Lost on how to save my marriage! 4

[Holding]

JoeJoe, I'm glad things seemed to go ok with the MC. I do think it svcks that you didn't really get any clarity from your W on things though. But then again, she needs to be 100% on board with the MC for it to have any real value. When is your next session?

Did you apologize because you thought it was the right thing to do for yourself? If so, I don't think you should count it as a regret. You do need to avoid looking at her phone again though, if for no one else than yourself.

[sandi2]

As for the other phone situation. There might be one. But I don't see any indicators to support that.

Neither did my H, or the other H's that were duped. That's why it's referred to as "going underground". Your W has not exhibited any signs of going through withdrawals from the affair, from what I can determine from your posts. Instead, she is showing signs of still being contact with her lover.

I will take this day by day, and look for the baby steps.

Okay, what do you consider being baby steps for her?

[hoosjim]

As for the other phone situation. There might be one. But I don't see any indicators to support that.

My wife had a burner phone on three occasions (same phone the first two.) I am with Sandi2, here, that your W definitely could still have one. You need to be tuned in to how she is acting. Don't know if you play poker, but everyone, and I mean EVERYONE has personal "tells" that indicate when they are doing or feeling particular things. My own W is particularly transparent, but if you are observant you can pick up on anybody's tells with a little practice. When your W was communicating with OM on her regular phone, how did she act? Is she doing anything similar now? Disappearing at odd times? Hiding/gaurding her purse?

You and others are right, of course, that snooping (while sometimes necessary and acceptable if done OCCASIONALLY and not compulsively) is, by and large, a pretty uncomfortable thing to do and, while often informative, almost never makes you feel any better. Sometimes, though, you just gotta know, for any number of reasons. If you suspect she has a burner phone, try planting a recorder at home when you know she is going to be there and you wont, or in her car. If she is using a burner phone, you will quickly find out. But be extremely careful when doing such things. Snooping and getting caught really does do some damage to the relationship, however justified it may look subjectively or even objectively at the time, AND it can become a compulsion (a very damaging one, particularly to yourself) if you are not measured, careful and, yes, detached.

I personally did not have to do any extra snooping on my W to discover the first burner she had. She left it out in plain sight and it rang while I was standing like three feet away. The second time (same phone) I overheard her talking on it once when I came back into the house and she started doing a LOT of sneaking out of the room and handbag guarding and obviously hiding something when I would come into the room and such. The last time, she just started acting really weird, and furtive, and she had been acting pretty suspiciously, had a couple big blocks of unaccounted for time out of the house and so I did, that time, check her purse... where I found the phone. And that and the subsequent fallout nearly ended things for us.... Although, if things end up working out for us it will, conversely, end up having been the final catalyst moving us in that direction.

One final thing to keep in mind, and take this as you will: If your W is bound and determined to contact OM no matter what... then there is pretty much nothing you can do about it. You can't monitor every aspect of someone's life 24/7, and in this day and age there are just way way WAY too many ways to contact someone surreptitiously. It boggled my mind when I started looking into all of the "secret" texting and chat apps that are available. If someone is careful, and determined, it is quite possible to carry on an electronic relationship without getting caught. In the end you need to be able to trust the individual.

[joejoe1]

Sandi,

I feel you on no withdrawls. I can't put my finger on it. It's almost like she stop talking to the OM cold turkey. I have checked all kind of places. There's is nothing happening on none of the computers or home phone in the house. They only time I can think of, is when she goes out. The only other place I can see her keeping it, is on her body at all times. I spent a whole week at home with her last week and we talked almost the whole time, and was around each other almost the whole time.

I literally lost on this, because I have been looking for the signs of a WW, and the withdrawals and keeping in contact because of the addiction aspect.

Is it a possibility that she truly stop talking to the OM cold turkey? Sandi have you ever seen it before?

Some days, I just want to not ever worry about it, and say I'm the better M, so why even search for anything. Just worry about myself and keep moving forward. But, we all know we need concrete evidence to prove what our WS are doing.

I consider baby steps, her starting to hold conversations with me. Her considering on possibly staying in the M. Her considering getting a job to add income to our home. Her asking me for help. She wouldn't ask me for help for anything a while ago. Her saying she wanted to have sex, but she didn't want it to be bad. Or these not baby steps, do you see it as cake eating?

Last week she asked me what do I really want. I told her to save the marriage and she said, "oh really".

Sandi, give me your take. I will keep my eyes open.

[joejoe1]

hoosjim,

She is not guarding a thing. She leaves her purse out, her phone out. She fall asleep and let the phone all the time. She doesn't really go accounted for to much. The only time, I can see like I said is when she is out.

Actually she has been communicating better with since, I told her to get out, last time I saw them communicating. I told her to leave, get her Sh$t and go. She sent the OM a message right in front of. I have seen on communication since then. It's very strange, I must say. She decided to go to MC after having a long talk to her dad.

She actually became nicer, and easier to be around. She has said the same about me. I'm easier to be around.

I guess I don't want to kick a can with nothing in it. I looking for a slip up. Everybody slips up. What's in the dark will come to the light.

The thing I think will be a confirmation will be that VAR. Where did you get yours?

[hoosjim]

The thing I think will be a confirmation will be that VAR. Where did you get yours?

Do not take this as an endorsement or recommendation, and all my previous caveats apply, but...

There's about a million on Amazon. Best ones are ones that look like something else (thumb drive, pen, etc.) Best hiding place in cars, IMO, is between the headliner and the roof, if you can wedge it up there-- best acoustically and no one ever looks there. Be aware that your Amazon account (if W has access) has a "history" that can be searched... not just what you have purchased but what you have searched for. Also, for surveillance devices, a lot of states wont let them be shipped to P.O. Boxes, so they have to come to your house-- also risky. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, recording other folks' conversations without their knowledge and permission is, in many if not most places, illegal. And I don't just mean illegal in the sense of being inadmissible in divorce court, I mean illegal as in it's a crime and can get YOU in trouble, so I do not recommend you do this and, if you do do it, I strongly recommend that you check the laws in your jurisdiction first.

IF you do it, be measured, be careful, and don't get caught. And, if for some reason you use the information you gain to confront your W (which is an entirely separate scenario an which entire books could be written and on which opinions vary widely), do NOT go straight off in a rage to confront her (remember you are cool, calm and collected at all times) and if/when you do tell her what you know do NOT tell her how you gathered the info. (Remember, it's likely illegal and in the end she doesn't need to know how you know... just that you did check up on her and you found out.)

Final thought/caution/caveat: Be careful. Snooping can damage trust, on both sides. You can't "unhear" things that you might hear, which can dampen your enthusiasm for reconciling with your W and lead to scars that might take years (if ever) to heal (I don't know if I will ever be able to get out of my head the sound of my W's tearful voice telling OM "I just want to jump on you and run away with you" or the sound of them kissing) and, should your W find out, it will be one more thing she needs to overcome in her head and to forgive you for-- it could irretrievably derail any efforts you are making at reconciling. It can become an obsession (I have come close here myself) and completely undermine what otherwise might have been a marriage on the way to recovery. Take look at Coconut's sitch here, in particular. As with any sitch, hindsight is 20-20 here, and there is never any way to be certain what might have happened had things gone differently, but coconut himself will probably tell you that he focused too much on the OM, including WRT the surveillance on his wife, and it made him very hard to stay detached and work confidently and comfortably on DB-ing. I probably did a poor job of describing his sitch right there, but the important thing to remember is that surveillance and snooping CAN be counterproductive and CAN backfire, despite whatever information you might glean from doing so.

Hope this helps. FWIW, from your recent posts it sounds to me as if your W may actually be turning away from at least that sort of contact with OM, though I admit I have not studied your sitch in detail and will defer to Sandi2 ultimately on the diagnosis and evaluation of WW's-- she's an ace and you should heed her words carefully.

[joejoe1]

Hoos,

I really don't want to snoop. I want to worry more about myself. I hate the way I feel when I snoop. I also think snooping shows insecurity. I just want to be so confident in myself that i don't care what she is doing. Because we are meant to be she will stop. I don't want to be help back because of snooping. But, it can become addictive. Damit.

I hope she has stopped. But Sandi, has been dealing with WW and LBS for years. I'm new this game, so I will take all the advice I can get.

I will think about the VAR.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=joejoe1]Sandi,

I feel you on no withdrawls. I can't put my finger on it. It's almost like she stop talking to the OM cold turkey. I have checked all kind of places. There's is nothing happening on none of the computers or home phone in the house. They only time I can think of, is when she goes out. The only other place I can see her keeping it, is on her body at all times. I spent a whole week at home with her last week and we talked almost the whole time, and was around each other almost the whole time.

I literally lost on this, because I have been looking for the signs of a WW, and the withdrawals and keeping in contact because of the addiction aspect.

the theories about withdrawal and addiction are theories. YES there is some empirical data that says it often applies, but it's not solid or always applicable.

So don't make yourself nuts by becoming the "A/addiction/police" thinking that if you cannot see overt suffering from her OR anger from her,

then she must be hiding something. This is ^^ crazy making.

And It also undermines the work you have done on yourself and denies her ability to see it.

I don't mean to rub it in your face, but you had some elemental deficits in the m, so it's not like she's been lying to you for years and even though you thought everything was great, she was lying the whole time!" NOT accurate.


Is it a possibility that she truly stop talking to the OM cold turkey? Sandi have you ever seen it before?

Some days, I just want to not ever worry about it, and say I'm the better M, so why even search for anything. Just worry about myself and keep moving forward. But, we all know we need concrete evidence to prove what our WS are doing.


why would you need concrete evidence NOW? She's not on board reconciling yet.

If she wants out of the m, you will know. How? Because she'll tell you, and or she will leave.

Your situation is not like others in that she was doing some long term deceit - while faking happily married.

It's not as if she said "Joe, all is great & I'm so happy with you!!" while lying to you. She outright told you she wanted OM.


I consider baby steps, her starting to hold conversations with me. Her considering on possibly staying in the M.

one of these^^ is mind reading, the other is an observation you can interpret. See the difference?


Her considering getting a job to add income to our home.

This^^ has been a sore subject you said you wish you'd handled very differently. How's that going?


Her asking me for help. She wouldn't ask me for help for anything a while ago. Her saying she wanted to have sex, but she didn't want it to be bad. Or these not baby steps, do you see it as cake eating?


First, I don't know what it means that she did not want the sex "to be bad."

Is she referring to the act itself, or how you both would feel afterwards?

As for cake eating, I'll quote my DB coach. "At the beginnning of DBing, all WAS's 'cake eat' b/c they don't want to be married and the LBSer's do."

And how would intimacy be cake eating for her? (I'm asking).

[sandi2]

I feel you on no withdrawls. I can't put my finger on it. It's almost like she stop talking to the OM cold turkey.

If she's stop contact, she'll go into withdrawals. She'll be terribly moody and unhappy, restless, maybe sleepless, maybe pace the floor, impatient, can't find anything to hold her interest, and she'll battle the craving to contact OM.....just as any drug addict needing a fix. Any means of communication (computer, phone, etc.) will be a source of temptation for a while. She'll be pretty miserable.

Is it a possibility that she truly stop talking to the OM cold turkey? Sandi have you ever seen it before?

I stopped contact cold turkey. And I immediately went into withdrawals that lasted about six or seven months! The depression continued even longer, but at least it was not the hard withdrawals I had previously. But that was me, and every person varies about the length of time to recover. Plus, I had health problems and there were other family issues going on at the time that didn't help speed things along for me.

There is no affair "closure" that some WW's claim they need. That's just an excuse to contact the AP again. There is no tapering off. It may eventually fizzle out, like MWD says, but if your W is wayward (and I think in most cases here on the board, they are wayward in affairs) then there's a big chance she's going to OM#2 in the very near future, or relapse at some point if she doesn't recover from her wayward mindset.

If she was in any type of affair (EA/PA/IA) then the WW is going to have some withdrawals for a period of time, b/c she was not really in true love with the OM. He was a part of her fantasy. It was a deception and a secret, and it added to the thrill of it all. I mean, if sin didn't feel good on some level, I doubt so many would freely engage.

She was addicted to the chemical flooding her brain and was experiencing that which is similar to feeling "in love". In her wayward state of mind, she is not going to want to part with the "high" she got from contacting OM. It feeds her ego. It keeps her in an emotional state of feeling high, as long as she can contact him often enough to feed those needs.

If she's acting as if everything is fine when she's around you, then I'm saying she's covering her affair. There are so many technology apps these days to help people conceal their A. I would IM and email the OM when I was at work. I would talk to him on the work phone. I kept a secret cell phone and would leave the house to call him when I was not at work. He would not call my secret cell phone, and I kept it hidden. This was after my H discovered my online activity from our home computer and home phone records. The OM was not a local person, but if he had been.....I would have figured out a way to be alone with him. Never underestimate what a WW can and will do. You cannot trust her. You can choose to detach, drop the rope, and go your own way in living your life in spite of her.....but you can't afford to just "trust" her without her proving herself over a sufficient amount of time. Do you get what I am saying here?

Some days, I just want to not ever worry about it, and say I'm the better M, so why even search for anything. Just worry about myself and keep moving forward.

Then why can't you choose to go that way? That's what I was saying in my previous statement. You can choose to not worry and go forward, but just don't believe her without sufficient evidence that convinces you that she is genially working toward a better MR, and most of all....being faithful to you. I just don't think it's that easy to live the rest of your life in a MR where you don't know if your spouse is being real or not. I think a lot of people do, but I don't think it would be easy long term, not being able to believe your spouse. To me, (and this may sound weird coming from a former WW), that is the real deceit......when you are not in the relationship you believed you have, b/c it isn't real. Make sense? Therefore, I say to do whatever you can live with...happily. If you can leave it alone and go on with your life and be happy, then do it. If you can't live that way and need to know the truth, then gather enough intel to know where you stand, and make a decision accordingly.

But, we all know we need concrete evidence to prove what our WS are doing.

IMHO, it depends upon what you are trying to achieve. Do you need to know "if" she has cheated, or do you already know she has? Do you need to know if she has stopped contacting the OM? Has she committed to NC and doing what is necessary to save the MR? Has she shown any remorse or even apologized for her actions? Do you know anything for sure?

For years, I said no snooping. I still think no "snooping" is best, but I have changed my mind about gathering intel to know if your spouse is, indeed, in some type of affair. Once you know, I don't believe it is healthy to check every day to see what their latest activity. Did you know it can become habitual? I have read from many LBH's who said it was like a drug and hard to stop snooping. I have also read several stories of the affect it had when they read too many details in the conversations between the AP'S.

One thing I have always supported is transparency after the WW has agreed to NC ever again with OM, and she commits to saving the MR. I say this from the WW viewpoint, or rather the "former" WW. Being transparent with my H was probably the best thing I could have done to help me stay on the straight & narrow path through the withdrawal period. Many board members think transparency is for the betrayed spouse only, but if the WW is genuine about reconciling, it will help her stay resolved to NC with her former AP. Here again, the H doesn't have to look every day, in fact I suggest he doesn't. Don't tell her when or how you will check on her activity, but do spot check. The reason I say don't tell her is b/c of the different ways she can cover up, if she knows when and how he will check. As long as she has agreed, the terms of how he'll check should be his decision. If she's not humble and remorseful about her infidelity, then she will gripe about not having privacy, and not being fair for him to look at her messages, or whatever. Well, guess what? She's not in any position to give stipulations to the reconciliation. Everyone may not agree with me, and I don't really care. I am telling you from the mouth of a former WW that she should only have to agree to transparency. And if the H is smart, he'll use something more reliable than just her word! Sure, she can call him and tell him where she's going, etc.....but that gets old pretty quickly and she'll stop, or start resenting it. Here's the thing, the entire point of transparency is for her to earn your trust. Forgiveness doesn't mean trusting. You forgive by grace. Trust can be a choice the first time, but if you're smart, they'll earn your trust after they betray you. My mother told me when I was old enough to date, "I will trust you unless you give me reason not to". I think that could be applied in these cases, too.

When you M her, you believed her and trusted her. After betrayal, she needs to earn back your trust. It aides her in respecting you again, and of course, it assures you that she is sincerely working to get back what she lost. Eventually, the H can taper off on checking often, but he should not stop completely, unless he is convinced she is not covering up something. And, the best tell-all sign that she's backsliding? Her attitude. If her attitude toward you gets bad after or during the withdrawal period......it's time to start checking things out again.

That's the bottom line I would tell anyone that asks how you can tell if she's being truthful. When her words line up with her actions......andwith her attitude.. I think most men can tell when their W is not showing respect. That's key, too. Very important!

[joejoe1]

Sandi,

She has told me that the counseling session the other day, wasn't that good. She said the counselor different offer her no techniques to help her deal with her depression, and also to help her to stop crying at night.

I have already caught her cheating. I told her around a month ago, she could stay and stop talking to the OM or leave and cont. what she was doing. She decided to stay.

I don't know if she wants to work on the M yet. I haven't broached that conversation. I don't initiative convo about the M or R. She also brought up the counseling session. I really don't initiate any heavy convo, unless it's about finances. She has been the one lately doing all the initiating.

Yesterday was the first day we rode together in a vehicle in months. We took the boys to dental appointments. She also rode in the front seat. I thought she was going to hoop in the back seat.

I also massaged her legs, because they were hurting.

As for her attitude matching her actions. I think it does. My wife tells me how much I hurt her, and that I broke her, and she don't like talking about it, because it makes angry all over again.

Also, she says she wants to get the boys a puppy for X-mas. I tried to get one in July/August time frame and she said that a puppy seem to permanent of a decision we are in.

She also cooked for me last night and she tells me how her days has went and all the people she talked to and how she felt about the conversations.

I don't know how to take these scenarios.

I also, don't want to snoop, I think it looks very weak. I think it shows a high level of insecurity. I confident person, moves forward with his life. If we reconcile, I will make my boundaries and request complete transparency.

Also, if she has a burner, she has done a good job of keeping that hidden. If she went that deep, she deserves to be there. Only crazyiness happens there. I know if I go down the road, in that darkest, I will have to do crazy things to get there.

She def needs to earn my trust. I'm being patient and moving forward.