My Sitch. Further gory details in my previous threads, of course, but this might save you some trouble:
My sitch, if you haven't been following it:
One Year in.
In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. By the time of BD in January, actually when I overheard convo between her and OM talking, it would have been a stretch to say we were even "friends".
I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.
Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.
Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.
I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without explicitly promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.
A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.
At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff , and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.
We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she has been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone. Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC assigned us some reading to do as well as some self-exploration exercises, and we were supposed to circle back with her in a week or two. However, life happened and we didn't get back with MC until six weeks after that intensive.
W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling on a more regular basis, that it "helps" and that things always "seem better" right after our sessions. While she has several times mentioned IC, which we both agree is likely a must for full reconciliation, she has not yet pulled the trigger on that and has shown varying degrees of commitment to it. There have been similar ups and downs with the joint counselling-- sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse-- although she has in general been much more engaged with that than with the IC. Very recently, about a week ago (Early Jan 2018), I sat her down after she had had a late night at work and told her there were some things I needed to be able to continue: Namely, that we, both of us, take the advice given us by our MC and enter IC as well, and that she commit to working on a "full and complete" marriage--including the intimacy component-- told her i would not live in half a marriage. This did not go great, i was a bit upset, and W ended up that way too, saying she had been doing alot, and interpreting what i said as meaning i needed a sexual relationship RIGHT NOW. She was upset that, she said, she had increasingly been "letting me in", including to places and events she had shut me out, that she had been feeling increasingly close to me (this at least seemed true-- we had been becoming gradually but noticeably physically and emotionally closer) and that that talk upset her. I later clarified that i did not need sex "right now" but that i needed to know that we were working towards a relationship that included that.
MC, for her part, has said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact--generally starting small, lighter touches, progressing to more intimate.) W agreed that 1 and 2 were necessary, and is coming around about 3, but admits it feels awkward and weird. We've had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.
An incident that bears mentioning-- in October, she experienced a set-back/pull-back. She became quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even threw out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the month after that time (November) was generally stagnant, maybe even kind of a downswing. She had bounced back quite a bit from that setback, though she still has "down" spells.
I am not monitoring her regularly, though I was spot checking from time to time. I've even stopped doing that now, though last check probably a month and a half ago showed her driving by OM's old hangout... but she did not stop or go in or. And, near as I can tell, has not contacted him in any way recently.
Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and "choosing you" (i.e. selfishness). She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.) W has also turned down some of bff's other overtures that i know of, most notably to dine with bff and bff's AP.
In early December, I found out that... BFF IS DEFINITELY MOVING TO FLA (1000 miles away) when her D is final!!!! This definitely wont hurt my wife's recovery. This was supposed to happen in January but apparently has now been delayed until June (Drat.)
For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so. Since Christmas, however, I have made the time to go out a few times with friends, even without W.
In mid December, things turned a bit weird over a drunken kiss we "shared", and about her visit to a department store near OM's hangout. The details of that are extensive, and very pertinent my present sitch, and are detailed in my 8th thread which escalated ridiculously fast due to many many people chiming in with a number of insightful and thoughtful posts. In sum, it led to me questioning MY commitment to this process due to W's response (or lack thereof) to the kiss, her take on the likelihood of us getting physical ever again (not very), and my memory of her and OM in the not too distant past discussing in some detail how they were going to do that very thing. (She REALLY wants to live here, with me knowing she wanted and was willing to get it on with the OM, and at the same time telling me that that aint gonna happen with us? I tend to get madder every second i think about it.) Her sometimes shaky commitment to the process of MC and reconcilliation is also troublesome, and led to the talk mentioned above, but W seems to believe she is "committed" to this process
That shaky commitment somewhat carried over to my previous twothreads including the holidays which were... good. W did not have much if any of her usual holiday blues, spent a bunch of time doing family and holiday stuff, celebrating, etc., was very open and active and eager regarding our trip to see her folks and mine out of state, whereas previously in the fall she had seemed very reluctant and hesitant about that. We definitely warmed up a bit during the holidays themselves, and she was becoming more receptive to touch and spending time in bed closer to or holding each other.
That's about it. i was having some enlightening and detailed exchanges with Sandi2 at the end of my previous thread which no doubt would help provide some important context for my sitch, if you are interested in looking. Otherwise, we are to resume MC tomorrow for a 1 hour session, again in a week, and, then, at W's suggestion (how about that?) an intensive 2 hour plus 2 hour day three weeks hence in the MC's office (the shorter sessions we usually do via skype.) I have told W i expect us to enter into IC as well, and MC has inicated that she (MC) is going to bring this up in our next session but that, at the end of the day, W has to make the decision to do it.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Has your W ever done individual IC before herself? I don't remember that from your threads, so if you mentioned it, sorry. I know I was terrified of going by myself, and really had to force myself to get started, and had family and friends on standby to get me there if I felt I couldn't do it myself.
Perhaps offering to go with her and sit in the waiting room, maybe go out afterwards for something she likes (special dinner, dancing, what ever) might help. I wouldn't offer the special thing before hand, but do it afterwards as a fun way to recover from the first IC session. I only made it in by myself because of the fear and panic of losing my wife and family. I had tried to go before several times over the years and failed to pull the trigger on going.
Just a thought about the IC.
Beyond that, stay strong and patient. Smooth road and all that. It seems like progress is being made. That's not nothing!
Me: Mid 40s W : Early 40s M:11 T:13 S, D, both 7-10 BD : 11/2017 Separation : 1/18
Hey Jim, I just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about you. In fact, I spent the better part of the day writing out a post. I think I broke my record, and probably everyone's record, for lengthy posts. It was so long, it wore me out just proof reading it.
Anyway, I'll have to seriously cut it down, or just start over. I will try to do better tomorrow.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Hey Jim, I just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about you. In fact, I spent the better part of the day writing out a post. I think I broke my record, and probably everyone's record, for lengthy posts. It was so long, it wore me out just proof reading it. blush
Anyway, I'll have to seriously cut it down, or just start over. I will try to do better tomorrow.
Hey Sandi, np. Thanks again for taking the time... I know you are in demand around here!
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
Jim, whatever happened with last Friday when W's BFF was supposed to join y'all?
Mostly uneventful. W had sort of insinuated without asking directly that she would like to invite bff and i had sort of insinuated that we all knew the score and were adults and it was up to her. I figured bff would decline. She (bff) sorta kinda called my bluff. When texted me that I could come pick her up to go out from restaurant she was at with bff, I ubered over to get her, and bff was still there. I was cordial to bff and my usual charming, witty self to W. Bff hung with us for about 15 to 20 mins and then left on her own to go home (which worried W a little because they had had a couple of drinks--I offered to call her an uber but she said "no im okay"). She (bff) even gave me hug when she left (wasn't that sweet of her? I felt like Fredo in "The Godfather" getting the hug and kiss before he got whacked.) No substantive conversation, all chitchat. Bff at one point tried to turn the convo toward her and her H's (my own bf) pending D, and I was like "nope, not talking about that!" which bff took in stride.
Rest of the evening was a fairly typical recent one for W and I-- saw a band, had a couple of drinks, lots of laughs and talking, with my arm around her loosely or legs touching under the table. The band asked us to come up and sing with them once, which was cool.
Wednesday's MC session not very noteworthy, either. MC and I both pushed the IC issue with W, MC very persuasively relating it to a lot of the things W was saying, and W seemed somewhat persuaded-- plan is to work some IC into our intensive day-long session on 2/21. W is still "all over the place" emotionally. Some days she "feels really close to me" and other days she wonders where we are going. Some days she really likes how attentive I am and our frequent communication and interaction and then other days she wonders if its just because im checking up on her and want to "know if she's there"-- she's still not used to us being so close after so many years of... not that. And her thoughts are constantly changing, she says. One day she'll have a thought and then the next day a completely different one or she'll see her yesterday thought and say "what was I thinking that doesn't make sense." She didn't elaborate but MC said that's the exact kind of thing that would be good fodder for IC. She said again it frustrates her a little when I am upset like I was last week when she was late getting back from work and had her wrong turn, or when my buttons get easily pushed when she wants to see her girlfriends, but she understands that that's on her and that she "did it to herself."
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
That's good that there will be some IC in the intensive sessions. Being able to say things you wouldn't say in front of your H or W can be very helpful, and let you work through them. As I'm sure you're well aware. I'm rooting for you guys.
Me: Mid 40s W : Early 40s M:11 T:13 S, D, both 7-10 BD : 11/2017 Separation : 1/18
To speak to what Sandi said regarding men in the more traditional role and being the pursuers and the "man" so to speak, I can say it is very true. And I am a liberated woman, lol. It seems as if you let her do most of the chasing and were the submissive one and then everything kind of ceased. I, personally, have been on my own since young. Paid my bills, worked, and then after divorce did everything on my own. I make all the decisions. I handled the bills, phone calls, ect. in the marriage. I don't "need" a man. But I very much appreciate a man who knows I can handles things, but still is the "man" in the relationship. Pursues me, is decisive, initiates. Makes plans. Fixes things. Carries heavy stuff. There has to be some passion.
I have an idea, and if anyone thinks I am off on this, please chime in. You need to change things up. The same bar/band thing every weekend. Take a break from that. Take the initiative and book a fancy resturaunt. Tell her to be ready at a certain time. Heck, even pick out an outfit for her. Get a limo with champagne. DO something where you take control, make her feel special, it's just the two of you without big crowds and music. Table the heavy relationship talk.
Yeah, in some ways I agree. I am decisive/adept/etc in most of those areas with her-- fixing things, moving things, plans stuff for the family and for us, but not yet so much in romance, although i conduct myself confidently in the things we DO do.
Only thing is I don't want to come on too strong on the romance too soon... but is that just being stupid at this point? When we were dating I would have (and did do) all of those kinds of things-- always coming up with different things to do, romantic little getaways, etc. But... things are different now(?) This is really the tightrope I am walking here. If this were ANY OTHER GIRL...I'd be doing things differently. But maybe I shouldn't be approaching it that way? IDK.
Here's a little tidbit and maybe it is misleading as it is from the "Devil's mouth" (her bff), but... way back in September (and we were not even quite 2 months in to "no contact" and A recovery, etc, and she and definitely bff had had the "this outside relationship should not be an impediment to figuring things out with your M" mindset), bff had told her shortly before our own anniversary when I had had talk with W about not feeling comfortable at that point "celebrating" the date even as I wanted us to recognize it (this was all in one of my threads) that: "Well, at the point you guys are at in the process, he should have had something planned..." Now, maybe that's just bff rabble rousing against me. And maybe it's just stupid because no way was our timeline that far along at that point (or maybe W thought it was or should be?) but maybe a grain of truth there as well.
I know she wants that... as an abstraction. But would me making that move at this point be a positive or negative?
Valentines Day coming up... maybe for that(?) I had been going to give her a weekend away at a ski lodge for V-Day, but hadn't thought about what to actually do on the day, go out or whatever. Be interested in takes, here.
Also, Sandi2, if you're out there, sounded like you had plenty to say... I am still eager to hear!
HJ
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
