A familiar story with questions. II

[RR17]

Original thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2753338&page=1

[quote=RR17]So W has been nice like nothing happened, for several days. It was a week ago today that she went to see D Attorney and I've had no updates, no mention.

Typical dilemma, I am not to initiate R conversations, yet have personal boundaries. Well, my boundaries tell me that you don't get to pretend like this never happened.

Suggestions, please?

Well, I'm not sure why not. Obviously, I can't control her actions, but I can decide that I'm not going to sit still while she holds this action over my head.

I'm not here to debate the definition of Boundaries, but am I that far off?

[RR17]

Sorry, here is the full quote:

So W has been nice like nothing happened, for several days. It was a week ago today that she went to see D Attorney and I've had no updates, no mention.

Typical dilemma, I am not to initiate R conversations, yet have personal boundaries. Well, my boundaries tell me that you don't get to pretend like this never happened.

Sugestions, please?

That's not a boundary.

[Coconut]

Let me ask you, if she pretends like this never happened, what will you do???

A boundary isn't a rule, you can't say "You don't get to pretend.." and call it a boundary, a boundary is how you control what goes on around you. So to turn that into a boundary, it would be something like:

"If you pretend this never happened, then I will not communicate with you directly, only through our lawyers."

That would be a boundary because you are not telling her what to do, you are only saying what you will do if she does it.

[Treasur]

Sorry if I offended you with a lengthy explanation. Did it because most of us struggle with boundaries but I shall sip a boundary STFU smoothie and wish you well, RRI7!

[RR17]

I'm far from offended, Treasur. lol

I Just think "Boundaries" are an abstract that I believe I understand. I could be wrong. But I'm not here to split hairs. If I have personal policies or limitations of what I am willing to tolerate, is that not a boundary?

What I am contemplating is whether I wait for W to start an R conversation as covered in the books or do I express my personal boundaries and let her know that sweeping this last week's developments under the rug is not acceptable?

I do appreciate all the help.

[Coconut]

RR, it may help if you can post what you are planning on saying to her? Letting someone know about a boundary is generally done when the boundary is crossed, no need to have a R talk when stating a boundary, it's more of a matter of fact statement, such as:

(WW is being disrespectful to you during a conversation) You state that I will not be disrespected, if you disrespect me again I will not continue this conversation. (She disrespects you again) You tell her that you are hanging up, or walking away, and the conversation can be continued at a later date/time if she is able to be respectful.

[sandi2]

Typical dilemma, I am not to initiate R conversations, yet have personal boundaries. Well, my boundaries tell me that you don't get to pretend like this never happened.

As is common of the LBS, you can't figure out a way to deal with things without having a R talk. So, you try to label it a boundary. A boundary doesn't give you a pass for a R talk. Is this a boundary you had previously set, or are you wanting to call it boundary after the fact? If she dishonored your boundary, then you are the only one who has an action response........which should have some type of consequence for her. This consequence does not include talking. Having a R talk is never a consequence for breaking a boundary. So, without any discussions.........what would you do about her pretending nothing happened? A boundary is suppose to protect you. What action will you take to protect you from her pretense that she has not seen her lawyer?

Btw, have you seen a lawyer yet? Most of us will advise the LBS to get legal advice, and say nothing about it to their WS. I think that's pretty much what she has done, and it gets you b/c she isn't talking about it and acting "as if".

[RR17]

Okay, I really don't think I am trying to mislabel anything.

Is this a boundary you had previously set, or are you wanting to call it boundary after the fact? If she dishonored your boundary, then you are the only one who has an action response........which should have some type of consequence for her.

As a personal boundary set within myself, yes. This meeting with the L wasn't supposed to be an act of aggression. She said she was going to gather information. Information to have an amicable D because I didn't want to S.

I believe that this meeting may have woken her up from a Fog. IDK
She has been nice and respectful and more friendly since going. All good stuff.
The problem is she has never expressed her findings or whether she plans to proceed or not. Nothing.

I have been patient for a week. Wait for the shoe to drop only she has done an 180. So much so that as of now I am leaning toward WAW instead of WW. Again IDK.

What do I plan to say? Well, I'm still contemplating saying anything. If I did I guess it would be along the lines of "I have been wondering what you found out and what your next move is?"
Yea, I know sounds like an R talk.

[Rose888]

So, your boundary is that your wife isn't allowed to meet with an attorney without telling you about it within one week?

And if she tries to, you are going to ask her about it?

This still doesn't sound like a boundary, nor does it seem like it would help your sitch at all.

[RR17]

Rose888 now you are putting words in my mouth.

Can we please stop with the boundaries stuff?

No, you are not allowed to take the 1st step to turning my life and our families life on it's head and then act like nothing ever happened. Not without an explanation.

[Rose888]

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. That was what I understand you to be saying.

But I'm going to stay out of your thread from here on.

[RR17]

Rose888, sorry to hear you feel this way.

I'm trying to seek advice for my sitch.

Perhaps debating the merits of personal boundaries would be better saved for another time.

[RR17]

Let me ask you, if she pretends like this never happened, what will you do???

A boundary isn't a rule, you can't say "You don't get to pretend.." and call it a boundary, a boundary is how you control what goes on around you. So to turn that into a boundary, it would be something like:

"If you pretend this never happened, then I will not communicate with you directly, only through our lawyers."

That would be a boundary because you are not telling her what to do, you are only saying what you will do if she does it.

Okay, "If you pretend this never happened, then I will express my concern and discomfort".

How's that?

[AnotherStander]

I believe that this meeting may have woken her up from a Fog. IDK
She has been nice and respectful and more friendly since going. All good stuff.

WAS's run hot and cold, don't read anything into it.

The problem is she has never expressed her findings or whether she plans to proceed or not. Nothing.

If you give her space and remove all pressure from her, she may very well put it on the back burner and quit talking about it. It's not unusual.

"I have been wondering what you found out and what your next move is?" Yea, I know sounds like an R talk.

Well it is an R talk, but if it's eating you up then go ahead and ask her. Just don't be surprised to find out she is indeed still proceeding. She may be gathering info for her L to draw up the papers. I remember early in my sitch, my W talked a lot about moving out, then she just stopped talking about it. I thought maybe she had changed her mind, so I asked her. Nope, she was still full steam ahead, she just didn't feel obliged to keep me updated. Once a W becomes a WAS, the H is the last person to hear about anything that is going on with them.

[RR17]

Typical dilemma, I am not to initiate R conversations, yet have personal boundaries. Well, my boundaries tell me that you don't get to pretend like this never happened.

As is common of the LBS, you can't figure out a way to deal with things without having a R talk. So, you try to label it a boundary. A boundary doesn't give you a pass for a R talk. Is this a boundary you had previously set, or are you wanting to call it boundary after the fact? If she dishonored your boundary, then you are the only one who has an action response........which should have some type of consequence for her. This consequence does not include talking. Having a R talk is never a consequence for breaking a boundary. So, without any discussions.........what would you do about her pretending nothing happened? A boundary is suppose to protect you. What action will you take to protect you from her pretense that she has not seen her lawyer?

Btw, have you seen a lawyer yet? Most of us will advise the LBS to get legal advice, and say nothing about it to their WS. I think that's pretty much what she has done, and it gets you b/c she isn't talking about it and acting "as if".

Sandi, as I would imagine most of us here do, I take your post very seriously.
I am trying to understand.
I'm not worried about getting a jump on legal counsel. At this point our assets are minimal and the kids are old enough where they can choose. If I get served with unreasonable demands I can pursue representation. At this point, I have done nothing wrong and grounds would be irreconcilable differences. Thanks for the concern.

If the consequences don't include talking, what should I do?
Wait, watch?

She has slowly added terms of endearment back into the routine. Kisses goodbye for the day etc.

I'm not sure what is next. I fear ignoring the recent events is a bad option.

[theoden]

RR17,

I'm not going to discuss boundaries.

Is this information below correct?

1. You wife has indicated she wants out of the marriage, has sought legal advice, and now is suddenly nice or nicer (calm before the storm?). She hasn't seemingly acted on anything yet. She hasn't updated you on the legal advice she's gotten (which is very smart were she about to run you over with mack truck). You are wondering is she biding her time before you get served, or is she genuinely not sure what she wants.

2. You aren't sure if she's having an affair (emotional or physical) with anyone at this point (wayward wife). She may just be a WAW.

3.You want some clarity about her plans/intentions, but don't want to start a relationship conversation, because that appears needy or pursuing.


OK here's my take.....

It appears she's retaining the initiative here. You are waiting for her to do something. Maybe she'll file for divorce. Maybe she'll want counseling. Either way, she's playing this well. You are worried, she's planning.

So...start to plan. ;-)

Here's 2 things you can do without having the R conversation.

1. Consult a lawyer immediately. Really. Sandi is quite patient. And if she's telling you to do this, I suggest you do it. Be prepared.

2. Hire a private investigator to determine if she's having an affair. If she's not, then at least you know you can take a more "wait and see" posture and deal with a WAW rather than a Wayward. You can do all 180's and GAL to you heart's content. Become the magical, amazing, strong, centered, cool person that only a fool will leave. Put a time-limit on your DB efforts (3 mos, 6 mos, 12 mos). If you're wife wants back in, then get into counseling, save the marriage and ride off into the sunset. Oh yeah, don't forget to keep up the superman persona you've taken on for the rest of your life. ;-) Now, if your wife is ambivalent after testing her interest periodically, and your DB time limit is expired, and your STILL in Limbo, you can move to the After The Last Resort Technique, and then, perhaps, the Ultimatum. When you give your ultimatum, have a plan of action with your lawyer already set up.

NOW if the PI discovers she's having an affair - you need to have that R conversation.

1 If you want to save the marriage....I suggest you confront confront with evidence and provide an ultimatum. Me or him. If she chooses you, she must agree to complete transparency, end the relationship with OM and agree to marriage counseling with you. If she can't make a decision, right there, or decides against the marriage, then... cancel all joint credit cards, empty your savings account by half and open your own account, and call your lawyer and put into action what plan you agreed upon. If you divorce, know what you want.

2. If you don't want to save the marriage...cancel all joint credit cards, empty your savings account by half and open your own account, and call your lawyer and put into action what plan you agreed upon. If you divorce, know what you want.

Dunno if any of this helps. Seems seeing a lawyer and finding out if she's having an affair would be two productive things to do while not having a R conversation.

--Theoden

[RR17]

Well it is an R talk, but if it's eating you up then go ahead and ask her. Just don't be surprised to find out she is indeed still proceeding. She may be gathering info for her L to draw up the papers.

Well, the not knowing is eating me up. I also am prepared to proceed in the best way possible. If this includes giving her more time, I will.

I know that the WAS run hot N cold and the wrong words will affect that.

Gut tells me that, as explained in the book, I should express my dissatisfactions as they affect me. I also know that timing is everything. "Given that you spoke to a D attorney, I feel uneasy not hearing your intentions.." or something like that. Perhaps in a text or email so as to take all inflection or emotion that could be misconceived out of it. THis also gives her time to gather her thoughts and removes pressure.

I'm all ears here.

[RR17]

1. You wife has indicated she wants out of the marriage, has sought legal advice, and now is suddenly nice or nicer (calm before the storm?). She hasn't seemingly acted on anything yet. She hasn't updated you on the legal advice she's gotten (which is very smart were she about to run you over with mack truck). You are wondering is she biding her time before you get served, or is she genuinely not sure what she wants.

True, except W said she wanted 90 day S to decide what she wants. I refused to move out and said if she wants out, a quick D was better. After consulting her Attny brother she said she went in for a consultation with another attny in his office. The understanding was that it would be cheaper and amicable.
(This was before reading DR and finding this board)
She is not a good actor and her 180 seems genuine. IDK

2. You aren't sure if she's having an affair (emotional or physical) with anyone at this point (wayward wife). She may just be a WAW.

True

3.You want some clarity about her plans/intentions, but don't want to start a relationship conversation, because that appears needy or pursuing

True

1. Consult a lawyer immediately. Really. Sandi is quite patient. And if she's telling you to do this, I suggest you do it. Be prepared.

2. Hire a private investigator to determine if she's having an affair. If she's not, then at least you know you can take a more "wait and see" posture and deal with a WAW rather than a Wayward. You can do all 180's and GAL to you heart's content. Become the magical, amazing, strong, centered, cool person that only a fool will leave. Put a time-limit on your DB efforts (3 mos, 6 mos, 12 mos). If you're wife wants back in, then get into counseling, save the marriage and ride off into the sunset. Oh yeah, don't forget to keep up the superman persona you've taken on for the rest of your life. ;-) Now, if your wife is ambivalent after testing her interest periodically, and your DB time limit is expired, and your STILL in Limbo, you can move to the After The Last Resort Technique, and then, perhaps, the Ultimatum. When you give your ultimatum, have a plan of action with your lawyer already set up.

NOW if the PI discovers she's having an affair - you need to have that R conversation.

1 If you want to save the marriage....I suggest you confront confront with evidence and provide an ultimatum. Me or him. If she chooses you, she must agree to complete transparency, end the relationship with OM and agree to marriage counseling with you. If she can't make a decision, right there, or decides against the marriage, then... cancel all joint credit cards, empty your savings account by half and open your own account, and call your lawyer and put into action what plan you agreed upon. If you divorce, know what you want.

2. If you don't want to save the marriage...cancel all joint credit cards, empty your savings account by half and open your own account, and call your lawyer and put into action what plan you agreed upon. If you divorce, know what you want.

All sage advice. As of now, I don't think she is having a PA. She may be involved in some degree of inappropriate pre EA or not. IDK. A PI at this point seems expensive and not necessary.
I have the experience of knowing what she was like from 3 years ago full blown EA. It is very different this time. She seems taken by the real risk of D. I realize this is my take and I could be wrong. I think she is using the D appointment as emotional currency. If that makes sense?

Right now without proof of any A, I want to try and save my marriage. I want to do it in the right way where she deals with whatever she needs to address and I don't have to go through this again.

Without sounding too self-serving, I believe her Happiness issues, are her own. I want her to address these things. I'm happy to help her. I'm sure I could become a better me, but I don't think I prevent her happiness.

[sandi2]

Sandi, as I would imagine most of us here do, I take your post very seriously.
I am trying to understand.

Based on your post, your initial iritation was due to your W being nice and acting as if nothing has happened. I think Rose and I were trying to say that your W "acting as if" isn't really boundary material ("She doesn't get to act as if nothing has happened"). Nevertheless, if you had set that as one of your boundaries.........then what was the consequence of breaking it? See what I mean? That was what I wanted you to see. To have an effective boundary, is to have consequences. IMO, I thought you were really wanting to talk to your W......and was looking for something to justify a R talk, based on how your statement read of boundaries and R talk. But now, you are frustrated. I apologize if I have confused you.

Theoden makes good suggestions. In your last post you said it was the not knowing that was really eating at you. I assume you mean not knowing if there is OM? If that's the case, then hire someone to find out. However, I doubt it will affect the D.

If you were referring to not knowing what your W found out at the lawyer's office.......then just ask her. But don't try to call it a boundary. Also, she has the right not to reveal what she found out.........just as you wouldn't have to tell her what your lawyer said.

She has slowly added terms of endearment back into the routine. Kisses goodbye for the day etc.

Maybe she found out she wouldn't get as much as she thought. Who knows?

[RR17]

In all honesty, I think she was mad that I would not move out for 90 so she can make up her mind. I pushed her to seek the D as I was mad and at that time felt more strongly about an A.

Is it stupid to think that the reality and finality of a D has settled in, that and the lower pressure sitch that I created by following the rules? That that is the cause of her change in attitude?

I know I feel different now that much has settled in.
In reading about boundaries, both here and elsewhere is that they must be stated.
What I want is to know what her temperature is. I want to ask her what are her current thoughts and feelings.

[RR17]

Theoden makes good suggestions. In your last post you said it was the not knowing that was really eating at you. I assume you mean not knowing if there is OM? If that's the case, then hire someone to find out. However, I doubt it will affect the D.

What is eating at me is not knowing her current state. The OM is an issue, but I am willing to put that on hold for now. I have seen her juggle the EA and try to appease me the last go round, and I don't see it like that now.

[doodler]

What is eating at me is not knowing her current state.

RR17,

Anecdotal evidence suggests that wayward wives go through a state change every 18 minutes, except on Tuesdays, when they go through a state change every 21.5 minutes. Knowing your wife's current state is an exercise in futility.

What you can do is decide how you want to live your life and get out and live life to the fullest. Your wife might decide she likes what you're doing with yourself and then maybe she'll decide to hitch a ride with you.

[RR17]

Well, the latest change has lasted a whole week.

[AnotherStander]

In all honesty, I think she was mad that I would not move out for 90 so she can make up her mind.

And good move on that by the way. Lots of LBS's get bullied into moving out, not only does that displace the LBS and give the WAS exactly what they want but ironically it also makes the LBS look weak and powerless to the WAS. They lose what little respect they may have had for them. If you hold your ground they may pitch a fit, but they will still respect you for it.

I pushed her to seek the D as I was mad and at that time felt more strongly about an A.

I guess you know now not to do that. Your job is to REMOVE ALL PRESSURE (assuming you don't want D). That means no R talks, no D talks, no "serious" talks at all really unless she initiates them.

Is it stupid to think that the reality and finality of a D has settled in, that and the lower pressure sitch that I created by following the rules? That that is the cause of her change in attitude?

Probably not, it's far too early in the sitch for her to be changing her mind. I mean anything is possible, but it would be very unusual.

In reading about boundaries, both here and elsewhere is that they must be stated.

I think you are still misunderstanding what boundaries are. Not to beat a dead horse, but your example of telling your W she is not allowed to pretend everything is OK, that is not a boundary because the reality is she IS allowed to pretend everything is OK. And a boundary isn't about telling someone what they can't do, it is about coming to a mutual agreement and telling them what the ramifications will be if they don't comply with the agreement. For example, your W shouts at you all the time. You finally sit down with her and ask her not to anymore and she agrees. But then a week later she's doing it again. So you set a boundary:

"Wife, when you scream at me it makes me extremely uncomfortable and it upsets the kids because they can overhear you from anywhere in the house. You've agreed not to, but you continue to do it. The next time you have an outburst I am going to take the kids and we will leave the house until you can get yourself under control."

This boundary is reasonable because no one should tolerate getting yelled at, it's a form of emotional abuse. It's enforceable because there are ramifications that have been stated, and they can be executed if the boundary is breached.

An example of a smaller boundary might be that you've agreed to do the dishes each night, but when it comes time you always make an excuse not to. So your W might tell you "H, you agreed to do the dishes but you never do. From now on when you don't do the dishes then the next day I won't be making dinner."

I hope that helps you understand it a little better. An added complexity in this is boundary setting gets more difficult after BD. The WAS considers the M over, so using your example where you want to set a boundary with your W that she needs to keep you informed of the D, what consequence can you set for that? You're going to leave her? File for D? That's not really a consequence to her, because that's what she wants anyway. When it comes to a WAS you can't really set an enforceable boundary regarding them talking to you or keeping you informed of anything.

What I want is to know what her temperature is. I want to ask her what are her current thoughts and feelings.

Temperature checking is not a good idea, but we all end up doing it at some point. Here's the thing about temperature checking- you are not going to hear what you want to hear. Here's why- if she changes her mind and wants the M back YOU WILL BE THE FIRST TO KNOW. So the very fact that you have to ask means that she is not there yet, and thus whatever answer she give you will NOT be the one you want. In fact it will most likely make you sad, upset and sorry you asked.

[TBSakaJ9]

I temp checked about 3 weeks ago and did not like the answer I received so I agree don't ask.

[RR17]

Thanks for your helpful reply.
I do understand boundaries to a better extent as defined by this group. I also know that several other sources have a little different take. Really doesn't matter, like you said WW/WAW are almost useless to set boundaries with.

But for all you boundaries fans, yes I told her 3 years ago, that if I caught her cheating again, it would be over. Told her in MC.

I guess you know now not to do that. Your job is to REMOVE ALL PRESSURE (assuming you don't want D). That means no R talks, no D talks, no "serious" talks at all really unless she initiates them.

Yes, this was before I became versed.

Quote:
Is it stupid to think that the reality and finality of a D has settled in, that and the lower pressure sitch that I created by following the rules? That that is the cause of her change in attitude?


Probably not, it's far too early in the sitch for her to be changing her mind. I mean anything is possible, but it would be very unusual.

It has become aware to me that my reason for feeling this way is become of some show of empathy. Last night she asked if I was Okay. Wow, that doesn't come easily from her. It sure didn't come when she was involved in the EA the last go-round.
This is a person that shoves down her own feelings, let alone take on someone else's. DR says believe what you see not what you hear.

Temperature checking is not a good idea, but we all end up doing it at some point. Here's the thing about temperature checking- you are not going to hear what you want to hear. Here's why- if she changes her mind and wants the M back YOU WILL BE THE FIRST TO KNOW. So the very fact that you have to ask means that she is not there yet, and thus whatever answer she give you will NOT be the one you want. In fact it will most likely make you sad, upset and sorry you asked.

I do feel comfort knowing that we all do it. I'm really okay hearing about anything, once in the right mind. I also don't take it at face value. Mixed signals are the torture when you are trying to be intentional with your actions. AKA DBing

I agree that in most cases once the W makes up her mind that she wants the M, that the H should be the first to know. Except with my W. Communication is the real problem here. IMHO. She can't express herself and I don't read minds.

Well I did tippy toe into that territory and she said she felt the same. Whatever that means, IDK.
I also asked her what are some things that she thought I needed to work on. After several minutes and searching, she said that I was standoffish and that sometimes I cussed too much.
I inquired about the standoffish and the best I could get was unapproachable. I'm sure this is in response to the fact that I have claimed that she didn't show affection.

[RR17]

So here is a puzzler for me. As of now I still don't know if W is WAW or WW. I have for many years french pressed coffee and brought it to her before she wakes. Should I continue? BTW, it's 6:30 and I already took it to her.

I struggle with becoming the best man I can and detaching.

[Maika]

I have for many years french pressed coffee and brought it to her before she wakes. Should I continue?

No. Stop doing things for her immediately that you always used to do.

[RR17]

For the most part, she is acting "as if" nothing has ever happened. We talked about D plans and she said she was not pursuing. Said she had to take a few days to digest. That she didn't plan to do any surprise filing.

She enjoys going to dinner even without the Ds and sharing her day's events.

I let her do most of the talking and we had sex twice this week. IDK

Some things are still odd. She is not a good actor and I don't know what to think. Personally, I would like to address the problems but that is difficult when you don't have R talks.

[RR17]

So last night we had a mini R talk. Her initiation. I let her do most all the talking. I validate. I told her I felt her moving closer recently and she said that I was seeing things. That it was always there and that I just never saw it.
I'm not buying it. She has been more respectful and has acted differently. Obviously, I have been paying closer attention, but I know there has been a change.

Here is where I need a decoder. She said that lately, she had been just trying to get along. That for some time now, that she feels so alone when we are together. So so terribly alone. I validate and pointed out that when she spoke that I had made a point some time back to give her my full attention. Doesn't matter. I asked her to help me understand. She repeated herself and tuned out.

WTH is this supposed to mean? Is it something I am supposed to act on?

So anyway. I still made coffee this morning but didn't deliver it. Figured it was a good segway to get back on detaching.

[RR17]

I guessing by a lack of response that I am reading too much into this.

It's all very confusing when you are in the midst of it.

I found more anecdotal evidence leaning toward an OM. After the initial panic, I've realized it is possible, but far from factual.

[Tread]

Sounds as if she just got mad at having to repeat herself. More of an issue on her part than yours. Just keep doing what you been doing. She initiated the R talk for a reason.

[RR17]

So as she moves closer should I ignore? Right now as I type she has sat on the sofa much closer to my chair, when she usually sits in a chair further away.

The book says monitor and adjust and this board says move along. This is where I get confused.

[25yearsmlc]

So as she moves closer should I ignore? Right now as I type she has sat on the sofa much closer to my chair, when she usually sits in a chair further away.

The book says monitor and adjust and this board says move along. This is where I get confused.

Just caught up.

Monitoring on a daily basis is not going to work well. It will make you nuts. Monitoring is something that requires consistency that cannot be measured in daily interactions. (Other than maybe something that backfires big time).

AND monitoring frequently is the opposite of Detachment, which is a crucial step. Detachment is a two fold goal - it's for helping the marital relationship improve as you gain back your self self confidence apart from your wife's reactions to you,

and it is for your sanity and peace of mind.

Are you doing any GAL? It's not something to overlook.

Hang in there

[Kylo]

The book does say monitor and adjust, but it seems like progress is being made so don't worry about adjustment until the methods don't work. Also "adjust" means adjust the DB principals, and the way I read it, DB isn't concerned about right and wrong, it is just concerned with what works.

I agree that these seem to be positive signs, but it seems kind of early for her to be truly coming out of the tunnel. Also, it is clear she isn't there yet; so what could you really do DB-wise? Nothing that I know of, so don't worry about it.

Be active not re-active. Be active on GAL and kicking butt, which is attractive. She needs to get further along before you change anything. Her signs seem positive and confusing at the same time: but it doesn't change what you should be doing.

[RR17]

Be active not re-active. Be active on GAL and kicking butt, which is attractive. She needs to get further along before you change anything. Her signs seem positive and confusing at the same time: but it doesn't change what you should be doing.

Be active not re-active. So true, yet so hard.
I think the book says the slightest change done consistently will be noticed. I have found this to be the case.

As for GAL, I've always kind of had my own thing. I'm self-employed (good and bad) and have flexibility in my schedule. Read a lot and play golf for fitness several times a week. I have cigar friends that I meet up with, etc.

One change that I have made is, I believe that I had fallen into a habit of complaining. In an effort to gain attention or respect I began b!tching and moaning more. I have stopped this. (Who wouldn't appreciate, right?)

I have re-started IC this next week. She knows as I didn't want it to be a surprise and secret. She can keep the secrets.

I believe the biggest thing that she may have noticed is the difference in my reaction this go-round.

[25yearsmlc]

it's true that small consistent changes are more credible than dramatic gestures.

The 180s are part of the DB approach b/c she thinks she knows you, she believes that you are a known quantity.

If you GAL in something New and different for you, that's of interest. If you repair things she wanted repaired or worked on long ago, that's of interest.

If you are a bit mysterious, that is of interest. After all, what if you waiting around for her were not a given?

What if she risked losing you and the marriage and home you two have built?

Most women I know, including those who had "Flings", did not want to trade in their family lives for an AP - when faced with the choice.

When not faced with having to choose, most went along having their cake.


Food for thought.

[RR17]

I figure half of what I'm doing is working. I think.
If I only knew which half, I could cut out the other half.

Sandi said somewhere else that the LBH usually initially suspects a MLC. As did I 4 years ago. I soon discovered a EA.

This time it is the opposite. 1st suspected A, now IDK but she did just lose a friend, trade the SUV for a mini cooper. And we have D leaving for college. may be MLC. Last time she started working out, not so much this time.

I've definitely increased the mystery. Both in my passive responses as well as my schedule.
I would be more likley to suspect cake eating had I not seen a return of empathy. She asks if I need anything from the store. Something I can't see her faking.
I guess I will continue until something changes.

[RR17]

So it's 4am on Saturday morning and here I am.

We went out for dinner with D14 and all is good. A little too good? IDK

I read these threads and my own post and the responses and I get the feeling that I'm making mistakes. Letting her back in too easy. For the most part, i had discontinued snooping. Minutes ago I was trying to get into her work laptop. She had told me the password last week and now it doesn't seem to work. IDK, could be I'm trying it wrong.

Could be I'm doing DB all wrong.

I'm just not spending thousands on a PI.

As I once again reread Sandi's threads and I am reminded "Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion"
And I need to read it all again. "Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion" these things all existed and I need to remember that. It's so easy to forget when W's behavior improves. I know they don't just go away.

I need to read it, yet I'm tired of reading all this stuff.

I hate that my feelings, my well-being is so attached to her minute by minute behavior.

I know GAL. It's not so easy when you feel you've had AL all along.
Do 180's, well if I knew what to work on I would. I have eliminated 99% of all complaining. I have maintained an upbeat attitude around her. I've been exploring meditation to ease anxiety.

Other than that I don't know what to do.

[25yearsmlc]

So it's 4am on Saturday morning and here I am.

We went out for dinner with D14 and all is good. A little too good? IDK


Yikes, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Enjoy the moments in life that are enjoyable. Not just for the marriage, but for your d14 and for yourself.

Over analyzing is like internal snooping. And There are negative projections going on here...


I read these threads and my own post and the responses and I get the feeling that I'm making mistakes. Letting her back in too easy. For the most part, i had discontinued snooping. Minutes ago I was trying to get into her work laptop. She had told me the password last week and now it doesn't seem to work. IDK, could be I'm trying it wrong.


Some of this^^ is very contradictory. You say you let her back in too easily, (which you cannot now retract)

then say you discontinued snooping and then you snooped, or tried to. I think you are all over the place and not helping anyone.

Settle down. This is not a sprint; it's a marathon. Let that sink in.

Could be I'm doing DB all wrong.

I'm just not spending thousands on a PI.



Are your finances safe? If so, time will reveal the truth & you don't have to be in a rush to know all.

Unless you believe you cannot possibly stay m if she has had an A of any type,

then hire one and be done with it. I am not passing judgement. I am not suggesting a course of action. I'm just saying you'll make yourself crazy

if there is a deal breaking piece of information out there, that you won't go find.



As I once again reread Sandi's threads and I am reminded "Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion"
And I need to read it all again. "Resentment, Disrespect, and Rebellion" these things all existed and I need to remember that. It's so easy to forget when W's behavior improves. I know they don't just go away.

I need to read it, yet I'm tired of reading all this stuff.

Step back then. Reading about this over and over, can paralyze us, and ironically keep us from real GAL and detachment.


I hate that my feelings, my well-being is so attached to her minute by minute behavior.


This^^^ underlying problem permeates all of your choices/behaviors/emotions. Can you talk to an IC about it?

I know GAL. It's not so easy when you feel you've had AL all along.


I think it's easier to GAL for those who have one, than it is for those who never had one. Expand your interests and do NEW things that you have not contemplated before. Clearly, the GAL you have thus far are not getting you anywhere near detachment.

That's not an insult, just an observation.


Do 180's, well if I knew what to work on I would. I have eliminated 99% of all complaining.


Was complaining a symptom of negativity in your outlook? There seems to be a bit of a negative streak in many of your posts. I can't tell if that is reactive or typical.

There are some great TED Talk videos on youtube, about positive psychology and they are empirically based. Not just theories. Sean Achor and Amy Cuddy both have some out there and they are well worth watching.


Also, the 180s are not just doing the opposite of flawed behaviors, but also introducing NEW activities and interests for YOU. It makes you more interestED in the world other than your wife and it makes you more interestING as a partner.

Surely there is a class you once pondered taking, a seminar to attend, a language or instrument you would like to master, a place to visit, a hobby to take up, coaching kids on a team, playing on a team, volunteering somewhere, taking up a sport or activity with your d14, learning a new skill, joining an organization with people - not solo things...


I have maintained an upbeat attitude around her. I've been exploring meditation to ease anxiety.

Other than that I don't know what to do.

There are several free phone apps you can use to meditate and stop the obsessing.

My favorite is "Insight Timer", and another called "Pacifica", "10% happier" and "Calm".

I listen to insight timer every night at bed time and sometimes in the morning at 4am if I wake up with anxious emotions. They are all Pretty darn fast acting.

Great introduction to meditation, which I had never done before.

Good luck

[RR17]

Funny you should mention. I have been listening to meditation youtube videos. Thanks for the app recommendations.

As for Negativity? This whole board is negative, lol

As for an A, I don't know what I will do. I guess it depends. I have been through it before and a line has to be drawn. I do believe that it will reveal it's self if it is the case.

I was Distancing and saw results. I have softened and you're right, I'm second guessing myself. It's a rollercoaster.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=RR17]Funny you should mention. I have been listening to meditation youtube videos. Thanks for the app recommendations.

As for Negativity? This whole board is negative, lol


People who come & post to this site are only here b/c a negative event happened in their lives. So the contented marriage partners are self screened OUT and not here.

But if they post here AND decide to work on themselves - they will always benefit. Their lives will improve by virtue of conscious effort, like being awake versus being asleep. That's a powerfully positive message.

-
I was Distancing and saw results. I have softened and you're right, I'm second guessing myself. It's a rollercoaster.

Perhaps the best way to survive a roller coaster ride that makes you sick, is to get off it.

See, Detachment is both a means to an end AND an end in itself.

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

RR

maybe this excerpt from the script of Swingers, will help. -------


And what if I don't want to give up on
her?

ROB
You don't call.

MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I
wanted to give up on her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So I don't call either way.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So what's the difference?

ROB
The only difference between giving up and
not giving up is if you take her back
when she wants to come back. See, you
can't do anything to make her want to
come back. You can only do things to
make her not want to come back.

MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget
about her or pretend to forget about her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
Well that [censored].

ROB
It [censored].

MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision.
So I could, like, let's say, forget about
her and when she comes back make like I
just pretended to forget about her.

ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.

MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?

ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care,
not call - whatever, and then,
eventually, you really won't care.

MIKE
Unless she comes back first.

ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they
don't come back until you really don't
care anymore.

MIKE
There's the rub.

ROB
There's the rub.

[Kylo]

You're getting impatient, which I completely understand. I am too. This a long process. It can take weeks for small improvements. My confidant in all this asks me everyday what is going on, which is nice, but he hasn't read the book. he doesn't fully understand how long this will take.

The other benefit to GAL, beyond just making yourself a better person/more desirable; is it takes your mind off the waiting. Do other things to pass the time, since you can't "bull through", as Micehelle says, this process.

[RR17]

Well, after a revelation today it has dawned on me that I am not early in this process. First EA/IA started in June 2013. Discovered in Aug. 2013.
So in actuality, WW and or WAW has been going on for some time. Too much never got fixed.

Early on I made all the natural mistakes. Pursuing, begging, brooding. I know what doesn't work.

It wasn't all a mistake as I started GAL back then. I had to to stay happyish.
It took up instrumentS, more golf and read a stack of books. I poured myself into my work, in a healthy way.

Update: We had another R talk. She kind of started and I took the ball. I said in a very matter of fact way:

She needs to learn to not blame me for all of the past
She needs to regain respect
We are not ready for MC until she has decided (she agreed)
"I can't" is really "I won't"
Although I don't want a D, I will not stand in her way.
Regardless, we will be connected for a long time and if she wants to regain my trust she is going to have to do some work.
It is not my fault that I am suspicious.
I start IC Tuesday.

She listened and agreed to several items.
Then I noticed during Sat. something was bothering her that seemed to be progressing. Finally, after much prodding, she offered up that I had ruined her whole day with this discussion.
I stated that it needed to be said and how she felt was on her.
She slept on the couch and I felt no remorse. (any emotion from her feels like progress).

She skipped church and me and D14 went. She watched on line and today's message couldn't have been more on mark. "Guardrails"

We can home and she was fine we all went to breakfast. (dang we eat out a lot).

I took off after breakfast and watched golf with friends until dinner.

[RR17]

RR

maybe this excerpt from the script of Swingers, will help. -------


And what if I don't want to give up on
her?

ROB
You don't call.

MIKE
But you said I shouldn't call if I
wanted to give up on her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So I don't call either way.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
So what's the difference?

ROB
The only difference between giving up and
not giving up is if you take her back
when she wants to come back. See, you
can't do anything to make her want to
come back. You can only do things to
make her not want to come back.

MIKE
So the only difference is if I forget
about her or pretend to forget about her.

ROB
Right.

MIKE
Well that [censored].

ROB
It [censored].

MIKE
So it's almost a retroactive decision.
So I could, like, let's say, forget about
her and when she comes back make like I
just pretended to forget about her.

ROB
Right...or more likely the opposite.

MIKE
Right... Wait, what do you mean?

ROB
I mean first you'll pretend not to care,
not call - whatever, and then,
eventually, you really won't care.

MIKE
Unless she comes back first.

ROB
Ah, see, that's the thing. Somehow they
don't come back until you really don't
care anymore.

MIKE
There's the rub.

ROB
There's the rub.

25yearsmic, I get it. It is a reversal of the Pursuer/ Distancer dynamic.

That is twice you have shared this same movie quote in my thread. lol

[RR17]

So today's drama.

After hearing W say that she that she just needs to "get out of here". I initially responded rationally and went to walk 9 holes where it all hit me.

Unresponsibly, I later texted her that I was tired of it all. That she had taken my financials to an hourly attorney and that that was not "just gathering info". (She claims that she was no pursuing D and doing nothing until further notice)
This idiotic attorney mistakenly called me claiming a wrong number.
I was tired of being blamed for all of it.
Tired of her rewriting our history
Tired of waiting for the next BD
Tired of hearing "I can't" when it really was "I won't"
Tired of losing sleep
Blah, blah blah
That I was now taking control and prepare for a shitstorm.

I know it was wrong but it all hit me and I was pissed.
She was obviously shaken.

[RR17]

In essence, I have enacted the Beyond Last Resort Technique.

Wish me luck.

[RR17]

Started IC today.

[25yearsmlc]

RR

Ugh, I knew I had posted the Swingers script somewhere, but not where. So let's pretend it was so important; that it just bore repeating...

So today's drama.

After hearing W say that she that she just needs to "get out of here". I initially responded rationally and went to walk 9 holes where it all hit me.

Unresponsibly, I later texted her that I was tired of it all.


well - you seem to realize that it wasn't something that helped advance your cause. But, we all get off track now & then. Try to learn from it and move forward. Figure out a way to contain yourself even when you get frustrated. A whole lot of this is going to be frustrating. That won't get smoother for you unless you smoothen it out.

That she had taken my financials to an hourly attorney and that that was not "just gathering info". (She claims that she was no pursuing D and doing nothing until further notice)

RR, this^^ is her self protection and intel gathering. You can and should do the same. I mean, you are forewarned.

I'm not clear on why you confronted her about seeing a L. You can protect yourself now, but I would be far quieter about it. No need to announce your legal position or share your feelings about it. You are on notice.
I hope you have retained legal counsel

but if you have not, is it because you fear seeking out information increases the likelihood of a divorce?


This idiotic attorney mistakenly called me claiming a wrong number.

Wow, I'm a L, and this^^ is a first. I'm sorry you had that experience. Forgive me but it's a bit hilarious to me.


I was tired of being blamed for all of it.
Tired of her rewriting our history
Tired of waiting for the next BD
Tired of hearing "I can't" when it really was "I won't"
Tired of losing sleep
Blah, blah blah
That I was now taking control and prepare for a shitstorm.


Just to clarify, you are saying that confronting her re the L was about you taking (back) control?

What if you just sought legal counsel of your own?

I'm not pro divorce. But you don't have to retain a lawyer just because you talk to one, and even if you did retain one, you need Not file for divorce.

In California about 1/3 of divorces filed, do not get finalized.

Just saying.




I know it was wrong but it all hit me and I was pissed.
She was obviously shaken.

Well, dang, we all backslide. (Really, we all do.) Detachment is pretty mandatory.


Dust yourself off and move forward. I think The more you challenge her choices, the more you force her to defend them. And You don't want to corner her.

Being in control of yourself projects more power and self confidence, and you'll feel more self confidence too.

RR, Are you doing any new GAL? I'm asking b/c you seem to be struggling with detachment, which makes your path even harder. I know you have your regular activities but perhaps you can consider that new GAL activities are by their very nature, more absorbing. And sometimes we really need the distraction.

Hang in there.

[RR17]

Thanks, 25year,

I'm not sure if I back slide or BDed myself. I summarized the text conversation but basically told her I had reached my tipping point and I was filing. I know that based on the beyond LRT, I have to be willing to follow through.

Right now we haven't spoken for almost 48 hours. She knows I am pissed and is silent but civil.

I went to IC today to work on emotional dependency and have a controlled place to discuss this crap.

GAL is a stumper for me. I have too much life going on already. I just find reasons to not be around.

I have taken a hard look at improving myself and am prepared to figure out where I need to put in the work.

Thanks for your reply. I feel I may have run so posters off here. Oh well, it messy business.

[Treasur]

I'm sorry, RRI7, that you're in this messy business. Everyone has their tipping point and the mess and confusion can feel overwhelming sometimes can't it?

Glad you have an IC and some place to vent and think out loud (other than here!)

The idea of BDing ourselves is funny...I bet you were more logical than a lot of WAS! But it's quite common I think to get to the point where all you want is the chaos and pain to stop, and LBS becomes WAS.

At the same time - and this may not be how you feel or think at all - it's ok to change your mind or find a different approach. Feelings can be very powerful and the need to escape. Give yourself time. Do what you think you must but don't feel you have to be pushed by the sitch to run at things. You get to choose for yourself what to do, and a D is not an easy process with a spouse behaving like this.

Thinking of you x

[RR17]

Thank you Treasur,

I feel in control for a change and that is a much better feeling. Detaching and all that important stuff is a much easier task from this position, at least for me.
When she would respond in kind to the release of pressure, I would see change and it made it very confusing.

I'm in no hurry to do anything and no immediate plans to do anything other than keep my space.

[RR17]

Some struggling thoughts.

Although the silent treatment in going on 72 hrs. now, I am reflecting on some conflicting techniques here on this board.

Become the best you. A Lighthouse etc.
yet don't dash around cleaning like a gay boyfriend.
Keep conversations short, answer and don't expand.
Don't serve her coffee like your old self used to.

So as to not be misunderstood, I am challenging my understanding, not the methods.

I write this as I sit on my patio looking at her dying flowers that I was once told not to water. But, like a M if you don't water them they both eventually die.

[Treasur]

I'm sorry, RR17. This is a tough hard place to be, isn't it?

I think one of the confusing balances of DB is something 25 posted somewhere else. Life has just smacked you in the chops. You can choose to use it as fuel to become your best happiest self. That might save your M or maybe not, but it will definitely save you either way. The alternative is to focus just on your W/M and that's a gamble. I think we all struggle with seeing how DBing for us is different than DBing for our M, especially at the early stages.

[RR17]

I understand what you are saying. Work on your self and either way you are better off.
Also, it keeps you from pursuing.

[RR17]

So this morning early. I get up to make coffee and go walk 9 holes. During the night the dog with a diarrhea mix left a nice surprise in the hall outside the kitchen.
I contemplated cleaning it up, as I have done in the past, or leave it for the W.
Well, school has started and she came down to make 14D lunch.

We have not spoken in 72hrs.

She sees it and I stated that the dog must be sick. Without as much as a grumble, she went to get a glove and dustpan to clean it up. This is way outside of her usual MO. I offered a suggestion on how to tackle the chore and she capitulated. Wow, not a peep.

I went up and dressed for golf and didn't return until she had left for work.

Not reading too much into this, but she may be demonstrating her new independent ways. IDK

[sandi2]

Some struggling thoughts.

I am reflecting on some conflicting techniques here on this board.

Become the best you. A Lighthouse etc.
yet don't dash around cleaning like a gay boyfriend.
Keep conversations short, answer and don't expand.
Don't serve her coffee like your old self used to.

So as to not be misunderstood, I am challenging my understanding, not the methods.

Why do you think it's contradictive?

[RR17]

Sandi,

Some of the detaching/180 rules seem to make me a worse H.

Maybe that's the point. Autonomy

Should I have cleaned up the poop or give her a taste of what it will be like if I'm gone?

[Holding]

Should I have cleaned up the poop or give her a taste of what it will be like if I'm gone?

You know, a couple of weeks ago our dog crapped all over the living room. It really stunk. This is normally something I clean up. I mean, I ALWAYS cleaned up the poop! Instead, I covered it with some old towels and left it, then I went to work. W apparently left it alone and went to work. So the kids (who are old enough to stay at home alone) had to sit in the house and smell it all day.

It was still there when I got home from work. I went out and met a friend. When I got back from that later in the evening, W had finally cleaned it up. That gave me some satisfaction.

She will get the dogs after D is final. So I figure I was totally justified in showing her what life will be like when she doesn't have a H around to do stuff for her.

[RR17]

Should I have cleaned up the poop or give her a taste of what it will be like if I'm gone?

You know, a couple of weeks ago our dog crapped all over the living room. It really stunk. This is normally something I clean up. I mean, I ALWAYS cleaned up the poop! Instead, I covered it with some old towels and left it, then I went to work. W apparently left it alone and went to work. So the kids (who are old enough to stay at home alone) had to sit in the house and smell it all day.

It was still there when I got home from work. I went out and met a friend. When I got back from that later in the evening, W had finally cleaned it up. That gave me some satisfaction.

She will get the dogs after D is final. So I figure I was totally justified in showing her what life will be like when she doesn't have a H around to do stuff for her.

My exact thought process.

[RR17]

So, as W and I are still sharing the same bed, last night she tells me that tomorrow she has an out of town business trip and needs to get up at 5am.
(Sound familiar and suspicious?)

Although I am an early riser, this is still before I usually get up and she asks if she should sleep in another room. Emotionless I say it doesn't matter.

Due to the early day, she showers that night and I start to process. This stinking feeling starts to settle in. Once out of the shower I state that since I don't really trust where she is going, I decided I would prefer she sleep elsewhere.
Non Defensively, she says "would you like to see the email regarding the trip?" I say "not really". She gives a few more details and I ask if she prefers to sleep in our bed. She says "yes". I say fine then.

I then asked if she resented my questioning her story. She said not at all.
This morning she provided a print out of where she was going.

I know I try to read too much out of these interactions. It's what I do.

[SJW]

Hi RR

I think you were perfectly justified in requesting her to sleep in another room. If she doesn't want to be in M why would she want to share a bed with you anyway?

SJ

[sandi2]

Sandi,

Some of the detaching/180 rules seem to make me a worse H.

Maybe that's the point. Autonomy

Should I have cleaned up the poop or give her a taste of what it will be like if I'm gone?

Forget the poop for a minute, b/c that's like straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.

You still seem to be confused about "rules", techniques, etc. So...........maybe you need to simplify and lay aside some of that terminology for a few days. What do you think?

Another area I see that may be confusing, is the part about improving yourself. My observation is that you are seeing it as meaning to improve as a husband.......only. That is why the 37 rules, 180's, detaching, etc. seem contradictive to you. You are frustrated b/c you see these techniques getting you farther away from being a better H. Am I right in this observation?

When we tell you to look inside yourself and dig deep to really evaluate how you've measured up since getting M.........of course, it includes being a H, a father, and whatever other roles you have..........but most importantly......as a man.

The bomb drop is usually a wake up call for a lot of men, and they want to spring into action to make up for the previous years. However, the WW has moved way past the point of wanting the MR to improve. That's what the H doesn't get. She is not saying she wants to give the MR another chance. She no longer cares, and that harsh reality is very difficult for the H to accept. If the WW gives him the ILYBINILWY speech, she is telling him she is done............but, he hears her saying something else. He hears, "I want a good MR". So, he sets about doing all the things he thinks will make her happy and will restore her loving feelings. So he jumps into cleaning the house, running her errands, being more passive. catering to her, accommodating her, smothering her with his presence, etc. But these things are not what he needs to do with a WW, so it pushes her further away......and a lot faster. Why? B/c those actions do not cause her to feel desire for him as a man......and certainly not as her H.

The problem with his new resolve is that he's not grasping the reality of the situation. He is not separating himself as a man from his role as H. When that happens, the lines become blurred and his view of the situation seems to be out of focus and it's as if he has forgotten how to think and operate with his innate abilities that come with being a man. Therefore, he is left confused and frustrated with the DB process b/c his focus is on appeasing his WW. When he reads about DBing, he feels that following that advice will make him a worse H. Isn't DBing about saving the M? Yes, but one must start from the foundation first, which means saving the individual that has come to the board to seek help.

Somewhere along the way in his M, the H has lost an important characteristic that distinguishes his manhood. It has pretty much been buried for years, and by the time he hears the bomb drop, his identity as the male leader and head of his family.......has almost faded away. It has taken the back seat, succumbing to his nice guy syndrome, and now the results are staring him in the face. And b/c of that^^^^^^^^^, he has misconceived ideas of what it will take to make his W happy and save his M. So, with his NGS in tact, he thinks if he can show his W how willingly he does nice things for her........it will get the MR back on track. But, it doesn't work. It doesn't work b/c he must improve himself as a man before he can be a good H. That is the order to follow. That's why we say to focus on yourself and become the very best version of "you" as possible. It has nothing to do with turning cartwheels to impress the WW. The focus is not making her happy by doing x, y, & z. In fact, I will go as far to say the objective should not be about making her happy. He cannot make her happy or cause her to feel admiration and desire for him as a man........until she can respect him.

His first objective is to find his b@lls, improve himself as a man, and redefine his position in the home as the leader. When he rediscovers his manhood, it should take care of a lot of blurred lines in his role of H.........if he doesn't allow fear and bullying to overtake him. That's not to say he won't have to improve some skills in the area of being a good H, but if he starts by improving himself as a man first.........he will start with the foundation and work upward in tackling issues. Once the W respects him, it will take care of most of the problems of her waywardness..........but nothing will work until she feels that respect for him as a man and as her H.

There can be a lot more said on this subject, but like I've mentioned previously, it can't all be said in one post.

[Tread]

Sandi,

Thanks for breaking that down. Now it all makes sense. Because there have been times where bettering myself seemed to contradict what I felt my W wanted from me. But it's all about getting the respect first.

[leahsue]

Wow, Sandi, another great post. You truly have a way of explaining things in what could otherwise be a very confusing dialogue. Thankful for you.

[RR17]

Another area I see that may be confusing, is the part about improving yourself. My observation is that you are seeing it as meaning to improve as a husband.......only. That is why the 37 rules, 180's, detaching, etc. seem contradictive to you. You are frustrated b/c you see these techniques getting you farther away from being a better H. Am I right in this observation?

Yes, somewhat. I do understand that the cartwheels and such don't cut the mustard.

The bomb drop is usually a wake up call for a lot of men, and they want to spring into action to make up for the previous years. However, the WW has moved way past the point of wanting the MR to improve. That's what the H doesn't get. She is not saying she wants to give the MR another chance.

I did all that in Aug. 2013. I had a wake-up revelation and made changes in my relationships with the whole family. The changes stuck but as you said it didn't win the W.

Somewhere along the way in his M, the H has lost an important characteristic that distinguishes his manhood. It has pretty much been buried for years, and by the time he hears the bomb drop, his identity as the male leader and head of his family.......has almost faded away. It has taken the back seat, succumbing to his nice guy syndrome, and now the results are staring him in the face. And b/c of that

This is what I struggle with. I can't figure out what that might be. I don't think I suffer from NGS.

[RR17]

His first objective is to find his b@lls, improve himself as a man, and redefine his position in the home as the leader. When he rediscovers his manhood, it should take care of a lot of blurred lines in his role of H.........if he doesn't allow fear and bullying to overtake him.

I can say with confidence that that has not been the case this BD go-round. I didn't beg and bargain. I was angry, not panicked or visually scared. Not like last time.

I think you have helped me better understand. I'm not sure I know what to do.

Thanks Sandi!

[sandi2]

What I have seen work is when the H dumps the WW. Whether in his attitude, behavior, or legally. I use the word "dump" for a reason. It is much more effective when he dumps her, rather than him trying to survive what she does to him. You know how it affected you when you got the bomb drop. Well, that describes how she feels to see you actually dumping her. But it must be legit, b/c pretense doesn't work very well. Not only for him to dump her.......but to show no interest in her at all, and him living it up.

[25yearsmlc]

RR

you mentioned that you reacted differently in 2013. But you also said you worked on yourself and felt you had improved as a man and h.

is that still how you see it?


Did she say, back then, that she wanted to reconcile and repair the m?

Is she different now, than she was back then?


If you could go back in time to that ordeal, (just for 5 minutes!), would you do anything differently?

[RR17]

RR

you mentioned that you reacted differently in 2013. But you also said you worked on yourself and felt you had improved as a man and h.

is that still how you see it?

Oh definitely, my industry took a big hit in the recession. I had my confidence, dignity as well as earning ability stripped away. I had become a grumpy, complainer that didn't feel respected. Hard on everyone and hurting inside. It had gone on for so long that I didn't even notice. A real miserable F***.
A week into the 2013 BD I had an epiphany. The discovery of Ws EA shook me so hard that, as Sandi has described, I took inventory of my being and saw things that I would have never realized had that not happened. I journaled about it and started to make the changes. As hard as it is to say, I am thankful for that part of that.
Now understand that although I had read a stack of books, IC, MC the whole lot, I had not discovered DB. That is why when I read MWD's words and Sandi's posting this time, it was an instant buy-in. I didn't need a beginners mind, I had tried and knew what doesn't work.


Did she say, back then, that she wanted to reconcile and repair the m?

Is she different now, than she was back then?

Well, she did go to MC and claimed to have read some of the material on helping your S heal from an A. She went to IC/MC but some what reluctantly and twice more I discovered that she wasn't ready and had not ended contact with OM.

Is she different now? Some of it seems the same, some different. At the moment I tend to discount the idea of another OM. One suspicious clue and I could change.
I realize that an OM is really just a symptom of the bigger problem, but it is an important factor if DB is to progress. She is facing her oldest 18D going off to college. She is a lot more independent this time because of changes made from last time.
Oh, yea, this time she is not dealing with a devastated basket case of a H.

At current, since my blow-up earlier this week, she is in a better place, especially since we resumed talking. Even before we broke the silence, I noticed a change in respect. Going Dark for a few days has had positive results.

If you could go back in time to that ordeal, (just for 5 minutes!), would you do anything differently?

Absolutely, If I had been aware of DBing I would have done the whole thing differently. As Sandi has said, the sooner one can implement the rules/180 etc. the sooner one can expect to see results. The easier one can hopefully shock them out of the fog.

"Pursuing" is a big one. Much like other facets that have gotten their own thread, this is a subject that I feel needs to be expanded on for other's to better understand. A cheat sheet of sorts. We LBH can pursue and not even realize it. It IMHO, is so much more than not following around and texting. It is easy to pursue and not realize you are doing it.
The very "human nature" responses that us LBS tend to exhibit make it worse. I can only wonder if I could have seen the value in DB without living the last go-round.

[RR17]

What I have seen work is when the H dumps the WW. Whether in his attitude, behavior, or legally. I use the word "dump" for a reason. It is much more effective when he dumps her, rather than him trying to survive what she does to him. You know how it affected you when you got the bomb drop. Well, that describes how she feels to see you actually dumping her. But it must be legit, b/c pretense doesn't work very well. Not only for him to dump her.......but to show no interest in her at all, and him living it up.

Well, that is my week in a nutshell. Yes I have seen very positive results since dumping her this week. Followed by Going Dark, so to speak.
She seemed happy when the lines of conversation opened up again.

Sooooo, where do I go from here? I restored some dominance and saw good results.
Friendly conversation has been the result.

Do I maintain some distance yet continue the new old best friend stuff?

[sandi2]

Sooooo, where do I go from here? I restored some dominance and saw good results.
Friendly conversation has been the result.

Do I maintain some distance yet continue the new old best friend stuff?

What you don't need to do is get comfortable in thinking this "dumping" business only takes one time to get the lasting desired results from her.

When you consider how you would conduct yourself with someone you washed your hands of............would you realy show interest in them? Would you really want to be their best friend?

IMHO, pursuing friendship with her at this time........will place you in a vulnerable position. Why? B/c you are showing interest in her! The WW should think she has been dumped by the guy she didn't want. He no longer is interested in her as a woman, a wife, or a friend. She's lost him. He has taken the initiative to drop her, and move forward in a life apart from her.

To understand how this works, takes you understanding the mindset of the WW. She will not want you until she believes she has lost you. She cannot have you b/c you are no longer interested in what she has to offer you. Currently, she is confident that she could turn on her charm, wiggle her a$$, and she'd being leading you around by the nose. Frankly, that's not much challenge for her. The challenge comes when it takes much more than her feminine charms to captivate your interest again. I mean, why would a man want to go through that hell again? When you can see through her temp checks and manipulation.......and you turn her down......then you are making progress. When you can say, "Thanks, but no thanks", she starts to believe she is losing you.

So, what do I recommend next? Pull back, and don't be so available this week. Let her pursue you, but don't forget what you are suppose to be doing.........which is dumping her. When you "dump" a person, you don't gradually ease away from them. You DUMP them out of your life. You immediately and completely disengage with anything that involves them. And, don't use the kids as a bridge to get next to her.

Don't use this as a tactic just to get her to warm up to you......she'll see through it, and it won't serve you well. The goal is to put the burden and action of pursuit on your W. When she sees her little tricks won't work, and she sees you are no longer interested in getting her back......and especially when she sees you living happily without her........there is a much greater chance of her being interested in getting back into your life. And, don't worry.......she'll let you know.

The best way I know how to describe it is to be hard to get. Don't be a pushover. Don't make it too easy for her to pull you back. Do you understand what I mean?

[RR17]

Thanks for your reply

So, what do I recommend next? Pull back, and don't be so available this week. Let her pursue you, but don't forget what you are suppose to be doing.........which is dumping her. When you "dump" a person, you don't gradually ease away from them. You DUMP them out of your life. You immediately and completely disengage with anything that involves them. And, don't use the kids as a bridge to get next to her.

Don't use this as a tactic just to get her to warm up to you......she'll see through it, and it won't serve you well. The goal is to put the burden and action of pursuit on your W. When she sees her little tricks won't work, and she sees you are no longer interested in getting her back......and especially when she sees you living happily without her........there is a much greater chance of her being interested in getting back into your life. And, don't worry.......she'll let you know.

Sooo, that what I feel I did most all of last week. I was gone before she woke and didn't return until bedtime. Until the dog crap when she got up early. I know it had an effect as she mentioned that it didn't seem we were even friends these last several days. I got some attention. I'm not sure it was the loss or fix but I'm going to call it a win.

Sandi, I do understand and value your words. You know these creatures better than any book or Dr. that has written a book and I have read a boat load.
What I don't trust is my own judgment.
My W is not a good actor. Not a phony charmer. And when I see a change I think she is turning the corner.

Confession: I tried to initiate sex twice this weekend. Both over text to avoid confrontation. She said no she "couldn't"

I asked her to please stop confusing "can't" with won't. She said she would try and that it would take some practice.
This is a big leap for this self-centered, defiant, rebellious W.
She doesn't hide her feeling well. She doesn't share them but she is not a faker either.
This morning she moved closer and well I am weak. Sex is how Hs temp check.
We spent the better part of the day together and ate alone without kids.

Last night we had a heart felt R talk and by that I mean I listened and validated. I also told her that she had been self-centered, defiant, rebellious.
Like you have said timing is everything and she stopped and contemplated my words. Didn't get mad or retaliate. She asked how so and I gave her examples of each. She seemed to listen and reflect.
She said she had been under a lot and cried. I encouraged her to let it all go. I comforted her. This was probably why I got laid this morning. I also told her why I suspected the A and she swears there is nothing going on. I caught her quickly stashing her phone Saturday as I walked up. She acknowledged doing it and said it was stupid and she shouldn't have done it and she understood why I would see it as suspicious. She was sorry and understood how it must have looked.
Now I understand how some Ws may use this as an elaborate cover-up, but it is not her MO.
I told her later that I tended to believe her. She was thankful and seemed genuinely pleased. Not like pleased he took the lie but like it mattered to her that I knew that it was not nefarious.

So that leaves this week. I am prepared to slip back into cold going dark if this is moving too fast. I am not so desperate for things to be fixed that I skip doing it the right way.

You say don't worry she will let you know. Well, I'm not sure. At dinner tonight I was tempted say that I was surprised that she wanted to eat alone with me based on the awful things that she said in recent past. I didn't as I felt I was fishing for a R talk and why push it.

I need to keep a healthy perspective.
I am prepared to do whatever is best. Should I ask what's up with this change?

Going dark for 4 days doesn't seem long enough, but I do think a loss was felt. I did pull it off without seeming merely manipulative.

Thought?

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for your reply

So, what do I recommend next? Pull back, and don't be so available this week. Let her pursue you, but don't forget what you are suppose to be doing.........which is dumping her. When you "dump" a person, you don't gradually ease away from them. You DUMP them out of your life. You immediately and completely disengage with anything that involves them. And, don't use the kids as a bridge to get next to her.

Don't use this as a tactic just to get her to warm up to you......she'll see through it, and it won't serve you well. The goal is to put the burden and action of pursuit on your W. When she sees her little tricks won't work, and she sees you are no longer interested in getting her back......and especially when she sees you living happily without her........there is a much greater chance of her being interested in getting back into your life. And, don't worry.......she'll let you know.

Sooo, that what I feel I did most all of last week. I was gone before she woke and didn't return until bedtime. Until the dog crap when she got up early.


RR, I have a few 2 x 4's for you but I know you can take it!

"most of last week" is a blink.

The math of this is approach is that

"consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Then you can respond accordingly. Not before. Your w does not yet have a "new you" to respond to. Not enough time or consistency from you.


I know it had an effect as she mentioned that it didn't seem we were even friends these last several days. I got some attention. I'm not sure it was the loss or fix but I'm going to call it a win.


Sorry to seem like a wet blanket, but again, this^^ is so short lived and so "not enough" that you are really setting yourself up for disappointment.

Your timeline must be elongated exponentially, or any "results" you see will be puny or temporary.

You need to do a behavior for 90 days before monitoring for results, or do at least 30. Seriously.


What I don't trust is my own judgment.


Don't be too hard on yourself, b/c this^^ is true for most of us, or we would not have felt blindsided by our spouse's decision.

Unfortunately In the next sentence below, you apply the very judgement you have good reason to doubt.

My W is not a good actor. Not a phony charmer. And when I see a change I think she is turning the corner.


you are trusting your own questionable judgement here^^^ and you are seeing what you hope is true. Not necessarily what is true.

A "change" of any sort in that brief a time is too short to even notice.

Try not to "notice" anything short of a BIG CLEAR behavior on her part. If the time comes, you will not have to guess or mind read.

Let that^^ sink in.


Confession: I tried to initiate sex twice this weekend. Both over text to avoid confrontation. She said no she "couldn't"

Asking to be intimate is serious pursuit. Period.

And doing it by text is not to avoid confrontation, but to avoid facing rejection in person.

It comes across as pursuit done with so much fear attached, that it could not be done in person.

Unless it's consensual flirting by text, an attempt for intimacy made in the least intimate format, is not going to go well imo.


I asked her to please stop confusing "can't" with won't. She said she would try and that it would take some practice.

more pursuit ^^ with a dose of semantics.

She rejected your request and then you seemed to argue about it. It's not a position you want to be in. The more you challenge her choices - the more you force her to defend them, and the more you corner her.

I know this is hard but it's not complex. In this scenario You are setting yourself up for rejection, getting rejected, and then arguing about the use of the term"won't" instead of "can't."

I don't see the point of that.

If she said she "won't" be intimate, as opposed to "cannot" be intimate, how would that make it better?
I'm asking because it's not clear to me what difference that makes.


This is a big leap for this self-centered, defiant, rebellious W.


I'm confused. What is the "big leap" you're referring to? Is it that she said she'd try to use the term "won't" instead of "can't"?


She doesn't hide her feeling well. She doesn't share them but she is not a faker either.
This morning she moved closer and well I am weak. Sex is how Hs temp check.
We spent the better part of the day together and ate alone without kids.

Last night we had a heart felt R talk and by that I mean I listened and validated. I also told her that she had been self-centered, defiant, rebellious.


I don't see how labeling her behavior and telling her these^^ negative things is validating. And I don't see how it gets you closer to your goal.

Also, What we say here on this site, is usually not something to say to the WAS.
Plus the wording strikes me as a shaming tactic that will push her farther away.


Like you have said timing is everything and she stopped and contemplated my words. Didn't get mad or retaliate. She asked how so and I gave her examples of each. She seemed to listen and reflect.
She said she had been under a lot and cried. I encouraged her to let it all go. I comforted her. This was probably why I got laid this morning.


You said sex is how you temperature check. Which is unfortunate, b/c It may not be hard for her to go alone with it. And you may misinterpret or project your feelings onto her actions. I assume she knows your method of temperature checking, correct?

I also told her why I suspected the A and she swears there is nothing going on. I caught her quickly stashing her phone Saturday as I walked up. She acknowledged doing it and said it was stupid and she shouldn't have done it and she understood why I would see it as suspicious. She was sorry and understood how it must have looked.
Now I understand how some Ws may use this as an elaborate cover-up, but it is not her MO.

what is her MO? So, What do you think She wants from you as a husband?

I told her later that I tended to believe her. She was thankful and seemed genuinely pleased. Not like pleased he took the lie but like it mattered to her that I knew that it was not nefarious.


Yikes, tons more mind reading here^^.

If & When she is ready to commit, you will not need to guess and mind read. You won't always be the marriage police.

Unless there is clarity and commitment from her, why would you agree to a reconciliation anyhow?

Do you get my point?

I'm echoing what Sandi said in her last post to you. And the Swingers script is very much along the "dump" the WAS theme.

It's about real detachment and sometimes you have to fake it till you make it.


So that leaves this week. I am prepared to slip back into cold going dark if this is moving too fast. I am not so desperate for things to be fixed that I skip doing it the right way.


what do you mean "moving too fast"? Why would you pursue again, at this point?

Can you get some short term goals for yourself? Specific short term goals?

You say don't worry she will let you know. Well, I'm not sure.

If she is not committed to the m yet, what is being decided right now?


At dinner tonight I was tempted say that I was surprised that she wanted to eat alone with me based on the awful things that she said in recent past. I didn't as I felt I was fishing for a R talk and why push it.


It IS 100% R talk and it is complete pursuit. You are asking her to reassure you.

Maybe one short term goal is to let her initiate a reassuring comment or behavior without any push from you.

You may need to get the proverbial "STFU smoothie" and drink it when you get the urge to have another one of these pursuit R talks


I need to keep a healthy perspective.
I am prepared to do whatever is best.

Should I ask what's up with this change?

No.

It's another request for reassurance from her, which is more pursuit from you.


Going dark for 4 days doesn't seem long enough,

it's not nearly long enough. No question.

You need to put the microscope away and get some space. How are your GAL -"don't obsess" detachment efforts going?

Hang in there.

[RR17]

This quote is getting too long and I need to break it down.

"most of last week" is a blink.

The math of this is approach is that

"consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.

Then you can respond accordingly. Not before. Your w does not yet have a "new you" to respond to. Not enough time or consistency from you.

The only new me she saw was the me that was prepared to dump her a$$. There was as close to NC as possible while living in the same house. This may not have been long enough but it was very different.

Sorry to seem like a wet blanket, but again, this^^ is so short lived and so "not enough" that you are really setting yourself up for disappointment.

Your timeline must be elongated exponentially, or any "results" you see will be puny or temporary.

You need to do a behavior for 90 days before monitoring for results, or do at least 30. Seriously.

I realize this and it was the point of the whole post. I think I may have done a poor job of communicating some of these points, but the main point is that I know it was a short time and that monitor and adjust is where things get tricky. If she moves closer and I continue to go dark, it will have a very different result than if I validate. See what I mean.
I went dark if only for a few days. It had a profound effect. It did.

you are trusting your own questionable judgement here^^^ and you are seeing what you hope is true. Not necessarily what is true.

A "change" of any sort in that brief a time is too short to even notice.

Try not to "notice" anything short of a BIG CLEAR behavior on her part. If the time comes, you will not have to guess or mind read.

Let that^^ sink in.

This is why I said I don't trust my own judgment. No that I don't know the caricature of this W. I do. I also know she is not acting as herself 100%

Asking to be intimate is serious pursuit. Period.

And doing it by text is not to avoid confrontation, but to avoid facing rejection in person.

It comes across as pursuit done with so much fear attached, that it could not be done in person.

Unless it's consensual flirting by text, an attempt for intimacy made in the least intimate format, is not going to go well imo.

Well, consensual flirting is pursuing IMO. How do you know that it is consensual without first pursuing?

I know that texting was avoiding rejection to a point. "No" in a text is also rejection. What it did do is avoid any chance of an argument. That alone was my reason. I don't care about being rejected. I just don't want an argument. She said "I can't" I said "Okay". No more pursuit. No chance of a fight.

more pursuit ^^ with a dose of semantics.

She rejected your request and then you seemed to argue about it. It's not a position you want to be in. The more you challenge her choices - the more you force her to defend them, and the more you corner her.

Here I disagree. It is way more than semantic.

"Can't" is denying any personal ownership and External Locus.
"I won't" say's I refuse to. Internal Locus
Big difference IMO
It is not arguing. She didn't get defensive. The time seemed right and I said it. It had very little to do with my attempted initiation. More to do with owning one's own decisions.

[RR17]

25yearsmlc

Thanks and I will continue to address your post soon when I get a chance. We are having this eclipse thing today and people are going nuts.

[RR17]

This is a big leap for this self-centered, defiant, rebellious W.


I'm confused. What is the "big leap" you're referring to? Is it that she said she'd try to use the term "won't" instead of "can't"?

It is a big leap for her stubborn a$$ to say that she will try and that demonstrate a desire to meet my needs.
Huge shift.

[RR17]

You said sex is how you temperature check. Which is unfortunate, b/c It may not be hard for her to go alone with it. And you may misinterpret or project your feelings onto her actions. I assume she knows your method of temperature checking, correct?

I believe all men temp check this way. Does she know it. I have no idea.
Could she go along with sex to deceive? Sure, but I doubt that it wouldn't be obvious. WW/WAW are very focused on being true to themselves, IMO. This is one area that she would struggle with a ruse in spite of being true to herself.

With my W? Possible, not probable.

[RR17]

what do you mean "moving too fast"? Why would you pursue again, at this point?

Can you get some short term goals for yourself? Specific short term goals?

You say don't worry she will let you know. Well, I'm not sure.

If she is not committed to the m yet, what is being decided right now?

Okay, here is where I believe left room for confusion.
By "going too fast" I mean lowering my guard. I went from, I'm taking over and suing you cheating butt and it's going to be ugly to NC for 4 days to whatever bliss we had this weekend.
She has pursued me all weekend long.

I hope this better explains thing.

[RR17]

Now I understand how some Ws may use this as an elaborate cover-up, but it is not her MO.

what is her MO? So, What do you think She wants from you as a husband?

By MO I mean her way of handling getting caught doing something she is not supposed to be doing. She would deny and dismiss. That is her MO.

What do I think She wants from me as a husband? I have no idea. That would require either mind reading or perusing.
I will say we were friend before lovers and I think going Dark, if for only a few days, she felt a sense of losing me as a friend. She saw that we would not be buddies if not married. Yes, this is a theory.

[RR17]

Even when she proposed the S, she said we would have weekly dinner and dates and blah blah blah. But no sex. lol

But when I went dark, she realized that once gone, I might really be gone.

[RR17]

Sandi said in her Reflections thread:

It is the attitude or state of mind he has to have, when dealing with a WW situation. I don't mean he necessarily runs out and files for a D. However, he should not be afraid to do it. I would suggest that before he filed, that he separate from her, to show her he means business. Even if he just left to go somewhere else for a few days, she won't know what he's planning to do........which is good, she needs to worry. Every single WW that I have seen come and go on this board has said that it took her seeing that her H was done with her, before she woke up. She has to believe she could lose him. When he dropped her, instead of clinging to her and pleading that she won't leave. That's when it hits her. As long as he is clinging to her, she knows she has him and isn't losing him.

This is what I believe happened last week.

[sandi2]

Yes I have seen very positive results since dumping her this week. Followed by Going Dark, so to speak.

Well, I am thoroughly confused. Do you call yourself "dumping her", or not?

Confession: I tried to initiate sex twice this weekend. Both over text to avoid confrontation. She said no she "couldn't"

I just assumed that by dumping her you would not be trying to bed her! Seriously, how can you expect her to get the message she is losing you when you try to to initiate sex twice in one weekend? Wow, talk about pursuing! Do you understand what a woman means when she responds to her H sexual advances by saying, "I just can't"?

We spent the better part of the day together and ate alone without kids.

Sorry, but if you want to appear as if you are dumping her, then this is not a picture of a guy who is dumping his wayward W.

Last night we had a heart felt R talk and by that I mean I listened and validated. I also told her that she had been self-centered, defiant, rebellious.

She said she had been under a lot and cried. I encouraged her to let it all go. I comforted her. This was probably why I got laid this morning.

Is getting laid all you think about? And, I'm not trying to be funny! Was that your goal, just to get laid? Needless to say, it doesn't work very well when you are dumping her.

Never use sex as your way of temp checking your WW. In fact, don't temp check her at all. That is you pursuing or being manipulative. Deciding how she responds to you initiating sex does not give you an honest evaluation. Many a W has had sex when she could have not cared less.........or had an ulterior motive.

So that leaves this week. I am prepared to slip back into cold going dark if this is moving too fast. I am not so desperate for things to be fixed that I skip doing it the right way

What's the point, if you're just going to initiate sex in a few days? Seriously, you either act as if you are dumping her.......or else forget it. Just one more time of repeating this past weekend, and you might as well throw down your cards.

This past weekend confirmed to your WW that you are still very much interested in keeping her. If you don't want to act as if you are dumping her, then just tell me and I won't waste time talking about it. To me, it sounds as if you are still searching for a magic bullet........and there isn't one. You have to decide what you are going to do, and be consistent. Understand?

Btw, you don't have to do this, just b/c I suggested it.

[Tread]

RR17,

I agree with Sandi stop asking for sex. It will blow up in your face and will be used against you the day she won't have sex with you. W will tell you that your just mad at her, because she won't have sex with you.

[RR17]

Okay, time for a recap:

Monday-I exploded in a series of text that I was tired of all of this. I was filing and it was going to be ugly. That any recent A would be exposed and hidden money found. Essentially dumping her. She was surprised and shaken. I then went Dark.
Tuesday-Left before she awoke and returned at bedtime. No text, no nothing
Wednesday-Same, gone, a ghost except for sleeping in the same bed. Not a word.
Thursday-same, a ghost, except for right at bedtime when there were no words.
Friday-was the dog poop scenario. She was up early and 1st words since Mon morning. Later she asked about dinner and had a new attitude.
Saturday-morning I'm up early and I texted about sex. The whole "I can't/won't conversation was had. New W throughout the day. She expressed that she didn't think we were even friends during the last week.

Sunday-she moved closer and sex. We had the whole R conversation where she told how she had been under a lot lately (D18 leaving for college, a friend from work leaving, ex H of long time friend dying) and I listened and validated. A visual breakdown and with that, the timing seemed right and I calmly told her all the shaming and labeling stuff. She listened and appeared to contemplate. No denial or retaliation. Again, not a typical reaction.

Last night before sleep, I asked her if she had a good weekend. She said, "yes,....how about you?"
I replied, "I did, but I wondered if I had lowered my defenses too soon." No reply.
My purpose was to keep my options open.

I believe that after our little talk that she thinks we are back on some right track or just the threat is gone. IDK.

So initiating sex was after four days of Dark. No that wasn't my intention for easing up. I really felt she was shaken and I noticed a real change. Not the usual, let me shove my feeling down and play a part again, change.

Sunday I told her that for now, I wasn't initiating any D, but the minute that I saw any signs of any kind of A, it was on. (does this count as a boundary?) I defined cheating as any secret friends or hidden conversations etc. She vehemently denies any OM.

This past weekend confirmed to your WW that you are still very much interested in keeping her. If you don't want to act as if you are dumping her, then just tell me and I won't waste time talking about it. To me, it sounds as if you are still searching for a magic bullet........and there isn't one. You have to decide what you are going to do, and be consistent. Understand?

True and that is the reason for my question about letting her in too soon. I really think I got her attention and I think she believed the seriousness. I was serious.

I want to set the record straight and lay down some terms if this is the beginning of a new situation. I want to do it right.

[sandi2]

Monday-I exploded in a series of text that I was tired of all of this. I was filing and it was going to be ugly. That any recent A would be exposed and hidden money found. Essentially dumping her. She was surprised and shaken. I then went Dark.

You threatened her, of course she was shaken. You go all week without speaking, and then you text her about having sex. Not sure how you see that as going dark......or dumping her.

Last night before sleep, I asked her if she had a good weekend. She said, "yes,....how about you?"
I replied, "I did, but I wondered if I had lowered my defenses too soon." No reply.

Actually, it looks as if you are shooting yourself in the foot. You said you wanted to keep your options open. What does that mean, and how is it connected to what you said to her?

I don't see anything from her that indicates she is wanting back in the M. You are making statements to her that you should not be saying.

I want to set the record straight and lay down some terms if this is the beginning of a new situation. I want to do it right.

I think you are reading too much into last weekend. I suggest that you don't say anymore right now. Before you start laying down terms..........you have to recognize what truly is a new beginning.

[RR17]

You threatened her, of course she was shaken. You go all week without speaking, and then you text her about having sex. Not sure how you see that as going dark......or dumping her. confused

Well, it didn't happen just like that. The ice was broken over the dog mess. We ate and spent Saturday shopping. Then I texted about sex.
As for the threat or dump or BD or whatever label seems appropriate, shaken is not her typical response. Angry or shut down is her MO. NC is not my typical reaction either.

I don't see anything from her that indicates she is wanting back in the M. You are making statements to her that you should not be saying.

She is a sweet new wife now. Ever since Friday and her talk on Sat. about how she had been going through a lot etc., she acts as if nothing ever happened.

I don't want her to glaze over this past month's developments and write it off like it was no big deal. This is what she appears to have planned.

I think you are reading too much into last weekend. I suggest that you don't say anymore right now. Before you start laying down terms..........you have to recognize what truly is a new beginning.

Except for reading too much into last weekend, I agree. I know when my W is changing even if I don't communicate it well, here. She felt a potential loss. Was it enough? IDK
All I know is I'm not ready to glaze over this month's events.

[25yearsmlc]

just wanted to pipe in that I did Not mean for you to pursue your w for intimacy at all.

My comment about texting her for intimacy - was not to suggest asking her in person or over the phone at this time; it was not to pursue it at all for now

IMO< generally, unless there is mutual flirting (happening in a healthy r) texting about it to me

comes from a position wherein the asker won't take the risk of rejection in person, which is not a position of confidence.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I support pretty much everything Sandi is saying.

The only caveat is that "dumping" your wife is not to be done rudely or in a curt manner. Nothing like that.

It's about you knowing You are going to be fine because

you have become a man only a fool would leave.

Make sense?

[25yearsmlc]

the time it takes to make authentic changes is much more than a week or 4 days.
Even if you think "it worked" it's such a short time.


HER time to process HER feelings and whether she believes you really are behaving in a new genuine healthier way,

is also going to take more time.

Like Sandi said, there is no magic bullet or sentence with the right words said in the correct order, that will solve all this.

(Believe me, I looked & experimented with the best wording, for over a year. I'm a L and am a bit of a wordsmith. And if I were in the Supreme Court, I'd have won. But I could not reach my h...).

Also, saying things to her like you regret taking her back or letting her back in too soon (which is not dumping her) is not productive or necessary.

To me it sounds indecisive and potentially even punitive.

Sorry if I read this wrong - and I may have, but it sounds to me as if you are (maybe subconsciously?)

using sex as a tool. If she refuses or doesn't feel close enough to you,

are you tempted to threaten her with filing - under the guise of an OM vibe?

I'm asking.

[RR17]

25yearsmlc
All the pursuing was my own doing. I know what you are saying about texting to avoid rejection. If you knew me better you would know that I do not avoid rejection. The dynamic is some R are different than others and when I did so I felt it was the "best practice". It allows her to think before responding and not experience the pressure of a face to face rejection, in the even that she didn't want to.

I support most everything that Sandis says. Sometimes I don't think I communicate the sitch in a way that she understands either the turn of events or the nuances of a conversation. My fault. It seems so clear when I write it but is sometimes misunderstood.

As for the "man only a fool would leave." I don't understand.
We all often don't see the forest for the trees. At least not before it's too late,

Perhaps I need to have this man described to me?


I do struggle separating this from "the H only a fool would leave"


Personally, I am prepared for whatever may come. I would like to fix this R, but if there turns out to be OM or she is just unwilling. I will survive. I always do.

[RR17]

the time it takes to make authentic changes is much more than a week or 4 days.
Even if you think "it worked" it's such a short time.


HER time to process HER feelings and whether she believes you really are behaving in a new genuine healthier way,

is also going to take more time.

Like Sandi said, there is no magic bullet or sentence with the right words said in the correct order, that will solve all this.

(Believe me, I looked & experimented with the best wording, for over a year. I'm a L and am a bit of a wordsmith. And if I were in the Supreme Court, I'd have won. But I could not reach my h...).

Also, saying things to her like you regret taking her back or letting her back in too soon (which is not dumping her) is not productive or necessary.

To me it sounds indecisive and potentially even punitive.

Sorry if I read this wrong - and I may have, but it sounds to me as if you are (maybe subconsciously?)

using sex as a tool. If she refuses or doesn't feel close enough to you,

are you tempted to threaten her with filing - under the guise of an OM vibe?

I'm asking.

Only I never said "... things to her like you regret taking her back or letting her back in too soon (which is not dumping her) is not productive or necessary."

I said I may have let my guard down too soon.

All this talk about a silver bullet...where does it come from? I don't remember saying it.
Shoot, I just try stuff and see if it works. Just like it says in the book.

When I see a dramatic change, I bring it here and bounce it off you folks. I never expected any quick fix.

As for using sex as a tool? Call it what you will. A thermometer or whatever, I'm not sure where you got this idea that that would determine my next move.

Either I am doing a terrible job of explaining my actions or I am a real piece of crap.

[sandi2]

The only caveat is that "dumping" your wife is not to be done rudely or in a curt manner. Nothing like that.

I completely agree.

All this talk about a silver bullet...where does it come from? I don't remember saying it.
Shoot, I just try stuff and see if it works. Just like it says in the book.

It comes from years of observation. It doesn't take long to see a LBH trying, whatever he picks up from the board, to snap his W out of her fog. I understand that the reason you are here is to save your M. I understand you are anxious to try anything, if it works in bringing your W back from insanity. Now, something else usually goes along with the H trying various things. He doesn't give it sufficient time........and it either complicates the sitch worse......or he shoots himself in the foot and basically scr@ws up something that could have really worked well in saving his M.

I know a newcomer has a ton of information coming at him. Many newcomers get confused about some of the terms, such as "detach, GAL, boundaries, 180's, go dark, drop the rope", etc. The most common thing I see in newcomer H is that he doesn't take sufficient time in really studying some of these thing. Even the page Cadet sends with his initial post is often skipped over. IMHO, newcomers need to just absorb the information, before they jump into something with both feet........b/c chances are, they don't quite understand it completely. I'll use an example that many newcomers do: setting a boundary before they even understand the principle. We've seen people back themselves into a corner and not know how to get out of it. See what I mean?

So, back to you. I saw you using words like distant/pursuit, going dark, dumping, experiencing potential loss, etc. If I understand correctly, this was all within a seven day period? And now, you are saying you have a new, sweet wife. You say you know her best, (and of course, you do). I am trying to figure out where you are in your sitch. I would like to help, and I would like to be able to protect you from an inevitable let down.

I said I may have let my guard down too soon.

I think most everything you said to her over that week (starting with your threat, and ending with the above quote), was to get a reaction from her. This is another pitfall for many newcomers. Sometimes it can be effective, but other times it can go against you. Take the quote above, for instance. It sounds controlling, IMHO, and I think you wanted to see how she would react. Would she assure you that you had nothing to worry about, or would she cry and plead with you, would she beg for your forgiveness? Well, she did not say any of those things.........so now, you are left a little in the dark.

When I see a dramatic change, I bring it here and bounce it off you folks. I never expected any quick fix.

Okay, that's good to bring it here, b/c we can tell you what it means..........if we are familiar with seeing the same scenario played out in other sitches.

Either I am doing a terrible job of explaining my actions or I am a real piece of crap.

No, you are not a POC. I, too, feel that I often do a terrible job of communication. I speak very candidly........and with quite a bit of passion........and some people read it as me being harsh. What bothers me the most, however, is for someone to misunderstand what I'm trying to explain. So with that in mind..........maybe we can take a deep breath and start from here and go forward. Please ask questions if you do not thoroughly understand something from me, b/c my fingers can't type as fast as my thoughts......so I could leave out details.

So, you have seen a "dramatic change" in your W, and you feel it is due to the things that were said last weekend. Is that correct? This is where I will start with my next post. I want you to be prepared, in case she pulls back. Don't react to it.

[RR17]

So, back to you. I saw you using words like distant/pursuit, going dark, dumping, experiencing potential loss, etc. If I understand correctly, this was all within a seven day period? And now, you are saying you have a new, sweet wife. You say you know her best, (and of course, you do). I am trying to figure out where you are in your sitch. I would like to help, and I would like to be able to protect you from an inevitable let down.

Yes within a 7 day period.
I do understand that expecting lasting results is not a quick process. Like I said before. I try stuff and I report the results. If the results happen quickly that is beyond my control.
I too am trying to figure out where I/we are in my sitch. I won't pretend to know. I only share what I see and given my history (20+ years) with this person, what my perceptions are.
I do appreciate your help, Sandi.

I think most everything you said to her over that week (starting with your threat, and ending with the above quote), was to get a reaction from her. This is another pitfall for many newcomers. Sometimes it can be effective, but other times it can go against you. Take the quote above, for instance. It sounds controlling, IMHO, and I think you wanted to see how she would react. Would she assure you that you had nothing to worry about, or would she cry and plead with you, would she beg for your forgiveness? Well, she did not say any of those things.........so now, you are left a little in the dark.

Not true. The threat and all that came after was from a place of anger and was not intended to manipulate. I realize it was a side effect.
As for the quote, well, my wife doesn't ever plead with me, would she beg for your forgiveness? Not going to happen. Never would expect that.
I said it because I did feel she was glazing over the last month's events and that I did, in fact, feel I had lowered my defenses.

....I, too, feel that I often do a terrible job of communication. I speak very candidly........and with quite a bit of passion........and some people read it as me being harsh. What bothers me the most, however, is for someone to misunderstand what I'm trying to explain. So with that in mind..........maybe we can take a deep breath and start from here and go forward. Please ask questions if you do not thoroughly understand something from me, b/c my fingers can't type as fast as my thoughts......so I could leave out details.

I've heard the same thing all my life. People also come to me when they want truthful advice.

[RR17]

Okay, now that we got that all out..

So, you have seen a "dramatic change" in your W, and you feel it is due to the things that were said last weekend. Is that correct? This is where I will start with my next post. I want you to be prepared, in case she pulls back. Don't react to it.

Okay, I will not react. I think that she was jolted or whatever when I went dark. IDK if this past weekend was her making sure that I am not done or what. Or if she has explained her way through the last month's behavior. Perhaps there was some OM and she has decided to change direction and believes she can just pick up where she left off with me.
She has maintained this new attitude into today.

If she pulls back I will continue to GAL and not react. Sound good?

[sandi2]

So, how have things gone the past few days?

[RR17]

Same sweet new wifey for a week now.
I have not pursued. I've kept some distance and done my own things. Kept my stories short, validated hers.
In fact, she told me some story today and when I started talking she started to turn away. I stopped her and told her. She said, oh, sorry. No defensiveness.

Personally, I am trying to live in the moment. The whole thing seems suspicious and I often wonder when it will end. I plan to avoid the next fight or confrontation. Easier said than done.

I would like to know what is really going on in her head and heart.

For now, I will maintain.

[RR17]

I am ready for some transparency.
I honestly believe she intends to just pretend like nothing ever happened. Yet I am not to start any R talk.

[25yearsmlc]

stay steady on the course. Don't expect her to bring it up anytime soon

either b/c she does not feel safe with you (and doesn't want this thrown in her face every time there is a fight or to have it held over her head the rest of her life OR b/c she doesn't want to discuss it endlessly)

AND OR because she doesn't want to be transparent or do the work, yet. And she may never want to, but that's for a later time (unless you become the WAS, which is not uncommon.)

But this is such a short time period of relative stability, why not build on that and THEN worry about the rest?

I'm not saying to sweep it under the rug AT ALL.

I'm just saying not to rock the boat for now so she can see what m to you can be like in a new m, so she can want it to work.

Your expectations are - to me - too high too soon.

[25yearsmlc]

PS

after an affair, the surprising things I have seen are 1) when a LBSer becomes the WAS

or 2) when the WAS returns but then decides that the LBS will never let go of their transgression or let them live it down (you might be surprised how common it is for spouses to throw the As in the spouse's face b/c the LBS did not really forgive it)

and then the WAS leaves again, for good.

You have to navigate this carefully.

Your wife wanted a divorce only one month ago, right? And this whole thing is less than 90 days long?

Here's the thing. If you do not believe YOU can get past this ever, then end it now.

Dig deep to decide this^^ and go for it. I would pass no judgement on that choice.

But if you are really interested in riding this out - then you need to prepare for a much longer time period for resolution and restoration. Riding it out takes longer than you expect.

A lot longer.


Hang in there

[RR17]

But this is such a short time period of relative stability, why not build on that and THEN worry about the rest?

I'm not saying to sweep it under the rug AT ALL.

I'm just saying not to rock the boat for now so she can see what m to you can be like in a new m, so she can want it to work.

Your expectations are - to me - too high too soon.

What are my expectations?
An explanation?
Not sweeping it under the rug?

AND OR because she doesn't want to be transparent or do the work, yet. And she may never want to, but that's for a later time (unless you become the WAS, which is not uncommon.)

This is exactly what I expect is going on.

What is a reasonable amount of time?

[RR17]

I'm just saying not to rock the boat for now so she can see what m to you can be like in a new m, so she can want it to work.

Well, as I see it takes two to make it work. Not just me not rocking the boat. Many of the adjustments that I have made, that DB has recommended (and I agree with), are not sustainable for an indefinite amount of time.

In order for her to see how wonderful our M could be, I'm going to have to have some needs met.
Oh, for the time being, I can play along but the necessary changes needed are not limited to me.
I sometimes get the feeling you elude to this and I'm trying to understand.
Of course, I am the only person I have control to change.

Communication is the key here. Unless I'm missing something?

Even if I were to decide to not "stick it out", it would require some communication from the W.

[25yearsmlc]

Most or all of your questions hinge on what stage you are in.

Please recap what your wife and you have actually said you each want now.

I don't know if you are reconciled, because if you are, then you need to piece. Which is harder than you think.

But if either of you is on the fence about reconciling, that's different.

As for your expectations, I think yours are expecting more clarity than is possible now, and your observations about your wife's behavior are about you reading into things too soon.

Monitoring for results when it's only a short term behavior is not really a "result" yet.
Several of us have told you this but you tend to dismiss or deflect our feedback on this. You tell us we misunderstand you or that we don't know you or your wife - which is a given. We only know what you write and how you react and whatever our own experiences are here. I hope you can take in what we write rather than trying to "correct" us.

(That ^^tendency might be worth exploring, btw.)

Another thing that struck me was that you seem to believe if your w is warm or looks content, that she must be pretending it's all fine. As if you were not hurt.

But that implies that she has to behave in some sort of openly pained, or supplicating way, or ashamed manner to show you that she knows you were hurt.

It's understandable that we want reassurance from our partners that we won't be hurt like this again. It's incumbent upon us to express how that can be shown.

Again, so much depends on what you each want. What has been stated?

[RR17]

Most or all of your questions hinge on what stage you are in.

I don't know what stage we are in. That would require a R talk which I am not pursuing.

Please recap what your wife and you have actually said you each want now.

The only thing said by each is that neither is pursuing filing right now.

Several of us have told you this but you tend to dismiss or deflect our feedback on this. You tell us we misunderstand you or that we don't know you or your wife - which is a given. We only know what you write and how you react and whatever our own experiences are here. I hope you can take in what we write rather than trying to "correct" us.

(That ^^tendency might be worth exploring, btw.)

I believe I have only corrected when I believe that the understanding of the turn of events was not accurate. Not the advice.

Sorry if you feel your advice has been fought.

[Cadet]

Please start a new thread you are over 100 posts


http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758333#Post2758333