Well - it was a good thing that I "expected the unexpected".
Warning - long post.
The pre-meeting I requested was largely a bust as most of it was spent correcting documents that the clerk had mis-typed and my lawyer standing over her telling her how to use her computer.
I did manage to get a few minutes to ask about the agenda, room layout but pretty much nothing on strategy or getting the outcome I wanted. I believe that my lawyer was just wanting to fill out the forms, come to an agreement that matches the guidelines and move on. I had previously provided a document with my points and question for the pre-meeting to her but am quite sure she never saw it. She did say that she'd "glanced at it".
My lawyer was also upset with me asking about the rules for withdrawing from the collaborative process and also when I mentioned that I was perfectly willing to walk away from the table if I wasn't presented with an acceptable deal. I think she was wanting me to be a client who just went along and didn't make a fuss. To mis-quote Tweety-Bird "She don't know me very well do she". She kept pointing out multiple times that if I went to court that I would lose which may well be true. But that doesn't mean to me that you give up without trying. She also wasn't happy when I pointed out that I could live with the status quo.
The meeting itself started out reasonably ok with occasional laughter etc. The lawyers tried to spend a bunch of time playing therapist about S23's situation which I had to put a stop to. They also got into quite the mire talking about what date to value my pensions and other assets on to which I had to point out that we were chasing after things that were of less value than the fees would be to discuss.
The first big flare point was me mentioning the "draining" of the bank account which caused STBX to turn quite red and state that that I had "crossed a boundary". I did back-pedal a bit being the wuss that I am and we moved on.
I had hoped to get things resolved in one meeting but it was soon apparent that wasn't going to happen. The other side was not prepared. Hadn't filled out the forms, didn't know what they wanted etc, didn't have a bunch of the documents. I nicely agreed to send over copies of STBX's tax forms etc.
As we were starting to wrap up, the other lawyer started pushing me on a value for the house and what I thought an appropriate settlement on it would be. I brought up the prior proposed settlement from January which caused quite the eye flicker. I'm 90% sure she knew nothing about it. When she pushed a bit harder I stupidly (perhaps) referenced it and pointed out that there was no need to settle on the house because the guy that my ex ran off with had a lovely home.
Well - that caused STBX to turn beet red, state that I had crossed a line and storm out followed by her lawyer. My lawyer then proceeded to chew me out and then left to consult with her colleague. They both came back in STBX having left the building and chewed me out together for a while. I was able to point out that I was just making a point about the lack of need for handing over money and then got a bit weepy as I went through the timeline of my sitch. Both lawyers pushed that we both should be going to therapy. I let them know that I had already and that it helped me deal with suicidal times but that STBX had no interest in it and didn't feel that she needed it.
My lawyer told me later that the other lawyer had been told that OM only came into the picture "after" she had left home. I did advise that I had lots of evidence of that not being the case.
So - next meeting scheduled for a couple of weeks from now. I'm not looking forward to it. I just finished digging out some financial documents for the other side that they didn't have ready access to being a cooperative sort of guy that I am. I did tell my lawyer that I would be happy to entertain a counter-proposal and that the other side should in general have all the facts. I did feel that I was being asked to carry the ball for both sides during this meeting.
I'm pretty sure that my lawyer isn't happy with me but that's not a big problem for me. We did agree that she perhaps needs a mechanism to get me to STFU.
I think that STBX was surprised that I stood up for myself as much as I did. Historically she would roll right over me and I would do the "whatever you think is best dear" thing. I did toss out a couple of truth darts such as for S23 that "I do not abandon family".
Am I truly surprised at how things turned out? Not really. I am though p!ssed and stressed about it.
As far as the relationship between STBX and her guy - I have no further info on that. She mentioned several times that she is living in a small apartment which I'd pretty much known anyway. Not that it actually matters. She certainly didn't seem to have any interest in making up with me and probably really doesn't now that I appear to have a backbone.
I don't think everything is going well in Princess-Fairy-Land especially now that she's gotten a dose of reality. I do confess myself disappointed and rather saddened. I had hoped to get this over with in one session but that was overly optimistic I knew given that the lawyers want to do paper-work and drive up the bill - and yes - to make sure that their client's best interests are represented.
I think that this is going to be a long haul.
Thoughts and opinions and yes, even a 2X4 especially from the lawyerly types in the audience or others would be welcome.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Yes, were I your lawyer I would have been annoyed with you too. As a fellow sufferer, I understand the temptation to get those digs in wherever you can. I just imagine how much worse she would have felt if faced with a cool, calm, and collected Andrew who was informative, funny, breezy and ready for business. Bet he would have been a lot harder for her to deal with and you would have left the meeting with a happier Andrew, lawyer, and maybe fewer billable hours with an actual agreement.
How about next time you write out all the snark ahead of time and put it in your pocket. When you feel like saying it, remind yourself how above it all you are now.
You still rule and I love your updates either way.
The funny personable Andrew was there for most of the meeting. There was no way that I would have gotten an agreement today though. The other side was completely unprepared and had no documents to share nor any sort of proposal. Her lawyer had never (I believe) seen the settlement proposal either otherwise she wouldn't have been shocked by it much less when I stated my reasoning which was in the document.
My lawyer actually said that she thought it was going well right until it blew up. In my defense how could I know that my ex had lied to her lawyer much less be offended by me pointing out that she had someone else who could provide for her more luxuriously than I could.
As far as my darts go, I think the single one I cast had no impact.
My original plan had been to try to keep the digging into details to a minimum and to take the entire counter offer on board before responding. I failed there by allowing myself to be badgered into responding to a single issue.
Hopefully at the next meeting if it happens they will be more prepared as will my own lawyer who I was disappointed in for her lack of preparation. I don't know how my ex will deal with the fact that she was caught in such a significant lie and that she was withholding significant documents. She has a history of avoiding dealing with tough issues.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
I think a bit of 'snark' is ok, Andrew, without going to war. My STBXH has stolen money and lied to his own L. (He now admits that). It is uncomfortable for him to look at some of the facts of his own actions. I get that, but it isn't our job anymore to soothe and protect our spouses. We got fired from the job, right? Like your W, my H has withheld documents and not prepared info. In our M, I always did the admin...well, not my job anymore to do it for his D. Fortunately, my L is better...
I guess what matters is you focusing as logically as you can on what you need and want. But it isn't easy, I know.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
I think you handled the meeting quite well considering everything that came about. A large majority of the mlcers will not be prepared for meetings to settle up finances, etc., for a divorce. They just won't do the work and ultimately, it is left to us to do the difficult work of getting things together and being the properly prepped individual when negotiating.
The mlcer has tends to think that everything will go their way and that we will roll over and give them anything and everything we ask for. Why? Because in their minds, we love them to bits and will do anything to smooth the way and hopefully if we give the bank account to them, that maybe, just maybe, down the road we think that they will reconsider and reconcile. I like the fact that you are standing firm on your finances and your home. She walked, she will need to deal w/the consequences of her actions.
I will be very surprised if you get this wrapped in a second meeting. Most of the time, it takes more than a couple of meetings to finally get things done, i.e., agreed upon, signed and sealed. I hope, that in your case, things will move along quickly so that you can put this to rest and move on w/your life and not have to deal w/the mlc monster any longer.
As for the "snarking"...I understand...but try to keep them to a minimum and keep your focus more on what you want and the end result.
Sit quietly, the answers will reveal themselves when you least expect them to. The past is gone, the present is a gift and you need to focus on today, allow the future to reveal itself when it is ready.
The reality of the situation is that it is irrelevant what sort of house her AP has or what kind of life he lives.
I'm surprised the lawyers on both sides went forward with an expensive meeting that was clearly premature. The time to meet to resolve these things is after the disclosures and proposals have been made and the horse-trading is ready to begin.
I suppose I'm not surprised that she wasn't ready, though isn't she the one who wanted this? Mine is completely incapable of producing any information or proposals on his own. Until he asks me for a laundry list of things requested by his lawyer I will know that he has not been to one.
Since this isn't what you want and is not likely to be her allowing things to simply transfer in accordance with the status quo, which you indicate is good for you, you might just want to sit tight and insist on proof that she is ready to go the next time before you waste your time and money showing up.
Thanks everyone. The meeting minutes arrived around lunch and I've sent back my corrections (yes I have my own copy of Roberts Rules of Order) along with the secondary documents and numbers that were on my "to do" list.
OwnIt - Thanks for the input - I just sent a follow-up email to my lawyer stating that it was my expectation at the next meeting to be presented with a reasonable and acceptable counter-proposal and that if one were not available that the meeting should be deferred. I did also mention in the letter that I reserved my right to not accept any deal in this round of negotiations but that I was open to further rounds at a future date. To no-one's surprise the original email I composed was about 5 pages long and a friend proof-read it and it got cut back to about 5 short paragraphs.
So - while I'm not specifically driving this bus I do seem to be putting most of the fuel into it. Time for me to back off and let the other side make the next move.
I don't know what my former W expected yesterday but I don't think she got it. She did actually state that she hoped we'd all be "friends" afterwards. She did see that I can be civil at least. I was a bit disappointed to see some of the old passive-aggressive things she does where she will refuse to answer a direct question or will defer answering a question on a minor matter just to show that she has the power to do that.
Sigh. Wake me when it's over.
On BD H52, W50 T27, M26 S21, D23 BD-9-Mar-16 D-15-Jan-18 Final-19-Apr-18 I am a storyteller. The story may do you no good. But a story is never for the listener. It is always for the one who tells
Hey AP, I don't have any advice on this as we do it very differently here in the UK but I just wanted to say that you sound like you are holding up considering the circumstances. I hope when and if I get to this stage that I can be as strong and as confident as you!
(((AP)))
Me - 47 H - 45 D-16 M - 6 years Separated - May 16
Don't leave me behind can't you see me I'm shining... (Years & Years - 'Shine')
I have wondered why my STBX has mentioned he'd like to be 'friends' again too. We were best friends who became lovers who ended up getting married. We remained best friends right up until the day he walked. Or at least I thought we had.
Unfortunately he's forgotten that I have never been friends with people who treat others with disrespect, dishonesty and disregard. That friendship rule of mine isn't going to change any time soon.
I should imagine, AndrewP, that you're not all that keen on becoming friends with somebody as cavalier with your feelings as your STBX?
