How a treehouse can cost you your marriage 2

[Clyde]

Link to previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2764815#Post2764815

[Clyde]

I was on the phone w/ the W, we were talking about non R stuff, I was going through the picture files on my computer at the same time and came across a screen shot she had taken almost exactly a year ago, it was a paragraph that read:

Great Marriages Don't Happen By Luck Or Accident.
They Are They Result Of Consistent Investment Of Time,
Thoughtfulness, Forgiveness, Affection, Prayer, Mutual
Respect And A Rock Solid Commitment Between A
Husband And A Wife.

I couldn't help but tell her what I just came across, I asked her if she remembered taking the screen shot, she said yes. I asked her what changed.

She said when she took it she felt like our M was strained, and reading it helped her at the moment. I replied I got that, but why did you stop thinking like that. I feel at that moment she gave me the most honest answer to date...

She went on to tell me that she felt she had no identity, I listened and told her wow - I did not know you felt that way... I reminded her of achievements she has made, what a phenomenal mother she is, those who look up to her, and that she had just graduated school and is starting a new career and what an accomplishment that is.

She said it's not that, it's that she feels she should be able to do what ever she wants, like going out w/ the "sister". (Going out w/ the sister came up in MC and at that point the W acknowledged the issues of doing such at the time.)

The issues are that we are not talking to dinner or happy hour, we are talking clubbing (without me), the 10 - all weekend bachelorette parties, (mind you, the "sister" and friends are very promiscuous). Beyond that, the times my W has gone out clubbing w/ the "sister" I have not found out till after the fact, (this had only happened 3 -4 times prior to separation, to which the W would say I had no choice... that is what the girls wanted to do, was I supposed to stay behind?)

She said I have no reason not to trust her... she has never and would never cheat on me.

I told her that I know she would not intentionally cheat, but if she was to have to much to drink (W can not handle hard alcohol) and start to slip, her "sister" would not only let it happen - but would likely encourage it, especially since the "sister" has no respect for me... her reply, "the sister has no respect for herself, get over it." and that she does not think my friends would keep me from cheating. I missed the opportunity to point out that I have never gone into those environments w/out her... instead I disagreed that my friends would let me slip and cheat on her.

I reminded her all the times I told her that if she really wants to go out in these environments I would gladly go with. She responded that I'm not social w/ those people... I called BS, these women have disrespected me and our M many times, and yet I am always cordial around them.

It felt at the time, like these were her terms if we were about to R.

I told her that while this whole issue was important, especially if she feels I am being controlling, I feel we both have our points, and that we should be able to come to a compromise, its not something to throw our marriage away over.

At that point she said something like S4 is just hanging out here (her hint she was done talking) so I said thanks for talking, and wished her a good day.

At no point during the convo did we argue or interrupt.

This is the heart of our issue I have always felt, prior to this she has denied it, giving me a laundry list of other reasons.

For a few hours I felt encouraged the we were discussing a topic that played a big part in our demise, felt like progress somewhat. Later I felt frustrated as it confirmed my suspicions as to why she gave up on the M. The first time she BD was after the "sister" was texting her that she needed to "get out of my grip", "don't let him control you" and so forth. Seems like her friends are more important than her family... sad.

[Clyde]

That convo has me thinking MLC even more than before.

[Gordie]

Clyde,

Sorry, buddy. If it makes you feel better, many of the LBH (and yes, espchere have heard this exact same speech. Sorry, but your w is not original. The fact that she has enablers does make it worse, but it’s out of your control. So let it go.

[EastTN]

She said I have no reason not to trust her...

You know, no reason except the false police report, etc?

I missed the opportunity to point out that I have never gone into those environments w/out her... instead I disagreed that my friends would let me slip and cheat on her.

You absolutely missed an opportunity. The opportunity to NOT HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AT ALL! You CANNOT talk her back into your M. Logic and reason will not work. You CANNOT nice her back into you M. You need to stop trying that. All (or maybe almost all) of us here have made these exact same mistakes.

Your only hope is to focus on you. Be the best you that you can possibly be. Stop worrying about what she is doing, or who with. Stop worrying about the "sister."

Seems like her friends are more important than her family

Yes, they absolutely are. I promise that telling her that is not going to help anything.

[MoveFrwd]

I completely agree with East in that this conversation was completely unnecessary at this point. Im glad it was conducted calmly, but the fact remains that you are trying to use your logic to her emotions to get her to see 'your' side. It comes off as you trying to convince her that she is wrong for feeling what she feels/felt or doing what she is doing.

I couldn't help but tell her

You say this kind of thing a lot. You CAN help it. You CAN control yourself. You just dont WANT to.

I did not know you felt that way.

Careful with saying things like this. While Im sure she wasnt clear in communicating her needs, in her own way, I am sure that she tried to. Saying that you were oblivious to that doesnt paint you in a good picture. Its very invalidating -- "if YOU (W) had just done this better, we wouldnt be in this situation."

.. I reminded her of achievements she has made, what a phenomenal mother she is, those who look up to her, and that she had just graduated school and is starting a new career and what an accomplishment that is.

it's that she feels she should be able to do what ever she wants, like going out w/ the "sister".

You seem to be pinning this all on this/these events. But theres no way she walked out because you got upset about her going out a few times. I imagine the root cause is deeper.

I told her that I know she would not intentionally cheat, but if she was to have to much to drink (W can not handle hard alcohol) and start to slip, her "sister" would not only let it happen - but would likely encourage it, especially since the "sister" has no respect for me

To me, this is basically admitting that you DONT/DIDNT trust her. That is one level deeper than the issue you are talking about above. So why didnt you trust her?

I told her that while this whole issue was important, especially if she feels I am being controlling, I feel we both have our points, and that we should be able to come to a compromise, its not something to throw our marriage away over.

Because.....you dont think so? How would you feel or treat the other person if you knew felt undersupported and untrusted? The issues arent just the clubbing - youve got to think on a deeper level. That is just how the actual issues were manifested. She finally gets fed up enough to leave and your response is......"those reasons arent good enough. Look at all this crap I was putting up with." It just isnt going to earn you any points.

Look inward.

Seems like her friends are more important than her family... sad.

Coming from someone who was regularly working 100 hours a week? Im sure she would say that you thought "your job was more important than your family...sad"

[AnotherStander]

Oh boy. OK, incoming 2x4 warning

She said when she took it she felt like our M was strained, and reading it helped her at the moment. I replied I got that, but why did you stop thinking like that.

Because she is DONE man! Here is the situation as it stands- she's been unhappy a long time, probably years. She tried in her way to communicate it to you and felt like you didn't listen. She tried lifting herself up through messages on the Internet like that, and talking to close friends about her situation, etc. Nothing changed and she got more and more frustrated until she reached the breaking point and decided she was done. Then she became a WAS. You simply cannot talk her out of it, so quit trying.

I listened and told her wow - I did not know you felt that way... I reminded her of achievements she has made, what a phenomenal mother she is, those who look up to her, and that she had just graduated school and is starting a new career and what an accomplishment that is.

Absolutely the wrong thing to do. Read up on validation, because THAT is what you should be doing. Do you know what you did? You told her that her feelings were WRONG because of X, Y and Z. Your heart was in the right place, you were trying to lift her spirits up but you inadvertently dismissed her feelings in the process. Feelings are NOT EVER wrong, they are what that person is feeling at that moment in time. When a person shares feelings with you then you listen, validate and offer empathy. You don't tell them they are wrong, or reason or plead or explain or give examples. You just listen and validate. She says she feels she has no identity, you tell her "that sounds very frustrating, is that how you feel? I can imagine that must be very difficult to go through." You are not telling her that she has no identity (IE, agreeing with her), you are simply acknowledging her feelings. And THAT is exactly what women want from us. Listen. Understand. Validate. Support.

She said I have no reason not to trust her... she has never and would never cheat on me.

I told her that I know she would not intentionally cheat, but if she was to have to much to drink...

OK so what did you just tell her? She said you have no reason not to trust her and your response is that you don't trust her. How do you think that makes her feel? Because how she feels is everything, it's why you are where you are in your M. How can you change her feelings about you and the M?

I reminded her all the times I told her that if she really wants to go out in these environments I would gladly go with.

That sounds very controlling.

I told her that while this whole issue was important, especially if she feels I am being controlling, I feel we both have our points, and that we should be able to come to a compromise, its not something to throw our marriage away over.

She's a WAS. You can't negotiate with a WAS. She is completely done. Quit trying to talk her out of it, that's the wrong approach and is counter to DB'ing.

Later I felt frustrated as it confirmed my suspicions as to why she gave up on the M. The first time she BD was after the "sister" was texting her that she needed to "get out of my grip", "don't let him control you" and so forth. Seems like her friends are more important than her family... sad.

I really don't think the sister is your problem. Your W has issues with you and the M and that's why she's a WAS. WAS's like to surround themselves with enablers and that's what her sister is. But if it wasn't her sister it would be someone else- a friend, a coworker, an affair partner. Enablers are pretty easy to find. It's easy to blame the enablers for your sitch but that's not DB'ing either. DB'ing is looking at YOU and seeing what YOU can do differently, and doing that. It's about making YOU the better option, the spouse only a fool would leave.

[TBSakaJ9]

I liked this AS....I appreciate you posting this.

WAS's like to surround themselves with enablers and that's what her sister is. But if it wasn't her sister it would be someone else- a friend, a coworker, an affair partner. Enablers are pretty easy to find. It's easy to blame the enablers for your sitch but that's not DB'ing either.

My W has surrounded herself with new teacher friends that she has only become closer with since BD and over the past year. Those are her enablers. She does not have any communication with any of our former family friends that we used to hang out with as a couple. I am still in those circles but she is not. In the beginning I was mad at the new friends of hers but I realized that was not the source of my problems. It is easy to try to place blame on others vs looking at yourself.

It took me a little bit of time though, probably the first month or so, to realize this. They are probably supporting her like most friends would and they only know what she tells them and who knows what that is so it's really not their fault.

[Clyde]

You absolutely missed an opportunity. The opportunity to NOT HAVE THIS CONVERSATION AT ALL!

You CANNOT talk her back into your M. Logic and reason will not work. You CANNOT nice her back into you

After a long sleepless night of reasoning w/ myself I got up this a.m. feeling that way... seeing it in black and white by those who have gone through it/going through it helps cement it in.

These convos are serving some purpose, I can clearly see she wants to engage in most of them, I am starting to feel that it is her way to keep me on the hook. She brought up t-giving again last night only to get me to invite her again (which I did), she said we'll see. She left and I went looking for a 2x4 to use on myself.

[Clyde]

I did not know you felt that way.

Careful with saying things like this.
Its very invalidating -- "if YOU (W) had just done this better, we wouldnt be in this situation."

Makes perfect sense

it's that she feels she should be able to do what ever she wants, like going out w/ the "sister".

You seem to be pinning this all on this/these events. But theres no way she walked out because you got upset about her going out a few times. I imagine the root cause is deeper.

I'm gonna go into this further in a separate post... both you and Another Stander bring this up. There has been a lot of convos w/ the W, circumstances I have not disclosed, the text discouraging my W to stand and so forth that keep on highlighting this sitch.

So why didnt you trust her?

I think this might make a little more sense after I post about there past outings.

Seems like her friends are more important than her family... sad.

Coming from someone who was regularly working 100 hours a week? Im sure she would say that you thought "your job was more important than your family...sad"

I'm not going to take away from the dynamic my hours played in the sitch, however she knows my work was not more important than my family, in our recent convos that is something she as acknowledged, saying while she was not happy w/ the sitch, she saw no other way for it to unfold... I was doing all that I could. That kinda goes back to our last convo feeling like the root... it is one of the few things she has no interest in compromising in. Most of her laundry list has been gone through, w/ her making concessions on many of her reasons.