Nice guy Syndrome!

[Element]

Just to clarify, did she ever give you a specified reason for wanting a separation? Did she have a just cause in wanting to S? In other words, were you mean or abusive in any way? Had you been unfaithful? Did you have an addiction? It is very important that we know the cause behind the S. And, if you don't know the cause........then that's important, too.

No to mean/abusive. No to unfaithful. No to addiction. As my telephone coach described it, our problems were of the garden variety/very common. Her reason for separating is that she felt that I stopped loving her and gave up on her. She felt that I had issues I didn't deal it, perhaps not dealing with the fact that we have 2 kids on the autism spectrum. She thinks I'm a great Dad and provider, but not a good husband. I can understand why she felt that, but I never stopped loving her or stopped being attracted to her. If anything I didn't know what to do.

Am I correct in saying you have financially supported your W during the four years of separation? I don't mean child support, but you supported her, as well. Was this the reason she was not forced to find a job to support herself, or was she not physically well enough to work?

That's accurate. She has made some money, but not enough to support herself, I've provided the finances for majority of living expenses. We had agreed that it would be best if she didn't have a full time job while the kids were young so she could be there to support them with school and therapy sessions. She also had physical restrictions in the type of work she could do or the duration of the work (physically she would burnout quickly or with physical discomfort).

Was there ever any other time you S?

No

How long was it between the time second child was born and she had the accident?

5 months

You were already experiencing intimacy problems before the accident, right? So, how well did you cope with little sex after she was left with back pain and headaches? Was her pain continuous, or occasionally?

Yes. She had a tough 2nd pregnancy. Also had a miscarriage between 1st and 2nd child. Physically she was not in good shape from the pregnancy which to me caused a lack of intimacy. To the point I could see her pain when being intimate. Then on top of that she has this accident which made things way worse.

[sandi2]

Did she ever see a specialist about low hormones? I am no doctor, but I read a lot. (Just a joke).

I never recall hearing from other women or reading anything about difficult pregnancies affecting their sex drive after the baby was born. Her hormone levels could have been too low. However, with the right meds, hormones can be helped to level out. Physical exhaustion or other issues can play a part in her interest. I do sympathize with her about back pain. I had it after my last child was born, and still do to this day. It played a big part in me not feeling like having sex, as much as my H wanted.

As for as her giving you the garden variety of excuses to S..........it makes me question what was in her heart. Holding resentment and disrespect toward her H is the foundation of a wayward mindset. Considering her physical issues, the children, and you being a man with NGS.........it's not hard to imagine how that could take seed and grow. The sad truth is that we women won't just come out and tell our H how we have resentment we can't get past. Many women won't admit they no longer feel attracted to their H, much less admit they have lost respect for him. Most women will complain, and talk about different things the H is not doing.......but they don't resolve the real issues at the bottom of it all.

I have posted a lot on the subject, so I hope I am not repeating myself.

[Element]

Did she ever see a specialist about low hormones?

Her hormones have been all over the map. She has seen a specialist recently, and she became a lot more reasonable to converse with. But this is post-separation. I should add that she also deals with ups and downs of depression and anxiety. Her anxiety got worse as we got closer to the separation date. She was falling apart in front of my eyes and I didn't know what to do to bring her back. As this was happening, it made matters even more difficult to try to improve intimacy.

As for as her giving you the garden variety of excuses to S..........it makes me question what was in her heart. Holding resentment and disrespect toward her H is the foundation of a wayward mindset. Considering her physical issues, the children, and you being a man with NGS.........it's not hard to imagine how that could take seed and grow. The sad truth is that we women won't just come out and tell our H how we have resentment we can't get past. Many women won't admit they no longer feel attracted to their H, much less admit they have lost respect for him. Most women will complain, and talk about different things the H is not doing.......but they don't resolve the real issues at the bottom of it all.

She had a lot of resentment towards me not taking her side with family issues with my mother and sisters. I tried to see things from both perspectives. I definitely know now that this was a huge mistake. At the end of the day I want to sleep with my W, not my mother/sister, so the only side to take was my Ws. I know that now, have apologized, and have made amends that she recognizes. But my W is an expert at putting up a wedge between her and anyone who wrongs her. Friends, extended family members, her immediate family, doesn't matter. She has grudges that end with her putting up a wall. She probably would have done that to me too, but I'm her kids father and she financially depends on me.

She surely still holds resentment towards me for what she says ended our marriage (even though she asked for the separation). She says we were suppose to be together, then I gave up on her. She's angry at me for that and has said that she resents me for it. She says that when we get into an argument, that I make her feel like she's nothing. She'll say this even when having a calm discussion over a contentious subject. She escalate things to push buttons, or start crying saying she's afraid I'll get angry. I feel like she goes there to manipulate the conversation from going the way she doesn't want it to go. Talks in circles to the point you don't know how you got there. Very insecure.

[sandi2]

Thanks for answering my questions. Although it may seem "after the fact", it really helps to have a better view. It sounds as if she was going through hell, with her imbalance in hormones and the depression.

She had a lot of resentment towards me not taking her side with family issues with my mother and sisters. I tried to see things from both perspectives. I definitely know now that this was a huge mistake. At the end of the day I want to sleep with my W, not my mother/sister, so the only side to take was my Ws.

This situation is one in which I can really relate. My H had a large family and they would talk behind the backs of in-laws. When anything was said about me in the presence of my H, he would not defend me, b/c he did not want to cause problems. If I had an issue with his mother, he would not support me.

In this post, I want to speak to you, and others, as if you were still living with your W. the reason is b/c I want to help someone who may find themselves in this position with their W, either now or in the future. I hope everyone who might stumble across this post will pay attention to my next sentence. Those issues you spoke about in the quote above, laid the foundation of resentment in my heart, that I could not get past in my MR.

You said you finally chose your W b/c she was the one you wanted to sleep with.......not you mother or sisters. Okay, I understand. But I don't think you understand how the W feels in this type of situation. When you married her, it was your job to protect her, as best that you could. Whenever a H chooses sides with another woman......even his mother and sisters.......the W feels betrayed and unprotected.
. And the pain is made worse b/c the betrayal came from the one who is suppose to put her over all others. Even if you don't agree with her, she needs to feel you are in her corner. Be careful how you take up for the other female in a dispute. She takes it extremely personal when you appear to side with someone else. This is true especially with younger women. When disagreeing with her means you agree with another person (especially a female), she can see it as you changing allegiance.......if you do 't handle it carefully. I don't think men see it this seriously, and although it sounds very immature on the part of the W........it is real.

For me, all I ever wanted was to be first in my H's heart. I wanted him to continue loving his mother and family members. I never expected him to forsake them. But neither did I think he would just sit there and let his mother run me down with her sharp criticism. In a sense, it's as if she became the other woman. He would go straight from work to see her, before he would go home. A part of me knew why, but the other part felt as if I was second place. Over the years, I became more resentful and I also began losing respect for him. Not all of the source of disrespect stemed from him choosing his mother over me......but the deep resentment definitely started there.

My H was not only a very "nice-guy", but he was very quite, easy-going, and a gentle soul. He always saw the good in another person. These traits were often seen as him being timid or submissive. If he didn't say anything, it was assumed that he agreed. That wasn't the case, but it was not how it appeared. I would dare guess that his mother was just as frustrated at him, as I was. After all these years, I can look back and see how he was in such a terrible position. He was in the middle of the two women he loved the most.

I told you about my personal situation b/c I wanted you to try and see her point of view. I hope you didn't tell her you chose to side with her b/c you wanted to sleep with her. That would not be wise. She doesn't want to be number one in your life b/c of sex. She wants you to love her above all others. You can still love your family, but show your loyalty to her as long you are living together.

BTW, showing that she takes priority in your heart & life, doesn't mean that you can't privately tell her when she is wrong about something. Just don't do it in such a way that sounds as if you are siding against her. That will only add gasoline to the fire, and then she'll be angry and hurt at you. Sometimes, the W can get so out of line that the H has to call her out.......even if it means she gets mad and hurt. He does it b/c he doesn't want her developing unattractive traits, or to use bullying tactics, be manipulative, etc. most of all, he can't allow her to be dominant over him. If she is the dominant one in the MR, it kills her respect and attraction for him......and that gives way to a long list of problems.

This leads me to another issue for the H who have the NGS. In his frustration of trying to just keep the peace at home.....and between his W and family.......he falls into a bad pattern of letting his W make most of the decisions. The couple make big decisions together, but her desires usually persuade the final outcome. The H thinks it is easier to just go along with whatever she wants. Therefore, he takes the passive position........which makes the nice-guy infamous. Listen up, guys. Women hate passivity in men! They love to see confident, decisive men. Even if the man doesn't decide to do what she would prefer, she likes the fact he has a mind of his own.

In all that I have previously said above, I am telling you H's to not buckle down to whatever your W wants. Yes, show her she is number one above other people, but she doesn't rule YOU. Make sense? Let's move away from the tension or conflicts within family issues. You can make decisions to do what you believe is best......or just b/c you are a man can do whatever the h@ll you want, without it causing her to feel you have betrayed her and sided with another person. As the man/husband in the M, you are suppose to be the leader. That means you need to have a certain amount of male dominance. (I won't get into the subject of male domance in the bedroom, right now). The feminine part that makes up a woman is naturally attracted to her H when he presents a level of male domance in the family and marriage dynamics. When he doesn't show male dominance, then it is left to her to lead, make decisions, and give the orders/instructions. Although she may be plenty qualified to make decisions and to lead in his absence, whenever this job defaults to her b/c her H is passive........ it kills her attraction for her him, b/c all she sees is weakness/laziness. To a woman, passivity equals weakness. It breaks down the natural order that places the man in charge. When she has to be the one to step up.......she looses respect for him. And, why shouldn't she? Her ability to feel attraction or "in love", is tied to her level of respect. So, without respect, she won't feel in love with the H that was designed to be her leader, protector, and provider. The reason so many men with the NGS experience a SSM, is b/c their W has lost respect and it affects her sexual desire.

I better stop here, b/c this post is getting too long.

[Element]

Thanks Sandi2 for your reply. Your perspective is truly enlightening. I‘ve been reading it over and over to try and understand what my W went through. And yeah, for her it was hell. For me it was too, but in the heat of the moment it came across as nagging.

I hope you didn't tell her you chose to side with her b/c you wanted to sleep with her. That would not be wise. She doesn't want to be number one in your life b/c of sex. She wants you to love her above all others. You can still love your family, but show your loyalty to her as long you are living together.

No, I never said that to her. It’s something I came across Dr.Phil said about taking sides with your mom over your W. In principle you want to continue to have a solid relationship with your W, and in such if you want to keep sleeping next to your W, you better back her up.

Today was interesting in that my W asked me this morning if I wanted to come by for dinner because my son wanted to know if I’d be by for dinner. She asked if I was available, or if I already had plans. I felt like she was really trying to see if I had plans on Valentines Day. Maybe/maybe not.

Had a session with my telephone coach yesterday. With regards to putting in place a formal S agreement, I feel it’s necessary not only for my own good, but also to give my W a dose of reality. Will provide some options including Bird’s Nest custody as its likely the best option for the kids so they’re not moving back and forth each week between mom and dad’s places. Despite the fact that she’s brought up the need to formalize the separation, i think she’ll take it extremely hard. Not sure what the reaction will be.

With regards to the OM situation, I’m keeping that to myself. Exposing may have dire consequences or embolden her to move forward with something that is built on lies. It’ll likely fizzle out over time.

[patty13]

Sounds to me like your W has the best of both worlds. After a 4 year separation, is it time to make it formal where you start paying child support and she has to meet her own financial needs? She has never really had to face any of the consequences of her actions. She has all the control and you still carry everyone.

I am glad your telephone coach suggested something similar.

[AnotherStander]

With regards to putting in place a formal S agreement, I feel it’s necessary not only for my own good, but also to give my W a dose of reality.

Your actions need to be solely focused on doing what's right for you and the kids. Don't do anything hoping it'll wake your W up, or snap her out of it, or give her a "dose of reality". Because it probably won't, and that'll just leave you disappointed and wondering if you are doing the right thing. If you feel an S is appropriate at this time (who would blame you after a 4 year separation) then by all means proceed. But don't be surprised if your W welcomes the notion of taking this step to end things permanently.

With regards to the OM situation, I’m keeping that to myself. Exposing may have dire consequences or embolden her to move forward with something that is built on lies. It’ll likely fizzle out over time.

What would you be "exposing", that a woman that has been separated for 4 years finally went out on a date? I doubt anyone would find that shocking or surprising. It's not your job to do that anyway, people will find out. You don't need to be the messenger, that just makes you look like the petty one.

[sandi2]

Well, it's your business and your life, of course, but I have to ask why you would want to set up the bird nesting arrangement. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the reason you were staying with your parents was b/c you could not afford to pay for two separate places. What if she doesn't work enough to pay her share of the expenses? Here's the thing. You will be sharing both places with her. You may not be together at the same time, but you will still be sharing dwelling places. You'll be there with her personal, intimate belongings, and seeing traces of what she did while you were gone. She will probably be dating someone, may even have friends over......maybe someone you don't know anything about. So, are you really prepared to share two living spaces with her? How well do you think you'll be able to detach when you cannot escape from from seeing traces of her everywhere you try to have space for yourself? Do you follow what I am saying here?

You spoke of her options being limited, so are you considering this as an option for her? How long do you think this type of arrangement will hold? I have a hard time understanding how it will benefit you, or how this helps the situation. Would it not be better for one of you to have your own place, instead of sharing both places? I get what you mean about the kids, but realistically, the parents are not going to continue to nest until the kids go off to college. One of the parents, and likely both of them, will eventually live with someone new, if they don't reconcile. I'm just throwing this out there so you will see other view points before making a decision.

Speaking of detaching, as much as you are over at the family home, I kind of doubt you are anywhere close to emotionally detaching from your W. I may be mistaken, but it's a wild guess. There are a lot of times you stick around to have dinner with them. IMHO, it would be good to decline most of those invitations.......due to having other plans (GAL). If you are going to be a separated couple, maybe it's time to start playing the part more. Don't be so available to her needs all the time. You need to get busy GAL.

Have you seen anyone since the breakup? Do you currently do anything with your buddies, or engage in activities where you will meet new people? Do you have a hobby or are you involved in a sport or activity that takes up part of your free time?

I understand you wanted things to get so much better that she would ask you to move back home. It sounds as if she likes your company/ friendship.......else she would not ask you to stay for dinner as often. Do you agree? She just hasn't had the desire to have a more intimate relationship with you, from all appearances. And, as far as you can determine, she is not doing anything specifically to improve that status, right?

Don't underestimate how effective it could be when she suddenly doesn't have you around all the time. When you don't accept every invitation, or go running when she snaps her fingers.......and when you are busy GAL.......it could make a difference in how both of you feel. One thing is for sure......what you've done the past four years has not changed her decision. So.........you need a new plan.

[Element]

Well, it's your business and your life, of course, but I have to ask why you would want to set up the bird nesting arrangement. Maybe I misunderstood, but I thought the reason you were staying with your parents was b/c you could not afford to pay for two separate places. What if she doesn't work enough to pay her share of the expenses? Here's the thing. You will be sharing both places with her. You may not be together at the same time, but you will still be sharing dwelling places. You'll be there with her personal, intimate belongings, and seeing traces of what she did while you were gone. She will probably be dating someone, may even have friends over......maybe someone you don't know anything about. So, are you really prepared to share two living spaces with her? How well do you think you'll be able to detach when you cannot escape from from seeing traces of her everywhere you try to have space for yourself? Do you follow what I am saying here?

Those are very good points. I haven't had a lot of time to think it all through. In fact I had never heard of a bird nesting arrangement before until my coach mentioned it as an option that is least disruptive to the children.

You spoke of her options being limited, so are you considering this as an option for her? How long do you think this type of arrangement will hold? I have a hard time understanding how it will benefit you, or how this helps the situation. Would it not be better for one of you to have your own place, instead of sharing both places? I get what you mean about the kids, but realistically, the parents are not going to continue to nest until the kids go off to college. One of the parents, and likely both of them, will eventually live with someone new, if they don't reconcile. I'm just throwing this out there so you will see other view points before making a decision.

Thank you for your perspective, its a very good point. Ideally I would like to have my kids with me equal time, but this would require having a another place to live with 3 bedrooms, unless the kids share a room. I haven't gone through the financial viability of that yet. Some of the financial restrictions we had have subsided significantly now, and this may be an option I can play with. I'd prefer not to start our separation agreement with the sale of our family home until we're certain there will be no reconciliation. To date, neither one of us has asked for a D.

Speaking of detaching, as much as you are over at the family home, I kind of doubt you are anywhere close to emotionally detaching from your W. I may be mistaken, but it's a wild guess. There are a lot of times you stick around to have dinner with them. IMHO, it would be good to decline most of those invitations.......due to having other plans (GAL). If you are going to be a separated couple, maybe it's time to start playing the part more. Don't be so available to her needs all the time. You need to get busy GAL.

Agreed, that's where my heads at and I've been doing that. But no, you're right, I'm not emotionally detached from her, and it seems to me the more I pull back, the more she pulls me back in.

Have you seen anyone since the breakup? Do you currently do anything with your buddies, or engage in activities where you will meet new people? Do you have a hobby or are you involved in a sport or activity that takes up part of your free time?

I have not seen anyone/dated anyone since the breakup. I do play sports twice a week. I'm now back in the gym twice a week and go swimming twice a week as well. I've made effort to reconnect with a couple of my buddies in the evenings. I've planned a trip with one of my friends this fall, and have made other plans to travel for sporting events. There are a group of colleagues I work indirectly with that get together for socials about once a month. Last night I was out and one lady was hitting on me pretty hard and wants to get together again soon.

I understand you wanted things to get so much better that she would ask you to move back home. It sounds as if she likes your company/ friendship.......else she would not ask you to stay for dinner as often. Do you agree?

100% agree ... she's said as much that she likes having me around.

She just hasn't had the desire to have a more intimate relationship with you, from all appearances. And, as far as you can determine, she is not doing anything specifically to improve that status, right?

That's correct. I believe she's afraid that if she let me back in, things would go back to the way they were, and she'd be emotionally destroyed

Don't underestimate how effective it could be when she suddenly doesn't have you around all the time. When you don't accept every invitation, or go running when she snaps her fingers.......and when you are busy GAL.......it could make a difference in how both of you feel. One thing is for sure......what you've done the past four years has not changed her decision. So.........you need a new plan.

Thank-you Sandy ... you're a godsend!

[Element]

Your actions need to be solely focused on doing what's right for you and the kids. Don't do anything hoping it'll wake your W up, or snap her out of it, or give her a "dose of reality". Because it probably won't, and that'll just leave you disappointed and wondering if you are doing the right thing. If you feel an S is appropriate at this time (who would blame you after a 4 year separation) then by all means proceed. But don't be surprised if your W welcomes the notion of taking this step to end things permanently.

I get what you’re saying, and yes I don’t have grand illusions that she’ll snap out of it because I’m pulling back and GAL. On the other hand I recognize what I’ve been doing has not been working to repair the MR. After all we’ve been thru I don’t know how I’d respond if she were to try and get me back. I certainly would not fall back into her arms as I really believe she has a lot of issues she needs to work thru. But ya, I recognize that I have not properly detached and she still has a place in my heart. Marriage means a lot to me, I’m a long term thinker. I would not outright dismiss the chance to try again knowing now what not to do.

What would you be "exposing", that a woman that has been separated for 4 years finally went out on a date? I doubt anyone would find that shocking or surprising. It's not your job to do that anyway, people will find out. You don't need to be the messenger, that just makes you look like the petty one.

I get your point, and if she was just lining up a date, my reaction would be quite different. For one, she’s been secretly been carrying on with a married man who has 3 kids. Yes, I understand her secrecy around this given that people may judge her as a home wrecker. How often she has hooked with him I’m not too sure, but they definitely have had some infrequent hookups over the last 6 months or so. Just last week when speaking to my W she tells me that she hasn’t and isn’t seeing anyone, and doesn’t think anyone would want to be with her the way she is. And ya, she’s got a lot of baggage for someone actually an R, not just a tryst. She’s very attractive and has no problem getting men’s attention, but I know she’s not the tryst type, she yearns for R and that’s where all the other crap comes out of the closet. So anyways, she’s lying to me about this, and ya I’m being judgmental in that it’s with a guy who is married with kids, because I just don’t think that’s right. But no, I’m not going to expose that I’m aware to her, or confront the OM or OM’s W. through this forum and talking with others there’s a whole slew of reasons not to do that. One I had not considered was what if the OM or OM’s W goes nuts and comes after my W or my family. Who the hell knows. I see how stupid that would be of me to start a series of reactions that may be devastating. But it’s funny how thinking thru these things messes with your head. At one point I was thinking I could snail mail an anonymous “somebody’s been a bad boy” letter to this guy. But I realize that’s just stupid jealously on my part and does nothing for me to detach from her, in fact does the opposite. So I’m thankful for all the sound advice posted here.