Advice appreciated

[Tobias]

The MC session was interesting.

- MC said that while I clearly am making progress that I still operate from the rescuer mode (not false) and that I need to focus more on my needs (not false and I have been better at it but I frame a lot of what I have learned in connection with W.)
- MC said I need IC since I mention that while I am being better at patience and controlling impulses that she can help me with that
- Last week MC said she dislikes putting a time stamp on things but near the end said that while cost may be a factor that she thinks we need two more months of MC. (my W. pointed this out in the car that it was odd.. I replied that she may be doing it for a multitude of reasons but essentially to tell us to not expect a quick fix but also that she did say she has hope for us...which I felt was an odd comment as well for a MC to make)

One thing I have noticed, W is less enthusiastic during the sessions than at home...she validates (nods, verbal agreement) things I say and points to positive things that happened..but at home she is much more at ease and warm in that. There is a lot of reasons why this might be but I have realized that perhaps this is why I continue to doubt her sincerity which seems to be there but then she talks herself into seeing obstacles. HOWEVER, we are getting along better and we are working on things on our own. And the obstacles my W points out are things that are real.

So the trip tomorrow. I am trying to shut off the unhealthy thought that all she will do is have wild adventures with OM (who she hasn't seen for weeks now). But she may have already stopped talking to him. She may not even want to see him because she wants to not do something she knows that would hurt me. But that is ultimately the doubt I have: she is not the woman I married but in some ways in recent weeks she has shown more of those sides of herself. And she IS terrified of the financial reality of living alone. But if that is what is keeping her here why does she STILL want to interact with me, why does she still follow the tools and resources provided in the MC? I.e., why does she do more than the absolute minimum she can get away with? And when I start asking those questions I recognize I am over analyzing and driving myself nuts so I remain calm.

I feel good about going on the trip. I am not terrified. Yet I know this will be a test for us both.

And like we keep saying: this is a marathon. Essentially we are learning things that should have been fostered from the start.

There is progress but there is also doubt. I am trying to remind myself of what I type to others on here: take it day by day. Small steps.

[Tobias]

So the trip went alright. I had a great time and our MC encouraged us to have a communication plan which we ended up not deciding on but my W was the one calling me and trying to find moments where we would talk on the phone.

Could she have been hanging out with OM? Sure. Could she have been doing this to fool me? Sure. But when I left I knew she was in pain and wasn't feeling well and so when she ended up staying home on Saturday instead of go out with her coworkers I didn't think she was seeing him. In fact, she tried to communicate with me a few times throughout the night.

When I came back she had said how she missed me. Her actions are getting warmer and warmer towards me. I do have the urge at times to ask if she went NC as it really seems that way. But I know we still have things to work on. So I assume she will tell me that. But the positive interactions keep occurring. When there is a challenge or problem one of us recognizes it and stops it or addresses it. To me all of that is healthy.

On the trip I saw someone bring their new GF and I recognized little things as to what I was doing in the past (ignore her, walk away/ahead, not waiting for her) that made me project and say later to my friends how he might lose her if he isn't careful (turns out she had been dropping some signals to another friend). So I do think I am realizing more and more how I wasn't the perfect H or even in many ways an appropriate one. In turn it seems W has appreciated my growth and is now more and more working back to fully recommitting.

At this point I would like for her to say those words but it doesn't even really matter to me. We are having a good time and the more we do things together and not just act like good friends the better it seems to me. Like I told MC: if she is faking keeping the peace just to bide her time than that is her loss. But if that is the case I am learning skills as to how to work together, I am learning how to recognize when I need to listen rather than try to fix her problems, I am learning how to just have a good time rather than worry about little details that may be relevant but shouldn't be the first question. She sees more and more a side of me she hadn't seen or trusted that it was there.

She has been spending a few moments in the MBR but (this is dumb) her allergies act up in that room..we haven't had a moment to get the carpet some deep cleaning (probably dust and cat hair is intertwined in there)

There has been more talk about doing things together. Not necessarily overly romantic but I think we both recognize that we kind of skipped the fun parts: the dating, the developing a sound friendship. We sort of jumped straight into a business arrangement. We both also changed over the years so now we are just rediscovering who we are and how we fit together.

As to where we are? I don't know. But I don't think we are necessarily heading for a divorce as things have gotten a lot better. Does that mean we will be back in love? I think that's too soon, we both still have things to work on. But do I think she is giving it an effort? I would say she is doing that.

Looking forward to the next MC session on Wed evening (and then we both have IC on Sat).

I fully realize that there might a major set back right around the corner.

[Tobias]

That major setback WAS around the corner but we have to see how much of a setback it was.

My W is really upset about things at work. (So much that the MC picked up on it and in her IC apparently discussed how trauma bonding is what my W needs to avoid). She also isn't feeling well. So when she gets snappy I call her out on it but then she gets upset and says she is not angry. It went further and she said "this is why I want a divorce" and "I can barely tolerate you".

I think what may have triggered things was that our 7 year wedding anniversary is coming up on August 4th and I asked her how she wanted to approach that day. And she said you keep talking about wanting a new marriage so why would I want to celebrate the day we fought?

A few days prior she had suggested going to Asheville, NC that weekend. So that confused me since she clearly was thinking about doing something.

We need a new blender and we got a relatively expensive one so I suggested we could use that. But that is something I suggested in the past that something we needed for the home which was a relatively big purchase would be what could be applied. So that was dumb on my part.

Later in the car ride to work she said we both said things we didn't mean and that exhaustion and stress played a role but it did reinforce my doubt that she HAS BEEN faking it. And she thanked me for getting her to work.

So like I have been saying... things are going well but it's not a complete "I want to make things work" and comments like the one this morning would in the past have been reasons why I would let it escalate. So I am dismissing those as her true feelings BUT I am also not going to ignore it completely.

[Gordie]

She gets snappy and you call her out on it?

That's not working. Stop doing that.

[Tobias]

You're right. It's just that sometimes hearing complaints about work gets overwhelming. Our MC talked about a temp gauge and not giving our power away to others by being that affected and so I just wanted to say hey good morning and talk about something more pleasant.

It was a major issue for us in the past. I felt like a therapist hearing her complain about everything and everyone. But she really does let it affect her mood the rest of the day. And that affects the way we interact. And when we are right in a very fragile state I just wish she would take some ownership of how much that affects how she interacts with me. But somehow when she is frustrated from work it starts to lead to comments about things I do wrong (and more so things from the past).

But as I wrote in earlier posts: a lot of the time lately we have been interacting very pleasantly and been doing a lot of things together.

[Gordie]

It seems like w likes it when you listen...do more of that...no unsolicited opinions or trying to fix her problems...just listen. If you find your mind wandering or getting bored tell her that you need a 5 minute bathroom break...and re focus and listen some more.

[Tobias]

The thing is I wasn't even offering opinions.

I will see how the evening goes. One sign of progress is how quick we both recognize something is about to escalate (or in this morning did escalate) and we sort of go back to a neutral spot.

[Tobias]

On a different note, I am so glad we are seeing a counselor. And that W has IC (I will start mine on Saturday to deal with...hahahahaa impatience) but I know I shouldn't be her therapist but I often feel like I am forced into that role by her.

But the counselor asking her about her work and bringing up trauma buddies might be a slow but steady progress on that. I just don't think she should let it affect herself so much. I hear it on skype, text or facebook messenger from her, in the car ride home, and then at home...in the morning she focuses on it. I have been validating her feelings and keeping suggestions out of it. But her unhappiness to be in Florida mixed with her thoughts about work really affect her mood. Imagine how she then feels when she sees me or has to think about our MR and whatever problems we have!

In many ways what I really need help with is better reading the situation while also doing my 180s. So for example, one issue was she felt I wasn't interested in sex (I felt she wasn't interested ironically). Lately, I have been expressing that more. Sometimes she responds positively but sometimes she is tired or in pain or not in the mood (which is fine) but if that goes on for a few days AND there is a lot of stress about things that need to happen (at work for W or chores in the home) I too often don't stop and think to recognize that she IS stressed and may be anxious and if she isn't feeling well she doesn't need me to be right there in her face so to speak. But the challenge is too that she often asks me to rub her feet or ankles and usually she then initiates further intimacy from that. If she didn't ask me to do that I would be sitting in a different room or doing something else.

[Tobias]

Had a good evening and morning with W. We talked a bit further as to what happened and while reflecting on this before going to bed I came to the realization that not everything W. does has to be a reflection of how she feels about me. I knew that already. But I also realized that after a few days of not much coming from W. that I attempt to dismiss that conclusion.

But and here is the other big moment that I think several of you have pointed out, my W. probably pointed it out and for sure the MC: before she can fully want to recommit and work on US she has to first work on herself. Just like I have work left to do. In many ways I knew that. I just hadn't internalized it nor did I accept its true meaning.

My W. feels like she is running out of spoons (any introvert on here will recognize that language) and so ANY interaction with me causes her exhaustion when she needs the time to recharge. Sometimes she just wants me in the same room. But of course while I let her initiate the conversation most of the time I become very chatty.

In the car ride this morning we spoke about how we both love seeing green and trees and while moving won't fix things that being happy in the place you live is important. Neither of us really likes the sun here in Florida. We both like to be outside but we barely are outside because we are immediately drenched in sweat and my W deals with major migraines. But we cannot move immediately so we have time to further develop the counseling and hopefully in a few months we can see where we could be going. I still expect a least a year of real work on US.

My W. last night said I look good, I look younger like "you are looking like the old Tobias again". I look less stressed she says. Part of it is certainly compared to when I first got here (and the month before that) I AM more relaxed. I sleep better. Mostly it's because W and I are interacting better and we are going through counseling. I also heard that colleagues here want me to become department chair because they trust me. On the other hand, I think while my W has regained some of her respect for me that she still is working on that. Me giving her space, not always being in her face, not always needing communicating, not always needing to address a problem WHEN it happens rather than take a break has allowed her to relax a bit and notice that while I certainly am taking care of myself more in recent weeks that a lot of what she felt were reasons she was unhappy with me can be fixed.

Again if she is faking it. If she is just learning skills to be with the next person. If she is really not interested in staying with me beyond that now she can afford things on both of our salaries. The worst thing could be true BUT I have learned so much about what I needed to do. I love for her to remain in my life as my W but if not, someone else out there will appreciate it.

She is also working on her independence. She still needs to start driving lessons but the more independent she is the less trapped she will feel. Once that feeling is gone she will realize that while I may have said things and done things that gave her valid reasons to be scared that I am not some abusive controlling husband. On my part I am addressing the legitimate reasons she felt that way. I am comfortable saying in some ways I was a abusive controlling husband. I hate that it was that way but I no longer focus on my justifications and explanations that may be true but they shouldn't be present in a healthy relationship.

So in my IC on Saturday I am going to bring this all up (unless it comes up in the MC tonight) as there clearly is a link here with me being impatient.

[Tobias]

It's kind of appropriate this thread is nearly at 100.

I will try to keep it short (emphasis on try)

MC sessions went alright.
- W. brought up the fight from two days ago
- MC suggested we needed about six more weeks of MC and probably longer IC. When she asked how we felt my response was that the six weeks sound good but that probably we would need to assess if that is the right end period. W agreed and said that she still has fears and still has resentment to deal with (I saw that as a good sign. SHE brought it up to the MC so the fear she is faking it is diminished because obviously in the IC the counselor will discuss this with her and the worst that can happen is when she is over the resentment that she isn't in love. I would hate that but I can accept it...at least the counselor knows a big block.
- I brought up the wedding anniversary and when counselor prompted her W said she never had happy thoughts of this day (which I almost brought up her lovely smile and giggling during the actual vows...but she isn't wrong that we did fight that day so she is focusing on the bad)
- MC suggested that we can do something to create a new memory. W immediately said she loves that idea. MC said do something silly maybe a minion cake but then W said she also likes the idea of going over the top and dressing up nicely and going to a fancy restaurant (this tells me kind of she is actually trying and may actually still be in love but there are things we need to work on). MC said you could even pick a different day. It's funny my W suggested going over the top because I had a crazy idea to propose to her (I never actually did that) but I won't since it's too early. But I do wonder if maybe something like a promise will work but that doesn't sound right either. She needs actions not words.
- I told MC that the reason why I brought up the anniversary was because I missed so many big moments for my W where I thought I was there for her but now I recognize I messed up and I didn't want to add another.
- Counselor pointed out I still frame a lot of what I say with "she" and that I occasionally slip into rescuer mode. This is true. It's just this is how I have always operated.
- MC suggested that we work on a 24 page worksheet over these weeks and that part of that deals with self forgiveness. I told her that I can more easily forgive W but that forgiving myself is much harder as that seems too easy and while I have accepted that I made mistakes I rather focus on not adding new mistakes. She said that is very common. It's especially hard knowing that I was in many ways (I almost typed some...) controlling.
- Something interesting that I clearly don't have a context for because it happened in W's IC: MC said that W was worried about pursuing empowering things and that her independence would come at the cost of me. I had a similar fear that while I want my W to be independent and empowered that I did fear it would be closer for her to leave.

After the session we went to the same restaurant that we went to after the first counseling session. It's as if we are doing a new tradition which is good. My attempt has been to do new things with her that are enjoyable. So that when she thinks of topic x, y, z or situation a,b,c, that the latest data input has been joyous rather than what we have had in the past. Perhaps it's manipulative but my attempt is not to suddenly stop being nice.

- W brought up that she still has fears because in recent weeks I had explosive moments. So I sighed inside and brought up OM. I hadn't talked to her about him in a while. I told her to put herself in my shoes and think how she would if I had sex with a woman and she found out and was hurt by that how she would feel that I would still talk to her. She said that they don't talk that much (which really does seem true based on what I have seen at home..) and that he offered to leave her alone and that she needs to focus on working on herself. This made me reinforce that the more I don't give her space the less likely she will feel different.
- W brought up that the counselor saying six weeks felt a bit like pressure as if she had to make a choice. I told her, well she also said that we would visit twice a month for a bit and then once a month. She said she feels like things are nice now but we have a referee to sort of interfere when things would go out of hand and that we perhaps keep things inside. I told her but you aren't faking when you are showing affection to me right? She said no. So I told her that she has shown so much affection lately and that if I am keeping anything inside it's those thoughts that would normally occur and would cause an argument. Now I just try to be more patient and THINK before I speak. But her fear is still an issue. So six weeks is a pretty long time for me to be even more consistently calm.
- I spoke to my mom on Skype earlier that day and told W that they have a lot of love for her. Note: When I first told them my W wanted a divorce their first thought was OM. I didn't know she had one so I denied. It never came up again and I never felt it was important for my parents to know about this. Especially IF we recommit my parents need to not be an issue. But my W doesn't think so and said they call me a gold digging bitch. I said they never said that but clearly she is worried about how they perceive her.
- She said when my parents visited (they live abroad in the country I am from) she wasn't feeling well but also didn't expect to see them again and she didn't want to fake lovey dovey around them as she felt it would be disrespectful. This was in 2014 right after we bought the home. It's just amazing how I knew she wasn't happy but I never knew just HOW unhappy she was and she DID stay with me for a long time.
- The wedding anniversary came up and she said probably the breaking point was last year when it seems I didn't put any thought into it and just googled "six year wedding anniversary". I got her a silver necklace with a 6 and I knew she didn't like silver but I don't know why I went for it but I felt it would be funny. Reality is: I have always been worried about what to get her. Now I realize she is dropping a lot of hints and I just didn't listen. But I did put a lot of time looking for things.

So yes, similar obstacles: she is still afraid, she is working on her independence, she is addressing her depression and mood, she is working on dealing with colleagues. She says she isn't committed to saving the marriage (although she hasn't expressed those words in a while now....instead she says she still feels the same way and has fear) but her actions tell me a different thing. Affection isn't always coming from me first. She initiates a lot and she clearly is trying to do what the MC encourages us to do.

It almost seems as if she has slowly created this very dark image of what our M was like and she is slowly realizing it may have not been all that bad and that we actually CAN have a lot of fun and CAN work together and that she CAN have space and that I CAN be calm. The challenge is now switching to ONLY now and today rather than think back and think about missed opportunities. That is why I am glad she brought up resentment.

I remain hopeful but I cannot wait until W says she is recommitted. But her actions so far are more meaningful than her words. I also cannot wait to do a recommitment ceremony as I can then fully use my new found arsenal of being an amazing H. She sees a lot of pieces of what I can do and I have been very consistent. Like when I have left for a trip or she left I have done something to surprise her. None of it has been romantic but I have tried to do something meaningful and change it up. She has really loved all those moments (her love language is gifts).