WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[Ginger1]

This is all very interesting stuff, but I think I might have an unpopular take on this, but I think what she did in this session showed some actual true commitment. She gave you complete transparency into her feelings about everything. She communicated honestly and directly, even if you didn't want to hear it.

She told you she doesn't contact OM, but thinks about him sometimes, but won't do anything about it. I have a spot in my heart for anyone I have ever had feelings for. My mind occasionaly thinks about some good times and I miss them. This doesn't mean that I am going back to them, I want to go back to them, or I am not happy with what I currently have. it's just memories of a time that felt good. And when things get kind of cra**y, we go back to those times in our head sometimes. What she does with those thoughts are the real deal breaker.

Also, in the same breath that you feel like she is sweeping the A under the rug, she feels like you are sweeping the lack of intimacy under the rug and how the M was that lead her to where she was. You aren't to blame for her A, that's her responsibility, but I think both areas deserve an equal amount of focus. They are both acknowledged, but in her mind she feels like the underlying problem needs to be addressed more rather than the A, and I would have to say I would have to agree with her.

Take a fever for an example. You can give Tylenol to keep breaking it, but you need to find the underlying cause to remedy that so it doesn't come back (I am nurse, so please excuse me, but this always rang with me).

Take the lead with the ring. Don't do an "if I do it, will you do it" thing. Here, be dominant, put a ring back on and see how she follows. Again, your positive action might be met with a return positive action.

I actually find this encouraging.

[sandi2]

I am going to have a longer reply to what Sandi2 posted, probably when I update after MC tonight, but I wanted to explore this particular issue, which both Sandi and Ginger have brought up-- let's call it "Dominant/Submissive" or, perhaps, "Manly Pursuit."

Perhaps we have hit you over the head too many times about pursuing. Dominance and pursuing are not the same. Pursuing is chasing someone or something that is running away from you.......or is not responding the way you desire. Dominance doesn't chase. Dominance is mainly being in charge.

There are times it definitely requires action to maintain the dominant position, but dominance doesn't chase. Dominance is seen in various areas of our society. We see it in the military, the workforce, a group of friends, schoolyards, and in families. IMHO, the dominant person has a mindset, an attitude, and a confidence that others can see. Dominant people are the natural leaders. I have seen people placed in positions of leadership, but they were more the submissive type, and therefore, failed miserably at their jobs.

So, my question here is (though the answer seems obvious): IS the draw of these movies to women that they all secretly (or not so secretly) want to, at least at times, be "submissive" to a "dominant" man sexually/romantically? Sandi sort of implies this, and it is the gist of what Ginger is saying as well. But, if so, doesn't this sort of fly in the face of the whole "non-pursuit" angle? (To which, I assume, the answer as Sandi seems to be saying is that if you are to the point of reconciling/piecing, and have been in a SSM, that the dominant/pursuing male model is actually what you want to be emulating(?))

Here again you are linking dominance with pursuing. It is not the same. Yes, women want a man who is sexually dominant. Why should it be so shocking? That is how God originally designed it. I think women are drawn to the romantic novels and movies, b/c of what is missing in their own relationships. It's nice to watch a sweet love story........equal to the Little House on the Prairie. However, these are not the type of stories that will get her blood pumping. It is reading or watching a storyline where the female character's senses are consumed by the male character. Of course he sexually dominates her! Of course that's what draws her natural feminine desire to submit to his dominance. It appeals to all straight women, IMHO, and they even enjoy reading or watching movies about it.

If a woman is sexually straight, she's not going to feel the desire to sexually submit to another woman. Neither will she feel the desire with a Beta, passive-type man........b/c he takes the submissive role. I mean, she can make the choice to submit, but that's nothing compared to a dominant male who draws her natural feminine sexual responses. That is what makes all the difference for women! When she is with her dominant male, it's as if her senses are in contol of her free will.......and he's in control of her senses. Well, that's how it sounds in the books, anyway. And, that's what draws the women, b/c that is what they dream about.

I will try to comment without getting into too long of a post, which is difficult b/c you are really talking about more than the subject of dominance in your quote above. Once a couple reconciles, and the WW is showing respectful behavior toward her H and their MR, and she is doing all she can to atone for her wayward actions.........then he has to transitition from the position of a LBH to that of a H in piecing. Which means, he is leading, not chasing. That is why it is important to know where the MR stands. Men fall into the limbo status in the MR, b/c they don't know where it stands, so they wait on their W to lead. Bad mistake. If she was wayward, then she does not need to be leading the relationship. That's one of the problems that started this whole mess.

I suppose the issue with men is that the lines get blurred between dominance, initiating sex, pursuit, sex, leadership, sex, etc. Did I mention sex? You did not develop a decade of SSM overnight, and you probably won't come back overnight. (Based on comments you've made about previously holding back from non-sexual touches, I think you might want to consider some therapy for that precise issue). There was something in you before you ever married, that held you back from non-sexual touches. Does it play a part in the SSM? IDK, but I can tell you that if she is not receiving any intentional human touch from you........I don't think your MR stands much of chance. Oh, you may continue living together, but I don't think it will ever be intimate, without you initiating human touch. You even said touch was her LL! So, in the words of 25yrsmlc....."Figure that sh't out"!

One, which she was said both then and now, is that sometimes she "likes it rough", and she would want to be just "thrown down and taken"

I really think this indicates a strong desire to be sexually dominated. I doubt that she wants to be inflicted with pain......but who knows.

I was still a teenager when I got married. I very innocent about men, and especially about sex. So, I needed my sweet, gentle, nice-guy H throughout our initial months of M life together. As I started maturing, I thought I must be frigid b/c I was not feeling sexually turned on by my H. Long story, but I found myself drawn to the books and movies, and I daydreamed about being seduced by a dominant male. I wanted my H to be more aggressive in our lovemaking. Don't get me wrong, I don't do pain.......but, I would have liked it a little rougher than just him hovering above my body and waiting on me to do the work.

Maybe your W is into role playing, IDK. My thoughts are that you don't need whips and chains to be sexually dominant. You were given a glimpse into something she craves, by her reaction to the movie. Who knows........you might be able to jump start this thing by buying a pair of handcuffs!

Seriously, your stature has nothing to do with it. I am tall, so I wanted to date guys taller than me. Perhaps that goes back to the natural desire of wanting to feel dominanted by the male. Although it is not as unusual these days, it once was very uncommon to see a tall woman with a shorter man. But hey, look at all the 5'9 to 5'10 actors who portray very masculine roles.

When I would fantasize, I would always be with a man who was much taller than me. Actually, I always wanted to be about 5'4".......so maybe I was really fantasizing about my height. But here's the thing, you or I can do nothing about our height. I can't get shorter and you can't get taller. At the end of the day, height really has very, very little to do with our attraction and sexual fulfillment with the one we are with. I sincerely believe your W's reference to her previously choosing taller guys is her expressing her need to feel sexually dominated. A tall man overshadowing a petite woman.........isn't that the picture of a type of domination? If she's tall and wants a picture of domination, she thinks she needs to get a much taller guy to fill the bill. But realistically, this is not necessary. Not if he's the man, internally, that she needs. There are a lot of tall men walking around that have no clue about things that really matter in the bedroom.........or so I've heard. Yes, we women speak in codes. I'll admit it. But it's b/c we know that the most fragile thing on earth is the male ego. So, I'm here......telling you guys what your W's won't say.

So, all this seems to be pointing to the idea that, yes, in a vacuum, this "dominant male" stance is one that my wife (and perhaps even all women) find attractive and want to see in a man. The only real question for me, then, is is the timing right for me to be more aggressive in pushing that on her? My inclination would be "yes, what have I got to lose", but would love to hear what folks have to say about all of the above.

Yes, it is time to take the dominant stance. Just please remember what I've said about starting with non-sexual touching. You need to get comfortable with it, before undertaking more intimate touching. And, then move from non-sexual to things that are considered more personal.......like touching her face, hair, neck, etc. If she does not flinch, pull away, or stiffen her body, then that means she is good. If you see this as "pursuing", then so be it. I see it as you meeting her part way, b/c she has tried reaching out to touch you. It is, also, being dominant. A dominant male is not afraid to get up close in her personal space. He doesn't have to.......but he's not hesitant to do it. This is also a move from transitioning from your position of a LBH to one in piecing..........if you believe your W is being genuine in her commitment.

She did cozy up to me on her own last night in bed.

And what did you do? Although some women just want to cuddle without it leading to sex..........I would say this is a signal from her that she wants more physical contact. How many times has she been the one to make this sort of move toward you? But what do you do, when she makes these moves? Do you respond likewise? Do you take control? Do nothing? Coming from a SSM is challenging, but someone has to make the first move. By that, I don't mean you should go from zero touching on a daily bases to fully engaging in sexual intercourse the first time your hand reaches out to her.

I think the topic of sex is on the minds of both you and your W. She wants, and probably needs, to know that she has not committed to a SSM for the rest of her life. Not being happy in the MR helped to lead her in making very bad decisions. For me, I felt like I lost my last chance at happiness when I ended my A. If she had similar feelings, then she needs encouragement by seeing that her H wants her as a woman, and as his W. She has seen she can have fun with you, now she needs to see if sex is in the near future, too. Yes, start with baby steps........but once you get to the place you feel pretty confident, then don't just stand there.......or lay there. Take control. Remember, dominance is a mindset.

So, now tell us the different ways you touched her today.

[hoosjim]

So, excellent pep talks ladies, thanks! I do tend to overanalyze sometimes, and I also in this case have been guilty of over focusing on the affair, even though it is something that obviously has to be dealt with. At any rate, I can be "that guy"... I have been in the past, after all. My confidence overall has been much better the past few months, but there is always room for improvement in how I interact with my wife, and, obviously, I can make our relationship much more rewarding, and, I think, much more fun by just embracing my confidence and going with it.

Now, a different and specific question, especially for you ladies on the board. How to handle big milestone birthdays. My wife will be 50 here in a couple months, middle of May actually. How do women look on these things for the most part? Do they not like a big deal to be made out of them because they tend to be more age sensitive? Or do they want people, particularly their husbands, to make a big deal about it? And obviously there is the overlay of my own particular situation here.

Now, the last I have heard my wife say anything about this, was about 3 months ago in the early stages of our counseling, when she said "I feel bad because I think I'd really like to do something like fly off to Cancun for a week or something on my 50th, but I don't see myself doing that sort of thing with you, I see it more with my girlfriends and I feel like normally that's something you should want to do with your husband, but I'm just having trouble seeing it right now" or something to that effect. Now, I know at that point I mentioned this conversation on my thread, and somebody, I think it was Sandi, posted that should be a red flag, and then I should be wondering or asking what it was that she couldn't do on such a trip with me that she could do with her girlfriends. Like I said, she has said nothing about that subject since, and things are obviously significantly better between us at this point than they were at that point. Reason I ask, is do want to do something significant for her, assuming that that is generally deemed a good idea for women in that situation.

I had just started thinking about what I would do, probably some sort of trip on one of the weekends right around her birthday, and she gets a text from her BFF today, saying "May 16-18 is going to be girls birthday weekend, mark your calendars." For color, both the other girls involved have birthdays within about a month to a month and a half of each other. (my wife showed me the text from BFF when it came in). I didn't say anything, except to comment that "oh your friends' birthday is in May, too, isn't it?" Which wife confirmed, but neither of us said anything else about it at that point. So now I'm like, "damn it, I should already have had something planned..." except for the fact that I have been uncertain about whether or not such plans would be welcomed based on what she had previously said.

As an additional matter, I'm really not thrilled about her having a second overnight girls weekend within a month ( they have already planned one for April to take a wineries tour by limo (bff plans all this stuff) and, obviously, overnight girls weekends with BFF have, in the past, been used by my wife as cover to see the OM. Now, I am more and more believing that she is past the phase of seeing the OM, and more willing for her to be able to go out with BFF (they actually went out last night and Ws behavior was to all apowarances exemplary) I'm just not sure I like the Dynamics of the whole situation, or of her going away twice in one month for that kind of weekend. Especially when I'd like to do something with her, my wife, to mark the occasion

So, two questions I guess: 1) should I be planning something significant for my wife's 50th, particularly under the circumstances, and, if so, what? I was honestly thinking about a getaway trip somewhere though I haven't come up with details yet. Probably a beachy destination since we both like that. 2) how should I be handling this overlay from the proposed girls weekend away. Note that wife has not said definitively yay or nay yet to that weekend. Though I am sure she would like to. She just looooves BFF... [rolls eyes]

[sandi2]

sharing her phone (and I noticed the other day when she handed me her phone to do something that it still had a lock on it-- she unlocked it for me but that lock is still activated), that the easier trust gets for me, and that that is not about beating her up for the past but rather about rebuilding our relationship and building intimacy going forward. MC kind of touched on those points but I don't think that that's what W got from me.

If I had not been on the board when I ended my A, I'm sure I would have made major mistakes during piecing. I have learned more from H's in your position, than I ever learned from my own H. However, speaking from her side......I don't think she is getting a clear picture of what you need from her to heal. And she needs to know the reason you continue (directly or indirectly) to the A is b/c it is the elephant in the room, which grows larger when she gets so defensive.

Does she really "get" why you need her to be transparent, or does she see the action as being punitive? Are you sure you really explained the reason behind transparency, or did you more or less tell her it was to earn your trust? Well, it is for that reason, too, but there is more to it. It is not a form of punishment. I can see how she could see it in connection to paying for her sin of unfaithfulness. Especially, since she is so defensive toward anyone that steps on her toes. If she is under the impression it's all about the A.....then she needs to be told that it is to help both of you, and so as to not having unanswered/unexplained "situations".

If she wants to cheat, being transparent with her phone will not stop her. She should be told it is not a means for you to control her, or take away her privacy. But at the end of the day, she should be told that transparency will help keep away a lot of demons that are ready are gobble you up the first time she is late coming home or whatever. If this is something she can do to help restore the MR, then ask her why would she not freely do it. She also needs to know it will not last forever. The quickest way for her to deal with transparency is to just be honest. When a W, especially one who is/was wayward doesn't want to show her H the phone, or she has to unlock it before handing it over to her H..........I have a big problem with it. You should have calmly asked her for the password, but she would probably have given some excuse......like, security reasons. OTOH, if she did not take a minute to scan her messages before releasing the phone to you.......all may not be completely hopeless.

IDK, if I ever have the occasion to be looking over the phone WITH her again, I might bring it up, after which I am sure she will delete it just like she did the FB messenger thread).

Why do you think you should look "with" her?

But... yes it would make things easier, though, even then, it wouldn't change some of the things she's said that give me pause.

Transparency is not a fix for either of you. It is a coping method, as you are healing and getting through the initial stages of repairing the M. My question to any WW would be, "Is it too much to ask"? IMHO, there is only one real reason a W would not want her H seeing her phone, and it is b/c she has something to hide. She may give excuses.....but her real reason is b/c she has something to hide.

I understand her resentment and defensive stand, but I also know she has to figure how to get out of it. Hopefully, the MC will help her figure it out. Anything further about intensive sessions, as suggested by your W?

[hoosjim]

I understand her resentment and defensive stand, but I also know she has to figure how to get out of it. Hopefully, the MC will help her figure it out. Anything further about intensive sessions, as suggested by your W?

Yeah, we are, as she suggested/offered, going for a full day on 2/21. Four and a half hours of intensive counselling. Some of which, she said, she would agree to do as IC.

Yes, the moment with the phone was a missed opportunity. OTOH, as you said, she is not scanning her messages before she gives it to me, so that is something, although i do know that she has deleted some texts between her and bff... at bff's insistence, but that could be anything, including about bff's ongoing divorce from my own best friend... though I HAVE told my W that i dont think we should have any secrets from each other...about anything.

Her initial excuse, way back when, for the password on the phone, the same day she sort of defensively gave it to me, was that she "leaves it laying out on her desk alot" at work and doesn't want it to be unlocked in case someone takes it or picks it up. Of course, i work in the defense industry and we have MAJOR security concerns, and i never have a lock on my phone. AAR, I plan to bring it up next opportunity. You explain the transparency concept very well, although i am pretty sure i have, in the past, couched it in terms of being there "for the both of us."





Any take on the 50th birthday and/or the proposed "girls weekends." (Both the other girls going on those are divorced/single, FWIW)

[sandi2]

I also in this case have been guilty of over focusing on the affair, even though it is something that obviously has to be dealt with

Okay, so do you feel there are still loose ends? What do you need that has not happened yet, in relation to the A? She ended it, apologized for it, and has not contacted OM as far as you know. This is important, Jim. How do you want to deal with the A? She already feels you focus entirely on the A, instead of the other issues that existed, so the longer you go without "dealing with it", the worse it may be.

Do they not like a big deal to be made out of them because they tend to be more age sensitive? Or do they want people, particularly their husbands, to make a big deal about it? And obviously there is the overlay of my own particular situation here.

Well......I don't recommend throwing her an "over the hill" party. But as I've been saying recently, It depends on the current stitch. My short answer is that you need to celebrate your W's birthday. Unless she is one of these rediclous women who don't want anyone knowing their age, then you can have a party for her. Either way, don't ignore her birthday. It is a milestone, so do something to celebrate "with" her......and don't send her off to be alone, as you had previously thought about doing. What would your old W have wanted?

Now, the last I have heard my wife say anything about this, was about 3 months ago in the early stages of our counseling, when she said "I feel bad because I think I'd really like to do something like fly off to Cancun for a week or something on my 50th, but I don't see myself doing that sort of thing with you, I see it more with my girlfriends and I feel like normally that's something you should want to do with your husband, but I'm just having trouble seeing it right now" or something to that effect.

Doesn't matter what she said about it. BTW, this was a cold statement for her to say to you, but she was not interested in doing anything with you. At the time, I felt she was probably covering for a possible trip with just the girls. But who can go to Cancun for a week to celebrate a birthday! Does that not seem a bit over the top......or is it just me?

So now I'm like, "damn it, I should already have had something planned..." e

Yep! And besides, leave it to the good old BFF to snatch her away without even consulting with you before taking it upon herself to make plans for your W's birthday...assuming it does fall on her birthday. Oh well, if your W decides to leave, you can always have it another date.

I'm just not sure I like the Dynamics of the whole situation, or of her going away twice in one month for that kind of weekend. Especially when I'd like to do something with her, my wife, to mark the occasion

I don't blame you, and before I started reading the board, I'd never heard of so many M women spending the night and/or going off on so many girlfriend trips. I still don't hear about it, locally. Sure, having a girls night out once in a while, but these ladies seem to push the limits. That is strictly JMHO.

Actually, I could find several negative comments to add about why she should not leave so frequently to take a girls trip. But I will spare you from hearing them. What bothers me is about you saying you wanted to do something with her. When was the last time you left her sitting at home while you GAL? Are you going to GAL while she is running around with the girls? Maybe it is time to plan doing something with your W, besides going to your favorite hangout. Anything becomes boring if you don't change it up sometimes.

If she continues going two weekends out of each month to be away from home. I think you need to say something about it to her. It is just not what people should be doing when they are trying to save their M after an affair. But in the meantime, get busy planning weekend activities when she's not away with her BFF.

[hoosjim]

Well......I don't recommend throwing her an "over the hill" party. But as I've been saying recently, It depends on the current stitch. My short answer is that you need to celebrate your W's birthday. Unless she is one of these rediclous women who don't want anyone knowing their age, then you can have a party for her. Either way, don't ignore her birthday. It is a milestone, so do something to celebrate "with" her......and don't send her off to be alone, as you had previously thought about doing. What would your old W have wanted?

Wanted to clarify something because i gave you the wrong impression previously and you've mentioned it twice now... It was never my impression to send her away "on her own" for a weekend. When i said i wanted to "give her a weekend away", my intention was always that it would be both of us going.

At any rate, my plan is to take her away to a tropical destination for her birthday. That set up was always good for us, we both like the beach and alot of our best early memories are from trips to places like that (Key west, cancun, in particular). I would not plan to throw her any kind of party-- just too problematic with too many different groups of friends (notably her bff... just not sure how to handle that because so much bad blood between certain sectors of her friend profile.) Plus, i am certain bff will arrange something for her. I'd hope her other friends would, too. Maybe i could take a hand in pushing them in the right direction so I am "involved" and leave the sticky guest list issues to them and then i can focus on the trip angle.

WRT the trip, I am just going to approach her and say "Look, W, I really, really want to do something with you on your birthday, and I had wanted to surprise you, but bff's overtures are making that very hard... I really wish she had contacted me first. I'd like you to keep that weekend open".

Or... should i go ahead and contact bff? We are nominally on speaking terms now (well, kind of) but still no love lost. I really don't want her having any whiff of what i am doing so she can non-stop trash me to W, or do something else to sabotage the surprise (which i am sure she would do.) Anyone think i am off base here? I think this is just something i need to talk to W directly about...

[Coconut]

I would talk your Wife, a husband does not need bff's approval to do something with his wife. Tell her that you want to take her away to celebrate her life, and tell her what you've already planned (don't pay until you've told her), don't ask what she wants to do, surprise her months in advance with what you're going to do with/for her.

[hoosjim]

a husband does not need bff's approval to do something with his wife.

Hey, coconut, thanks.

I want to make something crystal clear, though: I would never, never, think i needed, nor would i seek, that... woman's... approval about anything. She's lower than whale spit in my book. Maybe not that low, but pretty low. I have "forgiven" her in the Christian sense and wish no ill will on her, but I want, and do not intend on giving her, any influence or pull on my life.

My thought... and it was only a "thinking out loud" kind of thought, was along the lines of trying to maintain control of the situation and the surprise factor at the same time. (I had actually already been talking with w's coworkers with whom i am friendly about getting the time off for her without her knowing). The thought was a musing about whether or not it might be fruitful to say to bff "hey, look, Mr.s hoosjim told me you are trying to plan a girls weekend on _______, but I am already planning on taking Mrs. Hoosjim away that weekend for her birthday... If you want my her to participate, why dont you look at other weekends for your get-together?" I would never approach her with a "request" nor with any seeking of approval.

That said, your point is well-taken... this needs to be between me and my W. Involving bff would be unnecessary, appear weak, and would unnecessarily complicate things... especially given the strained relationship (putting it kindly) that i have with the woman.

Thanks!

[Ginger1]

WRT the trip, I am just going to approach her and say "Look, W, I really, really want to do something with you on your birthday, and I had wanted to surprise you, but bff's overtures are making that very hard... I really wish she had contacted me first. I'd like you to keep that weekend open".

Please do not do this. It will not be a nice gift or something she looks forward to if you make mention of her BFF. Instead it makes it something stressful that makes it feel like she is being put in between. I notice a lot of you what you say to your W includes a "wish you would have done this instead of that" sentiment. Leaving everything on her shoulders and feeling like she has done wrong which equals pressure, which takes the enjoyment out of things.

I love C-nut's expression. Here is a way to be confident of your decision. Don't put the onus on anyone else. Make the plans!