Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

[doodler]

You could book a Christmas cruise for the family. That would get everyone away from electronics and BFFs and it could be a good setting for reconnecting. (And since you're paying, I could chaperone.)

[Verum]

Definitely buy her something nice, but not over the top. For example, a scarf with a Christmas card and short personal note. Let her gift to you outshine your gift to her.

[Gordie]

HJ,

Think you are getting excellent advice especially from the former WWs. As a fellow in the same ugly boat, have been following along and wishing the best for you but don’t have much advice to offer. Please, please, please follow the advice of other and get busy creating your own awesome life. You are a starving man so the crumbs your w is giving you look amazing...but remember that they are just crumbs and that you deserve so much more than crumbs.

[artista]

i highly doubt her gift to him will outshine his gift to her...

[hoosjim]

i highly doubt her gift to him will outshine his gift to her...

Well, I mean that's really the issue, now, isn't it?

I know at this point based on her hints that she's at least getting me a very nice pair of leather boots I've been looking at... think they're $300 a pair. This is a step up from where we were back in September, where we didn't get each other anything for the anniversary and we actually spoke about it before hand... me telling her it didn't necessarily feel right under the circumstances celebrating the anniversary of our "old" marriage, and since we were only a few weeks into her "recovery" even though I thought we should mark the occasion by going out (which we did.) We didn't get each other any gifts, then. Her bff apparently thought I was punk for doing so because "at that point we were at he should've had something planned." Whatever.

On my birthday back in April, she gave me a gift card, but nothing else. I had the kids get her something for her May birthday, but I did not, as she was at that was a pretty tumultuous point and A was still going on.

Now, she seems to be shaking off her usual holiday funk. Last weekend I went out and spent a lot of time getting some new lights and then putting them all around the house so the place would look real nice when S19 got back from college this Friday He told me a few weeks back that he really liked it when he came back from wherever and saw the house all lit up with lights-- which we have done fairly frequently though not every year since he was little. I've also just been in a good mood lately-- feeling the spirit of the season-- whistling, singing, etc. Then, yesterday, W became real energized and started dragging out our boxes of Christmas stuff to put around the house, looking through and bringing out old Christmas photos, and seeming pretty happy about it. So, a bit of a change from the last few years for her when the holidays have been a really down time. She's also had opportunity to drag out our old wedding pics due to a project her sister is doing for their parents for Christmas-- making a photo album for their folks. This didn't seem to bother her and she seemed okay with it, even showing me a couple.

So, anyway, yeah... her head is still, idunno. Not sure as we all know on the "commitment to fixing the MR" thing-- though this is certain to be discussed in counseling this week. (As an aside in this regard--she called me today and wants to set up a double date for us and another couple that she knows this weekend-- was asking me if I knew where any good bands were playing since I have been doing a lot of that in recent months) That said, she seems significantly to somewhat more "into" the season this year, including in terms of gift giving. I just want to make sure I am giving that the appropriate level of attention from my end under the circumstances.

[hoosjim]

And more color on W's getting "into the spirit"-- don't know if it had any impact but I am assuming it might have, but MC on Wednesday had made it a point to think positive and go into things "thinking they will work out" rather than "thinking that they will fail or suck", because if you do the latter, chances are they will "fail or suck." That in response to W's worries about WON we would ever be able to restore any kind of intimate R, as well as to her annual holiday blues.

For my part, I've just been trying to enjoy myself as much as possible wherever possible.

[artista]

i highly doubt her gift to him will outshine his gift to her...

Well, I mean that's really the issue, now, isn't it?

I know at this point based on her hints that she's at least getting me a very nice pair of leather boots I've been looking at... think they're $300 a pair. This is a step up from where we were back in September, where we didn't get each other anything for the anniversary and we actually spoke about it before hand...

yes... it can be seen as a step up in the external sense... i hope your counseling goes well... i hope you are able to glean something concrete regarding your circumstances...

--artista

[DonH]

Have not heard from you all week Jim. Hope you are doing okay. I know you were sort of at another crossroads last week. Hopefully you'll update soon!

[Zues126]

HJ, thanks for the kind post. I'm sorry it took so long for me to get back to you.

One of the hardest things is trying to make sense of what is going on when the universe seems to be falling apart. I just posted something on my thread in the 'surviving the big D' section you are feel to explore.

First though I'll copy my post about the card game I referenced. Keep posting.

It reminds me of the card game I've posted a few times, originally for my old buddy Pyrite:

I read your post this morning but had to work all day and then had kid time tonight, this was my first chance to get back to you. I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.

There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.

In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.

Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.

You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.

***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***

I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"

So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.

BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.

-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.

-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.

[hoosjim]

Quick update, more later.

Weird, eventful week. Had MC on Wednesday. Talked some about commitment to the process.W says she is, and she's trying, but intimacy piece is hard. W says when she is out with me, she often thinks/feels "this is fun, I like this, I like him, I can go home and give him a kiss (or more) but then when she gets home she starts feeling weird/reluctant/hesitant and the barriers go up. MC wondwring if there are "ghosts" for us in the house. She did touch ME in passing today. Very warmly in kind of a caressing way... like she hasn't done in a loooong time. Kind of took me aback. I also spoke about being kind of weirded out that I felt completely unattracted to her for a stretch after the kiss incident LW.

W herself set up double date with another couple for Friday... my plan had been to back off a bit and lay low. Was a very fun evening, she receptive to my arm around her, and to being hugged. BUT... she has slept downstairs on couch now 4 of past 6 nights. She said "nothings wrong" this morn when she came up... "just fell asleep and couldn't get up" but... tonight she's down there again. Fell asleep watching tv. I asked if she was coming up and she said "yes, in a minute" in very drowsy voice, but never made it up.

Everyone seems in holiday spirit, including W, with S19 home from college. W happier about holidays than I have seen in a long time, but...

She's become funny about church last few,weeks. Finding excyses not to go or goes alone. Also not taking communion.

Interesting convo with her friend and coworker at a work party. Not sure,how much stock to put as I know this person did cover for her once being out of office with OM... but don't know for sure if she knew W was with OM. Anyhoo, this friend said W is really trying, she sees all these changes in me but some of it is,really weird for her, especially my desire,for intimacy because I didn't want that for so long. Said W was "shocked" I actually kissed her. She didn't think I would. Also said she has several times mentioned IC because she is so "screwed up" but does not know WON to ho to MC (who knows our case) or to find someone else but... she def feels like she needs to talk on her own, just can't quite pull ttigger.
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