WW in A. NC w/ OM(?) Next steps? (6th thread)

[hoosjim]

In this case, I would put it in the form of a question.,,,,,,,and not keep talking.......and look at her till she gave an answer. "W, are you committed to doing what is necessary to save our M"? The trouble with her is she gives an unsatisfactory response. Like saying, "Isn't that what I've been doing for the past month

Lol... so I got BOTH answers. I put the question to her pretty much as you suggested, to which she responded "Yes... that's why I've been doing all these things I've been doing [lists things here] and why I was kind of put off last week when you got angry with me when I was late getting home from work." We talked a bit about that, and about my difficulties in trusting her, and she said something interesting here "That night, you had the same look of hurt and anger and pain that you had when you found the phone and told me you wanted me to leave." (Now, I didn't think I was anywhere near that upset--or transparent--when we had that little glitch last week, but at least she's KIND OF acknowledging MY pain for a change.)

At any rate, I still don't know that I have an "all in" from her. She says she wants to go back into counselling (including IC), but... she still seems to be qualifying her "commitment". Despite what she said above, she later said "You have changed SO much, and you look better than... like better than you ever have, and things have really been good for us in a lot of ways the past few weeks, but I've just been trying to see if that is enough for me, if I can be happy with that one piece (sex/intimacy) still missing." (Basically saying she still doesn't have those intimate feelings for me.) To me, that seems like she's still heavily qualifying things. I didn't tell HER that... Just listened, nodded, validated, etc.

She did say that there were still barriers there that made it awkward for us when we were touching, etc. And she's right, there are definitely barriers there on both sides. While I WANT to, something still doesn't feel quite right in reaching out to her physically.

She also sidetracked at one point into what was sort of a minimizing of her affair and the role her bff played in that "Well, I never really used the trips down to visit her as cover to do anything" (Which is most definitely NOT true... I didn't argue it with her now, but have told her in past I know different and I DID say this time "Do we really want to go down that road right now?") But... not comforting that she is still minimizing that and not acknowledging the full extent of things.

Interesting that this didn't even start as a MR convo... but instead as gossip about our soon-to-be-divorced best friends who now, if things go as they look like they are going, will be involved in a full blown and unplanned "spouse swap." Total train wreck.

Idunno. She seemed very genuine at times... and I wanted to believe her when she said she was "in" but... seems like an awful lot of qualifiers.

And for those keeping count, assuming I'm not missing something, we are now at NC+6 weeks.



Oh, and important addenda (I think)... while discussing the lack of intimate/romantic feelings, she did say that "maybe that's something the counselor can help us work through."

FWIW, my DB coach said not to be worried at this point if she didn't have any "sparky" romantic feelings for me... just too soon after ending the A... and that I could actually tell W that it was okay and that i did not "Expect" that yet. (Which I did tell her.)

[25yearsmlc]

Oh, and important addenda (I think)... while discussing the lack of intimate/romantic feelings, she did say that "maybe that's something the counselor can help us work through."

FWIW, my DB coach said not to be worried at this point if she didn't have any "sparky" romantic feelings for me... just too soon after ending the A... and that I could actually tell W that it was okay and that i did not "Expect" that yet. (Which I did tell her.)

Curious, why tell her that? I'm asking.

[hoosjim]

Second important addenda: I also find myself less concerned than at any time I can recall about the ultimate outcome here. i still do very much want to be with her, but at the same time I am having a really good time with all of my friends, old and new, and with all of my GAL activities, and I know that i will be okay. I've seen definite interest from other women when I have been out, which is a simultaneous confidence booster as well as test of commitment.

Really looking forward to the rest of my life. I'd just prefer, all else being equal, that that occur with my family intact.

[hoosjim]

Coach said it a) takes pressure off of her b) hopefully encourages her to stop hyper-analyzing everything and c) hopefully help free her up just enjoy the "good moments" as "good moments" which are a necessary precursor to the romance anyway. Also I think she mentioned might help lay the groundwork for the counselor to talk to her about affair addictiveness, getting over it, rebuilding intimacy, love as a deliberate "choice", etc.

It made sense to me. Didn't see the harm in it. I mean, she DOESNT have those feelings for me now. I DID qualify, however, that that was ABSOLUTELY what I wanted in my MR, just that I didn't expect her to be able to "flip that switch" instantaneously right now.

[25yearsmlc]

Jim,

I hope you won't feel resentful of my comments. I mean to help. I'm not nearly as cynical as you think.

Just b/c my very long M is ending, after a dozen years of first DBing, does not invalidate my views.

Actually I've been on both sides of this. I think the feeling that I had reconciled & succeeded, but then we did not piece well, and now I am here, might have some value.

Here is what you wrote:

(Now, I didn't think I was anywhere near that upset--or transparent--when we had that little glitch last week, but at least she's KIND OF acknowledging MY pain for a change.)

At any rate, I still don't know that I have an "all in" from her.

Jim, you have said this ^^^ many many times. Which you probably know.

So what would "knowing she is all in" look like to you, Specifically? And if it's not met and clear, what then? Can you decide and then enforce that?


She says she wants to go back into counselling (including IC), but... she still seems to be qualifying her "commitment".

Despite what she said above, she later said


actions versus words.

What she DOES matters and what she says, does not. She IS qualifying her commitment. It's the only thing clear in her lack of clarity.

Her behavior - per you - is still not showing commitment and being all in. You still have that itchy sweater feeling for a reason. At this point - why bother dwelling on her words, when the actions are not consistently consistent?

You need consistency and without it, what do you really have?
To reconcile for real, the WAS has to bear the brunt of the heavy lifting. Your w is not. Sure, once upon a time you did not do the heavy lifting and she did. And she felt rejected.

You cannot change the past, and you say (and I believe) You are working in your sandbox. If so, then just be here now. Your w is clearly Not clear...

Serious question, has she engaged in actions that reveal a commitment of all in, consistently, and for more than a few weeks?

I believe if you read over your earlier threads objectively, maybe you'll see things in a new way. There really is a lot of the same going on as was at the beginning.


"You have changed SO much, and you look better than... like better than you ever have, and things have really been good for us in a lot of ways the past few weeks,

but I've just been trying to see if that is enough for me, if I can be happy with that one piece (sex/intimacy) still missing." (Basically saying she still doesn't have those intimate feelings for me.)

Actually I think she's saying she does not believe it'll happen AND she is wondrering if she can keep on living without it.

To me, that seems like she's still heavily qualifying things.[/b]


She is qualifying things a great deal. And it is the biggest issue in your m that she's qualifying. I would imagine that hurts you a great deal. Sorry about that. Hard enough on the ego to be here with your background. (IE the intimacy issues).

I know it's a real drag and it can wear you down.

[hoosjim]

actions vs words

Actuall, right now, her actions are BETTER than her words. She's LITERALLY NOT DOING anything wrong and hasn't for the past few weeks. Hasn't gone out with anyone but me. Let's me track her lication. Calls or texts regularly, especially when late. Has not brought up neglect as excuse for the A. Though she DID minimize or lie about one aspect of it last night, though honestly she,seemed convinced of her truthfulness and she is NOT a good liar. (Deluding herself?) But, other than that, she hasn't done anything bad and HAS warmed up to me... we're just not having sex or the immediate precursors thereto. If she does go to IC she'll literally be,checking all the boxes.

It's her words that are more troubling than her actions right now. And she's sulky/mopey, but doesn't direct it at me

[25yearsmlc]

[quote]actions vs words

Actuall, right now, her actions are BETTER than her words. She's LITERALLY NOT DOING anything wrong and hasn't for the past few weeks.

Jim, I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but your statement (all in caps!!) that she is "literally not doing anything wrong" is a bit over the top.

I'm not arguing with you. No need to rebut every point. I'm noting your persistent feeling that she is not all in, which probably remains for a reason.

Also - her behavior in front of and around you is an action. Being mopey and not being intimate are actions.

Telling you she's not sure if she can stay married without intimacy - is not saying she hopes to have intimacy, it's not saying she hopes to feel attracted to you and then have intimacy someday.

She presumes & accepts she won't feel that way. Her question which she made to your face, is about HER needs, as she wonders if SHE can live with a sexless m. Nothing in there about your needs.

I'm so sorry, but This would devastate me.

[hoosjim]

all in caps!!

Srry. Only intended "doing" to be in caps--my phone does weird things via autocorrect and I am a crappy text typer. Also I'd use italics but don't know the html (or whatever) code for that.

This would devastate me

And, it did devastate me... months ago when she told me that or something similar for the first time... along with all the other stuff. This is not exactly news. I'm not so fragile these days that I can keep being hurt by hearing something I already know and have known for some time. This is obviously something...in fact the main thing... that will have to be worked through. But that seems to me to be SOP in these cases.

Mopey-Ness good or bad? Sandi seems,to think good at this stage, you bad. File me under "not unexpected", which I guess is,somewhere in the middle.

FWIW, she has said on several occasions that I "deserve that kind of relationship" and that she doesn't want to hurt me or trap me in a Loveless marriage either. And she indicated a hope yesterday that the MC could help her/us work through the intimacy piece.

And none of this is yo say I thonk we are in any kind of great place, as you accurately note, but... I've gotta go SOMEWHERE (italics) On some, perhaps even several levels I didn't handle all this as well as I could have, but I am where I am. And,where that is I don't think it would be productive for me to walk out or try to push her out. I've chosen my psth-- reengage with the DB coach, reenter counselling IF she agrees to take the professional advice offered, which inclues getting IC and IF she continues to behave herself, and see if we can keep building and hopefully get bff out of picture when she moves 1000 miles away. (My own bff did me a huge unintentional favor here by moving out of state to create some "distance" until his D is final, leaving my W's bff with the kids and no convenient childcare, so W's bff can no longer go out at night and invite my wife. W's bff is PI$$ED, lol.)

So, anyway, thats the playbook and sitch for now. Do I wish it were different? Yes. Do I think its hopeless? No, just hard. I honestly don't think things are going to drag on past years end before i have significantly more clarity on where we're headed, even if i dont, as will almost assuredly be the case, know what the final outcome will be. This is the plan. If you or anyone else (definitely interested in hearing sandi2's take) has any further specific suggestions of things I might want to consider, I'm all ears.

[hoosjim]

Quick toss out question for anyone: Our anniversary is next week. Neither W nor I has mentioned it. Obviously, doing anything to "celebrate" it seems kind of weird under the circumstances. OTOH, we are in this weird place right now where she at least says she is trying to work things out with us, and she is behaving herself, so it Doesn't feel like I should completely blow it off, either. Maybe bring it up with her, ask how she feels about it? Just feels like we should do SOMETHING, though not the usual type stuff... after all, my take on the marriage is that the original M is over and that if we are going to have something together it is going to be something new.

Interested in all takes, here.

[Tread]

Unless W gives uouba definite yes for staying in the MR, I say do nothing. Wish her a happy anniversary, perhaps give a card at most.