WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[DonH]

Yes, today was the big day, wasn't it? Hope we will get an update soon Jim.

[hoosjim]

Okay, I am anxiously waiting.

Hopping now, and going to bed soon-- want to go together with her when she goes, tonight, and we're both tired after two short nights' sleep-- so quick update for now, more later.

Cautiously optimistic about MC. W went through with IC (We both acvtually did 1 hour of IC) and says she will do more... in fact, MC wants us each to do NOTHING but IC for next 2-3 sessions for each of us. Says what we are doing as far as MC on our own is what she wants to be seeing, and we are talking and opening up more, so for now she wants to work with us on trying to break down some of the "individual" barriers and issues we each have... Assigned us some touching exercises, a good bit of talk about how in our sitch it IS going to feel awkward, and the exercises are a good way of both breaking the ice AND of "getting the awkwardness out" or "containing" it to the more deliberate setting, which, by comparison, will make the more natural, spur of the moment touching (which i am not holding back on) seem more natural... and i think i kind of followed that.

Talked alot about W's "good girl/ bad girl" dichotomy, the pressure she puts on herself and her considering herself a bad person, and about my trust issues (and it turns out i actually have some organic trust issues and vulnerabilities that i need to work around)-- this was explored more in depth in my IC.

Also, assurances from the MC that "we are still not really all that far into this"-- a little over six months since the "A" ended, and that "it could take a while" for my W.

Also, MC asked me a lot in IC about "what i would be willing to live with" in terms of W's continued relationship with bff... and what I would be willing to "not know" about the A and still be willing to reconcile.

Much more, will try to get to in next couple of days.

[Coconut]

Also, MC asked me a lot in IC about "what i would be willing to live with" in terms of W's continued relationship with bff... and what I would be willing to "not know" about the A and still be willing to reconcile.

I'm a little dumbfounded by that question, and I am not able to figure out why she would ask you.

I can see if she talked to you about how much you want to know, walked through how once you know you can't un-know, etc., and how knowing may affect you. But I don't think you only wanting to know "this much" should be a condition of reconciliation. I also don't think that you should not ask something that you want to know, simply because you didn't outline it in your agreement up front.

Everything else seemed positive, but that one statement makes me wondering if your W is holding back from reconciliation because she isn't ready to come clean (maybe the same reason for no confession yet). Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, if she's not ready then she's not ready, but it's still positive if she is working towards getting to that point.

[hoosjim]

I'm a little dumbfounded by that question, and I am not able to figure out why she would ask you.

Context: In one of our sessions a couple of weeks back, I had said something that upset W, not exactly what, but something that W interpreted as calling into question her commitment and motivations. At that time, MC had acknowledged that I had valid concerns but that the way I asked the question to my W was "not helpful". Flash forward to Wednesday... In my IC session, I tell MC that I see the things W is doing, but that I still have scars and trigger points and that some of these are problematic but I am not always sure how to broach them with W in a way that won't cause damage or sabotage our progress or otherwise be "not helpful".

In particular, I cite W's beach trip last july immediately following a family beach trip, where she drove out to supposedly meet bff and another gf for a girls weekend. I found out shortly thereafter that OM had been at same beach at same time staying not 3 blocks away. W maintained at the time and again the one other time I brought it up, (after our big blow-up/confrontation/reset where I discovered phone, she fessed up and broke down and broke all contact with OM and plead to "work on us") that she "had nothing to say" about that and "hadn't seen" OM there. I found and still fiND it impossible to believe, given the closeness of the R between her and OM and bff that they each did not know the other was going to be there, and I find it only slightly less implausible that they did not plan to and indeed see each other while there. But W never copped to this and I gave her at least 2 or 3 chances, explicitly, and other chances implicitly. Note that that incident preceded our "reset" and her "no contact" commitment, and so would generally be covered under the umbrella of "everything that came before"

I tell IC that girls weekends are a trigger point with me, and that, in particular, if she asked to go with bff to beach this year, which I anticipate, I am not sure I could accept that... given that W has not come clean about last years' trip. I remind IC that i value my wifes recent openness with me, that there is nothing W could tell me about the A that occurred in that pre-reset timeframe that would affect my desire to reconcile, and that when my W DID tell me gard or difficult things or confess "wrongs" to me, especially difficult ones, that there were few things that built more trust in me for her. However, conversely, W's failure to confess this one particular incident was troubling to ne, that i kept thinking about it, and that it would definitely become a big button pusher for me if W wanted to go meet bff at beach this year. IC said it is right and normal for me to have concerns, that, AFAIK, w was NOT going to try to go to beach this year, but, if she proposed that in future, I would have to decide WON I could live with her answer if she continued to deny any knowledge or contact during that July beach weekend. Additionally, given that, she said I should think then, as I always should, whether or not asking that question was liable to help or hurt our reconciliation efforts and weigh that against my own unease and piece of mind. She (MC) never advised me to not bring up issues or problems I had, thst i had yo be trur to myself and who i am, but just to 1) consider the impact before I do so, 2) don't bring such things up in anger, but consider the best way to do so if I do bring them up and 3) guage/evaluate the results afterwards.

Generally speaking, she wants us focused on the future and moving forward and what a successful reconcilliation would look like for us and focused on particular goals... colored and informed of course by what came before, but she wants primary focus on where we are going. This does not mean, she was quick to add, burying the past.

[sandi2]

I can't help but be hopeful, since she agreed to IC. The MC/IC is sort of a mediator between the two of you. I can see how that would be beneficial.

Your W may have already told the IC about the beach trip, and that could be why she is asking you these questions. For example, if your W and OM had sex......do you want to know the worst, or could you live happier without knowing? How would it affect your interactions with your W? How would it affect your attitude and feelings toward her? I doubt you would really know, until it happens.

In my case, my H had read my computer conversations to the OM. And they were more than just a little steamy! He said his chest hurt like a heart attack. And, his health did start going downhill afterwards. I won't lie, it was hard for me to look at him, knowing that he had read everything. I wish with all my heart he had not seen it, but most of all, I wish I had never written it. As Coconut said, it can't be unseen or unheard once it's out there.

I don't think I will ever forget a LBW that was here a short time. (However, I have forgotten her name). Her H had an affair, and he ended it and reconciled with the W. She wanted to know everything about the A, and he agreed to answer all of her questions. But after she heard it, then she couldn't let it go. Her head was filled of images of her H and the OW. No matter what we said, she just couldn't deal with it. The affair was over, her H was back home, but she was the one who was tearing them apart at that point. (Some may say, no it was the H's actions that tore them apart, but you know what I mean). She left the board and we never heard anymore. It just seemed like a very sad ending, to me.

Perhaps your W feels you could not get past it, if you knew everything. She may see it as a no-win answer that will cause more damage. From what you've said about her, I can see her rationalizing how it would be a back set, and how it would be best to just press forward. IDK, I'm only guessing, but I feel that the counselor either knows....... or else she uses this line of questioning with every couple healing from an affair. And it makes sense that she would use the same format when approaching this subject.

I think you've thought about this a lot. You are the only one who knows what you can live with.......and it not affect your peace and happiness in your MR. The counselor is a professional, and based on what she has seen to be successful or failure, could be her purpose for focusing on the future instead of opening up what has already happened.

Well, I've used a lot of "maybes" today. I don't seem to be offering much, but I wanted to respond to your update. ((hugs))

[hoosjim]

Your W may have already told the IC about the beach trip, and that could be why she is asking you these questions. For example, if your W and OM had sex......do you want to know the worst, or could you live happier without knowing? How would it affect your interactions with your W? How would it affect your attitude and feelings toward her? I doubt you would really know, until it happens.

IDK. I mean, I think I could deal with the physical infidelity more than I could deal with losing her heart. I know, I know, they go hand in hand, but... I remember from last Spring, fairly early after my discovery of the A, when I was still spinning, trying to find my footing, fairly unsure of what W was doing and where, and at one point I had a dream about her and OM-- They were somewhere on a boat, and I was there, though in that way that you are sometimes in a dream where you are a "third person", like, watching a movie and not actually there, and I witnessed them in a very tender moment, not sex, but where it was clear they were "in love" or something like it-- and that messed me up for days. Definitely moreso than the thought of them just sleeping together. Which gave rise to the question I asked my wife on 3 or 4 occasions not long after in the same timeframe: "I'm not worried so much about where you are physical, but where is your heart", which she always answered the same: "Locked up in a little box..." At any rate, I think I had imagined/assumed sex between them at some point, and certainly the things I did hear them saying to each other were descriptive of that and bad enough... I just think the idea of her falling for him as her "soulmate" and running off with him would have been even worse. Then again, I was certain at the time of BD that they had not slept together, and I have no hard evidence that they ever did after that, though there certainly was opportunity. IDK... Trying to be as objective as possible, it probably would affect me and make it harder... I still hang on to certain things as bad memories that make if difficult to enjoy certain things or to be certain places because of associations with OM. Knowing they "did the deed" might very well make it hard for me to, um... do the same. But, like I said, if she asks to go to the beach with bff... Im not sure I will be able to say, "sure, go ahead" and not freak out a little.

Anyway... Some other tidbits from Friday's intensive sessions:

-- First two hours were joint, and we spent a lot of time looking into our respective pasts for trigger points and pre-dispositions that might affect how we interact with each other. Point was to get us more intimate with each others' pasts/memories/families/deep-dark-experiences/etc, to try to understand what made the other person tick, how best to relate/communicate with them and how best not to. Also to look for things (I think, and this is just me based on readings MC has had us do) that might have predisposed us and our marriage to an affair. MC used an exercise for this, like a bubble or egg chart that involved us picturing traumatic or impressionable moments from our early lives up until and including approximately college, dealing primarily with our families and how we were raised. Major conclusions were that trust and breaking of trust played a big role in my formative years, that trust and friendship and fellowship and family are extremely important to me... but at the same time that the flip-side of that, the "yang" if you will, is that I do not tend to trust easily and that I am prone to suspicion and cynicism. (I identify so closely with wolves for a reason-- that is the same yin/yang of that creature.) For W, it was that, due much to her upbringing, she puts almost incredible pressure on herself to "do the right thing" and to be "the good girl" even though she has some "bad girl" gravitations/urges. MC was quick to point out that the label she puts on "good girl"/"bad girl" are not necessarily apt, but are colored by the fairly strict, puritanical upbringing she received, and that W was very quick/prone to label herself "bad" or a "failure" or the like-- which was very helpful and insightful and explained a lot of the marital friction my W had previously experienced where any time I questioned or second guessed her she would get very angry/defensive and consider it an attack. She doesn't like to be "wrong" about anything because the consequences of being "wrong" even in discreet instances are that she is a "bad person". Or something like that.

--MC wants us to keep doing weekly "check ins" with each other, at a set time/place (NOT the bedroom) and not to exceed 30 minutes, to discuss how we think the MR is doing over the previous week, address any concerns, and try to cooperate and goal-set on any problems. She also wants us to do a couple of touching exercises she gave us (which I discussed above) and also to read through a workbook on affair recovery she had previously given us and pick out the exercises we thought might still be helpful (though many of them, she thought, we will already have addressed.) Other than that, she was happy with how we were engaging each other at the moment (also to keep making social/fun time for each other a regular and frequent event), and wanted to focus on IC for each of us for a couple of weeks.

--My IC consisted of me talking to MC about things I was still struggling with, mostly trust-related and some described above. Big points were to be thoughtful and deliberate when broaching sensitive/painful subjects, to be true to who i am and open to discussing things as a general rule, especially if it is something very important or hard for me (though she is always there as an IC for me to call and bounce things off of first) and to always gauge my W's responses and make note of them for future reference in best way to engage with her.

--Also in IC, MC agreed with the strong/dominant male model being a good one, that that is probably what W had herself been hinting at as being attractive, but that she did not particularly like the "Shades of Grey" movies as a model for that as they were damaging to women. (The MC is a Christian marriage/Sex therapist, for color). She was encouraged, though, that W did not seem to think too much of the movies as a whole, other than her interest and insight into why so many women were drawn to them.

--As mentioned, focusing on the future, what a "good marriage" for us would look like and shooting for that.

--Also IC, re: my wifes body image: Do not contradict or argue with her, but you can let her know it "bothers you" when she talks that way... that I can say things like "it bothers me because I can see that you believe that and that it makes you upset, but I wish that you could see what I see when I look at you."... Avoid discussing particular "trouble spots" that she is particularly sensitive about (with W it is her "belly")... try to recognize and find ways to compliment her "whole" beauty, and make her feel beautiful by the way you treat her and approach her as well. Also that women need to be told/reminded often (though not sure this necessarily applies to my W, though it sure as heck worked for OM.)

--IC , also... Said I should be taking lead and "pursuing"... finding fun things to do, even taking lead on getting her/us to counseling. Another area was in getting a new mattress (which we need but which W has balked about going shopping for).. Said I should just find a moment when we are out, things are going good, and take the lead on it: "Look, a mattress store, come on let's go look" and take her hand and drag her along...

Those were the high points. The four hours really went by fast. W still did some crying, particularly when talking about being "bad" and a "failure" and "letting people (particularly her parents) down" and, even moreso, that she knew her parents would be hurt that she never talked to them about these things... that she felt she couldn't trust her parent's response to them... and that she wasn't sure she could ever bring up any of that to them now for that reason, even as she knew they would still love her. (Example she gave was when she brought home her African-American BF in college--she, we, are both caucasion-- and her Dad just turning his back and giving both the silent treatment and how devastating that was for her-- but the hurt of disappointing them or letting them down was intense.) This is something MC said we both have in common, and that has been a problem in our MR, that we both worry excessively about other people's (particularly each others') reactions to things we might say to each other and, as a result, end up NOT saying them and NOT confiding in and NOT leaning on each other.

[hoosjim]

Also, in terms of fun stuff-- V-Day date went well. Nice cozy restaurant. Turned out she knew the chef(!) who was a patient at the clinic she works at, so that was cool. I got chauffeured luxury SUV to take us there, with champagne (stretch limo was a little over the top for the casual place we were going, so gonna keep that one in my pocket for a five-star dinner at some point) and she was plenty surprised... kept doing double takes at each new surprise, the car, the champagne. We snugged a bit in bed that night.

I was working out on Friday night in basement and she came down, dressed an made up to KILL... and said "why aren't you ready, we're going to miss all the music?" So, of course I went upstairs and showered quickly and came along. A fun, but somewhat typical night out for us... She still wont' dance with me, not sure what's up with that. She said the one time a few weeks ago "If you're not gonna ask me to dance, im just gonna go out there myself" but the three times I have asked since she has just said "no" or, "no, not now".

This evening she was going to get her passport, so I had to tell her where we were going in May for her birthday (Cancun). She has kept asking, so she is interested, but she was a bit downcast "I only have two and a half months to get ready, I'll never be able to wear my cute spring/summer clothes by then".

That's basically everything for now. This the first "early Friday" for her that she hasn't gone out but just came home.

Fire away! (Am I "piecing" yet? Seems like maybe, but still unsure.)

[DonH]

I for sure think you are piecing. I also want to take this opportunity to proclaim the fact that I called it months ago! Lol. I'm not always right about this stuff and even more rarely go on a limb and predict it, but months ago I said I thought your W was coming back and was trying / even though some, even a few of our rock stars here, didn't see it or were not so sure.

I've had a good feeling about your sitch for a while now and think you've got a real shot.

Now, I have to say I have the same sense, same gut feeling about my next comment. I hope this time I'm wrong and only say this so you are prepared. I think your W was intimate with OM. Did they have intercourse sex, not sure but there is no way they just talked about it. At very least they kissed and touched. Oral is also likely if not actual sex. Your W may never admit it for the same reasons she's feeling she's already let others down, including you. It would just be odd that all of this went on, meeting while away, etc. and not have gone beyond hanging out. I just don't buy it. I also don't think it happened a lot or often but I, betting it happened. Further, I think she has confessed this to your C or the C suspects it herself. That's why she's asked what she's asked.

I hope that's not a deal breaker for you, even if I am correct and it is true. So very few of us even got the chance you are getting. It's still going to be a long road home, but I really do think you are firmly on the road and W is with you more and more everyday!

[sandi2]

Oh good, more update. I thought surely there was more to come!

IDK. I mean, I think I could deal with the physical infidelity more than I could deal with losing her heart. I know, I know, they go hand in hand,

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think they do go hand in hand, except in really healthy relationships. That's why some EA's can last a long time without having the skin on skin sex act. It plays to the emotional needs, rather than the physical. But I like what you said about dealing with a PA better than losing her heart. I find that to be very sweet (for lack of a better description ATM) and tender.

I asked my wife on 3 or 4 occasions not long after in the same timeframe: "I'm not worried so much about where you are physical, but where is your heart", which she always answered the same: "Locked up in a little box..."

If the IC can help her figure out what this ^^^^^^^ means, then I'll bet there will be real growth in the MR. There is something deep in that statement, "locked up in a little box".........what is the secret behind those words? It sounds as if she has a lot of trust issues, too. She is afraid to give her heart to anyone, so she keeps it locked up in a little box. (I should have gone into psychology.........not b/c I am smart about it, but b/c I find it so interesting).

If both of you are afraid to trust........then I am surprised there are not more problems in the MR. It may have a lot to do with how much or little she tells you about the A. So far, it has been very little that has actually been discussed, right? She may not believe you could completely forgive her........or if it were reversed, she could forgive you of the same actions.

For W, it was that, due much to her upbringing, she puts almost incredible pressure on herself to "do the right thing" and to be "the good girl" even though she has some "bad girl" gravitations/urges. MC was quick to point out that the label she puts on "good girl"/"bad girl" are not necessarily apt, but are colored by the fairly strict, puritanical upbringing she received, and that W was very quick/prone to label herself "bad" or a "failure" or the like-- which was very helpful and insightful and explained a lot of the marital friction my W had previously experienced where any time I questioned or second guessed her she would get very angry/defensive and consider it an attack. She doesn't like to be "wrong" about anything because the consequences of being "wrong" even in discreet instances are that she is a "bad person". Or something like that.

Interesting, and it makes sense. Is your W the first born child? (The birth order of the children is an interesting subject). Maybe I brought this up in the past. Anyway, It is often the traits of a first born child to try very hard to please their parents. First born children are more likely to be the "good son or daughter", whereas their sibling might be the "problem child". If she raised in a very strict or religious environment......or if her parents tended to be critical, it could cause her some internal conflict.

When I was growing up, I was often told I needed to be an example for others. This was mostly related to the religious upbringing. Back then, the term "role model" was not used, or I didn't hear it. I also grew up when it still taboo to lose your virginity before your wedding, and mothers would stress more to the D about the importance of being a good girl, than actually talking to them about sex. So, I can identify with your W in some ways. I didn't have a problem being a good girl, maybe b/c I didn't have urges.....lol. I was a good girl right up till I had an A!

I also understand her not wanting her parents to know anything about her feelings or the A, etc. It killed me that my mother knew. When she passed away, it pulled up a lot of guilt. And then when my daughter passed away.....the same thing again. B/c I felt I had disappointed them greatly. I didn't doubt they loved me, but I was never able to get beyond the feeling I had failed them as a a Christian daughter and Christian mother. That may not make sense to some people, but that's the only way I know how to describe it. I could not help but question if their respect for me was gone. Even when you know you are loved and forgiven by your family, it is hard b/c I think there is a part down deep inside that you just can never quite forgive yourself.

I even went to an IC after I ended my A. The first thing she told me was that I had done nothing wrong. I did not agree, and I did not return.

Also IC, re: my wifes body image: Do not contradict or argue with her, but you can let her know it "bothers you" when she talks that way... that I can say things like "it bothers me because I can see that you believe that and that it makes you upset, but I wish that you could see what I see when I look at you."... Avoid discussing particular "trouble spots" that she is particularly sensitive about (with W it is her "belly")... try to recognize and find ways to compliment her "whole" beauty, and make her feel beautiful by the way you treat her and approach her as well. Also that women need to be told/reminded often (though not sure this necessarily applies to my W, though it sure as heck worked for OM.)

Yes, I agree completely. My H would say, "You look nice". Nice?! Nice??? That's what a H calls a compliment? But I could contact the OM, and it was, "Oh baby! You are smoking hot!" Now, that's what a woman likes to hear! Not that "You look nice" cr@p.

IC , also... Said I should be taking lead and "pursuing"... finding fun things to do, even taking lead on getting her/us to counseling. Another area was in getting a new mattress (which we need but which W has balked about going shopping for).. Said I should just find a moment when we are out, things are going good, and take the lead on it: "Look, a mattress store, come on let's go look" and take her hand and drag her along...

Yes, I agree. I would be thrilled if my H would plan something for us to do. Don't wait till a special occasion. I hate for calendars to dictate when a H should buy something for his W, or take her somewhere special. It doesn't have to be that big of a deal. If he will just be in charge of planning an evening once in a while, that would be wonderful.

Like I've said before, you are still thinking like a LBH, instead of more like one in piecing. You can always pull back if you get a cool reception. If she secretly wishes to be thrown down on the bed and have your way with her........then I'll bet she wishes you would do this other stuff, too. When was the last time you called her and asked for a date? Wives love that kind of stuff. It makes us feel young, attractive, and sometimes, a little frisky. . Keep it light and fun. Don't get serious, and you won't feel the awkwardness as much.

I'm glad the counselor was pleased with your progress. Give yourself a pat on the back, b/c it has not been an easy journey getting to this place in the road. Many couples do not make it this far. I will say it again, I feel more hopeful since she agreed to go to IC.

What were her spirits like on the way back from the sessions? It must have been exhausting, after putting in that much time in one day.

[hoosjim]

What were her spirits like on the way back from the sessions? It must have been exhausting, after putting in that much time in one day.

She was quieter than the past couple of times with intensives, but, then again, this was her first real, full-length, FTF IC session. Coming in combo with the intensive joint sessions, it probably was tiring. Wouldn't say she was in a "negative" place, just not quite as talkative as she had been on the way down or in previous sessions.

We've decompressed for a couple of days, so Ima broach future scheduling of IC and the exercises today.

We had to cancel the get-away weekend planned for this weekend due to weather (we'd been going to go skiing-- I'll have to come up with something else for a coming weekend.)




Oh, and since you asked, W is, in fact, the first born of three, and she definitely has talked about feeling the pressure to be the good, responsible one and set a good example and how she feels like her sibs got away with more than she did.