You can't treat your W like a kid. And that's what you did with those demands.
You told her to leave her phone unlock and limit the amount of time on the app, what are the consequences to her not doing those things. What are you going to do?
You are treating her like she is 14. You can't make demands and expect a person not to get defensive.
A better way to approach a situation where you find something disrespectful is to state what you will not live with in the M and what you are willing to do if she goes against that (boundaries not demands). Read up on boundaries and what the entail.
In other words, her using an app doesn't hurt you physically, so what kind of boundary can you create out of her using an app?
Those are questions you have to ask yourself before you go down the road of demanding something.
The best thing you can do in this situation, is detach and become a person only a fool would leave. Show her a man that respect himself. IMO you trying to force her to do those things makes you look weak.
No more demanding. Have your W decided she wants to be in the M? If not you need to detach, GAL, and do 180s. If you were demanding before than you have to 180 those situations. Stop pursuing her. Pull back and let go. Give her space.
She has created an alternate reality of the M, the only way for that to change is if you give her space and time to clear her head. You have to let go for that to happen.
Get ready for hardwork, prepare yourself for the roller coaster ride.
Onward and Forward.
Thank you Joe. I am 7 1/2 weeks in and it feels like it is just getting started.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I remember our first Valentine's Day as a married couple. I bought her a gift, took her to a very expensive, fancy restaurant. Really made it a special night for her.
That night she made it clear she wasn't in the mood.
It's interesting the way you phrase this. As if you [i]deserved[i] physical intimacy after doing all that effort. Even though you say that the night was for her, you ended the night disappointed because you didnt get what you want. To me, this is typical "nice guy" behavior...which really isnt all that nice. It's putting uncommunicated expectations in place and then getting mad when they arent met. Have you looked into these tendencies?
I get that physical intimacy is an important part of a marriage. And I know MWD has written books on working through those types of issues. Maybe consider reading those as well.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
As you can see, overtime I began to pull back the non-sexual affection, reassurances, etc. Overtime I fell into a place where I was hurt, angry, frustrated and resentful.
Right. You punish her for not meeting your expectations....in that hope that it.....makes her WANT to be more intimate with you? Do you see how backwards that logic is?
Originally Posted By: Steve85
The problem for me is she response positively (I know I shouldn't be reading her reactions) to both the Mort Fertel methods (talk charges, touch charges, date nights) as well as the 180 method. So it is confusing to me to try to tread. I think next week I will renew my efforts at pulling back, letting go, GAL, and moving on.
You have got to pick something and stick to it. How can you possibly merge a method which sounds like pursuit with a different method focusing on stopping pursuit? I dont know anything about the other author, but my feeling is that if she is not interested in being with you right now, then increasing your touch and talking with her is only going to push her away.
She is a runner. She will run away from conflict and people she disappoints every chance she gets. She doesn't handle stress well, and feels that once she disappoints a person there is no way to rebuild solid footing. Which is a lot of our problems. I think part of it is that she holds grudges herself. So she assumes others can't get over past grievances either. (I know, antithetical to Christian doctrine of sin and forgiveness.)
I do not recommend that you out your W to the church.......(unless she has a role of leadership, then you might have to approach the pastor to talk to her). I don't think outting her to the church, will solve any of the M problems.
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She does seem to have recognized her problem and does seem to want to correct it. However, she still has this tug of wanting what she wants, regardless of whom it hurts. Wayward for sure. I think I caught it before it was full on scorched earth, but she has set up so many fantasy for what her future life can be that she can't seem to want to face the truth of reality.
It's the taboo that was alluring to me. As I said, I had always been a very good girl growing up. I was a virgin when I married, and didn't drink or smoke......or even say ugly words. I was very devoted to the Christian way of life. It was when I was feeling at my lowest in the MR, that I stuck my toe over the line, and that's all it took to suk me into activity that thrived on lust. Feeling so numb had left me vulnerable, but in spite of the meds and the other conditions.......I still knew what I was doing. I had free will, and I chose to do what I did. But yes, I found what I had previously seen as a "bad girl", very alluring. In time, however, the truth that been instilled in my heart spoke to me. One night I felt desperate to talk to someone about my feelings. I started searching the Internet for a Christian chat room. I had never been on a forum in my life. I found one, but I guess the timing was wrong, b/c they were cutting up and not taking me seriously. So, I checked out and searched some more. That's when I found the DB board. I wanted people to talk straight to me. I did not need cuddling, but I wanted someone to understand.
When your W reaches the place that she is open to receiving information, then she can learn about what is happening to her....and why.....and what she needs to do...... and what will happen if she chooses not to take the advice. Not as a threat, but just to educate. It is her decision in how she chooses to go. I am not allowed to give the name of the book, but I read a non-religious book written about women's infidelity. It really got my attention, enough that it sort of scared me at the possible final results for a woman staying on the course I was headed.
Her "willingness" is more important than her "want to" at the present time. If she is willing to get the information, then there is hope something will open her eyes. I am not referring to Christian material, necessarily. Most people who are engaged in this type of activity puts up a wall toward anything relative to "thou shalt" and "thou shalt not", b/c they are in rebellion. Your W is rebelling against her MR. For me, reading secular information worked well, b/c I didn't have the walls up as much.
I first learned how affairs (EA, PA, or IA) are addictive, and how it releases brain chemicals similar to what we felt when we fell in love. The body responds in the same way. It's like a high you get from drugs, and it is addictive. So, once the high dies down, you have to make contact with the source that gave you such a great feeling. If you stop the affair, and/or end all contact with the source.......you will experience strong cravings/desire to make contact again. You need a fix! If you don't get a fix, you will experience withdrawals. If I had not received this information before I ended my A, I don't know if I would have made it through the withdrawals. It was terrible, and my depression only got worse. But, I did get through it, thanks to God and the great DB mentors I had back then.
Some women may be too reluctant to even read about the information. If the H pushes it on her, she may resist b/c she is rebelling against him. So, he is in a delicate position. And some women are so hard hearted that they seem to not care if there are devastating consequences for her.....or anyone else. These are the most difficult to reach or to deal with, b/c of their hardness. And again, these hard women are usually the ones who will not be receptive to any form of shaming, brow beating, threats, or preachy type lectures. They will not be pressured into reading/hearing information......or to change their ways. They know they are wrong, so telling them they are bad/wrong does no good. But if they feel they are choosing to read an article, or whatever, b/c they are curious or interested.....then I think there is more hope of it impacting them.
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but she has set up so many fantasy for what her future life can be that she can't seem to want to face the truth of reality.
Fantasy was my hardest part to overcome. So, how does one fight another person's fantasy? The only way is to use reality. Life will have to provide most of it. But, there are a few things you can do, also. We can discuss it, as you post more.
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And the turning 50 next month seems to be a big sticking point for her as well.
Well, society doesn't help us with the age thingy. Is she one who lets it really bother her, or is more about her looks showing her age? Does she talk a lot about life being short? Has she lost someone in death recently? Someone really close? Is there any event you know about that could have triggered this sudden change in your W?
My suggestion for now, is to stop using the term MLC in connection with her. Just b/c she is turning 50 does not mean she is having a MLC. Just b/c she's having a crisis does not mean it is the same as a MLC is defined. Maybe that makes no sense to you. She might actually be having a MLC. IMHO, I think most MLC for women are related to a childhood trauma that was never dealt with properly. So, unless you know of some life changing event that took place when she was growing up........I wouldn't jump into diagnosing her with MLC just yet.
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Sometimes I wonder if it is too much to overcome? Anyone know how long a typical female MLC lasts?
Let me put it this way. You had better hope you are dealing with a wayward W! Waywardness is a choice. It is based on resentment, disrespect and rebellion. Her own selfishness and anger motivates her behavior. (That is a simple description). For a woman in true MLC, it is more complicated. It usually involves some psychological issues connected to her past. The crisis can be triggered by the death of someone close, or some other event (like facing her own mortality) that causes the unresolved issues to influence her current behavior. The crisis can last for years and then go into replay. I hope for everyone's sake, especially hers, that it is not a MLC. If turning 50 brings about this type of crisis, then I suggest she gets phscological treatment as soon as possible. Only, she probably won't agree.
The major differences I see in the two type of crisis: Waywardness is an issue with the heart. MLC is an issue with the past. One has actions based on anger, the other has actions based on fear. That's JMHO.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
You make really good points. Yes I am guilty of thinking that if I did nice things to make her feel loved that it would result in intimacy. But that is because that is what she told me! Yes maybe I telegraphed that and she knew the purpose behind it. I've learned over the years to try to show her love just because I love her, not because I want sex. But I was 30 years-old in the story I told, been married for almost a year and was averaging < 1 time per month of sex. I was admittedly horny.
On your last point, I think my situation is a little different than most in that she is 50% wanting out and 50% wanting to stay. When I pull back the 50% wanting out draws towards me, but the 50% wanting to stay is hurt. When I am affectionate, attentive, and present the 50% wanting out is pushed away, the 50% wanting to stay is comforted and assured.
My wife is a bit atypical, and maybe it is because I caught it before her heart was completely gone. When I confronted her about the EA in Dec, she said she wanted a divorce. I begged, pleaded, reasoned, all the things you are supposed not to do. The next day she was very affectionate to me (Christmas Eve). Sitting close, holding my hand, rubbing my back, putting her arm around me. Later when I pointed this out she said it was because she could tell I was hurting.
By dec 26th I had read MWD, and others, and I started letting go. Immediately she started to hedge on her decision. She said at one point "I was hoping to wait until after the holidays so I could see if the excitement of getting a job, getting my own apartment and moving out would subside."
So you can see I am in a merged situation where neither tactic really work 100%, but they both seem to work.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
I won't out her to the church mainly because that would be one more barrier to reconciliation. This is also why I have not confided in any of our friends or family. I said previously that my wife is a runner. If she perceives people (church brothers and sisters, friends, family) think poorly of her she will withdraw from them. And that will be a BARRIER (not an obstacle) to her coming back. I use the term barrier very consciously here.
The good news she is open to information. Willing reading both sides of the equation. She wants to find things that tell her what she is doing is right, but those are few and far between. And she is at least absorbing that most agree that what she is doing is wrong. Not just on moral ground but also on what is best for our daughter. Once I shattered the illusion that our home life was unhealthy (and have maintained the reality that we have a good home life for 8 weeks now), she has realized that the trauma of divorce for our daughter will be similar to what she experienced with her parents (though I have never been physically abusive the way her father was to her mother).
Also, I think over time the fantasy has been fading. She had fantasy of this OM being so good for her ego. Then after he got 3 sets of pictures from her he ended the online EA. She's been very much more careful with OM2, even though he has been very pushy and suggestive. She thought she could get a work-at-home job that would pay enough to sustain her, and allow her to continue to live her double-life. She's finding that isn't as easy as she thought. The cost of housing is higher than she anticipated and that reality has set in. As well as the fantasy of the perfect, easy divorce being shattered.
The result is that she has done nothing since the middle of January to move forward with her plan of the divorce. She worked on her resume but never finished it. Researched jobs but never applied. Obviously has done nothing towards getting a divorce (other than some internet research).
As far as OM and OM2, both are losers. OM is unemployed, sits in his 81 year-old father's house and sings on karaoke apps all day. OM2 is a security supervisor (a fancy name for a security guard that has to supervise the other guards) at about ~$50k/year. Both divorced. OM2 has a kid. Neither are in a position to support a 50 year-old house wife (OM is 39, OM2 is 42), and both have girlfriends. (Note I am not belittling anyone's job sitch, just pointing out that neither of the OM are in a position to take on another dependent.)
That paragraph is very disheartening because it tells me that her lack of options is why she is still here. But if that moves us toward reconciliation than so be it.
As far as the MLC, yes she has unresolved issues. The big one being that when she was 19 she went home during a break at college. Her step-father came into her room in the middle of night, rubbed her back and asked her for sex. Her mom did nothing supportive, wanted to stay with her step-father, and asked my wife to please go back to the way things were before the proposition. Couple that with her unresolved anger at her dad (abusive to her mom, emotionally and verbally abusive to her over the years), and you can see there is definitely triggers for a MLC.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
To help with my situation I am going to take sandi2's definitions of a WW and keep the ones that apply to my situation:
*She is not the girl you married. She no longer feels the same and won't act the same. *No matter what her values and spiritual beliefs have been in the past, and regardless of the high standard of morals she held, they have temporarily vanished. For how, nobody knows. *She does not want to be fixed. Nobody can fix her, especially you. *She is in complete rebellion, and will defy you when you make demands, threats or give ultimatums. *Her heart has turned cold and selfish. All she thinks about is what makes her feel good at the moment. *You cannot change her mind, influence, convince, or sway her by talk. *Her brain has lost all capacity to use logic. Therefore, you cannot reason with her. *She is addicted to the high she gets from the A. She will do most anything to get her "fix" again. *She cannot be trusted as long as she is wayward, and until she goes through the complete withdrawal stage from OM/A. *She will cake eat whenever it suits her......if you allow it. *She wants the best part of the M and the A. She gets the H for security and OM for her emotional needs. *She will bait her H, and test him. *She will give him just enough crumbs to keep him hanging on and attached. *She keeps the M/H as her plan B, in case A/OM doesn't work out. *She will be interested in H if he detaches, acts as if he is busy, happy, moving on without her, and won't give her the details when she starts asking. *Pursuit from her H only pushes her further away. *She is living in a fantasy world. She wants the dream to continue. *She will blame her H for every thing wrong in her life. His apology does not erase her resentment. She will totally rewrite their marital history. She holds on to her anger toward him b/c it fuels her negative view of the M and justifies her present actions. * Her common sense is gone and she only operates from her emotions. *She is willing to risk everything and throw everything away for her addiction when the A is at its thickest. *She sees her H as the enemy. *She has to suffer some type of loss (due to her decisions) in order to shake her from her fantasy fog. * She is on a roller coaster and will not act the same every single day. Her emotions will be up, down, and all over the place....but never on an even keel.
Wow, couldn't delete a single one. There are some that aren't always true, but that relates more to the last point: roller coaster.
One day she behaves as if the marriage is over and she is moving on with Plan A (even though she never actually takes any tangible action towards that IE FANTASY). The next she acts like her future is with me and our daughter, and the life we've created (church, friends, activities).
So I think I will need to truly detach, but I am afraid since I was an absent husband this will backfire. Anyone ever been in my shoes? Where you were detached before all of this, so detaching further seems to be the wrong thing to do?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
sandi2, another question. I see your suggestions for dealing with a WW in an A. You don't specify what kind of A. What if it is wholly an EA, no physical contact. In fact, the OM is several states away and neither has the money or time setup meetings.
Should I still get her out of the marital BR? Should I still withdraw all the other things you suggest?
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
So I think I will need to truly detach, but I am afraid since I was an absent husband this will backfire. Anyone ever been in my shoes? Where you were detached before all of this, so detaching further seems to be the wrong thing to do?
From what I read, the majority of H's experience this concern. I feel they may not really grasp the healthy DB detaching we promote. It is not acting as if you are mad, cold, or sullen. You don't have to be physically absent to be detached. It is an attitude. It is a mindset.
I can't keep up with all the people I send a copy of my favorite version of the definition of true DB Detaching, so if I sent this previously, mark it down to my fading memory. I like this one, b/c it is short and simple. **********************************************************************************************
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures. _________________________
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Sandi, however, some of the steps you advocate (removing from the MBR, withdrawing of financial support, etc) seems more strong than the above definition of detachment.
I think if I do what you suggest in the thread I linked above then she will feel abandoned. The list you just cut and paste is absolutely something I can try and employ. It will be difficult but I can work on it.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
Just another day in limbo. She's being sweet as punch. Sits all day on her singing app. Doing nothing to proceed toward her plan. I need to start the 180.
M(53), W(54),D(19) M-23, T-25 Bomb Drop - Dec.23, 2017 Ring and Piecing since March 2018
