WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[SteveLW]

I'm kidding. Just nothing really going on. S1 in town for spring break and S2 has had basketball playoffs. We're having our first "kid free" night in a while tonight.

She's been more snuggly in bed, and kissed me back when i went to give her a hug and a peck as i was leaving for work today... Kind of threw me cuz it was a first and unexpected. (No tongues)

Yeah my wife will peck kiss and even have sex. But nip open mouth kissing or tongue. Makes me sad.

[Gordie]

Jim,

I have been following along but not posting. I am not a vet but a fellow journeyman who feels the same way you do about separation. I do think both of you are making efforts which is good. What I think is not working for you is pressing for R talks. This is really hard but that’s helped me and my situation. Those talks are pressure.

[Vanilla]

People kiss with tongues?

You young folk! Whatever next.....

V

[sandi2]

It may blow minds of men, but I'll say for some women (just to be safe) the deep, intimate, tongue kissing is more........(how should I say......) personal or sensual, than intercourse. Remember the movie "Pretty Woman" where the two hookers were talking about having sex and avoiding kissing with their clients? The hookers looked at sex as a business and did not want to risk an emotional connection............which came from kissing. It plays on the woman's senses. Kisses will fill her senses, or leave her empty. It will turn her on.... or off. Even in the early dating years, how the man's kisses make her feel, plays a critical part in how the R develops. I don't mean to make her sound shallow....but I hope you know what I mean.

Women can let a man have intercourse with her, while her mind is on the conference she had with her kid's teacher that day. That's usually when she's just laying there and he's doing all the work. But kissing normally requires some type of response, whether she responds to intercourse or not. Slow, sexy, wet, deep kissing......is more sensual or personal for her. Maybe b/c it's closer to her brain, IDK, but it is harder to have tongue kisses while thinking about everything she needs to pick up at the grocery store. It touches her senses, good or bad......and it will either cause her to want more, ......or she'll pull back. Whereas, she is physically and emotionally capable of laying there like a corpse and having no response, while the man has sex with her........it is something about staying engaged in tongue kissing that draws a response of some type.

In many cases, the H can guage the temperature of his MR by his W's kisses. If he notices she is not kissing before/during sex, that's a red flag. If she avoids tongue kisses, that's a red flag. Their M is rapidly declining......even if she agrees to have sex with him. No kissing = red flag! If a W is just giving her H a peck on the cheek......and that's all the type of kisses he gets from her.....their MR is in big trouble. It doesn't mean she is in an affair, but it means she is not sexually attracted to her H the way she once was. She can give anyone a peck on the cheek, b/c it does not require or indicate anything sexual. Telling the H goodbye or goodnight and giving him a quick peck......is more out of habit than any affection. It's as if she thinks a peck will hold him at bay.

If the MR is clawing its way back from the grave, it may not have seen any peck kisses in a long time......so a peck is a start. Next step is her mouth getting closer to his. Maybe her lips stay closed, but she at least puts her mouth on his. Next step is opening her lips. (Reminds you of school days, doesn't it? Trying to get to that point of French kissing the girl). The hotter she feels attraction for him.......the more she'll enjoy his passionate tongue kissing.

If the MR is not where it use to be, and/or the W is in an EA/PA....or even if she has a high sex drive and she craves physical release that comes in having sex.......she might engage in sex with her H. However, it does not mean she is feeling desire for him, personally. There use to be a song, "It's in His Kiss". Well, it's in the woman's kisses that tell the real story of how she feels about him........not about sex or anything else.....but about him, the man.

[hoosjim]

<heavy sigh>

Somewhat discouraging day all around. Lost some money on a bad investment, aggravated my old shoulder injury at the gym, found out the star player on my school's basketball team is hurt for the tourney and might not play, and slightly discouraging evening with W to top it off.

Had IC earlier in the day. W has not scheduled her next session yet though says "I need to do that." Talked generally about me being able to "get over" various things, like W's friendship with bff (MC says i shouldn't compromise my values on that, and should make my feelings known when they arise, BUT that the relationship may die off of its own accord when bff moves out of state-- MC also very interested in dynamic between W and bff, thought maybe it was co-dependent and maybe W attracted to bff because W's low self esteeem and "good girl" struggles-- bff is strong personality and definitely "rebel, bad girl") She is very eager to get W back into IC soon. Counselled me to keep maintaining balance in my own life, not to backtrack on my GAL's and 180s, keep journalling. Also advised me to be more contemplative when approaching W about sensitive subjects, in particular to think out conversations ahead of time so I am responding to W's responses not emotionally but with well thought out responses.

Tonight, W and I talked about several things.

1) IC-- i mentioned i had done mine today instead of thursday due to MC being booked up. W said, "I really need to do that, to talk to her about a couple of things..." which led into

2) Discussion about upcoming MExico trip for her 50th. W: "I am really excited to be going, but i am also worried." Reasons being, she is concerned about her weight-- "I really need to drop about 15 to 20 pounds in 8 weeks.. i don't like the idea of having to buy "fat clothes" for this trip to this nice resort.. i want to buy cute clothes that will fit me when im skinnier", also concerned about leaving kids alone for close to a week (I reminded her they are 18 and almost 20), and, finally, the biggie: "i AM excited about going, but... I'm, idon't nknow...I guess worried that it will be like Key West when we were first dating.. that we'll go on this nice expensive trip and then when we come back...[long, long silence]" and i finish for her: "You'll get cold feet." (Color on this-- Key West was the first "get away together" trip we ever took when we were first dating, at the end of our "summer romance" in 1992. It was nice, and fun, but when we came back she got her first real serious case of "cold feet" about us. She'd had a couple of starts and stops previously, but, this time, not a week after we got back, we went out for ice cream or something, came back, i dropped her off, she got out of car and said something like: "Well, maybe I'll see you at the gym sometime." And walked into her apartment. She started seeing another guy within the week. That didn't last and she briefly "dated" another dude before coming back to me. (I didn't pursue but did call her up once or twice just to see how she was doing, and she did likewise) We got back together 6 months after the breakup when SHE invited ME to go on a birthday trip (hers) down to Florida for a week. At any rate, TONIGHT, she's like, "I don't want to be coming back and then if things dont work out you're going to be like 'oh, yeah, now that you've gotten this nice trip you're going to bolt'" My response to her was that i thought our MC's take on all of this would be that she was focusing too much on what could go wrong and not "acting as if" things were going to work out with us and what they would look like if they did work out. She kind of nodded at this, but I did not find the exchange at all encouraging.

Finally, we did one of the touching exercises-- each in turn lying face up on bed while the other explored/caressed the others' face, eyes closed. MC had said-- "you need to start getting used to touching each other again intimately. Even if these exercises feel awkward, it will be valuable because then the more natural touches in "real life" will feel less awkward and more natural by comparison". At any rate, we did it, at my suggestion, though she was willing, and, both agreed it was nice. We discussed it as we were supposed to, my sense was that she is a very sensual person, very communicative by touch, and that that conveyed when she was touching me-- not necessarily in an erotic way (though it was a bit of that, too), but definitely intimate-feeling. We also both agreed it felt like i was "holding back" some (which is true, i definitely didn't want to come off as being seductive as it seemed more of an exploratory exercise to me) and that I (hoosjim) "got the better of it" on the receiving end. She lingered a long time on my face, maybe twice as long as I did on hers, say 8-10 mins versus about five for me. At any rate, i didn't feel like i came across as confident with my touch as i should have (I kinda wish she had gone first, in which case i would definitely have been less restrained. Wow she is good.)

[hoosjim]

Oh, and i forgot, we had a long talk last night or night before about bff and my best friend and their respective STBXS's and that whole love quadrangle and how it would impact us socially in the future. W had had lunch Sunday with bff and other GF, and then shared with me monday that bff's AP had been there, too. She knows because i have told her how uncomfortable that whole dynamic makes me, not only because they (bff and AP) are both serial cheaters and betrayers, but b/c bff's AP knows about my W's A). W maintains she doesn't know how bff's AP could possibly know about her (W's) A with Om, to which i responded "Well, he does, he told MY friend and said he'd seen pics of you two together, which could only have come from your bff". This was all a bit disingenuous on my W's part, unless she really was in total brain fog, as i had previously heard bff telling W, many months ago, that "It was still weird for _________ (bff's AP and my former friend) to see you (my W) with OM".

Anyhoo, i maintained that it would be most uncomfortable for me to socialize with bff and AP together (for obvious reasons) ,and somewhat less uncomfortable to socialize with bff and W together without bff's AP. This due to me "not blaming" bff as much as i could have for her (bff's) A because it seemed to me that my own friend "enabled that A to a large degree." Something that i almost immediately regretted saying because it minimized the significance of bff's having an A

W for her part said it didn't feel weird hanging out with bff and AP, and that they "seemed happy." [Oh YAY! Everybody's HAPPY!!! It must be the right thing! Oh, wait, nobody asked the kids. Oops.-- I didn't say that BTW but did think it.]

She (W) did say it might seem weird hanging out with my friend and his current "woman", who is bff's AP's STBXW (they are effectively swapping spouses-- follow?)



So this morning she comes and hugs and kisses ME on her way out door (jus a peck, but remember that's new for us) as opposed to me initiating. Just something different. Guess she is still trying.

This mindset (cold feet) she seems to keep having is worrisome though. I tend to agree with MC that we should be trying to focus on what it will look like for us to be together in the future rather than thinking about a future apsrt.

[Ginger1]

Just one little bit of advice....

You are truly a very analytical over-thinker. It's your nature, who you are and that is fine. If you are going to let that go a little anywhere in your life, let it be when you are having intimate moments with your wife. Like the face touching. Don't hold back. That's is the time you should get out of your head and truly lead with the soul and maybe even with the guy in your pants, ya know what I mean? There are moments it is ok to do that.

[SteveLW]

sandi, thanks for the explanation on kissing for women.

to update, my wife has now open mouth kissed me a few times. still no tongue kissing (at least on the mouth), but we are closer than we were 2 weeks ago.

[sandi2]

"I really need to drop about 15 to 20 pounds in 8 weeks.. i don't like the idea of having to buy "fat clothes" for this trip to this nice resort.. i want to buy cute clothes that will fit me when im skinnier",

She voices the very thoughts I have had many times. She imagines herself being on the beach and how she's going to look in her bathing suit. You don't have to share this with her, but she is not going to lose that much weight in 8 weeks. Not for a woman turning 50. Unless she is retaining fluid, she'd do good to lose 10-12 pounds on a strict, but healthy, diet. If she starves herself, it won't help the MR, b/c she would be irritable and unhealthy.

She feels bad about herself. She doesn't like turning 50. It may not be so much the number, but the stigma our society has given it. Every product for women on the market promises a more youthful appearance/feeling. It is a challenge to shop for attractive, yet appropriate dresses, b/c it is geared to young & skinny.

It's a sensitive subject, but the only thing I know to suggest is for you to approach her about her concerns. Assure her that from your male point of view (not just as her H), she is still beautiful and that she looks better than most women who are much younger. Tell her how proud you are to be seen with her, and for people to know she is your W. Then express how you want her to feel better about herself and to not let the size number of her clothes prevent her from enjoying the trip to Mexico. (B/c she is actually trying to find an excuse to back out, if she can't drop some weight). Tell her if she wants to exercise, you would love for her to go with you to the gym, and it could be a team activity. If she wants to diet, you'll help her anyway you can (not buying or eating goodies in front of her, going out to eat while she's dieting, etc).

However, you know her best and know how she may respond. All you can do is show that you want to encourage her to feel better about herself. Ultimately, it's up to her if she allows the weight to dictate whether or not she goes and enjoys a beautiful and expensive trip with her H, who is trying very hard to save their MR.

FWIW, I agree 100% with Ginger's comments. Living in a SSM is an ego buster......for both spouses. Don't hold back with the touching, b/c she could think she looks repulsive. Don't wait on her. You have to get yourself out of that mindset. Did the MC say whether or not you can say anything while touching?

You have previously said she knows you think she's beautiful. But women need to hear it often from the H. And they need him to be more specific about how she is pretty to him. Part of being intimate is verbally making love. When touching her face, tell her how her skin is baby soft. You get lost in her blue eyes. Trace her lips with the tip of your finger and say, "Oh at the times looking at this mouth has distracted me from what I was doing (or saying)". (Something to that effect).

For me, saying words while touching, would take away the awkwardness. But they have to sound sincere. Don't get the giggles! Don't sound stiff and formal. Speak so softly, it's more like a whisper. It should sound as if you don't realize that you are saying your thoughts out loud.......as if you really are lost in looking at her. It's as if you are worshipping her beautiful body. You love this woman, so show it in your touch, and in your soft words.

And, you may not want to say it all at one time. But at least comment on some particular feature. Tell her how her long blonde hair looks sexy and still drives you crazy. You love kissing her slender neck (if she has a slender neck). Trace the outline of one of her ears. I won't go down the length of her body, but during the touching exercises, or not exercises, take an opportunity to express how you admire her body features.

How are you coming along with the non-sexual touching? Are you doing some every day? You need to do it, and let them grow into more intimate touching. If you don't intentionally touch her every single day, you will not bring yourself out of this pit. Are you calling her pet name? "Hey, blue eyes"........"Come sit next to me, sexy"..........."See you later, J-Lo" (and add a wink). Oh gosh......if men only knew how sexy a wink can be! They'd wink at everything that moved.

You've got to maintain this flirty, relaxed, fun repertoire. You have to do it on purpose. Yes, you initiate it, b/c you are not a LBH. Don't wait for your W (who is struggling to overcome her wayward mindset). I say this again, mainly for any newcomers who don't understand why I'd encourage this type of behavior. Once both are working to piece the M back together, their behavior toward each other should encourage closeness and growth........not distance and coolness. (That's not say he should smother her). One reason this particular MR struggles is b/c of the years of no intimacy. It's just not that easy to get back into a physical intimate R, when there has been 10 yrs of no sex. When the sex goes, the affection and tenderness follow.

I support MWD's point of view that you basically just have to start doing it, in order to get it going. However, I also understand, as a wayward W who isn't experiencing loving feelings when coming out of an A. Men want to have sex to seal the deal, especially after an A. Women want to feel a connection before having sex. So, there you go. Pressure is on both of them, b/c of the degree of scrutiny on their responses to each other.

Jim, I don't know if your MC has ever personally experienced being a WW, or closely associated to one. Sometimes, she seems to "get it". From what you have shared about the sessions and her guidance in piecing the M back together......she seems to "get" your W. She saw from the beginning how the friendship with BFF is unhealthy and badly influences your W's attitudes in the MR. She also seems to understands the results the long SSM has had, and what to do in order to get back into an intimate R. As far as MC's go, she has seemed to be a good one. Knowing she needs to see your W in IC, soon, makes me like her even more. When your W said she didn't know if MC was right for her.......I suspected it was b/c MC has her number and does not show favoritism, and/or b/c she gets closer to the root issues more than your W would like. Anyway, stay after your W about making another appointment for IC with this counselor. I think she'll try to get lazy about it and, maybe, about the homework, too. So, continue taking the lead.

[SteveLW]

sandi, another outstanding post. You really should write a book.

Jim, I've been doing a lot of what sandi is saying here, and yes it does pay dividends. No doubt about it. My wife calls and texts me throughout the day now just to tell me fun stuff or to talk. 3 months ago she never contacted me unless there was something pressing. We are having sex again, and lots of it.

I attribute a lot of it to doing exactly what sandi is saying here. Don't underestimate the power of LISTENING to your wife. Just let her talk. Just listen to her go. Don't try to interject, give advice or fix. Just LISTEN. They love it. It is like verbal foreplay.

Also, the non-sexual touching is key. Put your hand on the small of her back as you pass behind her in the kitchen. Reach down and pat her knee as you walk by her sitting in the living room. Reach over and scratch her back in the morning as she is lying in bed.

Sandi, I can't wait to incorporate the whispering thought as I stroke her cheek. My wife turns 50 tomorrow and she is freaking out about it. A lot of what you said about product marketing, and the cute dresses she sees that she wishes she could wear are SPOT on.

Jim try some of this stuff. It is like magic.