became a PA sometime after February 2017.

Meaning, she had an affair, & kept at it for awhile, even after you confronted her? And you think it has probably ended for good. Correct?

From the thread it seems you are doing a lot of "marriage policing", which can be a soul sucking endeavor. Ugh.

There is and has been no affair with the doctor... it is (so far) just poor boundary setting.

why do you think it's not an affair? I'm just asking how you'd know.


Would you suggest i confront her specifically about the texts she does not know i went looking at? FWIW i think i have enough else to go on to insist she tighten things up.

I'm not sure what else you have, but if this is her boss, I'd want her to work elsewhere b/c it's way WAY out of bounds to text that type of thing to a boss or for him to text it to a subordinate.

Seriously, I'd be unable to stop the guessing if it were my spouse and that would eat away at any shred of self esteem or trust I was trying to build.

Also, if it were ME in your wife's shoes - and IF I really wanted my m to work out, I'd be loathe to engage in any behavior that might remotely be misconstrued.

Yet here, she's blatantly engaging in behavior that is dangerous to the m.

You don't want to show your cards and I get that. But leaving this alone is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

I'm wondering if she has a pattern - and whether this is it.

[hoosjim]

M

eaning, she had an affair, & kept at it for awhile, even after you confronted her? And you think it has probably ended for good. Correct?

The A when i discovered it was an EA, and i am pretty sure, based on what i heard at the time passing between the two, that W thought (or more likely was telling/lying to herself) that it was "just" friendship and flirting and "was not an affair." When i discovered it, she actually stepped away from it for, probably 2-3 weeks, after which she had a meet up or something involving her bff and OM and it rekindled, and from there it became more serious, not sure if it ever went physical (though i have some reason to doubt it did) and not sure it matters. I had started monitoring her and confronted her with what i had found out, i believe, without checking, in June and we had a "false start" during which contact with OM continued... which i again found out about when we had our final blow out about where i walked away and she melted down. She did not and still does not know that i knew about the A during much of the time i knew about it, though she does know that i somehow discovered eventually pretty much all that transpired. IOW, as far as she knows, i didn't find out about the rekindled and more "serious" A until, as I said, May/June, and, as far as she knows, i only discovered that she had been continuing the A (or at least contact W/om) on July 23, 2017.

Following that, i have been doing less and less "policing" as you say, or "monitoring" and, since December, almost none at all. I did the deep dive on her phone because it was easy and an almost "no risk" proposition to do so and I hadn't checked up on her in long time.

why do you think it's not an affair? I'm just asking how you'd know.

I could give you a detailed explanation but the bottom line is lack of opportunity. I suppose she could have feelings for him and there is no way for sure i would know that (though i think i would suspect... she's fairly transparent that way) but right now i am pretty confident that there has not been anything that would qualify as an "A", unless you are being VERY broad with that definition. That said, i am definitely uncomfortable with her boundary-setting and awareness.

I'm not sure what else you have, but if this is her boss, I'd want her to work elsewhere b/c it's way WAY out of bounds to text that type of thing to a boss or for him to text it to a subordinate.

Not her boss, and it's questionable as to whether or not he is a suprior. He is definitely not a "direct" superior. W is a front office manager for entire office, and also secretary for one of the doctors (a different one) in a multi-doctor practice. She reports directly to 1) Her doctor and 2) The overall practice manager. I think the "friend" doctor may have input at some point on front office performance, but he's not a supervisor. My W has been there a good bit longer than he has, over 25 years, so she has some "pull".

[Ginger1]

Just my humble opinion. The old texts from OM..... I wouldn't mention that at all. She probably did keep them as a sentimentality at that time, but probably forgot she did and just never deleted them. And I would imagine that she would have a reaction to them being gone if she was still looking over them in a sentimental way. So I would hold off saying anything on that.

This doctor. Sandi said it best. She may have no intentions, but the doctor does, and she is not affair proofing the M by spending time alone with the doctor and oversharing things about her personal life. I think many affairs begin this way (I believe my own ex's did) and it's not even going in with that intention, but it happens. ANd you know I am one of the most liberal on not controlling what the WAS spouse does. But this just seems like asking for trouble. Again, I don't think this is her intention, she just doesn't understand some boundaries. This would be worthy of being brought up and why it makes you feel uncomfortable and I do believe you have a reasonable compromise.

I feel like she needs some decent girlfriends to confide in. I believe we all need one or two close confidants we can talk about the most personal stuff to, outside of our spouses, but she her choosing isn't the best.

[hoosjim]

Just my humble opinion. The old texts from OM..... I wouldn't mention that at all. She probably did keep them as a sentimentality at that time, but probably forgot she did and just never deleted them. And I would imagine that she would have a reaction to them being gone if she was still looking over them in a sentimental way. So I would hold off saying anything on that.

Actually WRT the old texts, I had not intended on saying anything about them. I figured it was much like you said and was not particularly worried about them. In fact o considered it a fortuitous blessing, sort of a "time to start over" thing that the phone crapped out when it did.

I was actually seeking input on the brief text exchange between her and doctor that o described. That one text from him is probably the most disturbing piece of "evidence" if you want to call it that, and the one thing that seems to clearly cross the line, so I thought it might bear mentioning/discussing with my W even if it meant some ruffled feelings for "snooping" on her phone (which phone, of course she had entrusted to me along with password snd had not deemed it necessary to delete that text string). OTOH, there is clearly enough "there" in addition to the text to justify/support a discussion about the issue, IMHO, so maybe better to just let that text string be (?)

I feel like she needs some decent girlfriends to confide in. I believe we all need one or two close confidants we can talk about the most personal stuff to, outside of our spouses, but she her choosing isn't the best.

Actually, her GFs are contributing to the problem. We all know about her bff of course, but she has several GFs at wirk, all 20 something or very early 30 domething... just all the sweetest, nicest, people, but... like the majority of that generation, particularly the 20 somethings, it seems like they talk about EVERYTHING to EVERYONE. Not much modesty or guarding of intimacy anywhere... which bis prolly one reason the D rate continues to rise and M rate to drop. At any rate, these younger women, who I have hung out with with my W on occasion and who all like me and get along with me, are the same ones hanging out with this doctor after hours and encouraging my W to do the same. Now,bin their defense, quite often there are several people, both en and women there, and never behind closed foors, but, on some occasions, it is as few as the doctor, my w, and one or two other girls, who seem to see jo problem with this.

I have, of vourse, made clear to my W that I would absolutely object to it being just her and the doctor there together.

I feel ike I should also ask her: "when you text the doc about non work related stuff, chit chat or whatever, is there any reason why you shouldn't be copying/texting Mrs. Doctor at same time?