I also think that notion that you can't wait it out is related. It's like "Hey, I'll give you a shot post A with this marriage as long as you come back in time for me to avoid the loss of my marriage and the grieving, but if I have to suffer that loss and rebuild my life anyway I'm not getting back into bed with a two timing snake!"
The hope of avoiding loss is the lever WW's use to control the LBS.
Me:38 XW:38 T:11 years M:8 years Kids: S14, D11, D7 BD/Move out day: 6/17/14, D final Dec 15
I hear you talk about taking two years to come around... I can't make it two more years.
"Come around"? Listen carefully. It did not take two years for me to end the A. It did not take two years for me to commit to staying in my M. So, not sure how you mean "to come around", but I was explaining how long it took me to finally feel remorse. I had carried resentment in my heart for more years than I'm willing to tell. As I have said so many times, the WW has a process, or transformation, she must go through, and not every one takes the same amount of time. It begins with her decision to do the right thing. But that's just one step. It's a great step........but she has more to take. Are you thinking you cannot stay with her if she doesn't go through the entire process at once? Would you see her ending the A as "coming around"? ...........or are you referring to her entire transformation?
Have I not told you before that she would not likely bounce right back into being 100% her old self? Look, she can make the decision to end her A and stay in the M...........but her feelings for you may need time to catch up. It took me so long to get through the withdrawals and then I was depressed for months. (Had the depression before the A, too). However, I was in the M and was showing respect for my H. We were getting along. In other words, my outward waywardness behavior had stopped, and I was working on the thoughts and feelings. The last part to overcome was that part that had been in my heart the longest...........resentment. If my H would have cooperated in us going to MC, I doubt seriously that it would have taken that long for me to "come around".
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Look, she can make the decision to end her A and stay in the M...........but her feelings for you may need time to catch up. It took me so long to get through the withdrawals and then I was depressed for months. (Had the depression before the A, too). However, I was in the M and was showing respect for my H.
As you so accurately note, my W has still not decided to stay "in the M"... and I anticipated that this was a strong possibility even if the A was ended (and assuming in fact it is ended, which i understand is not a slam dunk.) Even my MC/IC has said that my W, at least as of our last session over 3 weeks ago, "is not ready to work on the MR" and was doubtful she was ready to "fully give up the relationship with the OM" based on her concern for OM being "hurt". The best my W has said is "I'm still here, aren't I" and that she wants to see if we can build some good memories... but we've already hashed all of that out and I agree completely that it is not "enough".
Q is, how do I deal with this now? It's more likely than not she has ended the A. There's a thousand little things and I know her better than anyone, even better now since surveilling her for weeks, and I believe she probably has. At least for now. Irrevocably and forever? Idunno. It's been three weeks. And bff is a bad influence. Who's to say? I gave her a pass on calling OM in my presence and then made that possibility OBE by confronting him myself. The burner phone she says she tried to get the number from bff but bff had deleted all records of it (conveniently, I know, but wouldn't surprise me as bff is a serial cheater herself) and she has no other purchase or other records of phone-- cash purchase. As for the first burner... no, she never "brought it to me" herself, but I did see the shattered remains of it in her purse and have the actual records on that phone and have confirmed it is out of commission. Still don't know why she never actively showed it to me when she broke it up but... whatever. Lingering rebellion, maybe? She told me one of her feelings when doing it was "Okay fine, Eff you, I'll get rid of it." This was a couple of months back, recall. But what's happening now feels different. Perhaps not enough, but different. I should have stuck to my original stance and kept telling her I didn't want her here... but I didn't. And now, if she is NC-ing... is turning her away or trying to force her out the best thing to be doing?
Anyway, A or no A, she is still "not all in", doesn't want to resume counselling (which I consider essential but which I also understand as one of the standard DB principles you shouldn't push/force on a WAS), and passed on the two biggest opportunities to show me her trustworthiness/loyalty (calling OM and giving me 2nd burner phone). She's also clearly somewhat attracted to the fun, free, single girl lifestyle her bff and another divorced friend are leading. In other words, I don't feel like I can trust her fully and don't feel like she's in a place where I necessarily want to be investing time in the MR. But seems like I've lost the initiative on "kicking her out", and if she's truly NC-ing, maybe that's not appropriate anyway. I clearly need to back way the eff off somehow, though.
You're right that I have needlessly complicated this.
Any merit to the idea of treating this is a straight DB-ing sitch with a WAS at this point? Laying back, playing it cool and confident, not pursuing or forcing MR talks... but without the move out? Cuz I don't think she moves out at this point without me, on some level, getting harsh with her, and not sure at all that I want to be the one to move out of my own home. Certainly no consequences there for her other than losing me (though that is a much bigger loss now than it was a few months back--apparently she speaks pretty highly of me to her friends these days). I've toyed with the idea of just packing my truck and camping out (I love camping) for a week or so once the kid is off at college.
Open to suggestions. And I have to admit that I find the cacaphony of voices on this site confusing at times. I recall Cadet posting somewhere early in the newcomer's threads something to the effect that "you will hear a lot of advice and ideas on here and not are all completely consistent with DB-ing. DB-ing is bringing more love into your marriage, things that are more selfishly oriented are not DB-ing." I know WWs are a special case, but there are different shades of thinking amongst many posting on my thread, and some seem to veer a little towards a "selfish" bias at times. Certainly folks that have had a harder time with their spouses seem to espouse (no pun intended) a "harder line". Please don't anybody get me wrong, I am appreciative of all the input here, and am shamefaced at the way I have obviously effed all of this up to some degree. Am still willing to hear input on all of this.
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
And, yes, to all here watching, I totally get the importance of "doing me." I actually think I am "doing me" pretty well these days. Just need to figure out where the line of demarcation is between "me" and "her". Even if i completely end all interaction with her... then there is some interaction involved in doing that, get it? Just trying to figure out the best way to handle that... because there are multiple ways to go about it and I have already botched this pretty badly in terms of how I have interfaced with her...
H53/W51, R-ing 4/'18
"Do not arouse or awaken love until it so desires"-Sg.of Sg 2:7
"So oftentimes it happens,that we live our lives in chains, & we never even know we have the key"-Eagles III 1:3
There are a few possibilities w/ the same underlying premise -
- What if the way for you to rebuild something with your w is to admit that this marriage is gone and let her go in order for her to discover what she has lost...?
Or maybe you can co-exist under the same roof but learn to detach.
Both of these^^ mean you stop focusing on her and stop trying to control the outcome. Your posts have the theme of " W did/said this and then she said XYZ" and how you feel about this. Your posts are reactive.
BTW, yes there is a paradox inherent in DBing. On one hand, people come here to help save their sanity/hearts and to save their marriages. So in a way - they are all trying to affect the outcome. That is why I posted the lines from Swingers.
At the very core of this site is the desire to live more authentically, to stop letting fear or selfishness dictate our behavior.
No more staying stuck, no more resisting change, or pretending not to notice red flags, We need to become our best selves.
The irony is that we have to be our best self to have a healthy happy marriage, but we do not need the happy marriage to become our best self.
You have tried to remain under the same roof and it has Not improved anything.
I think you could feel/project more self confidence and start to heal without the constant monitoring of your w's behavior, and the self doubt it creates.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
It's not about abandoning or punishing your wife.. You can detach from her, find a life of your own, without it being a negative toward her. It's not about treating her a certain way, it's about taking care of yourself, treating yourself well, enjoying yourself, and not tying everything you do to her. You are allowed to have, even encouraged to have, a life of your own. Doesn't mean she will always be excluded from that life, it just means that you have a life whether she participates in it or not..
Read TexasHubby thread, it's the best descriptive I've seen regarding getting a life while living with uncommitted spouse.
As you pointed out, there are a lot of different opinions on the board. You seem paralyzed by the variety, and yet you consistently ask for people to weigh in.
I have a strong opinion about what you should do, but I don't think another opinion will help.
I think the important thing is for you to make a decision and then stick with it long enough to see what effect it has. And that means not constantly thinking about it and monitoring but telling yourself you'll evaluate in a month and then not even looking at the evidence until then.
Me: 44 H: 44 Kids: 20, 16, 16, and 10 Together/Married: 22 years H announced he was emotionally detached and considering D: 4/4/16 H announced he is going to try to stay and reconnect: 5/1/16
Jim, the interesting thing here is you say it could get confusing with the cacophony of advice. But where I stand everyone is telling you the exact same thing.
This isn't exactly a comparison, but I am going to tell you what helps me not think about the other person.
My exH is a while other story. but I have been seperated/divorced for 9 years and I've been in the dating game.
I had a seriously hard time getting over my last boyfriend. We dated for a short period of time, but I thought he had serious potential to be the one. We broke up for obstacles that couldn't be overcome (him wanting kids in 5 years, me being too old in 5 years). Anyways, he got a new gf right away. I saw it on FB via his sister. I was devastated. So what did I do? I blocked him on FB, I blocked the GF on FB and I unfollowed his sister so I don't get surprise pictures I am not prepared for.
Now I compare this to the last guy I had loved before him. He was a friend of a friend so I knew a lot about him and his new GF and it was very hard for me to move on.
My point being..... without a commitment to working on the M which she CLEARLY hasn't given you, you need to just not pay attention to any of the going on's in her life. You need to have no clue with what's going on between her and BFF or OM. You need to block all your access to that information which can give you the chance to speculate. You need to take her completely off your radar and focus only on yours.
UNTIL....... she has both feet in piecing the R. Until then it only keeps you stuck and spinning if you know what's going on in her life. I would block her on social media and actually restrict all access to whatever she is doing. It will give you peace and the ability to take your focus way off of her.
It is working much better for me, I can tell you that. My ex and I separated in 2008, the year FB came to life. Both him and I took a while to join but his AP was on, and I would go and torture myself. I stopped eventually. Ex and I have a civil R and me and his AP even have a civil R now, but no, I will never friend them. My exH's crazy sister from AZ tried to friend me and I kindly told her I didn't think it was a good idea because I just didn't feel like seeing pictures of my D, ex and his OWW. (I was just getting to a good place at this point, and I didn't need a setback). She understood.
Self-protection is the most important thing you can do for now. If a time comes where you need transparency or some snooping abilities, then resume. But right now, I think it is the last thing you need.
Look, she can make the decision to end her A and stay in the M...........but her feelings for you may need time to catch up. It took me so long to get through the withdrawals and then I was depressed for months. (Had the depression before the A, too). However, I was in the M and was showing respect for my H.
As you so accurately note, my W has still not decided to stay "in the M"... and I anticipated that this was a strong possibility even if the A was ended (and assuming in fact it is ended, which i understand is not a slam dunk.)
I was trying to explain that she could make the decision to do the right thing, and it could start the transformation of restoring loving feelings. But you are correct, she is giving unclear answers........b/c it has worked for her previously. If she rides the fence and gives you answers that really say nothing at all...........then she is not trying to do the right thing. She's trying to figure out how to keep one foot in the M and one foot in the singles lifestyle. By saying, "I am here, aren't I", is what she said last time while she continued her A. So, Is she saying she is still at this resident, but she'll live however she wants? Is that same response adequate this time around? IDK, that's up to you. You are the one living in this situation. I can give you my thoughts about it, but the choices are always your own.
Quote:
Q is, how do I deal with this now? It's more likely than not she has ended the A. There's a thousand little things and I know her better than anyone, even better now since surveilling her for weeks, and I believe she probably has. At least for now. Irrevocably and forever? Idunno. It's been three weeks. And bff is a bad influence. Who's to say?
Yes indeed, the BFF is a terrible influence. The danger now, is your W behaving like GGW to match her idol's (BFF) lifestyle. Jumping from one man to a string of ONS's is certainly not the path you want her to take.......but that decision is up to her. Currently, you are sounding as if you feel defeated. However, I think you are in a position of strong influence. Maybe not easy........but strong. This can be a crossroads for your W. If she chooses to follow her BFF's example, you probably won't see much improvement in your MR...........unless she gets her eyes open and sees how that influence is harming her MR. What can you do about it? That's entirely up to you.
This is only a suggestion, and I am not twisting your arm. Taking a couple of weeks to camp out, may be good for you, Jim. I love nature, too, and it has a way of clearing my mind to see things in better perspective. You have been under great stress for months, so take a break for your health sake. If you decide to go camping, I suggest you tell her something like, "We both have some serious decisions to make, and I need some time away".
If you don't want to engage in a transparency plan, then fine.......toss it. You don't have to do it just b/c I recommended it. If your W is not committed, how could you ever trust her to tell the truth? This so-called transparency game she is playing by telling you where she's going is nothing. The H is the one to decide the plan. If the W doesn't want to cooperate, then he can decide if he wants to stay with a cheater.
Quote:
I should have stuck to my original stance and kept telling her I didn't want her here... but I didn't. And now, if she is NC-ing... is turning her away or trying to force her out the best thing to be doing?
Ordinarily I would tell the H to stay, b/c she will need his support while going through withdrawals. However, this is for the W who is serious about saving her M. Not one who wants to take the easy way out and drop a few crumbs here and there to keep the H hanging on. For your W to kick the withdrawals, with the BFF constantly pulling her into the singles lifestyle........would be extroninary, IMHO. It would be like expecting an alcoholic to go through withdrawal while his buddies take him to a bar every night. I'm just saying that your W needs a lot of motivation to change.
Quote:
Lingering rebellion, maybe?
Why did you think it ever left? The rebellion keeps her from committing to do what is required to save the M.
Quote:
Anyway, A or no A, she is still "not all in", doesn't want to resume counselling (which I consider essential but which I also understand as one of the standard DB principles you shouldn't push/force on a WAS),
Oh.................I see where you are going with this.
Quote:
Any merit to the idea of treating this is a straight DB-ing sitch with a WAS at this point? Laying back, playing it cool and confident, not pursuing or forcing MR talks... but without the move out? Cuz I don't think she moves out at this point without me, on some level, getting harsh with her, and not sure at all that I want to be the one to move out of my own home. Certainly no consequences there for her other than losing me (though that is a much bigger loss now than it was a few months back
This makes me want to scream and pull my hair out! You are insinuating that you have received advice to not play it cool and to not be confident. How many times were you told to pursue her and to force R talks? Heck, you are the one who is always wanting to talk about things and saying you don't know how not to talk about it. And finally.........who has ever told you to get harsh with her, unless you see standing strong and confident as meaning to be harsh.
Here's the deal. You don't want to move out. And, to save face, you think you have to flip her from a WW to a "straight DB - WAS". B/c right now, having a WAW seems much easier than a WW, and requires no tough love from the LBH. And there's the rub..........the tough love of enforcing boundaries.
Quote:
Open to suggestions. And I have to admit that I find the cacaphony of voices on this site confusing at times. I recall Cadet posting somewhere early in the newcomer's threads something to the effect that "you will hear a lot of advice and ideas on here and not are all completely consistent with DB-ing. DB-ing is bringing more love into your marriage, things that are more selfishly oriented are not DB-ing." I know WWs are a special case, but there are different shades of thinking amongst many posting on my thread, and some seem to veer a little towards a "selfish" bias at times
Wow! Instead of saying "open to suggestions", why don't you just say who you want to post on your threads? I'm sure nobody wants to confuse you with selfish, biased thoughts. You are a grown a$$ man, for crying out loud! Stop blaming someone else.... or trying to twist things around to match your own inabilities to enforce your boundaries.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
