WW in A. NC w/ OM(?) Next steps? (6th thread)

[sandi2]

So, what's the latest with your W?

[hoosjim]

So, what's the latest with your W?

Nothing really noteworthy. School starting this week for S17 and trying to get him squared away with new counseling and protocols at home has kept us busy. W has been in a funk for most of week... actually "depressed" as she puts it. She hasn't opened up or given any reason, though. She had been sort of steadily "cozying up" to me. Calling/texting a lot, inviting me to do things with her pretty much anytime she went somewhere or did anything, doing/saying jokey things to cheer me up when I was briefly down after S18 heading off to school. I started noticing the turn in her on Sunday. She just sounds down. Maybe my S18 being off at college is hitting her a bit, too.

She's still not doing anything rebellious, disrespectful, or otherwise "wrong"... with possible exception of 1)Last Saturday, she took S17 to dinner while I was out with friends. She chose restaurant within same mini-mall (and visual distance) of OM's hangout #2. It is a BIT out of the way for us, but a place the kids do like and at which we have eaten before a couple of times. She even called me from their to say "we're here and eating." She then chose (again asking the boy first) to try to go by a donut shop on the way home... which by necessity from where they were coming from took her right by OM hangout #1. Maybe something maybe nothing. Didn't even mention it last week on here cause wasn't sure it was worth mentioning, but you are the WW guru, so thought all facts should be known.

AND 2) Wednesday. Told me she would be staying after work with coworkers at her office, and was 45 minutes later getting home than she said she would be, though she did text at the point she should originally have been home and again when she did actually leave. Earlier that day she had had a 35 minute lunch out of the office (she told me, I didn't check) which was fairly unusual for her and about which her story kinda kept changing, but I was trying not to read too much into it-- the way she phrased things could have been interpreted just as easily that she was trying to reassure me and clarify as that she was obfuscating. (It's complicated and I wont relate the whole conversation but trust me). At any rate, that, and the fact that she'd been acting depressed (which has been a precursor to her "slipping" in the past) put me slightly on edge. So, when she was late getting home I overreacted and instead of be there when she got there where I might say something I texted her I was changing my plans from working out to going out to get myself dinner and a drink.

Would've just blown over but she called me from road and said she could tell something was wrong (I'd've sworn my voice was normal, whatever). So then she COMES BY the restaurant and brings S17 to get dinner because she said she wanted to find out what was wrong and thought they might cheer me up. Well, I'd had a drink, was still thinking crazy thoughts, and... didn't exactly "lay into her", but, after she'd asked a couple of times and while S17 was in bathroom, did tell her "I don't know if I can keep doing this", told her I didn't know why she couldn't just "level with me and tell me the full truth about her plans", that I enjoyed her company and hanging out with her and how nice and warm she's been but that she hadn't really been doing anything that made me feel like she was interested in making up for the A and in trying seriously to work on us. Also told her that the more I talked with my own best friend--who's starting to finally realize just how shitty and painful his end of the stick is going to be-- the more I was shocked and troubled that she did not seem at all to think that what her own bff had been doing to my friend, her STBXH, was wrong (at least not that she's told me, anyway.) Okay, so maybe that qualifies as "laying into her", though I did not shout or raise my voice. I returned to the MBR (we'd both been sleeping in the better bed in the guest BR) that night to sleep by myself.

Thursday was a typical "day after she's pissed me off." She texted and called repeatedly and I ignored it. Until about lunch when I started thinking more about it. (And the more I read it here in print the more I realize I really had nothing concrete and badly overreacted.) She was friendly and engaging.

She called me on her way home and asked how I was doing. We discussed a lot of things. Her "depression". My anger the previous night. How I felt like we were stagnating and that she wasn't really committed to the effort. (she said she felt like we were really working on connecting... "except for sex"). I told her I didn't feel like it was good enough for us to be just trying to "see if feelings are going to pop up" but that we needed to be working on the marriage or not working on the marriage, period. Told her my main issue with Wednesday was that she was late without telling me (though she DID give me more notice than I seem to have acknowledged and, honestly, my mind was also spinning scenarios about her and OM.) Told her I was sorry if I seemed angry because I really wasn't (and, honestly, I wasn't. Disappointed and hurt, yes, but I really wasn't hopping mad.) She said that she feels like she's really limited herself, hasn't gone out with friends, and that everything she's done socially the past few weeks she's done with me or me and the kids, so when I was ticked about Wednesday she like... "Really?" But she didn't act mad or vindictive about it. Just told me how she felt. I told her I could understand that, but she needed to understand that I had needs, too, and that getting over the A and trusting her was not going to be easy and that I really needed her to be committed to doing so. We talked some about our past issues in passing, and also about getting back into counseling, BOTH IC and MC. Couldn't figure out when we're going to make that happen, though, as we both have ridiculous schedules the next two weeks. I made it clear I'm not going back into counseling unless we are going to follow our MC's advice... which is that we each get IC first. It was a good talk. Probably too much, but she initiated it, and my DB coach (who I re-engaged with this week) indicated I could do so as long as I remembered to validate her feelings and not over-focus on my own. (Which I did a little but probably could have done better.)

Last night was my weekly "outdoor workday/happy hour/night out with my friends" night. Only me and one other buddy, who I hadn't seen a lot of recently but who is himself divorced for the past year and who hasn't been getting out much. I've been trying to get him back "out of his shell" and last night I think I succeeded pretty well. Had him laughing and joking and reminiscing, flirting with the waitress. It was a good night. So good I had to Uber home. (W called at one point to check in and see how I was doing and offer ride but I told her I'd be ubering.)

Prolly more than you wanted to hear, but that's "Life in Mr. HoosJim's World" at the present...

[sandi2]

W has been in a funk for most of week... actually "depressed" as she puts it.

That's actually a good sign. In fact the whole paragraph sounds hopeful, IMHO. It means she is probably not contacting OM. Also, S17 leaving for college, could cause some sadness as a mother. I would be a lot more worried if she was acting thrilled.

She's still not doing anything rebellious, disrespectful, or otherwise "wrong"... with possible exception of 1)Last Saturday, she took S17 to dinner while I was out with friends. She chose restaurant within same mini-mall (and visual distance) of OM's hangout #2. It is a BIT out of the way for us, but a place the kids do like and at which we have eaten before a couple of times. She even called me from their to say "we're here and eating." She then chose (again asking the boy first) to try to go by a donut shop on the way home... which by necessity from where they were coming from took her right by OM hangout #1. Maybe something maybe nothing. Didn't even mention it last week on here cause wasn't sure it was worth mentioning, but you are the WW guru, so thought all facts should be known.

Yes, it is worth mentioning, b/c the hangout is out of her way. It's the addiction pulling at her to just have a hint about what he's doing and where he is. Hopefully, she did not pursue to contact him after passing the hangout. If she did, it will put her back to starting over in the withdrawals. The rest of that paragraph sounds good. Perhaps it's discouraging to you that you aren't seeing more in her, but I can assure you that her not showing rebellion or disrespect......is a terrific step forward. She has to do the right thing, first, and then her feelings will catch up.

Thursday was a typical "day after she's pissed me off." She texted and called repeatedly and I ignored it. Until about lunch when I started thinking more about it. (And the more I read it here in print the more I realize I really had nothing concrete and badly overreacted.) She was friendly and engaging.

Makes sense.......if you never established where the two of you are in the MR. I don't want to imply that you should walk around on egg shells.......but you won't have very many times you can afford to react the way you did that night. Like I said, part of it comes from you not having an agreement or commitment from her. It's as if you are trying to feel your way blindfolded. And, it doesn't work well when you are trying to piece the M back together. The two of you have to be on the same page. You have operated under this same type of dynamics ever since she dropped the bomb.

She called me on her way home and asked how I was doing. We discussed a lot of things. Her "depression". My anger the previous night. How I felt like we were stagnating and that she wasn't really committed to the effort. (she said she felt like we were really working on connecting... "except for sex"). I told her I didn't feel like it was good enough for us to be just trying to "see if feelings are going to pop up" but that we needed to be working on the marriage or not working on the marriage, period. Told her my main issue with Wednesday was that she was late without telling me (though she DID give me more notice than I seem to have acknowledged and, honestly, my mind was also spinning scenarios about her and OM.) Told her I was sorry if I seemed angry because I really wasn't (and, honestly, I wasn't. Disappointed and hurt, yes, but I really wasn't hopping mad.)

Okay, that was good. Let this be a starting line, and go to a MC for guidance in piecing.
You both were telling the other one what your needs are.......but did you agree in how you both get needs met? This is why you need a therapist. This stuff does not heal overnight, and if you get drunk.....your hard work could go down the drain in just a few minutes.

Just told me how she felt. I told her I could understand that, but she needed to understand that I had needs, too, and that getting over the A and trusting her was not going to be easy and that I really needed her to be committed to doing so

You continued to talk and she never said anything about commitment? I wished you had stopped right at that sentence and waited for a verbal answer. She gets out of these situations without committing or agreeing......or anything, b/c you talk for her, and she never actually says it. Why didn't you say you would not even try to trust her until she made a commitment? Instead, you tell her how difficult it is for you without her commitment.........so, she continues to not commit. Do you see what I mean?

She said that she feels like she's really limited herself, hasn't gone out with friends, and that everything she's done socially the past few weeks she's done with me or me and the kids, so when I was ticked about Wednesday she like... "Really?

Do you remember me telling you that each of you will have plenty of work to do on your side of the street? Her work is not going to look the same as your work. Also, she is likely to give up if she doesn't understand the process. Again, I stress the need for professional guidance at this point.

I don't want to discourage you in GAL. However, just saying if she is being honest and NC with OM, she is very fragile while going through withdrawals. Leaving her home alone, may not be the best thing to do at this particular time. See what I mean?

I suggest you get an answer from her, telling you if she's in or out. Otherwise, Jim, I don't think it will be successful. You both need a plan and have professional assistance. At least, you come to the board.......but she has nothing (as far as you know).

She could be playing games. Too soon to really know. But if you stay in this spot without acting on what I've suggested.......it will all be for nothing. And another thing before I go. If she feels she has to report her ever mood, and she has no support......how long do you think that will last? Is she volunteering the information, or are you asking her?

[hoosjim]

Sandi, thanks for all the detailed input, as always.

Quick note and quick question.

Weekend was much of the same. Visited S18 for football game at his college. Saw many friends, new and old, talked and laughed. W got to see me "in my element", having great time with friends (I am an alum of my son's cillege, so going for fame means seeing many old college friends... friends of both W and me) and hearing people say "wow hoosjim looks GREAT! Has he been working out?" She suggested extending weekend into a beach trip, do we did, with S17 and friend if his. She invited me to go with her to see outdoor concert if her favorite local band, so we went, sat on lawn, had a couple beers, laughed and joked and raljed sbout music (a dhared interest) danced some (though not close). It was nice.

She's been alternately warming up and cooling off towards me physically. Saturday night, she was keeping closer to me in bed moving ovet to sleep against me some, or such. Sunday, though, after we'd had thar nice evening out and you da thought her MORE likely to want to be closer, she was much less so, way over on her side of bed, back turned, and kind of sulky/mopey once we got back.

The question: Should I be being more proactive now in trying to keep her on the straight and narrow. For instance, I had no reason to think she had seen or tried to see OM when she went out to dinner with S17 (and remember, it was SHE who called ME to tell me she was over thereĺ, but should I have said something like " it was really good that you were able to get out and have some quality time with our son, but maybe it wasn't the best idea to go out to a place right over there next to OM hangout. We need to be doing everything we can to AVOID OM right now."

A similar situation is actually coming up tonight, we're at is senior night at our high school where the parents of the seniors go to find out everything we need to do for the upcoming year in high school and for college applications etc etc. The OM has two kids in my son's grade who are also seniors and he is almost certain to be there himself. Should my wife even go to this? Should I actively discourage her from doing so? I have already told her that I am going, but I know that she wants to go to see some of her other friends amongst the parents.

[Ginger1]

Sandy brongs up something very very important ot all of this that she has brought up multiple times, that I have brought up multiple times, along with other posters. But you dance around it just like you dance around it with your wife.

Do you have a verbal commitment from her that she is committed to working on your marriage? You need clarity on this for any of this to work. I think you are scared to find out she might be playing you until OM2 comes along. You are scared of her answer. But you NEED this answer to be effective going forward.

As for banning your W from important information about your sons future because OM is going to be there? Come on now. So if OM is at all school events, your W can't go? What would be your purpose in that, especially if you are there with her? Going to the same gym, or sometimes even working together (I don't agree in blocking this in every situation, especially if that job is the one that supports the family), or hanging out at the same bars is one thing, but if you live close, you can't keep her out of the grocery store, only map particular routes, ban her from school functions because he is there. You will pretty much have to move away, or she will go nuts and probably crack when trying to plot her life. ANd if you think she is truly done, then this shouldn't worry you as much, especially if she is letting you know.

If you isolate her over this, keeping her from school functions, from her friends, she will not stay. No contact and transparency is one thing, but trying to keep a 10 mile radius and isolating her is another. It will be doomed to fail.

[hoosjim]

Sandy brongs up something very very important ot all of this that she has brought up multiple times, that I have brought up multiple times, along with other posters. But you dance around it just like you dance around it with your wife.

"Danced around"? Really? Didn't even see where I addressed that suggestion by Sandi. Since it's on the table now, however, this is the most recent "indication" I have, FWIW: My W was the one to most recently bring up the counseling angle, saying she was going to cancel a class she had been planning on taking (and really looking forward to) so that we could go see our out of town counselor for both IC and MC. (four sessions in one day.) Has she used to words "I'm committed"? No, but I haven't asked her explicitly to do so. I'm trying to avoid forcing the MR convos these days, and let her bring things up. We will, however, need to schedule a preliminary with our MC first, at which time I am going to ask her Sandi's suggested "are you in or not" question. Within the next two days. Okay? I'm not "scared" of any answer... or I never would have even broached the subject with her.

And trust me, I fully understand the need to have her committed to this going forward.

On the other, I very much want to hear Sandi's take on this, and I tend to disagree with your take. At BEST, she is about four weeks in to "No contacting" the OM, assuming he has not tried to call or contact her and she has not sought him out. Pretty certain at least that she has not "seen" him. If Sandi is right that the "Drive bys" last week are a bit worrisome, then maybe, just maybe, and just for the SHORT TERM, mind you, it might not be a good idea for her to SEE the man. The venue would be a relatively small HS cafeteria where she would almost certainly see him with potential for "running into" him or more. If Sandi thinks there is no danger of setting her back, here, I will accept that, but knowing what I know after having seen her progress and fall back, and having read extensively now on affair addictiveness, etc., I am more than half inclined to think it would be a good idea for her to stay away... and then just meet her friends afterwards for a drink which was what she had already mentioned doing anyway (not staying away, but the getting a drink part.) I think this could be couched in a non-controlling and sensible way, in the context of what we are both going through right now and making clear it is not what I expect her to have to do long term in terms of limiting her attendance at functions. I can of course see it the other way, that it might not be harmful, but can also very, very easily see how it could be. If Sandi tells me I'm wrong and to STFU then I will retract, but I do not at all think my question is an unreasonable one.




And additional color on the "information vital to my son's future": We just went through this, including this same presentation, LAST fall for my older son who is now in college. Doubt there is going to be much if anything that is substantively "new"... especially since most of the guidance stuff is already available on-line. Think her MAIN focus on going was going to see her friends... whom she could of course still see afterwards if she goes out to get a drink.

[hoosjim]

Appending this to the most recent post: The specific question of going to tonight's parent's meeting has been OBE. She called me just now and said "Why don't you just go without me, I'll stick around for the end of my work day [she'd've had to have left early to go to the meeting] and then have dinner with S17]" My larger question for Sandi still stands, however: At least in the short term, should I be more proactive about things like a) where I knew she had those drive bys and, more importantly b) where we or she are going to be going somewhere like tonight's meeting where we are pretty sure OM is going to be? Will it set her back to "see" him in person even if I am there and there is no "interaction."?

Also, Ginger, my response to you seemed a little sharp, and I could have used better manners/phrasing, BUT... I do take exception to your characterizations of my most recent conversations and interactions. I have actually been pretty clear what I want/expect since this time last week:

I told her I didn't feel like it was good enough for us to be just trying to "see if feelings are going to pop up" but that we needed to be working on the marriage or not working on the marriage, period.

... and she seems to be receptive, as discussed above. We still have a lot of work to do in the short term in terms of discussing and setting expectations and ground rules, and then in the long term in terms of piecing once we get to that point, BUT... even though she hasn't said the words "I'm committed", her actions APPEAR to be saying she is. And, like I said, when we talk over the next couple of days about scheduling our IC and MC sessions, the first thing I am going to ask of her, point blank and explicitly, is "Are you sure you are in/committed and ready to do this". Her actions so far are saying yes, but, of course, I would love to hear her say it explicitly. Who wouldn't?

[sandi2]

The question: Should I be being more proactive now in trying to keep her on the straight and narrow. For instance, I had no reason to think she had seen or tried to see OM when she went out to dinner with S17 (and remember, it was SHE who called ME to tell me she was over thereĺ, but should I have said something like " it was really good that you were able to get out and have some quality time with our son, but maybe it wasn't the best idea to go out to a place right over there next to OM hangout. We need to be doing everything we can to AVOID OM right now."

Let me clarify something, in case I haven't in the past. When the WW shows remorse, takes responsibility for her actions, apologizes to her H, and commits to doing whatever it takes to save the M (including a transparency plan her H lays out)........this is the point in time that the H needs to start making some adjustments in his approach with her. Actually, he can do a lot more, once they are past the withdrawals and into piecing. You want to know when he can be her friend? He can start here. You want to know when he can support her, show how much he cares, share family activities with her...........this is the time. You want to recommend tapes and books.......as long as she's willing and interested, then that's fine. In other words, if she is seriously cooperating with you in an attempt to reconcile your relationship.......then you can slowly take a step toward her. However, if she pulls back, that probably means she wasn't ready for that move. I think this is especially touchy during withdrawals. She has to get that OM out of her head, before she can be completely receptive to her H. I just wanted you to understand that as she progresses and as the MR is healing........baby steps are made.

As they move into piecing, having a clear, no nonsense commitment from her, frees him to do these actions he was not free to do when she was rebelling against him. However, let me stress that in cases I've seen, he will have to go slowly and gently in showing these things. If he pours it on too quickly, she's going to turn tail and run. S-l-o-w and easy is the way to go. She can't handle much pressure. As long as she shows no outward signs of waywardness, he can continue to slowly close the gap. However, if her attitude starts to crack and that old wayward resentment and disrespect begins to seep through.......immediately pull back. Rinse and repeat.

Note: She is not the one coming to the board, therefore, she does not have it mapped out what she should do. IMHO, most WW's are going to avoid part of the things I've listed. If the H believes she is being truthful, he may have to tell her what he needs. For example, you told your W how hard it will be for you if she does not commit to the M. That should have been enough for the lightbulb to go off in her head. Why could she not say, "But Jim, I am committed to our M"............"I am willing to do whatever I have to, in order to get our MR in a good place".........."I feel terrible for what I've done".........."How will you ever be able to forgive me"? It doesn't have to be in the exact words, but should be enough that you would have a general idea of what she was communicating.

Not having a verbal commitment from the W that she is willing to do whatever is necessary to save the M........and an agreement and understanding about transparency, causes things to be much more complicated. So much, in fact, I would discourage any H to even attempt at calling this a reconciliation...........and certainly not piecing. For example, if she had committed, and if she understood how transparency was to help her through the withdrawals........then I'd have said to proceed with suggesting to her how having a glimpse of OM (whether intended or not) could reset her withdrawal time. In other words, she loses the ground gained and puts her back at square one. It's so important that she sees transparency as a means to help her........rather than being a way for the H to punish her, or satisfying his need to control her. Even with her full cooperation, I don't think the H should criteak her action every time........unless he has evidence that she's lying or withholding details of how it all played out. If he doubts her, I think it would be better to say nothing and consult with whatever verification resources he may have. Then, keep tabs on her, and see if the next time is another situation that takes her near OM.

To clarify, when the W has committed to transparency and working to save the M........I absolutely encourage the H to support her by being proactive. Planning ahead and discussing any potential pitfalls sounds reasonable, to me. I don't think it's wise to try to have these discussions when she appears cold and moody........or ask questions afterwards if she seems irritated. (This, of course, is from the viewpoint of a former WW, so bear that in mind). I was always resentful whenever my H took the tone of being my parent, or if I even saw a twinkle of self-righteousness in his face. It's not an easy time for either spouse.

The first couple of months are touchy for both spouses. His feelings are raw from the betrayal and lies. If she is honestly committed and is putting forth effort (especially whatever her H needs from her to feel secure), things could get intense on both sides if he asks too many questions. She begins to resent having to give an account, and starts seeing him wearing a judge's robe........or as being self righteous. So, it's not a fun time for anyone.

If the W has not made it clear that she wants to even save the M........much less, be transparent, then she actually holds all the power. Instead of teamwork, he'll never know where they stand. Is she playing games, is she lying, what should he do, etc.

You may not be able to go down the list and check off the things your W has done to meet the criteria of reconciliation. IMHO, if she isn't saying what you need to hear, I think asking her directly is better than being in the dark. I don't mean to put words in her mouth.........b/c like me, you say too many words, Jim. She'd likely to get lost in what it was you wanted to hear. . I told you one time not to put words into her mouth. In this case, I would put it in the form of a question.,,,,,,,and not keep talking.......and look at her till she gave an answer. "W, are you committed to doing what is necessary to save our M"? The trouble with her is she gives an unsatisfactory response. Like saying, "Isn't that what I've been doing for the past month"?

Finally, regarding her attending the parent meeting where everyone is in the same room.......I don't think it's a good idea. She will think you are trying to control her and she'll remind you how they could run in to each other in town, etc. Four weeks is just about the right time for those cravings to be hitting hard. In fact, it concerns me that she is using the old friends as an excuse to go. However, if she has no idea how addictive affairs are......then she doesn't know how to fight against what she feels. If you live in a small place, I think the chances of them seeing each other is greater, of course, but if she can get completely through the withdrawals.......maybe she'll look at him and wonder what she ever saw. I think four weeks is just not near long enough. If you pinned her down about passing his hangout......I bet she'd tell you she did it to test her feelings.

I feel like I've made a mess of this post. Sorry, if this is too muddy to understand. Hope I haven't confused anyone. Pleae ask questions, if needed.

[hoosjim]

I feel like I've made a mess of this post. Sorry, if this is too muddy to understand. Hope I haven't confused anyone. Pleae ask questions, if needed.

No Sandi, thanks... This is actually perhaps the most helpful post I have ever received on one of my threads. Alot to digest, though, and, you are correct... there is still alot more uncertainty than there should be. I am sure I will have more questions, but right now need to digest.

And, just to clarify, you are NOT suggesting i try to "pin her down" on driving past OM's hangout, correct? I am assuming that that was just speaking hypothetically....

[sandi2]

Don't ask questions about her driving by OM.