My Journey with WAS (Part 7)

[Maika]

Yup, same here. What are the goals you are working on?

My main priorities right now are - working out, climbing, eating well, taking my meds, reading, and playing a musical instrument. I have built that into my schedule and that strategy has worked really well. Even though I had written them down previously, I realized that I needed to put them in my calendar and make time for it. It's really worked well that way. I am also still trying to improve my time with the kids and being more chill and relaxed with them - there is great improvement in that area, but I still have some impulse reactions that I need to work on.

It is definitely a weird place to be in and I wonder the same things. If you get the answer let me know because I have been struggling with this one.

Yeah, I toyed with the idea of making a pro/con list about why I wanted to work on the MR and what W brought to my life, but I am hesitant to do that for some reason. I feel like it might just push me over the edge and that there are things that I might not have thought through really well yet. I don't think I can work on the MR with just the kids as my motivation. She has to bring her A game to it and I just have some non-negotiables that I can't ignore anymore.
I am wondering if my desire to work on the MR was tied to me 'winning' this fight and appeasing my ego, rather than seeing what she truly brings to the marriage. I miss the intimacy and connection, but you can build that with someone else too. I guess I need a lot more than just nostalgia for things to work out.

Over time I have felt the distance creep in as well. At times I really find it hard to believe that this MR could ever be reconciled. I have no idea what she does in her spare time, what she is thinking and since my communication with her is no more than 5 min or so per weak I don't see how we could ever move forward

Yeah same here with the distance creep. I also don't know if she considers being a 50% parent as a loss to her. She's out doing her thing and I am not sure where the kids fit in her priorities. I also have no idea what she does with her time and I barely see her. I think that I will have to make the decision in this scenario and I am just trying to make sure that I am in a place where I am okay with it.

I pray that you will get the clarity you need. I have been praying for this as well. Maybe I have been getting the signs though and have just been ignoring them.

Thanks man! Same to you. I don't think we can always get 100% clarity, but I think we can get enough to make a good decision. I ask myself why would I want to hang in when W just blew things up, didn't even entertain a second chance, has shown no remorse, and doesn't want to be with me. Why expend one ounce of energy on her when she's had chances to do something but didn't. For me, it's like the years we had together didn't mean enough for her to even at least try. Instead she walked out and made a decision that impacted three other people. I am not saying she didn't consider it, but it didn't matter. So, why should I sit here and stand when she didn't even allow an opportunity to just 'try'. The relationship didn't hold enough water to just 'try', not giving guarantees that it will work out, but just 'try'.

So, I am getting closer to just moving on with my life. My new mantra is 'I am waiting for me'. I am not waiting for her. Working on my goals is going to get me there and when I do, I will know enough to make a decision about where I want to go.

I really feel done right now. I know it will ebb and flow, but my emotions haven't been on a spectrum in a while now and so I think I am getting more settled and grounded. I love my goals and what I am doing. I am accomplishing everything and it is just bringing me so much joy. I don't want to waste a second on her anymore.

[NicoleR]

Hi Maika, as I wrote on my thread recently, I was reading about separation and divorce statistics and it sounds like the best case scenario after someone decides to separate is a 5 - 10% chance of reconciliation. Even then I imagine those few who reconcile have a lot of long-term hurt and anger and the relationship will never be the same. One of my former neighbors was getting divorced and said "do everything possible to avoid divorce, but if it has to happen, do it quickly."

I know DB suggests NC and to give the other spouse time and space but there comes a time when you're waiting for nothing. If the other spouse doesn't show any signs of interest after months of you doing everything you can, and you find yourself ready to let go, then I imagine the only other considerations are your kids and the financial aspect of divorce.

I'm sure others who are more experienced can say a lot more, but just in my own mind I feel like there needs to be some last attempt to save the marriage other than just endless NC. Like DB says at the very end of it all, say you're going to file for divorce and plan to follow-through. The final hope at that point is the other person will 'wake up.' If they don't, it's over.

I wanted so badly to save my marriage. I've been stuck in this crisis with my husband for over two years and now he's done. In your case you sound like you're in a better position to move on. If you're still young and have other prospects then you should be able to get through this although facing the reality that the marriage is ending once the divorce is happening is still sad. Breaking apart a family is terribly sad even if there are other things to be happy and thankful for.

[Maika]

Even then I imagine those few who reconcile have a lot of long-term hurt and anger and the relationship will never be the same

I've followed some piecing threads here and it looks really hard. I believe it when people say that piecing is way harder than being in this position right now. That's why it's important for me to have my non-negotiables. I don't want to do all that work if W isn't full in.

but just in my own mind I feel like there needs to be some last attempt to save the marriage other than just endless NC.

Ahhh! Endless NC. I like that lol. Well, it does feel like that right now. I don't have any expectations from it, but it just seems like a long frikkin' tunnel. The only expectation from all of this NC is that when I get out of it, I am a better and stronger person. I don't expect anything from her. And at this point, the last thing I have is filing for D. As I said, I'll do that when I am ready and I can go either way - divorced or piecing. But both options have their requirements and so lets see what happens.

Breaking apart a family is terribly sad even if there are other things to be happy and thankful for.

Yeah I feel for my kids mostly. What really gets me is that she didn't even want to 'try', which could've led to better outcomes for everyone I believe. But, she's in her own world and that trumped everything else.

AnotherStander brings up the point about timing a lot. That in most cases the WAS will want to attempt recon. If I could draw that timing from the WAS and LBS into Venn diagrams, the intersection point seems very small. And even though we're on their timeline for a recon attempt, I'd rather just figure out a timeline for my needs and accomplish that.

I am getting mentally stronger and physically better and 2018 is going to be my year of finally doing the transformation that I've always wanted to do but couldn't because I was stuck in my depression. I've had some great insights into why I was essentially sabotaging myself in my goals in the past and I have been able to overcome them slowly.

I am not bragging or anything, but I know the game that I bring as a partner and a father, and it is in the top 5% of men out there. So, it's her loss in the end.

[TBSakaJ9]

My main priorities right now are - working out, climbing, eating well, taking my meds, reading, and playing a musical instrument. I have built that into my schedule and that strategy has worked really well.

A very strong list, very similar to mine. Replace climbing with basketball and replace taking meds with attending church weekly and we are there. I took Guitar lessons about 10 years ago but then stopped playing when we had kids. I have recently picked it up again and have enjoyed it.

Yeah, I toyed with the idea of making a pro/con list about why I wanted to work on the MR and what W brought to my life, but I am hesitant to do that for some reason. I feel like it might just push me over the edge and that there are things that I might not have thought through really well yet.

Dude, same here. When I think about the pros and cons its tough. Kids will adjust so you definitely have to have more of a reason than that to just keep the family together. If she didn't bring her A game before is it foolish to think that all of a sudden they would start?

I think at first it is ego, then you start missing the connection but over time your ego heals and you realize you can function fine without the connection so then you really start to think about why you love your spouse.

I also don't know if she considers being a 50% parent as a loss to her.

I know my W sees this as a benefit. During kid drop off last night she said to me...."Isn't it a good feeling to not have any kid responsibilities for a week"? A few months ago she also made the comment that not having the kids for a week is "the reward". I have no doubts where my W's head is at.

I ask myself why would I want to hang in when W just blew things up, didn't even entertain a second chance, has shown no remorse, and doesn't want to be with me. Why expend one ounce of energy on her when she's had chances to do something but didn't. For me, it's like the years we had together didn't mean enough for her to even at least try. Instead she walked out and made a decision that impacted three other people. I am not saying she didn't consider it, but it didn't matter.

Amen! When you put it like this it makes me want to call my W on the phone right now and say I am moving forward! Your W might have tried in her own way but she never told you so you both never had an opportunity to try together. That still upsets me the most.

I am accomplishing everything and it is just bringing me so much joy. I don't want to waste a second on her anymore.

That's awesome, good for you. I always thought my W was a fool, I know what I bring to the table. I slacked off for the last year so for me it was getting my mojo back.

[TBSakaJ9]

One of my former neighbors was getting divorced and said "do everything possible to avoid divorce, but if it has to happen, do it quickly."

I had a buddy tell me the same thing. He said it is better to make it happen quick before OM or OW get involved because when they do your spouse changes and they start asking and doing things they never did before.

He said him as his W started off with amicable D talks but they all changed when she found OM and he was in the picture.

[Maika]

Replace climbing with basketball and replace taking meds with attending church weekly and we are there. I took Guitar lessons about 10 years ago but then stopped playing when we had kids. I have recently picked it up again and have enjoyed it.

Niicceee!!!! You got a pretty strong list going on yourself.

If she didn't bring her A game before is it foolish to think that all of a sudden they would start?

Exactly. So, that's why without genuine remorse and apology and really pushing to work things out, it's not a serious attempt at recon.

I know my W sees this as a benefit.

I am fairly certain my W sees it this way as well. I just can't understand it. I don't know how you can't see this as a serious loss.

Amen! When you put it like this it makes me want to call my W on the phone right now and say I am moving forward! Your W might have tried in her own way but she never told you so you both never had an opportunity to try together. That still upsets me the most.

haha yeh! I wanna call her up and say the same and move on. Maybe W tried in her way to say something, but if she could clearly come out and say that she wanted to separate, why couldn't see say whatever else she wanted. Not finding an opportunity to even 'try' together is still pretty upsetting. Makes my last decade of life look fairly useless. Feels like I lost a whole chunk of my life with someone for whom it doesn't seem to have meant anything if they could just throw me to the curb like dirty trash.

That's awesome, good for you. I always thought my W was a fool, I know what I bring to the table. I slacked off for the last year so for me it was getting my mojo back

Same here. I slacked off because I was depressed and I have been to hell and back many times with what's happened to my life before BD. $hit I lived in hell for many years - they have a seat for me there. So, now that I am getting my mojo back, I know that my game is in the top percentile and I won't settle for mediocrity. And I know you won't either J.

Our W's have to rise up just like we are rising up. Without that, it's not worth the time or the effort.

As I said - I am waiting for me.

[Verum]

Not finding an opportunity to even 'try' together is still pretty upsetting. Makes my last decade of life look fairly useless. Feels like I lost a whole chunk of my life with someone for whom it doesn't seem to have meant anything if they could just throw me to the curb like dirty trash.

I wonder if you asked your W, would she say she did try?

Reading the thread, this idea that the W will not even try stuck out at me because I of course feel the same way in my sitch. However, my W has told me she tried. Her idea of trying is a lot different than mine. In my W's case, her "trying" was that she didn't leave a year or two ago, that she "tried" to love me (whatever that means).

Anyway, just throwing the idea out there that in their mind, they may have tried.

[Subitai]

That is my WaWs position, too. She tried for a few years without me on board and says she should have left me years ago.

[Maika]

Fast & Sub - sorry I didn't clarify what I meant by 'try'.

What I meant by it is that W didn't want to 'try' to even salvage the marriage and went the BD route. Meaning she didn't tell me she was unhappy and wanted things to change.

I see no real evidence of her 'trying' during our marriage. When I think of 'trying', I think of a concerted effort by both people to address issues in the marriage. For this, these issues have to be put out in the open.

'Trying' is not some covert black ops where one party is trying to do something behind the scenes without the other person knowing. That is one person doing things with whatever mind reading they're doing about the other person.

What I am upset about is that she didn't ever bring up any issues during the MR - and I have wracked my brains to remember any conversations about any issues and I can't recall any - and then suddenly just doing BD and not even wanting to 'try' to salvage the relationship. So, the decade plus of us being married and together didn't mean enough to even 'try' on her part - which is why I feel like I just lost a chunk of my life that I will never get back because it didn't mean enough to the other person.

I want to say I am strictly talking about my sitch. I know there are others here where their WAS/WW/WH have brought up issues that were not taken seriously by the LBS, or were not understood as serious.

Them 'trying' in the background is not 'trying' when the LBS has no idea what the issues are and cannot contribute to a truly collaborative effort. Marriage is not a one-way street.

[Verum]

Maika, I think I agree with you.

My W also never brought up issues in our MR. I had to discover any issues though following MWD advice in DB-ing and doing 180s on them. Keeping a journal helped me identify issues. My W's communication continues to be indirect and via innuendo. I now find myself sometimes saying to her, just tell me what you want.

If you asked my W did she try, she will say yes. To her trying is very different than what I or you consider trying. To her, not asking for a D two years ago is trying. I can guess, although she doesn't tell me, that her trying was going to the movies on a Friday with me even though she didn't want to, having sex even though she didn't want to, putting her cell phone down to listen to how my day at work was, etc. Just staying in the MR was trying.

What my W has never done is accept that any of her behaviors contribute to the health of our MR. As MWD says, it takes only one to tango. I did all the 180s, I read relationship books, and I think -- no I know, I'm a much better partner now. My W was ready to D in 2013 but my DB-ing turned the sitch around. We failed in reconciliation partly because my W was not really committed and unwilling to take any positive actions. I remember following the DB advice to ask for what you want. I had read the Five Love Languages book and recognized our love languages. I would ask my W, if you do this little thing it helps make me feel loved. She would do it once and then not again.

Why do our WAW not try? I suspect my W and many others feel they are already good partners in the MR and all the problems are due to their spouses (us). Whereas I feel I have grown and become a better partner, my W has not changed that aspect in these five years.

I remember during reconciliation a conversations with my W and she said a MR should NOT be work -- "it just is". She really believes that a MR is good just because the partners love each other and it shouldn't take any effort. To my W, love can come and go, and you can do nothing about it. If this is the worldview of a WAW, then there is no sense in "trying" because you cannot change love or the MR.

So, I do agree with you that our WAS have not really tried to identify issues in the MR and address them. I believe the reason is they have a very different worldview. Cadet has said "love is a choice", but the WAW doesn't believe it is a choice. To the WAW, it either exists or doesn't exist.

In the WAW's perspective, not having ended the MR sooner and sticking around was 'trying'.