WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[Coconut]

Gee......did I break the Internet?

Haha, yes sandi2, you done broke the inter web with so much input .

I couldn't help myself, had to respond to this.

Hoosjim, your in a tough spot, most either seperate or get the "come to Jesus" moment by this time.. But now It basically comes down to your intuition, does she want to commit or is she waiting for a better option? It's really difficult to determine by your postings. I will say it seems you have a shot, but at some point things need to stabilize so moving forward becomes an option.

[sandi2]

. Thanks, guys.

[hoosjim]

Sandi2:

Now before someone starts shouting, “Don’t pursue”, I want to explain something. Once you are in piecing, you have to carefully change your position or mindset from being the LBS. I don’t mean change your values or stop your improvements and fall back into your old habits. I just mean that you should show your spouse that you are trying to meet them part way in restoring the MR. One of these steps is non-sexual touches, to showing signs of affections, to engaging in sexual touches. If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.

Ginger:

It seems as if you let her do most of the chasing and were the submissive one and then everything kind of ceased. I, personally, have been on my own since young. Paid my bills, worked, and then after divorce did everything on my own. I make all the decisions. I handled the bills, phone calls, ect. in the marriage. I don't "need" a man. But I very much appreciate a man who knows I can handles things, but still is the "man" in the relationship. Pursues me, is decisive, initiates. Makes plans. Fixes things. Carries heavy stuff. There has to be some passion.

I am going to have a longer reply to what Sandi2 posted, probably when I update after MC tonight, but I wanted to explore this particular issue, which both Sandi and Ginger have brought up-- let's call it "Dominant/Submissive" or, perhaps, "Manly Pursuit."

What got me thinking of this, again, and in the context of y'all's posts, is the very timely debut of the latest "50 Shades" movie. Had an interesting exchange with W a couple of nights ago, when we were sitting on the couch after dinner watching TV. One of those movies, I believe the first one, was on, and we noticed it while flipping through the channels. "Oh, there's 50 shades" says W. "Should I switch to that so you can start getting ready for your girls movie night this Friday?" (She and three girlfriends are going to see the debut of the latest "50 Shades" movie this Friday.) "Yes, turn it on.." She says, then "Oh, it's already a good bit into it... is this the first one?" "Yes, that's what the capsule said" I reply. She says "Oh, you really need to watch this one from the beginning." I ask her if she's excited to be going to see it with her GFs and then ask her "Okay, so, for you, what do you think the big draw is of this movie for women?" To which she replies-- "You should really watch the movies... this first one in particular, but you need to watch it from the beginning because it explains everything". So I respond "well tell me, im interested in your take on it" "Shhhh shhh..." she says, "watch this part, it sort of explains a bit about it". The part she is referring to is where the Man in the movie, who wants to be the "Dominant" to the girls "Submissive", is talking about his own first experience with that dynamic, and to giving up control, and how it actually makes you feel "safe" and "loved" and in that was is very freeing to give up that control. Or something like that, I probably butchered it but I think that's pretty close. At any rate, W finishes by saying "You really should watch the first movie from the beginning." I tell her we could rent it now but she's like "no, it's too late tonight..." (which it was)"... but you should watch it sometime."

So, my question here is (though the answer seems obvious): IS the draw of these movies to women that they all secretly (or not so secretly) want to, at least at times, be "submissive" to a "dominant" man sexually/romantically? Sandi sort of implies this, and it is the gist of what Ginger is saying as well. But, if so, doesn't this sort of fly in the face of the whole "non-pursuit" angle? (To which, I assume, the answer as Sandi seems to be saying is that if you are to the point of reconciling/piecing, and have been in a SSM, that the dominant/pursuing male model is actually what you want to be emulating(?))

Some more interesting color on this are some things that W has said to me in the past, both distant past and then more recently since BD. One, which she was said both then and now, is that sometimes she "likes it rough", and she would want to be just "thrown down and taken" and, second, which she told me not long after BD, that she was surprised in some ways to be with me as I was "one of the smaller (stature-wise people, STATURE-wise) guys that she had been involved with" in her life, which kind of surprised her because part of her had always been drawn to the idea of being physically overwhelmed by a man. (For color, I am 5-10, she is 5-4. At 175, I am somewhat slightly, though athletically built, though as part of my fitness routine since BD I have added about 15 pounds of muscle that I did not have before... which she has noticed and commented on.)

So, all this seems to be pointing to the idea that, yes, in a vacuum, this "dominant male" stance is one that my wife (and perhaps even all women) find attractive and want to see in a man. The only real question for me, then, is is the timing right for me to be more aggressive in pushing that on her? My inclination would be "yes, what have I got to lose", but would love to hear what folks have to say about all of the above.

I have taken that role with her before, mostly in our dating past, and occasionally after marriage so it is not alien to me, though a good bit of that attitude I lost in all of the post-marriage misfortune (illness, financial hardship). My confidence in recent months has returned to very high levels-- which she has also remarked on-- but I have held back a good bit on the more aggressive "dominant male" aspects romantically/sexually due to the particular MR dynamics at play between us. Have been venturing further afield there after LW's advice from Ginger and Sandi and after having done some research/reading... really focusing on eye contact, non-sexual touch but edging a little closer to that-- hand on waist, etc., being "in her space" when near her, etc... but no huge discernible difference yet, though she has not rebelled/rebuked or shrunk away from me either. She did cozy up to me on her own last night in bed.

[Coconut]

Jim,

I'll let someone else respond to what you wrote, but I think your thinking of it to much in a sexual way. Here's a link to something sandi2 wrote on someone's thread that I copied to mine (it's the last post. It address Alpha vs Beta behavior, not just sexually.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...507#Post2776507

[hoosjim]

I'll let someone else respond to what you wrote, but I think your thinking of it to much in a sexual way. Here's a link to something sandi2 wrote on someone's thread that I copied to mine (it's the last post. It address Alpha vs Beta behavior, not just sexually.

Coconut, thanks for that. Really good stuff. I had actually come across as more sex-focused than I had intended... I understand the importance of the entire dynamic, and the post you link does an excellent job of laying it all out. I had done some online reading based on a similar suggestion by Sandi, and found some very useful info, but what you linked added a couple of facets I had not previously considered. Indecisiveness is indeed something I have been working on eliminating, particularly in planning. One of my good friends is continually coaching me on this: "Stop analyzing, just make a plan and go with it", and I am actually doing very well in this regard.

So thanks again!



Which raises an interesting point:

Sandi2 (or anyone): What should the dynamic be in that regard (alpha male) when MC is concerned? It seems that much of that entire process (MC) runs somewhat contra to the Alpha male mindset.

[Ginger1]

I have about 1 min to respond because work is currently blowing up.

But Coconut is right. It has nothing to do with dominant sex. It has to do with being confident, handling situations, making decisions.

For example, my cousin is an alpha female. She makes the money, decisions, ect. Her H is fine with not taking charge, only doing things when told, not making plans and leaving it all up to her. Well, I won't get into the specifics of what's going on there, but, she is absolutely and completely turned off by it. Actually, after all these years, kind of disgusted by it. She a man who takes charge (not bossy) but gets stuff done is attractive.

I am going on a date Friday night. He told me where and what time and asked if that worked for me. Instead of "we can do whatever you want"

I gotta go, but I hope this clears it up a little.

[Ginger1]

And yes, you have to stop over analyzing, make a decision and just go for it. Your overanalyzing might make you look like you aren't confident. You really need to work on your confidence.

[hoosjim]

Oh, and to clarify some, since I am trying to focus on "more than just the sex" --- those "50 shades" movies are more than "just about the sex" (just as my W has told me that, in general, with her, "it's about more than just sex")... the "dominant" mindset extends to pretty much all facets of the characters interaction-- it's just that the sex is obviously what gets the headlines.

Just found it interesting in light of some of the things my W has said...

[hoosjim]

Sandi2, a bit more color and some response to you very long and well thought out post (and I am very sorry to hear about your carpal tunnel... ... I have had bad elbow and wrist tendonitis in the past, and know how painful, and painfully frustrating, it can be, especially when you have to spend a lot of time on the computer). Anyhoo....

Had our second MC session in two weeks. It was... discouraging. Maybe it shouldn't have been but my take-away was not good. W still seems to be in basically the same place she has been for a while... Maybe IC (which she agreed to try on our intensive visit on 2/21) will help.

First off, I just want to ask you if you feel she is being genuine in the things she told you......like proceeding with working on the MR?

MC asked us a series of Q's, and told us each to rate how "Things were" over the past two weeks in each of 7 areas on a scale of 1 to 7. Some of them were unsurprising... we both gave "intimacy" a "2". Others more surprising: She (W)rated "How committed are you to the Marriage for the Long Term" (qualified by the MC to be "in the 'right now' and referring to 'this process'--the counseling and effort to try to save the marriage) a "seven", while I rated it a "5". W said that that qualification by MC drove her answer, and that, even though she did not know what was going to happen with us, that, in the present, she was completely committed to this process we were engaged in. As to my rating of 5, she thought I would rate it higher since I have said in the past I am fully committed to this. My response was that there are "things that make me go 'hmmmm...'" from time to time that affect my confidence and trust in her, like when she was out very late a couple of weeks back (though yes, she did keep calling) and missed her exit to end up out near OM's bar (yes, she told me), or when I find out or suspect that she hasn't been completely honest with me about events or aspects of the A with OM. This provoked a fairly emotional response from her, with her eyes tearing up the whole time. And I know nuance is important here, so I am going to try to remember as closely as I can what she said, but it was something like--

W: "Here we are doing this, and sometimes it seems like we are moving forward, but then other times I feel like we are stuck on this thing that I did, which was really bad and I know it was really bad and I own that, but I feel like sometimes that's the ONLY thing we are worried about or working on here, when there was a whole lot wrong with us before that, and I was done and ready to walk out. It makes me angry/irritated because it seems like it took THIS to get you to want to work on things, when before you seemed just perfectly happy to let me go. Maybe I should have really walked out earlier, and we should have been doing this (counseling) a long time ago, but it bothers me that it took me becoming so lonely and desperate that I was in a place where I could do that (the affair) before you decided you wanted to try to fix things. And I know I should have tried to do something sooner, too, so that's on me, but... sometimes it seems like ALL the focus is on me and this thing I did when that is just part of what is going on with us. And I get angry that I didn't do something sooner, that we weren't working on this sooner, that I didn't do something that would have kept me from doing things and hurting you (hoosjim) and me, and... whoever else [implication OM]"

My response to her was somewhat generic-- I didn't really start getting ticked off about it (which I am now) until I started thinking about it more later. My response at the time was basically that "We're working on all of this, I am not discounting you're pain and what you went through and I know that that is very real and that our relationship prior to the A was not a good one and that those are all things we need to and ARE addressing here... but we can't just ignore the A, either."

MC's response to her was "Yes, it was just 'one thing', and, yes, it was just the culmination of a damaged relationship between the two of you, BUT it was the kind of the climactic thing and a particularly traumatic and harmful thing."

Since the session, though, the more I think about it I'm like "really? Isn't this just a half step removed from her trotting out the things I did as some sort of excuse for the A?" I mean, she didn't exactly say that, but the more I think about it the more I think it's close enough for me to be concerned about, and to be concerned about where her head is.

FWIW, she also allowed, when I point blank asked her about "putting the A and the OM behind her" that: "Do I sometimes think about him, and his kids, and how they're doing? Yes... but I'm not seeing him and im not contacting him. And do I sometimes think about the good times we had together... that even we all had together, you, me and him? Yes. And it makes me sad that that friendship is gone for you... though it has made me happy for you these past few months that you have reconnected with so many of your old friends."

None of this, I should note, is anything I find particularly comforting.

However, the lack of physical touching each other seems to be the elephant in the room. As with most LBS’s, you want the physical affection and the sexual intimacy. Those desires are normal, but until there is effort placed in these extremely important areas….…how can you feel the MR is complete/whole? There is a huge gap between the two of you, and until someone starts moving in closer, the hole will continue to exist.

Assuming for the sake of argument that her head is in a place where she could even be receptive to physical overtures, the above is dead spot on. We both rated "intimacy" at a "2" out of 7, and her take was that it still feels weird/awkward for her, and in moments when we are close physically or in a moment where it would be appropriate or likely that we would touch she sometimes still thinks to herself "okay, he's going to touch me now", though she does not find it "repelling" in any way (which she actually used to). She also says she has "noticed the past couple of weeks" that I have been touching her more... though, TBH, while this is true I have not been going overboard and have not been going "out of my way"... but have just been taking the opportunities when such touch seems like the natural thing to do. Passing in the hallway, when I have to reach over her for something in the kitchen or the like, when going through a doorway with her, etc. But... no indication from her that she is at all thawing out, at least to hear her words say it, though I will say that I have noticed a thaw in her actions over the past couple of months... a willingness to be touching me in bed, or when we are sitting together out. The more deliberate touches, however, are still mostly absent from her repertoire. She even explicitly said at one point in the MC this week that we are "in the friend zone", and "trying to get out of it".

My inclination tactically here is to just say "eff it" and be more "dominant male" than I have been with her, and, if she objects, she objects.... But the past couple of days since the session have left me stewing about both her attitude WRT the A, and about her reluctance in the physical realm-- after all it was she who originally said "lets just try to be in the moment and do what feels natural"-- Well, I am her H, and at the very least her friend... notwithstanding our past and given the type of person she is, I would definitely be expecting more warm/friendly touching on her part if she was trying to just be "in the moment." IDK.

If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.

I guess this is the big question, isn't it?

I don’t mean to confuse anyone here. Up until her recent conversation about commitment, I don’t think I have specifically mentioned your position in piecing. Mainly b/c things just looked “ify”. I was seeing things in her that concerned me, and until I hear more updates…….I don’t want to jump too far ahead. For some people, commitment means showing effort, but for others, it doesn’t. IMHO, you should see some immediate show of effort from her, if nothing else but to help your feelings. But, if she puts off seeing the MC/IC……then step back. If she’s all talk and no action, then something is still off with her. And look, it took me nearly two years before I felt as if I was “ready” to show some effort……..so I don’t want to sign you up for piecing too quickly, KWIM? I had a lot of stuff I was dealing with. And when I say “to show” effort, I mean that with a humble W there is (or should be), at first, an unseen work that is going on in her heart…….if she is being honest/real about saving her MR. If the work is being accomplished in her spirit, then outward effort will come more naturally for her. It’s when she holds back to that old wayward mindset that will prevent progress in her. So, the H has to exercise patient for a while, but I don’t think he should just “settle” for a limbo existence for the rest of their M together.

I have to admit to confusion here, myself. The issue of the rings even came up. I mentioned it obliquely, something like "you know, if things were better with us, if we were wearing rings, I wouldn't mind so much that_______ ..." To which she said "so with the rings again, you haven't worn yours in years... you lost it and it didn't even seem to bother you (admittedly true) and you never once talked about replacing it." She said she "took hers off in the kitchen one day when she was working with raw burger" and then thought to herself "I wonder if I would get any "bites"" by not having it on. She said the more she thought about it, and the way she felt, she didn't feel like she could wear the engagement ring at all, given its history (the diamond is a family heirloom on my side of the family) and what it meant to me, and after that she just kept them off. At that point mine had been off for over a year. She asked me why I wasn't wearing one and I said that I "had been asked about it" and I felt like even though I did not want the old relationship symbolized by those rings, that at least if I was committed to fixing our marriage that I should be wearing something as a sign to others. I asked her if I went out and bought one would she put hers back on what "it would look like" for her to want to put it back on. She was silent for a moment and then started to say something else and we were cut off suddenly from our Skype feed with MC, and the discussion never got finished as I scrambled to restart the connection and then we had to wrap it up. So... issue unresolved.

This is getting long, so I will put any further responses to your posts in a subsequent post.

[hoosjim]

Sandi-- Part 2 (actually part 3 if you also consider my earlier post about male dominance) of my response to you:

So......lots of inner work needed for her. One step at a time. The healing in the intimacy (if I am saying this correctly) will probably be the last issue to fully accomplish.....if that was the issue behind her waywardness. However, if there was something deeper, or you have no clue.....or maybe she doesn't either, the therapist will have to get her to dig it out before she can receive healing. FWIW, there is power in prayer. ((hugs)

And who knows what all the inner issues are with her. She grants that lack of communication and internalizing (and not just with me but with everyone) is something with which she has always struggled. We never had that level of intimacy characterized by full sharing and vulnerability regarding fears and weaknesses and problems... she because that was just the way she was raised and the way everyone in her family dealt with problems and me because I was afraid or never trusted her enough to let on that I had fears or weaknesses or the like. (We both rated "communication" a 4 out of seven, and both admitted that we held things back from each other sometimes for fear of how the other one would react. MC said, of course, that this was something we had to work on, and thought that some of the more emotional conversation we had in session, like about her and my feelings about the A, was a good start). There's also the heavy Catholic guilt thing with her, and the sexually repressed family (even kissing was frowned upon) which ran very counter to her inner nature of being or at least wanting to be a very demonstrative person physically and having a strong sex drive. And also the expectations of everyone on her that she was the "good girl" and the "good daughter" and how she feels she disappointed everyone on the one hand and how sometimes OTOH she felt she wanted to rebel. And then her body image. And probably a host of other things I don't even know about. She definitely has issues and definitely needs IC. I don't see how "we" manage to work things out if she doesn't go through that.

Speaking of prayer, reminds me that she has a spiritual problem. Which, of course, goes hand in hand with waywardness. She can't have much spiritual fellowship with God, if she is rebelling against one of His divine institutions, such as M. Plus, there may be something more that she's never resolved......with God. Once she's straight with Him, her soul will feel at peace and she will be in a better place to deal with whatever is needed.

Yes, she does. I won't belabor it here since it's already a known factor. She is a person of faith, but conflicted and guilt-ridden. A big factor with her is an abortion she underwent in college... a result of her first sexual encounter... and the guilt she long felt, and still feels, from that. She says she believes she is forgiven for that-- she did go to confession and all that-- but I have my doubts. It's constantly preached about in the catholic church, obviously, and a constant reminder to her. So, yeah... another issue.

I'm guessing that was before the A began, calling you during the work day was usual behavior for her?

In the distant past, yeah. But by the time the A rolled around, we had not been talking during the work day for a fairly long time. The occasional (certainly not even daily) call about something kid-related, but other than that, nothing. When we first started this "reconciling" (if that is indeed what we are doing), she was calling constantly-- she'd always call during her lunch break, and then usually at least two or three other times. Since the really cold weather started, she doesn't get to go outside at lunch, and with her work switchover, she just flat doesn't get lunch breaks period most days, so she is calling now a little less than she did in, say, October/November, but still at least a couple times a day, and I am trying to get in at least one call to her, either during her commute (A lot of her affair convos with OM were during commute time) or during the workday, but it is hard to connect from my end because the nature of her job she has to talk to people so often and often either cant pick up or then when she does has to hang up right away... so usually I leave the calling to her, figuring she will call when she has a few minutes to talk... W'eve actually joked about this.

As long as she is putting forth just a little effort of some kind, then you show her your effort, as well.

And... she does appear to be putting forth at least a little effort. But it's her mindset I worry about. And she keeps saying things here and there, and maybe I am just overanalyzing and I AM too focused on the A but... I get nervous. We've had so many starts and stops before.

In case anyone wonders, you were asking about how the picture would look, and these were things I was trying to describe. Since we had approached this subject a while back, you posted about not really engaging with non-sexual touching......and the reason I found your quote above interesting was when you said she had plenty of opportunities where it would be natural but she doesn't reach out to touch you. This period you both are going through (if she has not back slid, and she is being genuine) is kind of like a game of chicken. You both hold back, waiting on the other one to make the first move. You both have made the simple act of touching each other seem as awkward as having sex in the town square in broad daylight. In other words, you are watching her like a hawk. At least, in my mind's eye it appears as such. Maybe part of that is b/c I told you not to rush her and to not get all feely-touchy b/c it would put too much pressure on her at first. In fact, I'm pretty sure I talked about not initiating any sexual type of touching. I usually give that advice b/c men want to seal the deal by having sex, and that causes many of them to push to have sex too soon. But like a lot of other H's, you seemed to have become so aware of every little move (or lack thereof) and it's killing every possibility to just act normally.

Just FWIW I really think that this is amazingly on point and really captures the sitch perfectly... Assuming that my W is in fact being genuine in her efforts at the moment.

The determining line about being in piecing or in limbo is the answer to the following question. ”Did she just end her contact with OM, and is currently under the same roof with her H, ………or did she show true remorse & humility, and is cooperating in actively working to do whatever her H and MR needs to heal and be happy again?”

And this is where I am kind of uncertain. I believe she did show true remorse and humility, and she has continued to show remorse (she continues to say "this is on me, I did this, I own this, etc.) but... every now and then she says something like she said in session and I say to myself "okay, now what was that?" She is defensive by nature... very defensive, actually, which comes from the guilt angle, but I am not sure that that fully explains everythin. Due to the tech difficulties, We did not get to fully explore in session what I was trying to say that sparked that whole discussion, and I feel like I need to tell her what I meant, which was not to keep beating her up and slapping her around for having the affair (which is how she appeared to take it) but to convey to her that the more transparent she can be, like calling me, not being late, sharing her phone (and I noticed the other day when she handed me her phone to do something that it still had a lock on it-- she unlocked it for me but that lock is still activated), that the easier trust gets for me, and that that is not about beating her up for the past but rather about rebuilding our relationship and building intimacy going forward. MC kind of touched on those points but I don't think that that's what W got from me.

I think you were too easy and didn't require the kind of transparency from her to earn back your trust. Therefore, she hasn't had to, has she? Am I forgetting something? When I tried to tell you how important it was for both of you, I got the idea you were afraid to push the transparency with her......b/c at that time, you were too afraid of losing your M. Anyway, I think that's one reason that you have felt the insecurity and uneasiness, especially when she would not wear her ring, and some of her questionable actions.

I think you are right. She has done some things, she would say a lot of things-- limiting her time out with GFs, always calling when she is late, letting me track her phone, sharing her phone with me frequently, getting rid of all her A-related FB contacts... but I never required her to submit to random phone checks, or to give me her phone password. (She did give it to me very early on, sort of haphazardly and a bit defensively: "What? I think its like "___________"", but I think she thinks I have forgotten it, and I have not let on that I know it. She has left her phone "laying around"-- I almost think she does this on purpose-- a few times and I have checked it and found nothing suspicious, so if she is doing anything on the phone, and I have looked VERY deeply into app history and everything, she is really covering her tracks. (There is a very, very old text string from late 2016 between her and OM, very close to the bottom of her text history (Way, WAY down there) that she may not know about... but which is still on the phone. It was from when they were just being friendly and when things were starting to cross the line but before they got steamy. IDK, if I ever have the occasion to be looking over the phone WITH her again, I might bring it up, after which I am sure she will delete it just like she did the FB messenger thread).

At any rate, yeah. I should've established clearer and definitive transparency standards. But I didn't. To her credit, she has really tried to keep me apprised of her whereabouts and so forth. I know she's had slip ups and know she has had drive by's, here and there, of OM's hangouts, though the last one I know of for certain was in November (or December, if you want to count the trip to the store she told me about that I voiced concerns about but she went anyway and then told me she'd gone.) But... yes it would make things easier, though, even then, it wouldn't change some of the things she's said that give me pause.

Ugh.