So the BIG question is how do you know when the timing is right and their plans with APs are blowing up in their face or backfiring (unless of course we're privy to the state of their R which I assume most of us are not)? Or do you just file on your own timeline and HOPE AND PRAY that the WWs would turn around?
I believe this is difficult to gauge because the LBS at this point in DBing is not privy to the internal stuff going on with the W. So, then filing for D like this becomes a way of obtaining some reaction from W, which IMHO becomes just a tactic to see if they want to come back rather than the LBS making a decision from a position of strength.
I think that the LBS should file for D if they are truly done and want to move on with their life - much more than they have already done with attaining detachment and all that. Otherwise, it's just a tactic that could potentially backfire and also impact all the detachment work that the LBS has done.
As pointed out, the psychology of a WAW vs. WW is important in this aspect. I am going to speak for the WAW here, which I think is J's sitch and also mine at this point. If the WAW has not done the internal self-critical personal work, then it is going to be difficult for them to come back. If the D wakes them up and they want to start recon but haven't done the work, the LBS has to make a decision whether or not they want to go along with the WAW's process of figuring herself out, or just move on with their lives. Because at the point of filing D, assuming you've given it enough time for the changes that the LBS wants to make for themselves has passed, the LBS is going to be in a different mental, emotional, and psychological universe compared to the WAW (if they are still stuck in limbo and in the past). At this point, I would say that the WAW is in a fairly unattractive place for the LBS, and the LBS will have figured out what they want from a relationship. If the WAW agrees to work on things and the LBS's needs, then you can begin the process of recon and see where it leads.
As much as I love my W and would want a recon, I am not going to do it if she hasn't done some personal work, shown remorse for her actions, and agrees to do the work so that my needs are met for a future MR. I aim to get to a place of strength where I am comfortable moving on without W and I know I can have a happy life without her. I don't want to recon for a subpar MR and I don't think any LBS should.
So, the way I look at the timeline for making a decision for what's next is this - have I been able to accomplish my goals yet? Do I feel like I have the inner fortitude and strength to move on with my life? Do I know what I would need from a relationship?
If I have reached those markers, at that point I will consider the decision on the D.
I think all of this circles back to the fundamental point about focusing on yourself. And if you do that, you're golden.
Interesting that I get an email today from a male leadership site I subscribe to and today's email is as follows:
I work with a lot of men who are standing on the hairy edge of major decisions.
* Is this relationship worth saving?
* How do I know if I've done all I can?
* How do I know if it's time to throw in the towel?
* How do I know if I'm ready for a new relationship?
* What if I make the wrong decision?
When you have this much doubt and uncertainty it is always caused by the same thing.
Lack of clarity.
And when you're lacking clarity you find yourself in the same stupid arguments saying the same destructive things.
When you lack clarity you're over-reacting to everything and riding the emotional crazy train anywhere it takes you.
When you lack clarity you feel out of control and fearful of every reaction and every consequence to any decision you make.
The huge mistake men make before deciding to stay, leave or start a new relationship is not getting CLARITY.
You know you have clarity when you are feeling calm instead of anxious.
You feel confident instead fearful.
Your words and your actions are more purposeful and deliberate.
No, you're not an emotionless, robotic ass.
You're actually more tuned in to your own emotions and empathetic toward the feelings of others.
You're more aware of your intentions, your words and the impact you have on others.
Clarity gives you a peaceful sense of acceptance - even when you're in a swirling cloud of sadness. Even when others have hair trigger tempers and the tension is thick and gooey.
THIS is where I want you to be before you make ANY major decision.
From here you will speak your truth, express your real feelings and make the best decisions.
From here...the consequences from the decisions you make are the consequences that are supposed to happen.
How do you get clarity?
We get clarity through a commitment to discover ourselves.
I know...sounds woo-woo. It's not.
I'm talking about discovering the real source of your fears.
Understanding the cause of your self-doubt and indecision.
I do think this is my W....any thoughts or strategies on how to handle?
This is the hard part of giving up control. I don't think there is anything different you can do to win them back other than DB for your own self preservation and growth. Over time they will notice, but of course that doesn't mean they want to R. I think you can never have enough GAL activities tho. What sort of things did your W find attractive about you when you guys met? Does that motivate you again? For example, did you engage in more sports, social activities, music, taking a writing class, etc? Would you still enjoy these same sort of GALs?
There are so many great topics in this thread! 1. The difference between a WAW and a WW. 2. The timing of filing for D and if that motivates WW/WAW to come back. 3. If WW/WAW comes back to M, but hasn't made changes, and then 4. The gender differences and why it seems WH returns to the M more often than WW. Each one could be it's own thread.
I am not sure I can speak to all of these. I can share what I have read here and from my own sitch. I think Wonka brought up a great point about men being more territorial. Even tho my H was Wayward and left the M to pursue OW, there were several times he thought I was dating (or even when I was dressed up and going out) and it bothered him a lot! He said he would have ask himself why it bothered him and that he knew he had a double standard, but it still did. This was another red flag in his mind that he was making a mistake. If he was leaving me then why did he care so much about what I was doing? Over time more and more things forced him to see what a mistake it was; but leaving OW was also difficult because she was very clingy and emotional (not the fun loving floozy she was before he left me and during their EA).
Meanwhile, the OW (who was also Wayward and left her H) did not follow the same path (recall we were all friends). According to my H, she made it clear to him that she would have left her H (WAW) with or without the A (my H). I don't tend to believe much of what she says, but when my H left her, she did not go back to her H. She moved right on to OM2 and moved in with him (and all their kids) in just a few months. Is this because of gender differences or because she was actually a WAW (that used the A as an exit), whereas my H was just Wayward? I mean, no one can ever no for sure, but I tend to think both. I think men that are Wayward are more likely to return to the M and I think that Waywards in general are more likely to return than Walkaways.
Let me be clear again, that this is my perspective, and my perspective is a scorned woman who was burned by both my H and OW, who I thought was a close friend for several years. I am sure if you heard other POV, they would be different. I also recall OW (when we were friends and before I knew about her A with my H) joking for a couple years about how she would leave her H some day and how we all better look after him, etc. So I have no idea if she was planning her Walkaway or just blowing smoke up my arse because she was pursing my H. Who really knows? Sigh.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Thanks again Blu.....I try to think deep about things and to not react when it comes to my sitch. Hence why there are so many great topics because it helps me work things out in my head!
I never did discover if there was OM and I stopped snooping when she moved out. I go back and forth between W and WW but just based on her actions probably more W I would guess but who knows. I also don't think it really matters. When she left though I got the same standard responses, not attracted to you, not in love with you any more, you were a safe choice, etc.
I do think my W is in girls gone wild mode at minimum, enjoying her freedom , partying with her friends, meeting guys etc. I don't think she left to sit at home twiddling her thumbs so in that way I would say she is Wayward, just not as disrespectful as some of the others I have read about.
Before kids we just did your normal dating type of things going out to dinner, bars, maybe an overnight trip here and there, some concerts...more social type of activities.
In the end though you got your mojo back, filed and it woke him up. Combined with him viewing you as an attractive option. Correct? The filing for D, combined with the other factors, including time/distance and you being an attractive option pushed him over the edge.
Well I think I have started to do that by not calling her, texting her, giving her space etc. I think that is the opposite of my general nice guy personality so I think that is a start.
I used to never buy clothes or anything for myself. That has recently changed with buying new threads, cologne, I also dyed my 44 yr old gry hair and am in the process of growing it out on top. I always wore the same hair cut 8 on top 2 on the sides. That I think would also be unpredictable Because again I never did anything for myself.
I guess another way would be arrive late to exchanges, I am always prompt and on time. Maybe start to leave situations early as well. Maybe I miss a weekend of my D's soccer games because I am going out of town or miss a practice because I got a HH to go to. That would be totally not normal for me because I love watching my d's play sports.
Continue to ACT like I don't give a [censored] and try to pay her as little attention as possible. I started not sitting by her at soccer games and practices, by doing this I have found that she comes over to talk to me.
Don't cave into her wishes or requests. Be more aloof, more difficult, like I told her this weekend I wasn't going to be involved with her cell phone any more because it is my personal boundary or why couldn't maintenance fix her fire alarm in her apartment. Continue with stuff like that.
In the end though you got your mojo back, filed and it woke him up. Combined with him viewing you as an attractive option. Correct? The filing for D, combined with the other factors, including time/distance and you being an attractive option pushed him over the edge.
I wish I could tell you that I got my mojo back, lol, but no not entirely. Actually I am still looking for it, and chit I hope I find it soon because I turn 40 next year :-O ... I also didn't file for D. ... But, I was starting to go out more, enjoy my GAL more, got better at faking my happiness, and the DB extreme weight loss made that a bit easier. He did think that I was dating someone tho and it drove him crazy! I recall one day he came by for the kids on a Friday evening, I was dressed up, and just breezily said goodbye to everyone, and he followed me out to my car, tried to keep talking to me, and was chocking back tears. I did not mention that I was only going to a GFs house for dinner, but I did secretly enjoy watching him suffer. Muah hahaha!
Also, while I didn't file for D, I did consult 2 Ls. He found out and flipped! Another time he followed me out with all the questions! He was a much better spy than I was and he def had some intel. What I did not tell him was that I was not going to file because I would have screwed myself financially. I live in a no fault state, and I was living in our large home with him at his parents house, and he was paying half of everything. His NG guilt had him eating out of my hand at times TBH ...
The biggest factor, I think, I had very little influence over. His R with OW was never what he hoped for in his limerance/EA/secret stages in the beginning. The reality was that she was needy and insecure, they no longer had the family time that they had in our circles of friends, they were somewhat outcast from everyone, and he wasn't "comfortable" with her. I actually found that out early on when digging through his backpack ... and I'll tell you what? That was never and is still not an issue with me! TMI? Whatever. I'll take it.
The longer their R was out in the real world, the faster it deteriorated. He was essentially running from his life and she was there always telling him how great he was and how he deserved better. There was very little substance and it was a lot of drama. I think part of his attraction to the A was his inability to face our issues, so he blamed/resented me, and then justified running away from the M. She alone is not a person he said he would have ever dated or been attracted to. In fact, early on in our circle of friends, he would complain about her being annoying ... Sorry, I just really hate the B!
When I hear her saying safe choice. I interpret that is boring, predictable and reliable.
Funny you should bring this up, because this was another reason that my H wanted to come back. He missed his every day life at home and with me and the kids. The novelty wore off quickly. He is an easy going guy who likes the more "boring" and predictable stuff. I think most people eventually want to settle down and have Rs that are easy and comfortable, so I am not sure this is such a bad thing. For me, I want both. I want my every day family life and I still make time to GAL and have fun. It's all about balance and I don't need to leave my H for that! ... Please remind me of this again when I talk about leaving. Thank you.
Blu
“Forgiveness liberates the soul. It removes fear. That is why it is such a powerful weapon.” – Nelson Mandela
Well, you want to become a better version of yourself, so I'm not sure showing up late to exchanges is a step in the right direction.
It seems like men often focus on the surface stuff when it comes to 180s. Gym, cologne, clothes. Those are an important step, but don't stop there.
Try out a new genre of music, take dance lessons, go see the art film you wouldn't normally see, go fishing if you're a city guy or head to the museums if you're a nature lover. Learn to cook, try a new cuisine, take an art class, shoot a gun.
New experiences light up different parts of your brain and give you something new to talk about. We all get into ruts. Getting out of one rut makes it easier to get out of other ruts, like the ones in our relationships.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
