WW, A ended, but struggling to reconnect (My 11th)

[Ginger1]

I am also eager to hear what Sandi has to say.

But the way I see it, is you ARE dating her again. You are pretty much back to where you were before the A. So, if you don't do things differently, you'll be here forever. And quite frankly, that is probably why she sees everything as "ok" or working on the M because you are getting back to exactly where you were before the A. Her commitment feels strong because you are exactly where you were for many many years. See what I am saying?

And if you do this date, there is no getting laid on the big first date. Perhaps a kiss. NO pressure for sex. But I think you need to take your W out on a real date, not to your local watering hole every weekend like you would with your buddies. Yes, you both may enjoy it, but you enjoy it in the friend zone.

Maybe my idea was to extreme for now, but something has to be done differently, as if she was a new woman you were dating.

[hoosjim]

But I think you need to take your W out on a real date, not to your local watering hole every weekend like you would with your buddies. Yes, you both may enjoy it, but you enjoy it in the friend zone.

This makes sense. Almost to the point it worries me: "Could it be that obvious?"

TBH, if I am the "courtin' Hoosjim", Im making a reservation at a cozy little café in "Old Town" where she's always wanted to go but never has, arranging for her to have the day off on 2/15 (I know and am friendly with a couple of girls she works with, the doctor she works for, and the practice manager, and the practice owner... heck, I know most of them by now-- so it would be pretty easy for me to confirm if that would not be too disruptive and have them arrange for someone to cover for her) so we can stay out late, etc etc. and then telling her "be ready cause we're going out" and thentaking her out on V-Day. Could also just surprise her but she doesn't "surprise" very well. Likes to be given the chance to pretty up and put on clothes she thinks look good on her. Limo ride would be a nice end to such an evening-- we live in a very scenic city-- but doubt I could arrange that for V-Day at this point. (Potential drawback here is that she's already taking the following Wed off for MC/IC and might disrupt her very busy workplace and put some extra stress on her when she goes back)

Another option would just be to do something similar on this next weekend (not this one starting right now--im still getting over a wicked bad cold and she just started getting it. I'm currently on Day 8 of the damned thing.) Though she is going out with two GFs after work to see the "50 shades" movie (rolls eyes.)

Those pretty much the most likely dates coming up. Weekend after VD prolly out due to college visit for S2. Weekend after that would be the ski weekend if I do it.

Point is , I can do that kind of thing, just trying to think of the most effective way, tactically. Because, lets face it, if I am dating her again, tactics matter

[sjohns6]

hoosjim, been following along with great interest. I am asking myself some of the same questions right now regarding dating. I feel like maybe I should be more assertive and plan a date, but I'm on the fence because I'm not sure she actually WANTS to. But maybe she would if I did? I tried to plan a date, but I asked her to dinner and it was rescheduled until it didn't happen. I didn't tell her to get ready and pick out a dress for her and have a limo waiting. Maybe she would like that?

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack your thread...just feeling your pain a little.

[sandi2]

Sorry for the delay. I have carpal tunnel in my hands, and it got so bad that I couldn't type.

I had been going to give her a weekend away at a ski lodge for V-Day, but hadn't thought about what to actually do on the day, go out or whatever.

I like the gift idea for V-Day....except for one thing that seems to be missing. When you say give her a weekend away, it sounds as if you mean without you. If it is going to be a V-Day gift and she'll be going to some romantic location, you need to go with her.

Could also just surprise her but she doesn't "surprise" very well. Likes to be given the chance to pretty up and put on clothes she thinks look good on her.

Me too! I like surprises......not just last minute ones, where I don't have time to get dolled up. My history of surprising others (anniversary, birthday, etc., where a lot of people are involved) is that an important ingredient of the enjoyment is the anticipation. Giving them the surprise news in time for them to prepare is smart, especially for a woman......or else risk a let down in her reaction. Just putting it out there for anyone planning a special surprise party for someone.

I gave my grandparents a surprise anniversary party, and when they walked into the room and saw all the people gathered, I thought my grandfather was going to have a heart attack. Several years later I gave my aging father a big birthday party, but after the previous experience, I did not try to surprise him and told him in advance. He was excited and I saw how the anticipation actually extended the enjoyment I wanted him to have. Not that this applies to your W by any means, but maybe my experience will help someone else who is planning a big surprise for a loved one in their family.

I will try to overhaul my long post today, if my hands can hold out. Not that I said anything profound, but for some reason....I am having trouble shortening the length.

[sandi2]

Okay, here is part of that "long post". First off, I just want to ask you if you feel she is being genuine in the things she told you......like proceeding with working on the MR? I really wish Artista would jump in here, b/c in some cases where the couple is piecing; it gets a little difficult for me to decide if she's on the up & up. It would help to have another former WW's opinion about where they see your at this time. As Artista has stated, she had more than one false start. Frankly, I don't really know....but, I believe her actions and attitude will have to be your meter.

From the time your W ended her A, I don’t know if you feel that she has actually said all the things you wanted to hear from her. All we can do is to tell a board newcomer what his WW “should” say and do. We can tell him what he needs to require from her, before reconciliation is likely to be successful. However, it doesn’t mean she will actually form the sentences quite like we suggested. But if she is just willing to save the M, then a good MC could guide her about what her H needs to hear and see from her.

IMHO, you have not had what you needed from her to give you a better sense of emotional security. In other words, you still don’t know where the MR stands. She has shown more than just civility; has had very enjoyable times with you; does little things that show a measure of consideration; and pursues you by initiating phone calls every day. In several ways, the relationship appears to be better than it has in quite some time. As common with WW’s……even recovering WW’s, they want the friendship side of the M. And when they are reconciling, coming together and improving the MR, friendship is needed. However, the lack of physical touching each other seems to be the elephant in the room. As with most LBS’s, you want the physical affection and the sexual intimacy. Those desires are normal, but until there is effort placed in these extremely important areas….…how can you feel the MR is complete/whole? There is a huge gap between the two of you, and until someone starts moving in closer, the hole will continue to exist.

I’ve already discussed the importance of starting non-sexual touching. I think someone referred to this like playing chicken, to see which one would make the first move. Maybe I’m wrong, but if there is absolutely no touching whatsoever……I doubt there will be intimate touching for a while yet. It has become too unnatural for you. I really think you need to see your IC about it. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying there is something “wrong” with you. I believe it is the result of everything you’ve previously explained. Although it is suppose to appear as just a normal, everyday non-sexual touch…….it really has to be an “intended” action on your part, until the awkwardness goes away. Make sense?

Now before someone starts shouting, “Don’t pursue”, I want to explain something. Once you are in piecing, you have to carefully change your position or mindset from being the LBS. I don’t mean change your values or stop your improvements and fall back into your old habits. I just mean that you should show your spouse that you are trying to meet them part way in restoring the MR. One of these steps is non-sexual touches, to showing signs of affections, to engaging in sexual touches. If your W is being genuine about commitment and wanting the MR to work……then she needs just as much encouragement as you. And, she especially needs it from you.

If I were to ask her what she was seeing in Jim’s demeanor, what do you think she’s say? How do you think she felt when she’s intentionally reached out to touch you, but you haven’t shown the same initiative? Does she see you as stand-offish, cold, punitive, hurt, or fearful? You mentioned how she is sensitive about her weight gain. Have you considered how she may emotionally link your hesitancy to touch her with her physical weigh? Yes, I know you think she is beautiful. But it’s what you do that makes her feel beautiful. Considering the relationship has been a SSM, and the more you resist even non-sexual touches, the less chance for a happy, successful MR, IMHO. I have mostly referred to non-sexual touching, but I think we could include a good-bye hug in the mornings……don’t you? You don’t have to stand around with your hands in your pockets, and trying to think of something to say………just head for the door and turn around and give her a quick little friendly hug, with maybe a little pat on her back. Then leave. Don’t make this so complicated.

You see Jim, if your W is being honest with you, then you are not in the position of a LBH. You are a H in the position of piecing the M back together. When you are in piecing, you need to adjust a few things you were doing from the position as a LBH. For an example, you said you have continued to be the first to end a phone conversation with her. If her behavior is belittling, disrespectful or unbecoming in some way, then that’s fine. However, if she is not acting like a b’tch, and she’s not resembling a GGW, or acting out some form of rebellion in other ways…….I think the H should not be so quick to be the first to end the conversation when his W has been the one to initiate the call. Remember, I am talking about a couple who has reconciled and she is behaving herself, okay? Your problem is that you don’t know where the M stands. You have not known if she was even committed to working on the MR. So, it leaves you in a rather puzzling situation as knowing how to interact with her. Unless you feel that she is not being honest, I suggest you wait for her to end the call (if she has been the one to initiate it) and just see if you can tell more warmth from her. It doesn’t hurt to play a little hard to get, but when piecing, I think being the one to end the conversation when she initiated the all, could be seen as cold or punitive. So, in this previous 180, you might want to determine who ends the call according to what her meter registers.

I don’t mean to confuse anyone here. Up until her recent conversation about commitment, I don’t think I have specifically mentioned your position in piecing. Mainly b/c things just looked “ify”. I was seeing things in her that concerned me, and until I hear more updates…….I don’t want to jump too far ahead. For some people, commitment means showing effort, but for others, it doesn’t. IMHO, you should see some immediate show of effort from her, if nothing else but to help your feelings. But, if she puts off seeing the MC/IC……then step back. If she’s all talk and no action, then something is still off with her. And look, it took me nearly two years before I felt as if I was “ready” to show some effort……..so I don’t want to sign you up for piecing too quickly, KWIM? I had a lot of stuff I was dealing with. And when I say “to show” effort, I mean that with a humble W there is (or should be), at first, an unseen work that is going on in her heart…….if she is being honest/real about saving her MR. If the work is being accomplished in her spirit, then outward effort will come more naturally for her. It’s when she holds back to that old wayward mindset that will prevent progress in her. So, the H has to exercise patient for a while, but I don’t think he should just “settle” for a limbo existence for the rest of their M together.

If you have not read the book on love languages, I want to encourage you to do it right away. When a couple speaks in opposite languages, communication is bound to cause problems. The book on the five basic love languages is really an eye opener. It would be very smart to know the things to do that actually speaks love to your W.

[sandi2]

Part 2 of the extra long post:

“More recently, she has been much much much more civil in her interactions with me and kids, and certainly she is much more loving with the kids now than she has been since they were little. As to consideration towards me? Hmmmm. She does not any longer offer any signs of disrespect towards me, but, well... I will say that in terms of day-to-day consideration and politeness and demeanor she gives me as much as coworkers/friends.”

That's good......and it is very important, IMHO. If the couple is in piecing, and she can't even show as much consideration to her H as she would give to a stranger.....then, they are going to have a very long, difficult piecing period. Sometimes it's easier to show strangers consideration, than our spouse.....b/c we don't know strangers and don't have a R with them. Co-workers and neighbors, well, we often feel we "have" to show a certain level of professionalism at work, and maybe a little friendliness with a neighbor b/c they live by us? Anyway, it's a start. The actions have to come first, then the feelings will follow. Most times, I am trying to tell a newcomer not to confuse friendliness, polite consideration, etc., to mean the same as "love". On the other hand, if there has been reconciliation, then friendliness and polite consideration is....nice. It is much better than coldness, or hatefulness....but I suppose if that was the case, it wouldn't be much of reconciliation, would it? Perhaps some people confuse a true reconciliation with the fact the wayward spouse just chose to end their A and not leave the M. That's pretty much what I did at first. How could I truly be reconciled when I was so resentful toward him? I had to work on myself to get close to emotional reconciliation. I don't think I was truly reconciled in every way until the night I went to him with a broken heart for what I had done, and asked if he could forgive me. Have I confused you yet? If not, stick around.

“However, in terms of intimacy/touch, she still holds back more. I have even remarked on this to her on a couple of occasions-- Once way back in June (before this current reconcilliation phase started) and she was still avoiding any touch by me and seemed borderline repulsed by it, she could have a stranger come up and put his hand on her shoulder/back and she'd be just fine with this”

Yeah....repulsed is a pretty accurate word to describe the WW's feelings for her H. The doctor she gave a full frontal, warm hug at the Christmas party? Well, she wasn't going home with him. She could give him that hug (whether or not it was appropriate)and leave it at that. The doctor wasn't going to make the moves on her, like H's start making when they want to have sex (which is often not romantic). At least, we'll give the Doc the benefit of doubt, just to make a point of how messed up a WW's mindset can be. A woman could flirt, and even be turned on by a M co-worker at a Christmas party, and then go home with her H and think nothing of being cold as ice. So......lots of inner work needed for her. One step at a time. The healing in the intimacy (if I am saying this correctly) will probably be the last issue to fully accomplish.....if that was the issue behind her waywardness. However, if there was something deeper, or you have no clue.....or maybe she doesn't either, the therapist will have to get her to dig it out before she can receive healing. FWIW, there is power in prayer. ((hugs)

Speaking of prayer, reminds me that she has a spiritual problem. Which, of course, goes hand in hand with waywardness. She can't have much spiritual fellowship with God, if she is rebelling against one of His divine institutions, such as M. Plus, there may be something more that she's never resolved......with God. Once she's straight with Him, her soul will feel at peace and she will be in a better place to deal with whatever is needed.

“She probably calls me two to three times as much as i dial her up, although the text imbalance is probably equally unbalanced the other way. She never says "Im just thinking of you" and she often has a pretext-- usually something about the kids-- but she has been calling me regularly two to three times during the workday ever since July/August.”

I'm guessing that was before the A began, calling you during the work day was usual behavior for her? Don't fret over her not actually saying she was just thinking of you. I think I stated those words to you, when questioning some things she might do to show interest, or whatever. However, for her to actually say those words to you could possibly indicate feelings of love, romance, & intimacy that she's not quite ready to relay verbally. Some women who are not ready for intimacy, will avoid saying something that gives her H the idea she is thinking of having sex. It's kind of her way of saying, "Don't get the wrong idea, or get your hopes up, just b/c I'm calling three times today". So, she feels she has to have some valid excuse to call, like something about the boys, etc. Women are infamous game players.......even with themselves. I said all of that to just repeat that her daily actions toward you, are better than some WW's who are a year coming back from an A. It is usually those W’s who haven’t really committed all the way in their hearts. There is a difference in true commitment and in feeling it's the end of hoping for a happier life. Another part to it is those W's have H’s who aren’t requiring more effort b/c he is settling for her crumbs and/or he's afraid of scaring her off. My heart goes out to LBH’s b/c they really are in a delicate spot. I think it's more difficult for the H of a WW, than a W to a WH.....but that's JMHO.

“Hard to say she often deliberately reaches out to touch me with her hands. Once or twice, here and there, every couple of days, but she has plenty of opportunities where it would be natural where she does not. OTOH, she seems more willing WRT feet/legs. Maybe its just subconscious and she doesn't notice it as much, but she will often have her legs or feet pressed against mine when we are out, or even when we are in bed if we are not cuddled up a little closer.”

In case anyone wonders, you were asking about how the picture would look, and these were things I was trying to describe. Since we had approached this subject a while back, you posted about not really engaging with non-sexual touching......and the reason I found your quote above interesting was when you said she had plenty of opportunities where it would be natural but she doesn't reach out to touch you. This period you both are going through (if she has not back slid, and she is being genuine) is kind of like a game of chicken. You both hold back, waiting on the other one to make the first move. You both have made the simple act of touching each other seem as awkward as having sex in the town square in broad daylight. In other words, you are watching her like a hawk. At least, in my mind's eye it appears as such. Maybe part of that is b/c I told you not to rush her and to not get all feely-touchy b/c it would put too much pressure on her at first. In fact, I'm pretty sure I talked about not initiating any sexual type of touching. I usually give that advice b/c men want to seal the deal by having sex, and that causes many of them to push to have sex too soon. But like a lot of other H's, you seemed to have become so aware of every little move (or lack thereof) and it's killing every possibility to just act normally.

If she was reaching out to touch you every few days, and she never saw you initiate a simple non-sexual touch, where you touched her with your hands.......then all sort of thoughts could be running through her head. You said she is dealing with some weight gain, and it really bothers her. Yes, you think she is beautiful.....but what are you showing her, if you can't do the most basic little touches? Don't get me wrong, Jim. I'm not beating you up. This is my way of trying to point things out and explain the woman's viewpoint. When a couple is genuinely working on their MR, and if she is no longer showing waywardness (as far as you can tell), then that places you in a somewhat different position than when you were the LBH. Do you see what I mean? As a LBH who has a WW that is unwilling to work to save their MR, there are certain things you don't do.......until she agrees to work on the MR. Once she does agree, and you can see some progress (albeit, even a little), you need to gradually move closer toward her. As long as she is putting forth just a little effort of some kind, then you show her your effort, as well.

I am hesitant to even say that ^^^^, b/c someone out there will misunderstand how I mean it and start yelling to not pursue her. You never pursue a wayward! But if she's not showing signs of waywardness, and she has said that she is committed to working on the MR......then as a man, you need to move toward her. What would she say she sees in your working or your efforts on the MR? Although she was the one who cheated, and she does carry the burden of earning back your trust, if she feels a lack of team effort in the area of trying to get the MR on better level, I worry that she will stop trying at all. As long as she is responding positively toward your actions, then that's what you do when you both are actively working on the MR together. You did not cheat, but you did contribute to the breakdown of the relationship, and both of you have plenty of work to do.

I touched on this in the last post of how you are still being the first one to end the phone conversation. I'm glad you brought it up, b/c this is a good example of what I'm talking about. When the WW is having an A, or she is being disrespectful in other ways, she won't agree to work on the MR, etc........you start detaching, stepping back and giving her a lot of space, GAL, focusing on you and your kids instead of her, etc., etc. Right? Okay, so if she ends the A and all her overt wayward behavior toward you and the M, and she's being respectful toward you, and she has agreed to do whatever you've asked in order to feel safe in a R with her, and she is showing progress in the work....then you are in "piecing".

The determining line about being in piecing or in limbo is the answer to the following question. ”Did she just end her contact with OM, and is currently under the same roof with her H, ………or did she show true remorse & humility, and is cooperating in actively working to do whatever her H and MR needs to heal and be happy again?” Perhaps that question sounds over simplified. As I said, it took me nearly two years to feel like I was anywhere ready to put forth the kind of effort that a LBH wants to see from his W. For one reason, my false pride held me back. Another reason was the fact it took me so freak'in long to get through the withdrawals, and the reason (I later realized) was the fact I had not totally let go of the fantasy in my head. I daydreamed of “what could have been” with some other man. Once I truly let go of the fantasy, and got my heart right with God, then the remorse hit me for real. After I sincerely apologized to my H, then I could feel a difference in my emotional energy. I’m not saying it takes everyone that long. The more problems that existed in the MR, and the more individual issues the WW has, the longer it will probably take to resolve everything. As I’ve said in the past, it is more difficult for women to categorically separate their emotions, than it is for men.


If you are piecing the M back together, then why would you act stand offish or withdrawn, as if she was still having an A? If she is not doing what you’ve asked of her, then it needs to be addressed to determine why. If there are no logical or satisfying explanations, and if she is not willing to seek professional assistance, then you should probably state new or additional boundaries. You said you had voiced only one boundary. There is no law that says you can’t state more boundaries whenever necessary. At the very least, tell her what you need to see in her, and what she needs to do to build back your trust, and if that doesn’t happen then you’ll have to ______(fill in the blank). Just don’t tell her you’ll have to think about it further, b/c in this instance, it just gives her more leeway. If not, then you may be seeing the future of your MR as it currently stands.....which is limbo.

However, if she has done what you've asked, and she is not giving you reason to doubt her b/c of suspicious behavior, then why would you not be piecing the M back together? Who is determining where you are? If I were to ask her what she has seen in you, what do you think she would say?

So, being the first one to end the phone calls is just one example. Although that is the thing to do when you are dealing with a wayward W, why would you continue if she is not showing disrespect toward you, and the two of you have agreed to work on this MR? When I ended my A, and I had straightened up my behavior toward my H......it would have been very hurtful and discouraging if he wanted to get off the phone every time I called him. (If he had been the one who called me, then of course, he would end the conversation first). You see, some of these things you were doing as a LBH with a WW, but there may be a few of your previous 180’s as a LBH, you don't carry over into piecing. At least, not when she is doing what you have asked from her, and when she is showing respect toward you. I don't think that point is brought out enough in the Newcomer forum, and unfortunately, a lot of people don't stick around long enough to find out. And like I said, being the first to end the phone call, is just an example. Maybe you can think of something else, or perhaps you have questions about some action and if you should continue with it.

Well, I accidently deleted the rest of post. Guess it's just as well, b/c I would have had to make a Part 3.

Excuse, if I repeated some places. I started out copying and pasting, and then it b/c confusing. I just hope I haven't confused anyone else.

[sandi2]

Oh, I found it. Part 3, and I think the last one to that extra long post.

One of the main problems you have had since she ended the A, is not knowing where you really stand. There is no wonder you would not show affection, if she is giving suspicious signs and we are telling you something isn't right somewhere. What I'm telling you is that if you believe she's being honest......and what you read on the board does not sound anything like the woman you have at your address, then either start acting as if you are working "with her" to piece the N back together, or start go back to implementing the 37 rules....as if she were still in an affair. Does that make sense? Probably not.

. I doubt it would make sense to me if I were in your shoes. I've said all along, you need to know where you stand in this relationship. You don't want to put up your source of intel. That's fine. But I'll tell you something I don't think I ever have. To me, it appears that whenever she is showing some suspicious behavior, it's as if you agree to a point, and then you suddenly decide you don't want to know. You'll say, "I'm not going to put up the surveillance", kind of like denial, as if you seem afraid to know the truth.....and although it's rare, you get just a little defensive about it. Nobody is telling you to get intel, if you don't want to know. I'm not pushing you to do it. I'm just making a point that I've seen you do this on occasion. IMHO, it's b/c you told her to never contact OM ever again......but maybe you didn't lay down a plan or stipulations of what else she would need to do in order for you to stick with her in a MR.

I think you were too easy and didn't require the kind of transparency from her to earn back your trust. Therefore, she hasn't had to, has she? Am I forgetting something? When I tried to tell you how important it was for both of you, I got the idea you were afraid to push the transparency with her......b/c at that time, you were too afraid of losing your M. Anyway, I think that's one reason that you have felt the insecurity and uneasiness, especially when she would not wear her ring, and some of her questionable actions.

Successful piecing is the hardest thing to accomplish, and when you don't have more than a lot of guess work about where the MR stands, and only a running list of pros & cons about her behavior........how can you expect to move forward and have the loving relationship you so badly want? Too many H's are too quick to settle for the WW just ending her A and nothing else. By the time they realize they need something after the A in order to have a real M, they have waited too long. By now, she knows she does not have to give much, in order to maintain the benefits she receives from the M. So, it will be a lot harder than it would have if you had laid it out when you told her no more contact with the OM. This is why I go around grandma's house trying to explain some of these very recent posts, b/c I am so concerned it will throw you into a tizzy. I am right there with you, as for wanting to believe she has been truthful with you. I have to say that she "sounds" very convincing in her last conversation. That's another reason I wish Artista would give her viewpoint, b/c I have become somewhat emotionally attached to your stitch and really want to believe your W is being sincere. I had the same feelings with Coconut's stitch, as well as some others.

Actions will tell. I believe women tell the true story in their attitudes. Just remember to look for actions, words, and attitudes to line up with each other. When they do, then she's really ready to do the work. I'm not saying it will be easier, but at least, you'll know where you stand.

Again, apologies for any duplicating I've done in the past three posts. You all can sigh a breath of relief now.

[sandi2]

Gee......did I break the Internet?

[Holding]

Maybe Jim's afraid if he says anything else, it'll make your carpal tunnel worse

[hoosjim]

Gee......did I break the Internet? grin

Hey Sandi. That is all really, really good stuff, excellent insights... i can't even begin. Just... thanks for taking the time and thought to put all that together. It really means a lot.

There is really not alot there I think i need to "respond" to other than to say, well, "thanks". I am still processing all of that, as well as some other stuff, and will post something more substantial some time in the next day or two. We have a counselling session tomorrow, so maybe after that.

Thanks again!!!